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This is all interesting material. Though it begs the question "where do all the thousands of souls who poor into the Hells come from?" they all can't be just worshipers of the Infernal lords because that just seems invalidate those devils who are coercing people to do evil acts. Not full conversions but doing evil seems like it should in some way effect you. Since any alignment could worship any god. If say your god was Lawful good and you were insidiously evil. He most likely doesn't want you even if you were a worshiper.

That is just my take on it though I was hoping to hear more opinions to corroborate or refute my thoughts on the whole thing.

So with the exception of clerics and other classes based on worship of a specific god what happens to the soul of a person when they die? What prompted this is I have a devil NPC in my game as well as a Mystic Theuge who worships Asmodeus. The player of the Mystic Theuge wants to know if his converting people to do evil gets them closer to going to the Hells upon death.

@Dennis- The thing is bows aren't on the even keel with every other weapon in the game in the least really. The amount of damage done by someone in melee out strips someone with a bow quite handily. Magical ammunition helps balance it considering that they are paying the cost of a +2 weapon to add a +1 bonus to their attacks. So unless your games treasure scale is way out of sync the person using the bow will almost always be behind in damage and money due to trying to compete.

I have always imagined they look like the two-handed swords used by Elrond's army at the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring.

Well it really depends on how much you want the side quest called being a good guy... Paladin is a great class and as a Dhampir would be greatly amusing and give a lot of room for backstory. IE The character is the descendent of a infamously vicious vampire and to make up in part for his ancestors past and current deeds your character became a Paladin.

Also Paladins don't have to be the thorn in the party's side he could be a semi subdued Paladin whose main issue is with the undead, Specifically vampires.

You do have to use the component since it does say it acts just like Animate dead. Though the fact of it is 25gp onyx per HD really isn't that bad. Getting to be able to summon undead that early is pretty big.

For that I would think you would depend if you were flying on the griffon or if you were riding it like a horse. Since that is the difference between those two feat lines really, flying vs running.

That does sound awesome!

In a game that I am in the Dm gave my character an item which he called a Whistling Spear. This was about a year ago though now I want to go get more due to their usefulness. I have been searching and I can't find it under that name at all I really don't know where he found it. The thing is that he doesn't either so I am here to see what you all think. Yes it could be a home brew item though he swears he got it from somewhere and I would like to find where.

It is a +1 Long Spear that does 1d6 sonic damage when used for melee. If thrown though the 1d6 becomes 2d6 sonic instead. Range 20ft if thrown.

Thanks for the help in advance. I do know it could be home brew and one easy answer to this is just have him make up a new price and all that though I would prefer to find it out there if it does exist.

Dismounting his with enemies that have reach weapons is a good option. Difficult terrain hampers him from charging though the thing is that will stop his main damage dealer though the fact is he is still getting a bonus to hitting the enemies on the ground since he is mounted. So even if you disrupt his charge you haven't invalidated with class concept.

With this non-cheese Ac are you saying no bizarre races in the new books like the Ratkin?

@Azten- Trying the be different? Or just wanting the kids to all attack you? lol

@Supreme- That isn't a bad idea if you gave a Rust Monster the advanced template so it might have some chance of actually doing a bit of damage.

@Narrater- I like it. It is a good way to make them use skills and at the same time have to think of ways to get around the situation.

I tried doing a combination of some of the this listed above in my game earlier this week though what I found out is that anything that is effecting saves that isn't solely focused on the Paladin, Soulknife, and RRM alienates the rest of the party almost completely.

Example: If I use a Dragon of appropriate CR the Rogue,and Word Sorcerer both flee from the dragon and it makes their character out of the combat basically.

Example I used Shining Children which are great creatures. Both times they attacked the party the Rogue was blinded and couldn't do a thing. Others were blinded as well which is the point though by the time the party gets the melee unblinded the Rogue gets forgotten.

Besides having the Rogue get a Cloak of Resistance any ideas how to continue to challenge the others while no alienating those with crap saves?

Very cool stuff everyone. Thanks for clearing that up. It definitely makes people with bows a whole hell of a lot more threat to my party now lol.

When you use a magic bow and magic arrows what bonuses get applied to the attack. Example: You have a +1 Flaming Burst Longbow and you fire out of it a +2 bane Cold Iron arrow. What I want to know is do they just not stack or what happens?

Anything with less than your full 0-9 level spell progression really gets shot in the foot hard when it comes to words of power. This is due to the fact to optimize yourself you often need to make words that are of higher spell levels. The same concept as with any metamagic. I love them they are amusing and not bad though the others above are right. Your base spells will be stronger though the thing about words of power is that your utility spells are better then what you will find in regular spells.

In the campaign I am running I have a Word Sorcerer in the party and his damage is decent though where he excels is the ability to on the fly make very unique utility spells.

Hands down it is very cool and fun though damage out put is going to be low. Though to this same thing you can make a lot of different spells that have no save to them.

I used to use a compilation of songs from video games to use for battle music. Stuff that ups the mood and makes the players get that fun rise like when the music picks up in a video game boss battle.

That is a fair point I will give that to Darigaaz. It would make more sense to add to your to hit after taking the feat to increase damage.

@leo1925- Well the thing is no matter how a player gets something they will in some way feel they earned it at least in some way. This come especially from gear. Lets say the party downs a dragon and gets the treasure. In this example the Dm messes up and gives them weapons or armor or something that is unbalancing. If the Dm at a later time says "Hey I am going to take away that gear you got because it is unbalancing." Yes some players may understand but all of them to some degree is going to feel your taking away what they fairly earned. It is just easier to let them keep their prize and fix things subtly. That way no one feels like their hard work gets eliminated because of a math mistake. This holds true of any situation of where you are taking something from the party that seems like this or a dues ex machina. Why not just let them keep it and fix the issue covertly. Unless it is really making other players feel as if they aren't being treated fairly.

@Petty Alchemy- A party of Neutral Cavaliers to challenge each party member away from the others could provide an interesting and testing combat. I like it.

Thanks again everyone. You have been most helpful. Sometimes you just run into the blocks where you are missing the obvious by being so close to it lol.

Deadly Aim is really needed to make archery competitive. Though the fact it exists is awesome one of the better feats in the game.

Every bow you have the main and backup should be composite and have a + strength equal to your normal strength modifier so that you are always doing +x damage a shot. You could even have another bow if you were feeling up to it with a + strength at whatever yours is when buffed with Bull's strength.

Though a word of warning Bull's strength won't stack with any other strength boosting item that gives an enhancement bonus (Belt of Giant strength and such).

With those two alone your damage should be going up by at least by +4 from the Deadly Aim. Though you may want to consider dropping Many shot in favor of either Leadership if you can make it work for your character or Weapon Focus due to the fact you are taking -2 to hit from the Deadly Aim at your BAB.

On the magic weapon I would suggest doing any of the +1d6 enchants out there. it really will boost your damage.

All in all though your best is swapping for Deadly Aim and getting your main and backup bow composite.

A cult here and there is a good incentive to keep moving and fighting or to be better about hiding you intentions. Al up to how the PCs read being jumped by cultists lol.

Humans as Fighter characters have the largest boon you can really get at low levels and that is the extra feat. A first level human fighter has 3 feats. Which is a very nice start and 1 hp or 1sp each level is just an added bonus.

That is understandable though if I am already fine on the front of no player disputes there is no sense is doing that. I am just going to wean them of it for a few levels and the issue will fix itself. Taking away stuff from players will almost 100% of the time make people upset. It is easier to background fix it than heavy-hand it and actually do anything like that. Just makes more sense to let them get hit by bigger things for some time till their gear isn't making them breeze through any longer.

On a 100% scale it most likely would look something like this.

Fighter 1-20
Cleric 21-31
Wizard 32-41
Rogue 42-52
Ranger 53-59
Barbarian 60-63
Monk 64-67
Bard 68-76
Druid 77-82
Paladin 83-90
Sorcerer 90-100

This is probably about how it would be having Rangers, Barbarians, Druids and Monks with the lowest percentage.

As far as the rules go it seems that summoned creatures are yours to do with whatever you want. Called ones that you are trying to bind or agree to severing you is a whole other matter and those are not bound to your will. As Lincoln Hills pointed out though they do remember what happened. So a summoned devil or demon will continue to live forever plotting your downfall if you were harsh to it. Or it truly might even if you weren't. That is one thing a Dm can use for more plot or side quests. Though if it does become a big deal the Dm can always make it so summon is more like calling them for a binding. Making you have to rp it out with the creature for aid.

Yep this is also why I asked the question above about if content was out for specific ones for Pathfinder. Kind of trying to trim down thematically what said Demon lord uses as a servant. For instance you have Jubilex who uses Omox demons. Not all of the lords have only one type of servant though was looking to thin it down some since with all the bestiaries and the Fiendish Folio there are a bunch. Themed minions just make more sense. Though that is not to say that Demon Lord X wouldn't have more than a handful of Quasits, Babau,and many thousands of Dretches as well. It is merely a nice assist if you can find something that leads you in a certain direction as a baseline.

Now I do have what I need to do that just have to wait for the pcs to get there. *Watches the clock evilly*

Well for one most people don't seem from my experience to know the armored kilt even exists. Though Atarlost is right in the fact that people really do only go for the top of a set. Fighters, Paladins, and other heavy armor wearers use fullplate over anything else in that category. Breastplate take over for your Barbarians, Clerics, and other classes who either don't have the proficiency for the heavier armor or it in some way is suboptimal as in the Barbarian losing fast movement. Then finally your light armor which is where most of your casters are if they even wear any at all.

The only time I have seen an armored kilt used was on a Gnome Sorcerer as a small boost to his abysmal Ac without taking the spell failure chance. It is a good item though as a whole really is lesser known and isn't the top rank kind of deal like the other that get chosen like they are going out of style.

@Irontruth- Yeah taking away the wealth seems a touch too mean lol. It isn't really their fault so no need to punish them. i can just adjust treasure for the next two levels to be minimal till it works itself out.

This whole issue in itself currently hasn't caused the worst problem and that would be the other players not having fun. So until that happens I am not desperately worried about it. More of a preemptive way to fix this before that happens.

Yeah I have learned that one from experience sadly. Especially with a paladin it becomes obvious after awhile that the party vs a BBEG ends with one near unharmed party and one very dead BBEG.

@Gishjunkie- The party has lost people over time and when that happens gear falls into the hands of the party that normally wouldn't. Though you have a valid point.

@Leo- Yes in a fullround attack just using the shield as AC the paladin swings at max 35 per hit. With three attacks per round. Wielding a +5 Holy Longsword (1d8+15+2d6). This is if the creature is evil though The party chipped in and got the Paladin a second weapon (+1 Brilliant axiomatic longsword). So even against no evil the paladin does significant damage. The character also has the Improved Critical feat with longswords. So This is where that damage is coming from.

@Irontruth- I forgot most of those spells don't have saves. I will have to use some of those.

@Leo- The damage the Paladin deals is up to a max of 105 a round without a single critical hit or even using smite. The damage is not really laughable considering the weapon used is holy so anything with DR x/Good is taking full damage.

@Hecknoshow- Their CMD's are all pretty good. Against a giant trying to grapple or disarm them maybe the paladin or RRM would fail though overall they all are quite shored up on defenses. See I have a hesitation on using dragons because i have actually about 0% luck at getting them to really make a difference against the party. If they are evil the paladin does double paladin level when smiting.

@voska66- That is a truly terrifying combat. That is along the lines of what I need though the BBEG having a literal swarm of bards is unlikely without a quite large explanation.

Though this is all really good stuff I will take into thought because I have been struggling on how to fix this issue for six or so months. To do a small recap of ideas.
*Invisible opponents
*Touch Attacks
*Antipaladins
*Terrain
*Minions

I have been debating using more combat maneuvers against them though the trick is that the two of them (Paladin and RRM) are quite tough to use maneuvers on considering one has a lot of strength and the other is completely Dex based. Stopping the RRM is a matter of invisible opponents and darkness which Joyd suggested.

Fair enough that makes perfect sense now when you mention the Stalwart defenders ability and the Stand Still feat. Thanks for the help muchly appreciated.

Okay so the part about other combat maneuvers is right kind of lol. Though I guess I have just been wrong about movement. It does make more sense that they wouldn't stop moving if hit with an Aoo.

Yeah I am sure. I always played even in 3.5 that when something causes an Attack of opportunity it ends the movement, grapple, or whatever triggered it. Which now seems silly since I cannot for the life of me find any reference to that anywhere.

@Leo1925- Yes the Paladin is sword and board. The Soulknife is melee and has a cohort who heals and the Inquisitor is melee though defers to spells for buffs and debuffs often and has a wizard cohort himself. The thing is my party has A LOT of melee characters.

@ I'M INCREDIBLE!- That is a good idea.

Flying creatures are something that has stumped them in the past though flying creatures that are strong enough to challenge them is the trick.

As a DM with a party in which two of the PCs have cohorts I can atest to the fact of the DM having to bump the combat up to try and balance due to the large number of characters. my suggestion if you are going to take leadership is do make a healing cleric or a buffer of some sort because they are less likely do die due to being in front. Having a rogue isn't a bad option either though if a trap goes badly you may well lose your cohort if it was a trap set up for a character your level.

Overall though a support character of some kind is usually your best bet due to the fact that the buffs of your cohort are only two levels under what another PC could do so it is a very nice addition to the group. Though do be warned it does tend to bog things down since it is like having a whole other character.

See the thing is that when it does come down to encounters the paladin and the other two are still incredibly hard to hit. As well as the fact that the paladin is still swinging up to 105 damage without a single critical hit or even using smite evil.

I have scoured the Pathfinder core book and 3.5 and I can't find that rule anywhere. So have I been doing this wrong or am I just missing something?

I have a party of six level 12 characters. The party make up is a Paladin, an Archer Rogue, a Word Sorcerer, a Soulknife, an Inquisitor and a dodge tank made up of Ranger 9, Rogue 2, Monk 1. I am currently having trouble trying to find types of combats to challenge them. It is not enough of a challenge because the Paladin isn't even having to use smite evil in epic level CR combats for the party.

The paladin has a Cloak of minor displacement and a 34 Ac which make it incredibly hard to hit. The character is doing 25-30 per swing and that is without critically or using smite evil. So what I want to know is if anyone has suggestions on how to stop such a character. High AC, High Saves, Swift action self heals, Highest damage dealer in the party.

Currently I don't think it is a problem that is making the game not fun for the other players though it is hard to find combats that do any damage to the Paladin, Dodge Tank, or Soulknife. All of their ACs are over 30.

So my question is does anyone have some advice on how to challenge these characters without blasting the Rogue, Sorcerer, and Inquisitor into a million pieces?

I have for awhile now been playing in my game the rule that attacks of opportunity stop movement of of the creature that got hit or stops the grapple or whatever was attempted. Though I just added a new played to my game that had never heard that before despite being a 3.5 player before as well.

So what I want to know is do attacks of opportunity stop movement or other actions that provoked them or not? In 3.5 I could swear they did though I am not sure.

I have a copy of Fiendish Codex I that I am going to be using for some of the stuff though what prompted me to come and ask the question was that it seems to me, that the CR's especially of evil creatures when fighting a Paladin are hard to judge considering how much better they are at the job of destroying evil they are. It very well could be me just not gauging things right though it seems as if an evil opponent against a Paladin is proportionally 1-2 CR's lower of a combat for the whole party.

@Lincoln Hills- I have been debating that for awhile actually since the Daemons came out in Bestiary 2. Though my reservations on that is that introducing other groups is a decently large undertaking. They are all decently specific in what they are out to achieve and adding in another group of baddies gets very complicated. Currently they are in an area based roughly off of "The Demon Within" game module. Published by Paizo. Which has given me lots of Demons and options as well as a gate that the party has decided they want to close. So that is why I wanted to use Demon lords.

Thank you for the help everyone. Its appreciated.

They are currently 15th level and I have a large string of other things on hand for them to complete. Ie side quests to gather allies and what not. I just wanted to offhandedly have this information or know where to find it for when they do. If they are planning on attacking the Abyss with an army they most likely would run into servants of say one of the minor lords on the fist layer of the Abyss that wants to bust up their plan before Paladins and what not are knocking on their door.

I have been running a game for a year and a half now. My party is getting toward the point of wanting to smash bigger beings such as Demon lords and the like. The way things are they are poised to gather a bunch of Paladins and assault the Abyss... So what I wanted to know is if anyone had some advice about where I can find material about Pathfinders Abyss and Demon lords. I am not sure if it even exists yet.