My paizomate Kelsey feels like humans are head and tails better than all the other races. Well those are not her words, but that is what I got.
Seriously. You get a feat and extra skill points, two highly desired things, while everybody else gets a bonus to a skill, maybe enhanced vision, and a situational bonus or two. Oh, and you get to choose your stat bonus and lack a penalty. It's so blatantly superior that it isn't even funny.
Kelsey as a reformed powergamer I can tell you that dwarves and humans are about even.Darkvision is not a small thing unless your GM always lets you fight outside or assumes that if one person can see that everyone can see. That +2 to saves that dwarves get also comes in handy. Their penalty to charisma is to the most common dump stat anyway. The bonus stats are con and wis, which affect the two saves that if failed often get you killed or owned by the bad guy. I don't want to hi-jack Jame's thread but if you need convincing I can make another thread. As for the other races, they can be better depending on the class. Humans just happen to be the best at being adaptable to any one class.
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yea, but to balance the decentness that is dwarves (this brings em close to humans, not on par with) you have the stat penalty, the 20 foot movement speed, and the fact that you're a walking drunken stereotype.
I'd honestly say dwarves are about on par with humans if they had all the positives and none of the negatives. Thats the thing, humans don't have balancing drawbacks.
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Humans are like the jack of all trades because all their bonuses are so flexible, but some classes are better at some things than them. Elf wizards, magi and bomber-type alchemists, half-elf bards, dwarf monks to name a few.
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In 1st and 2nd edition playing a human sucked unless your DM enforced the level caps. But even then since it took so long to level most games were over before the level cap was ever reached. Most groups were composed of non-humans unless being human was required for the class.
In 3rd edition humans were suddenly useful again. The extra skill point and feat made them amazing. My groups were nearly all human and sometime were all human. Everybody wanted the extra feat and skill points.
Now in PF humans also get a floating +2 to any attribute. Sign me up!
Regarding dwarves. They are the most popular 2nd choice. I love them in games where darkvision is useful. Otherwise it is all human baby.
Would you trade a feat for toughness, darkvision, + 2 to almost all saves (easily +3 with Glory of Old trait) and the best racial feats in the game?
I think humans are the best all around race, but they are not so superior that they are well above the other races all the time which is how I read the response.
A dwarven fighter is very nice, since it is a +3 to will saves up front mitigating one of your main weaknesses.
By level 20 a human character can have an extra maxed out skill compared to any other race. The extra feat often means you can get to the end of a feat chain 2 levels early. It can mean an additional 2 traits.
For any class that has an associated "extra" feat (spell/hex/discovery/etc) it can be huge. The scenario that occurs to me given my current character is a witch translates to me starting the game with evil eye and cackle.
The no neg ability means you can pretty much leave things at 10 and not incur a negative bonus. If you have a MAD class this might not be optimal but negs aren't optimal either.
I don't always play wizards, but when I do, I play elves.
i like humans as PCs because they're less stereotyped than other races. seriously, they're the only race where saying 'i'm (race)' doesn't have built-in assumptions (well founded or not.)
Humans as Fighter characters have the largest boon you can really get at low levels and that is the extra feat. A first level human fighter has 3 feats. Which is a very nice start and 1 hp or 1sp each level is just an added bonus.
In my experience not much. The bonus feat and skill bump is just more measurable and a lot less circumstantial than many of the other racial abilities (hatred). I find that once a campaign gets started, humans are in no way superior to the other races and often times, it is those circumstantial bonuses that save the day, not the ability to have power attack AND cleave at level one.
Ferocity - The ability that keeps on giving.
Hafling luck and Hardy - Bonuses on saves, please give me these over a skill point.
Darkvision - Yeah it is easily replaced, but having it on all the time is nice.
Elven magic - SR is more of a hurdle than a wall anyway.
Keen senses - "What do you mean you can't see the rogue? Silly human".
Gnome magic - Illusions have never been so much fun.
Weapon Familiarity - Mostly the curved elven blade and the half orc weapons, but still very useful.
I would argue that humans are one of the weaker races, depending on the GM (like everything really). They are just so versatile, and that is why the get such a high stamp of approval. Humans are also my favorite race, for thematic reasons.
Before the APG and alternate class bonuses gnomes and halfings were arguably better sorcerers and likely better oracles as well. Now however with the ability to learn an additional spell with your favored class bonus being a human is heads and tails superior to the other two.
The extra feat gives you a nice headstart, and the extra skill is nice also, but they are not so good it is humans or bust.
The extra feat comes in play , and is hard to turn down for TWF or archery builds, but other than that I don't have a hard time, not picking a human.
Before the APG and alternate class bonuses gnomes and halfings were arguably better sorcerers and likely better oracles as well. Now however with the ability to learn an additional spell with your favored class bonus being a human is heads and tails superior to the other two.
Do any GMs even allow such broken abilities?
By level 20 a human character can have an extra maxed out skill compared to any other race. The extra feat often means you can get to the end of a feat chain 2 levels early. It can mean an additional 2 traits.
For any class that has an associated "extra" feat (spell/hex/discovery/etc) it can be huge. The scenario that occurs to me given my current character is a witch translates to me starting the game with evil eye and cackle.
The no neg ability means you can pretty much leave things at 10 and not incur a negative bonus. If you have a MAD class this might not be optimal but negs aren't optimal either.
This is pretty much my entire point.
I am seriously considering removing the floating +2 stat bonus for both humans and half-elfs, and making half-orcs more like the old 3.5 ones (keeping ferocity, but having fixed stat mods). I just think it is too easy now for everyone to start with a 20. But I am weird.
Master Arminas
Before the APG and alternate class bonuses gnomes and halfings were arguably better sorcerers and likely better oracles as well. Now however with the ability to learn an additional spell with your favored class bonus being a human is heads and tails superior to the other two.
I have a house rule that any race can choose favored class bonuses of any other race.
By level 20 a human character can have an extra maxed out skill compared to any other race. The extra feat often means you can get to the end of a feat chain 2 levels early. It can mean an additional 2 traits.
For any class that has an associated "extra" feat (spell/hex/discovery/etc) it can be huge. The scenario that occurs to me given my current character is a witch translates to me starting the game with evil eye and cackle.
The no neg ability means you can pretty much leave things at 10 and not incur a negative bonus. If you have a MAD class this might not be optimal but negs aren't optimal either.
Witches are the only class, I think, that can take Extra whatever at level 1. It's nice for full casters and full BAB classes. The others are locked out of most of the useful combat feats.
Witches are the only class, I think, that can take Extra whatever at level 1. It's nice for full casters and full BAB classes. The others are locked out of most of the useful combat feats.
Monk Really comes to mind here.
This is pretty much my entire point.By level 20 a human character can have an extra maxed out skill compared to any other race. The extra feat often means you can get to the end of a feat chain 2 levels early. It can mean an additional 2 traits.
For any class that has an associated "extra" feat (spell/hex/discovery/etc) it can be huge. The scenario that occurs to me given my current character is a witch translates to me starting the game with evil eye and cackle.
The no neg ability means you can pretty much leave things at 10 and not incur a negative bonus. If you have a MAD class this might not be optimal but negs aren't optimal either.
That does not make them significantly better.
The fact that your group chooses them may just mean they hate drawbacks.
The dwarf has speed of 20, and a -1 to all social skills due to his negative charisma, but his saves are better than a human.
The half elf gets a favored point if he multi-classes and gets other bonuses.
I have yet to see situation listed where a human was so much better that it actually matters at the table, beyond the player's ability to play the game.
You may not like the issue of always all human parties, but it is not a power issue, which it would be if they were really so much better.
I have a house rule that any race can choose favored class bonuses of any other race.
Humans get an alternate FC bonus for every class, but the other races don't. So you pretty much have to house-rule in something. And given how much better some bonuses are than others, you've probably got the right idea.
One wonders whether they just ran out of space.
I prefer half orcs with sacred tatoo for my alchemist bombers not elves thank you.
Creative Director
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I have a house rule that any race can choose favored class bonuses of any other race.
Humans get an alternate FC bonus for every class, but the other races don't. So you pretty much have to house-rule in something. And given how much better some bonuses are than others, you've probably got the right idea.
One wonders whether they just ran out of space.
The reason we didn't provide a FC bonus for every class for every race is because we wanted to try to retain the flavor for those races, and by only giving them FC bonuses for classes that matched that flavor, the idea was that would result in more characters of those specific classes for those races. We gave humans options for all the classes because adaptability is a huge part of the human race's theme in the game. Running out of space was not part of the decision.
In any event, I suspect there'll be a LOT more options for folks who are fans of other races in the upcoming Advanced Race Guide.
There are many times I'll take half elf over human. With the APG I can have one of the following: EWP, Skill Focus, Not Iron Will(that is Iron Will), in addition to low light vision, a bonus on perception checks, and some other useful nick-knacks (such as the ability to have two favored classes).
Half Orc is another I like taking -- I have darkvision, a +1 bonus on all my saves (APG) a possible natural attack, skill bonuses and depending on class some nice favored class bonuses as well (I really like half orc bomber alchemists), in addition to expanded weapon options for many of the medium BAB classes.
Dwarf is yet a third race I would still use regularly -- granted the base movement is twenty however it's never going to drop after that point, and medium armor is pretty common. If you are taking a class other than fighter that has heavy armor (or several of the fighter archetypes) this comes in real handy especially once haste and other movement bonuses start coming out.
Halfling also hits my list of easy to use races: Humans do have a better favored class bonus in many cases but the luck bonus combined with small size and better senses can be a huge boon, and the warslinger racial trait has seen a lot of use for some of my PCs/NPCs due to the fact that not everyone can use a bow.
I don't like gnomes as it stands now so I'm not going to comment on them and elves are something I haven't really used a lot -- they simply haven't fit for me recently.
It depends on how well your DM knows the vision rules, if he enforces them and if the game isn't always played during daylight, in sunlit rooms, etc. Because if you do follow them not having at least low light vision sucks big time, for example a rogue with no special vision and without the shadow strike feat can't sneak attack someone in a dark alley unless either the rogue or the target carry a light source.
Most other races have a feat equilevant, dwarves have +2 save against spells (3 feats but not so widely applicable as the feats), elves have spell penetration, half-elves have either skill focus or iron will or weapon prof (without pre-reqs), hafflings have +1 to all saves (3 half feats) and so on. Now only if half orc's orc ferocity gets changed to the regular orc ferocity (which is a feat, diehard) things would be better.
Vision is important at every level of the game. If GMs feel that humans' bonus feat and skills are overpowered, all they need to do is enforce the vision rules.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
Having been ambushed by drow and dark folk vision matters especially when only one side can really see the other side.
I got distracted.
Here is my point. If you take 4 classes using the human race, and run them through an AP, and you take those same 4 classes, use no humans and run them through the same AP the differences will be negligible, which is why I don't thinks humans are that much better.
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Vision is important at every level of the game. If GMs feel that humans' bonus feat and skills are overpowered, all they need to do is enforce the vision rules.In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
Man good thing I can't get darkvision through magic items, spells, class abilities or feats.
Oh wait...
Let's face it. That extra skill point and feat are damn hard to replicate. That being said Half Elves and Half Orcs are damn close.
Man good thing I can't get darkvision through magic items, spells, class abilities or feats.
Oh wait...
Let's face it. That extra skill point and feat are damn hard to replicate. That being said Half Elves and Half Orcs are damn close.
Of course -- if by pretty hard you mean remarkably easy.
Man good thing I can't get extra skill points or feats through magic items, spells, class abilities or favored class options.
Heck most the races have an ability that exactly mimics a feat but stacks with it as well.
I mean if you want to be a commoner sure human is the way to go.
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Man good thing I can't get darkvision through magic items, spells, class abilities or feats.
Oh wait...
Let's face it. That extra skill point and feat are damn hard to replicate. That being said Half Elves and Half Orcs are damn close.
Of course -- if by pretty hard you mean remarkably easy.
Man good thing I can't get extra skill points or feats through magic items, spells, class abilities or favored class options.
Heck most the races have an ability that exactly mimics a feat but stacks with it as well.
I mean if you want to be a commoner sure human is the way to go.
And humans can get those things too. That's kind of the point. And they don't fake the feats, they get them. Fake feats don't qualify except for very specific ones.
And you know what? That feat? Those skill points? They scale. It's already been mentioned that you can start your feat chains earlier giving you a two level jump on the next guy. You get twenty skill points, forty if you take the favored class bonus.
Keen senses stay +2, luck halfling stays +1, these bonuses never really go up. So after a few levels they only make a difference to the min maxers looking for small numbers to stack in a specific area.
That being said I still believe that half elves and half orcs are close. Very close.
The feat doesn't scale. It's a feat -- you get it that's it. The abilities from the feat might increase with level but the racial ability "feat" doesn't increase of its own simply from gaining levels.
The skill point does but the other races don't have to fake having darkvision or a luck bonus or a blanket save versus spells, spell like abilities and poisons, or a racial untyped bonus on spell penetration checks.
The human has to fake those things.
Basically everything you are saying about the human applies for the other races as well.
Half elves, Dwarves, and Humans are races I play.
The feat doesn't scale. It's a feat -- you get it that's it. The abilities from the feat might increase with level but the racial ability "feat" doesn't increase of its own simply from gaining levels.
No, but it gives you a two level advantage over every other race. That's meaningful when you start looking at long feat chains or specific feat combinations.
Keep in mind the only thing this argument is leading to is that there are no real differences between the races.
But, that feat's the deal breaker.
You can't fake an extra feat and to my knowledge there are few items out there that simply give it to you. And even in those cases I don't believe they let you qualify down a feat chain.
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Would you rather have a feat, or +2 to a stat that is usually not an essential stat to your class? Humans are far and away that much better. I've never been able to play a non human because the characters I play always end up needing more feats, sooner.
Half elves are possibly okay if you need either exotic weapon proficiency or skill focus, but how often do you really *need* those?
Humans are exactly one choosable feat better than any other race. Since so many feat-based abilities have a feat tax to start (e.g. precise shot/point blank shot) then for those builds (which is virtually all optimized builds) humans are not merely better, they are required.
But that's only if you have to be optimized.
Half elves are possibly okay if you need either exotic weapon proficiency or skill focus, but how often do you really *need* those?
Enough that I often pick a half elf over a human when messing with certain ideas. The last Magus I wrote up had to wield his Falcata Black Blade somehow.
Vision is important at every level of the game. If GMs feel that humans' bonus feat and skills are overpowered, all they need to do is enforce the vision rules.In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.Man good thing I can't get darkvision through magic items, spells, class abilities or feats.
Oh wait...
Let's face it. That extra skill point and feat are damn hard to replicate. That being said Half Elves and Half Orcs are damn close.
At low levels it is expensive and if you have the spell that is one less spell you have, and if the entire party needs the spell...
Even later on it is not assumed to be on hand. Maybe you are in the dark area for an extended benefit of time. Other things also come to mind, but since Kelsey is not defending her stance I am starting to think she understands gets point.
PS:I noticed she favorited this post, but she does not realize that nothing this does not make humans better. It simply means they get to spend money to get what someone else already has.
PS:I noticed she favorited this post, but she does not realize that nothing this does not make humans better. It simply means they get to spend money to get what someone else already has.
Bullseye lanterns are pretty cheap last I checked. My human paladin makes the gnome sorcerer carry it all the time.
Not that he really needs it with dancing lights, light, and other cantrips available at all times.
And in the end, you still can't buy yourself a feat slot at level one.
If you are allowed to claim there are items, class features, and spells can replace the other races features then I can just as validly point out that I can use items, class features and spells to replace the skill bonus and feat bonus that a human gets.
I can take a level in fighter to get a bonus feat -- there are also spells that share feats and skill bonuses, in addition to items that give out feats -- the question isn't can I replace a specific feat but can I replace the bonus feat ability with something else -- the answer is yes.
Either the racial abilities, the class features, the items or the spells can replace having a bonus feat.
Same with a bonus skill point.
That(the feat) is not scaling. It is a head start. As an example if I give you 500 gp more than another character at character creation that 500gp does not scale. It simply puts you 500 gp ahead.
Scaling means the value of it gets increases. It should also be noted the extra feat is not worth as much as higher levels.
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Low level characters can't do as much as higher level ones meaning that at low levels that extra feat means a lot more. That is balanced out however by the bonuses that other races get. At higher levels the human can more easily get access to thing to improved his vision or saves, but those are thing the other races already have, and due to class features and so on, along with feats of their own having 10 feats to someone else's 9, as an example does not mean as much because the other character has other things such as class abilities they can rely on.
In short race is not that big of deal as far as power is concerned as you level up, and it is a wash for the most part which is why I stand by my previous posts saying a group of humans, and a group of nonhumans will pretty much have the same difficulty completing the same quest.
PS:I noticed she favorited this post, but she does not realize that nothing this does not make humans better. It simply means they get to spend money to get what someone else already has.Bullseye lanterns are pretty cheap last I checked. My human paladin makes the gnome sorcerer carry it all the time.
Not that he really needs it with dancing lights, light, and other cantrips available at all times.
And in the end, you still can't buy yourself a feat slot at level one.
You can't buy darkvision at level 1 either. Or spell like abilities. Or luck bonuses, or move at full speed in heavy armor while carrying heavy encumbrance.
PS:I noticed she favorited this post, but she does not realize that nothing this does not make humans better. It simply means they get to spend money to get what someone else already has.Bullseye lanterns are pretty cheap last I checked. My human paladin makes the gnome sorcerer carry it all the time.
Not that he really needs it with dancing lights, light, and other cantrips available at all times.
And in the end, you still can't buy yourself a feat slot at level one.
I figured that would come up, and here is the issue. That big light you carry gives you away. Some creature with darkvision does not have to worry about that.
You might be able to see in the dark now, but the cantrip wont help you do so without being seen. Even low light can possibly give you an edge in distance when opposing someone.
That is why I brought up the ambush by drow and darkfolk earlier. I understand that not every fight is in the dark though.
Would you rather have a feat, or +2 to a stat that is usually not an essential stat to your class? Humans are far and away that much better. I've never been able to play a non human because the characters I play always end up needing more feats, sooner.
Half elves are possibly okay if you need either exotic weapon proficiency or skill focus, but how often do you really *need* those?
Why are you assuming the player is not choosing a race who stat synergies well, and if that is the issue then go with a half-orc or half-elf.
Before the APG and alternate class bonuses gnomes and halfings were arguably better sorcerers and likely better oracles as well. Now however with the ability to learn an additional spell with your favored class bonus being a human is heads and tails superior to the other two.Do any GMs even allow such broken abilities?
Well my GM does. Why would you say getting extra spells is broken?
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Humans are very good and are always an option I consider. Lately, I'm usually not playing them because I like playing around many of the stereotypes of other races, and there is something that mechanically also works.
For example, a half elf summoner makes sense. After all, who would need a not so imaginary friend more than a kid who is 'out of time' from their peers.
The race I'm seeing the least of is the elf, which makes me wonder if they aren't what half orcs and elves were in 3.5.