Hello everyone!
I first want to say that I'm enjoying Pathfinder and the community here, even though this is my first post. I'm also a complete newbie to both DMing and tabletop RPGs in general. Thank you for taking the time to read this thread.
Please feel free to skip ahead if you don't want to read the backstory.
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My group is 3 men, 3 women. It creates some interesting team dynamics.
As a brief backstory, I started DMing "cold turkey" roughly two months ago. I had a handful of friends that were always interested in tabletop gaming and the consensus was that I would be the best for DM duties. I bought a few sets of dice and I began studying the core rulebook. My group has progressed from the beginner Falcon's Hollow disease module to the Crown of the Kobold King.
Nobody at the group has had any experience with any tabletop RPGs.
We set up our first day with the game and could barely begin playing. It took literally 4 hours for everyone to make their characters, with one person using a computer and the others juggling a laptop with the Paizo website. Even though I knew the basics for creating characters, it's still a time consuming process when everyone else does not.
I haven't strayed too far from the formulas of the quest modules, although I did experiment with one game session. It consisted entirely of custom content I created and went really well. I don't plan on doing that too often, since it takes so long to set it up... on top of figuring out the basic rules. I could type all day, but I'll get to the more important things.
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*potential Crown of the Kobold King spoilers*
My group consists of the following members (all level 2):
Fighter
Monk
Rogue
Ranger
Druid
Sorcerer
They're coming up on two enemies with DR/Magic. One is the giant slug creature, and the other is a gargoyle. I don't know if our two casters can handle it, and I think the Fighter has a +1 weapon (which can hit magically because it's +1?). The Vargouille might clean house too, with it's disease. The forgespurned has a +10 on his chain-of-death, which can oneshot most of the group on a cluster of high rolls. Should I nerf these?
Speaking of nerfing, how do you guys deal with death? I want to provide a challenge with the occasional risk of death without killing people. A TPK would also be horrible, since we don't have the experience to simply cook up another character on the fly. The night where a character dies is going to be a traumatic one.
I don't know the rules, but I was thinking of possible resurrections in town depending on the condition of the corpse. Maybe a formula of 1000 + character level x 100 = gold cost for resurrection. This means a level 5 character would need 1500 gold to be brought back. I want the cost to be large enough to ensure people don't suicide due to cheap res costs.
On the topic of keeping people interested, how would you guys do it? Everyone is having a great time, but occasionally I hear "I wish I didn't take this skill..." or "I feel useless" because the quests don't use the options they chose. The people who specialized in really common things like Perception are getting way more out of the game than people who invested in Swim. Yay, Swim... Woooo....
I have so many stories I could type, and lots of little questions... but I'll leave it at this for now.
Firstly, welcome to the fold!
You're asking a lot of questions, which is good. You should have a lot of questions. It can all be a little daunting at first, especially when you're going through the character creation process with 6 newbies. I don't envy you that at all. It's very time consuming, as I'm sure you now know, but you just have to get through it. I will just address one of your questions, and I'm sure a denizen of other answers will follow.
On the topic of keeping people interested, how would you guys do it? Everyone is having a great time, but occasionally I hear "I wish I didn't take this skill..." or "I feel useless" because the quests don't use the options they chose. The people who specialized in really common things like Perception are getting way more out of the game than people who invested in Swim. Yay, Swim... Woooo....
There are two answers to this. One: Allow your players to change their minds. When a person is starting out in this game, they really have no idea about the consequences of character creation. Don't punish them for experimenting, just let them move those skill points around for the first few sessions, at least until you're all comfortable with the characters you've created. Or, alternatively, your second option is to tailor your challenges to the player's skills. Obviously you're not going to be able to remember every single skill rank all six of your characters have taken, but keep a couple of their strengths in mind. That guy who 'wasted' his points in Swim will suddenly seem a lot more useful when the levee breaks.
If you are worried about them punching the DR you could always swap out some treasure for an oil or two of magic weapon in the fight prior (50gp a pop). I wouldn't have enough for everyone but one or two should do just fine. Just remember that DR is a major part of these monsters defenses.
To deal with death the cost already worked into the game is enough into the game and I think that the PFS rules work well as a general starting point. Basically for every town with 5,000 people or more you can buy spellcasting services up to 6th level spells. Raise dead is a 5th level spell and it costs 5,450 if this seems too much feel free to readjust, but you seem to not want to undermine death so my advice is to keep it as is. The other thing is that raise dead is bestowing two permanant negative levels. Again to pay for these to be removed one would have to pay for two restoration spells costing a total of 2,760 (1,380 for each casting).
On the topic of keeping people interested the above poster has the right idea, allow new players to experiment without fear of consequence. Also many of the posts in This thread may be helpful in keeping your players interested.
Hope this helps.
I don't know the rules, but I was thinking of possible resurrections in town depending on the condition of the corpse. Maybe a formula of 1000 + character level x 100 = gold cost for resurrection. This means a level 5 character would need 1500 gold to be brought back. I want the cost to be large enough to ensure people don't suicide due to cheap res costs.
There are already a few spells to bring characters back to life, but they are MUCH more expensive than this. I would be very wary of creating this houserule if I were you. I feel I should warn you that this amount of money will be barely spare change to a higher level character, or even to a level 2 character for that matter. It will render 'raise dead' spells completely redundant, and it will make your players feel like death is almost inconsequential. If that's the way you want your fantasy, then that's fine, but personally I prefer a much grittier game. I have been roleplaying just about every weekend for 15 years, and in all that time, after probably something like 100 character deaths, I have never seen a SINGLE character resurrected. And nobody has ever complained about it.
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I made this Self-Evaluation form for a new GM in our group.
Three major things to remember:
1) Play to your strengths. If you are aware of your strengths you can focus on the parts of the scenario that you can run the best.
2) Always remember that the PCs are your heroes. It is easy to get caught up in the cool NPCs that you make or that are in the adventure, but try not to overshadow the PCs. The NPCs are there to help tell the story, but not your stars.
3) Be aware of your players. Not just how they act/react, but mainly what they find fun. Try to include a part for each player to excel.
Other than that, have fun! That's what you all are playing for!
I hope this helps!
Remember, nothing scares players more than level draining undead and rust monsters. Combine the two and they'll never sleep again.
Welcome, and congratulations to your DMing. When just starting out, there are some things to keep in mind:
You are going to miss things, and you are going to do it wrong. When it happens, remember that you are all friends, and that it is okay to make mistakes. Your players obviously trust you, and there is no Pathfinder rules lawyer strike team that will beat down your door.
Making characters takes time. If it is the first time, or you need a replacement character, Crown of the Kobold King has pregenerated characters. If they need to be level 2, it is always easier to level a character up by taking another level of the same class. Also understand that reskinning is your friend. If you want a sorcerer character, but don't want to play a varisian female, Seoni can become Soren, the chelaxian (another kind of human) male sorcerer, or, by modifying for race, Surda, the female halfling sorcerer. Point is, stats are not that hard to come by until you learn by playing what you want to try.
Until you have a good undestanding of the basic rule set, allow people to change their skills, feats, spells or whatever, just let it happen between sessions. The only thing you do not want is for them to change things against a specific enemy or problem. Once they know better, start demanding a reason for the change and allow it if it sounds at all reasonable. Typically, people read something and think it will be awesome, but when they try to use it in play, it stinks, or they find they never use something. Another point to this is specialization, as you have noticed. The game does reward specializing, up to a point. Do it too far, though, and it acts against you instead, because you lock yourself into very specific tactics.
Regarding death, there are two phases of the game. Before level 9, when raise dead becomes available, it is my experience that few if any PCs get raised from death. Once you get that spell, everyone does if there isn't a reason not to. There is a specific reason for this. Paying for the spell if someone else casts it is very expensive, so expensive that your character's equipment gets shafted. There is an assumption in the game about how much gear a character of a certain level should have, and a Wealth by level chart. Dig it up and take a look at it. After a raise dead spell, your character is far weaker than the others, because equipment gives a lot of power to characters. By level 9, you can cast the spell yourself, and the cost is not all that big any longer. Compare it to creating a new character at the appropriate level, with Wealth by level appropriate starting gear, and you will understand. There is a whole other consideration here too. You don't want to cheapen death by creating an assumption that it is okay to die. At the very least, you should get to make a new character. If nothing else, it teaches you how to do it fast. Also, see reskinning above.
For monsters, I say keep them as is. Let them try to fight, and if they can just attempt to run away to fight another day, it is okay. The gargoyle flies, which makes it more dangerous, but have it call off pursuit quickly. Let them find out what DR means in practice and they will try to prepare for it better. The forge spurned is a VERY dangerous enemy, and could well stand to be nerfed a bit. The vargouille has rather few hp, and will likely go down quite easily. Remember that while your players are newbies, their characters might have Knowledge skills that they should get to use to get information about critters. Each type of critter has a specific Knowledge skill, for example gelatinous cube would be dungeoneering. With a good roll, tell them some things they might know about it (don't let the flying head kiss you!), so they can adjust their tactics accordingly.
Sorry for the wall of text. If you consider this helpful, I will be happy to answer more questions, as I am sure others will too.
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Remember, nothing scares players more than level draining undead and rust monsters. Combine the two and they'll never sleep again.
A vampire or spectre rust monster? Now why didn't I think of that?
You have a lot of good advice here. My personal favorites (I'm doubling up a little here with some other people here, but I think linear...so sue me.):
1. "IF you aren't having fun, you are doing something wrong." The #1 rule of gaming. And that goes for you as well as your players. If you don't like a rule, throw it out. (We don't do attacks of opportunities in my games, for example - because I feel it breaks up the flow of combat, and turns the game into a chessmatch. My PC's love it, because they can act naturally and blah blah blah. Another example: I don't do a critical fumble when they roll a one. I feel like automatically failing an attack is enough of a penalty, without breaking your weapon. And so on...)
Lay down the law the way you want to (after having an understanding of what you want, for example.) But the method of laying down the law isn't "Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up!" (+2 morale bonus for Army of Darkness quote!) Instead, be very clear with them what you expect from them as players, and let them know when they hit that for you, you intend on rewarding them richly.
Example: I had a player that wanted to run out into a clearing being watched by archers, jump across a small stream, sprint 40 more yards and "baseball slide" behind a log for cover. He went for it, made all the appropriate rolls, and dodged two arrows in the process it. As a bonus I gave him an action point, and one of the henchman freaked out and ran away. When it was the "boss'" turn, he yelled out loudly "Nobody runs away from me!" and then proceded to throw a knife in the characters back, knocking him into the campfire he was next to, and killing him.
I made all that up on the spot, on reaction to a very cool maneuver my PC did.
So, the long and short of it is... Understand the rules, throw out what you don't like (but make sure it is balanced or your PC's will stomp all over you, which won't be fun for them after a while), make sure they understand what you want, and what they can receive for it, and then just go crazy.
As far as death goes, I just leave it up to the dice. You NEVER EVER EVER want a TPK (total party kill) unless you have all decided to move on to a different campaign or something. TPK's kill the entire story in most cases.
Player deaths are a big deal, but not if you handle it the right way.
I tell my PC's that I want to challenge them, and that if they are walking through every fight they ever have like it's no sweat, what fun would that be? So I tell them I am going to be fair, and just as I expect them to not cheat, I am going to honor my rolls. I'm not going to say "hit" when it wasn't or that the guy made a bluff check when he didn't etc. The flip side of that is that you are going to get the occasional 20 rolled against you at the wrong time. Have a backup character in mind, just in case. It isn't anything personal, just a part of the game. Sometimes you sink the 8 ball before the others go in, it just happens.
I told my pc's just this week, that it wasn't my job to protect them, and that things were going to be getting harder from here on out (they have a tendency to take on fights 3 levels above their own) and that they are responsable for not running away from any fight they can't win.
IF the players have an idea or two tucked away (NOT statted out, as this may cause wanderlust too often in a player), for a rainy day or a rain of arrows, then when it comes their time they roll up a new guy, and you think of a really cool way to bring them in along with the player. (as quickly as they are ready, normally, being feasible.)
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They're coming up on two enemies with DR/Magic. One is the giant slug creature, and the other is a gargoyle. I don't know if our two casters can handle it, and I think the Fighter has a +1 weapon (which can hit magically because it's +1?). The Vargouille might clean house too, with it's disease. The forgespurned has a +10 on his chain-of-death, which can oneshot most of the group on a cluster of high rolls. Should I nerf these?
Speaking of nerfing, how do you guys deal with death? I want to provide a challenge with the occasional risk of death without killing people. A TPK would also be horrible, since we don't have the experience to simply cook up another character on the fly. The night where a character dies is going to be a traumatic one.
I don't know the rules, but I was thinking of possible resurrections in town depending on the condition of the corpse. Maybe a formula of 1000 + character level x 100 = gold cost for resurrection. This means a level 5 character would need 1500 gold to be brought back. I want the cost to be large enough to ensure people don't suicide due to cheap res costs.
On the topic of keeping people interested, how would you guys do it? Everyone is having a great time, but occasionally I hear "I wish I didn't take this skill..." or "I feel useless" because the quests don't use the options they chose. The people who specialized in really common things like Perception are getting way more out of the game than people who invested in Swim. Yay, Swim... Woooo....
I have so many stories I could type, and lots of little questions... but I'll leave it at this for now.
Some of these are simple. DR does not affect your casters. Damage reduction is for melee damage, and non-magical damage. Resistances (i.e.: Fire resistance 10) is what affects spells. So, if your melee characters have magical weapons, even just a +1, they will bypass the DR/magic.
Remember, diseases have an incubation time, and a frequency that they affect the character. Between these two things, they usually won't dampen the party too much, as they can recover from them relatively quickly if they have a healer who can remove disease, or are close to any kind of town or village with a healer in it.
As far as death, the price for resurrections varies on the spell used. They can be pricey though. The price for spellcasting does have a formula, and this works for resurrections as well, that formula is Caster level (of the one casting the spell) x spell level x 10 gp plus whatever the cost of material component is. If the spell does not include a material component price, than you can ignore it. Thus, the base price of a resurrection, using the earliest available resurrection spell (Raise Dead, Cleric 5), would be (8x5x10)+5,000=5,400 gp. That's 8th level caster (earliest a cleric can cast level 5 spells), the spell being level five, and the spell requiring a diamond worth 5,000 gp.
A cheaper way to bring back a dead party member would be the Druid's Reincarnate, druids get this as a 4th level spell, meaning the lowest caster level will be 6th. And this spell only requires 1,000 gp in material components (oils). This puts the spell cost for reincarnate at (6x4x10)+1,000=1,240 gp. However, your player will be finding himself in a new body.
Many GM's use a house rule known as god calls. If the character has a deity that they honestly follow and worship, they can attempt a god call to not die (usually leaving them at 0 hp and unconscious). Generally, this is a flat 10% chance, some do higher chance for divine casters, or even 10% +2% per character level.
As far as hearing the random complaint about not being able to use a skill or class option choice, as the GM, start making sure that the skill or ability will be necessary or at least an option to get past certain challenges. Another option is, when they gain a potent level (5,10, 15, 20, etc.) let them make minor changes to what they have chosen perhaps. Its something used in the Dresden Files RPG that I do like. At certain character advancements, you have the option of changing minor things on your character. Not overboard, you can swap out one skill or perk/power.
Don't be afraid to ask your players what they would like to play through. Its not bad GM'ing to take into consideration what your players like or are interested in. :P
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Oh, and since they are new players just as you are a new GM, don't be too worried about things as of yet. Remember this, there are always options. More than one skill could be used to solve any problem, as well as combinations of skills and team work. Don't be afraid to give hints or suggestions of skills or whatnot to them, as they are new to rpg's.
This will also get them started on the "thinking outside the box" path. Which is always good for players and GM's alike!
Stock up on snacks for your game!
They're coming up on two enemies with DR/Magic. One is the giant slug creature, and the other is a gargoyle. I don't know if our two casters can handle it, and I think the Fighter has a +1 weapon (which can hit magically because it's +1?). The Vargouille might clean house too, with it's disease. The forgespurned has a +10 on his chain-of-death, which can oneshot most of the group on a cluster of high rolls. Should I nerf these?
Probably not. What's the CR of the encounter? Your group can usually take out a CR 4 with no sweat and can probably take out a CR 7 or 8 without a death.
Speaking of nerfing, how do you guys deal with death? I want to provide a challenge with the occasional risk of death without killing people. A TPK would also be horrible, since we don't have the experience to simply cook up another character on the fly. The night where a character dies is going to be a traumatic one.
A goal I have with players is to get them interested in their character *but not married to it*. Part of the D&D/PF learning experience is to know when to run away. Sometimes you need to run away. If a character dies, it usually teaches this valuable lesson.
On the topic of keeping people interested, how would you guys do it? Everyone is having a great time, but occasionally I hear "I wish I didn't take this skill..." or "I feel useless" because the quests don't use the options they chose. The people who specialized in really common things like Perception are getting way more out of the game than people who invested in Swim. Yay, Swim... Woooo....
That's why death isn't necessarily a penalty. It allows you to try out a new character with different skills (: Swim is a skill that everyone wishes they have when they need it. It's especially important for the heavily armored guys who usually have a high armor check penalty and can't make a DC 10 swim check on a natural 20.
As for player death . . . always consider reincarnate as a cheap option. The group I have played with roles their eyes when they know that I pull out a druid or nature priest after one of the party has died. I have a random chart that has all intelligent humanoid shaped races. Not everyone loves the idea but it really becomes part of the fun. This is sometimes a great way to change up a character that wants to tweak things verses start from scratch.
Welcome to the boards and to the fine art of GMing.
First, know that it is not necessary to get everything right. Fun is the order of the day. I've been GMing for 35 years and my players remind me of rules all the time. The point is to keep things moving.
Tell your players up front what sort of game you intend to run. I like big epic stories with little attention to gritty details, and I make sure they all know that.
As for raising dead at lower levels, I completely agree that you should be wary of reducing costs. It will bite you later. Instead, consider taking the opportunity to tie the PC's into local power structures. An important local power group (anything from a friendly temple to a sinister thieve's guild) can agree to foot the bill for a raise dead provided that the entire party agrees to perform some difficult task ( or agree to some future service). This gives the players their PC back and also firmly seats them in your game world while also allowing you to set up an adventure without the stereotypical mysterious stranger in the tavern.
On the topic of keeping people interested the above poster has the right idea, allow new players to experiment without fear of consequence.
Heh, I've never seen/heard this before. In fact, in every introductory game of D&D/PF I've ever seen, part of the fun is dealing with the consequences of actions.
For instance, in one of my first games, I played a dwarf fighter with a battering ram. Our party was in a gloomy Gothic cemetery with a gigantic iron gate standing in our way. We had been trying to be as quiet as possible in the cemetery because we knew it was haunted. Being the new player I was, I figured I could knock down the gate with my handy battering ram. So when I failed, I had to deal with the following consequences:
* The battering ram made a tremendous noise in the deathly quiet cemetery.
* The gate did not open.
* The cemetery's large number of zombies all came directly in our direction.
* The wight we were supposed to fight independently of the zombies came running as well.
* The fight was quite difficult and we had multiple people in the party with negative levels.
* We barely survived.
* It was one of the most enjoyable and memorable D&D encounters I've ever had.
I'm sure if I could do whatever I wanted without consequences, I probably wouldn't have experienced this.
Remember that CR is just a guideline. Run through tough encounters as a thought-experiment before running the real thing, this will help your party in the edge-cases where CR fails. This will always produce a better balanced encounter than blind reliance on CR.
Include creatures that are much higher CR than the players from time to time, but make it clear to them early and often that they ought to run away from some things. Make sure they understand that the world is not built to be defeated by them.
As a GM, I usually aim for almost killing the players when I design encounters. Once the encounter is designed, I try to be as impartial as possible — not acting to save the players but also not exploiting the rules to kill them beyond the ability of the enemy NPCs.
Sometimes, my player characters die. It's hard the first few times, but once you get through it, it greatly enhances the game experience. Higher stakes make each deadly encounter mean more. If you can't bring yourself kill PCs it early in the campaign, it will only get harder and harder. If one or two die early on, the whole tone of the campaign changes.
I allow resurrection as per the RAW (a common acronym for "rules as written") but I make it a side-quest at least to find the caster. It may seem cruel to make it so expensive and difficult, but these options become available only to people who have put a long term effort into PCs. However, most times, even my high level PCs choose to remain dead. I like to think this is because they enjoyed the epic death they suffered.
It's okay to avoid death for your first campaign if it makes you uncomfortable, but over time it becomes a necessary ingredient. The risk is compelling once you acquire a taste for it. If you avoid death in your first campaign, consider starting your second campaign by announcing: "The training wheels are off. Some of your PCs will die. Don't make it senseless. Run if you have to."
It took me about 15 years to develop these preferences, so it may be you are not ready. But if anything I wrote above makes sense, I encourage you to push forward. Let a PC die before 4th level, and make a big freaking deal of it.
They're coming up on two enemies with DR/Magic. One is the giant slug creature, and the other is a gargoyle. I don't know if our two casters can handle it, and I think the Fighter has a +1 weapon (which can hit magically because it's +1?).
First up, welcome to the hobby. There is no escape. <Grin>
You probably figured it out, but it can't hurt to go over the rules just in case. DR will come with a number. In the gargoyle's case it's DR10/magic. That means weapons that are non-magical do 10 less damage than usual. Your fighter and rogue might still get through on good dice rolls, depending on their weapon choices. What I mean is that if the fighter has a greatsword (2d6) and say... a +4 strength modifier, if he's two-handing he could do anywhere from 8 damage (snake eyes plus 6) to 18 damage (two sixes plus 6). If he rolls 18, after the DR he's still dishing out 8 damage.
Also, when it comes to DR, know that it only applies to weapons. Spells don't count. So the sorcerer should still be able to do full damage. The druid should contribute nicely with controlling spells like entangle.
The gargoyle is CR4, which is meant to be a hard fight for 2nd level characters. It should be somewhat dangerous, but you do have six PCs. That many characters should probably win, if they play smart.
The Vargouille might clean house too, with it's disease.
Your players should know that the Knowledge skills are probably the most useful in the game. One good roll on Knowledge(planes) and the party should learn enough about this creature to know that if anyone gets paralyzed, they MUST be protected. If the rest of the party readies their actions to beat the snot out of it if it flies in, they'll probably kill it in one round.
Without Knowledge, they're going to suffer. But that's part of the game.
The forgespurned has a +10 on his chain-of-death, which can oneshot most of the group on a cluster of high rolls. Should I nerf these?
I'm not at home to review the stats on this monster, but in general I'd say don't nerf these.
My big suggestion is to discuss with your players that you're on a learning game right now. Hopefully you can convince them to not get too attached to characters just yet. Knowing how to use the rules effectively is HUGE. I'd suggest playing stuff out as written if its CR is up to one or two higher than the party's level. If someone dies, have a post-mortem after the game and try to figure out what they could have done to prevent the death. That research will teach more about the game. The Core is a huge book. There's LOTS there, and you can't learn it just reading cover-to-cover. If you can agree to play trial & error game, it'll go over smoother.
Speaking of nerfing, how do you guys deal with death? I want to provide a challenge with the occasional risk of death without killing people. A TPK would also be horrible, since we don't have the experience to simply cook up another character on the fly. The night where a character dies is going to be a traumatic one.
Death happens. Especially at low level. Seriously. I wouldn't pull any resurrections for another few levels. Really, if it's possible to bring the dead back at the income level of 2nd level adventurers, why doesn't everyone get brought back?
It might be worthwhile to stat out a backup character (or two). Write up a cleric and a wizard maybe. If someone dies, introduce the replacement for the night so your player can keep doing something... learning something new even. I suggest copy/pasting major abilities onto the character sheet, so the rules are right there. All of my groups use monster statblock style character sheets, not the fill-in-the-blanks sheets.
On the topic of keeping people interested, how would you guys do it? Everyone is having a great time, but occasionally I hear "I wish I didn't take this skill..." or "I feel useless" because the quests don't use the options they chose. The people who specialized in really common things like Perception are getting way more out of the game than people who invested in Swim. Yay, Swim... Woooo....
A lot of skills are conditional. Sure, Perception is used often, and it's important. Swim is conditional but when you need it, you need it. Knowledge is huge in my opinion. Spellcraft is really useful against anything that casts spells, so you know what they're doing and how to counter it. Diplomacy is great for role-play encounters. Disable Device is good but situational. The rest are very situational, which is normal.
Again, you're all learning. You don't have the system mastery to be able to advise your players "look, Perform(whatever) is almost never used in this adventure."
I suggest working out retraining rules. One way that works is this:
Every time you gain a level, you can change one feat choice you've made previously. You can re-allocate one level worth of skill points. A spell choice. A rogue talent or rage power. Basically let your players revisit one level worth of choices and make some changes. Don't let them re-pick everything generally, and make sure the result is still legal. (Don't let them lose a feat that is a pre-requisite for something they keep.)
This will let your players adjust things slowly, as they learn how and when things are used.
Anyway, again, welcome, and keep on asking.
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On character death:
My group of friends had a lot of DMs. And none of them decided to ever, EVER let characters die. Each one saved by DM fiat.
And then started DMing. I told players: You'll die in my game. I'm rolling out in the open. And died they did. I had about 100 character deaths in 4 years.
Surprisingly, the characters loved it. It gave them a chance to try things out and learn the game. By the end they really knew how and what they wanted to play, and all thanks to me letting characters die.
Just let them know it could happen before hand.
Edit: Had Player death there for a second... wups.
On the topic of keeping people interested the above poster has the right idea, allow new players to experiment without fear of consequence.Heh, I've never seen/heard this before. In fact, in every introductory game of D&D/PF I've ever seen, part of the fun is dealing with the consequences of actions.Consequences of actions, sure. But I think the OP was talking about consequences of character design and I think there's a difference there.
New players can't be expected to have any degree of system mastery and it's frustrating to get stuck with skills, feats and other choices that never get used.
Yeah totally misread |: It's one of those days. . . .
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Wolfus Mandrago,
Welcome to the wonderful world of GMing! :)
I had it easier than you. I had some previous playing experience to draw from. Running a game raw like this is more difficult. I applaud your bravery and your group's trust in your ability to pull it off! I think your post shows you were a great choice, as you're working hard to provide the best experience you can for you and your group.
Running the first campaign with modules is a good idea - it gives you a lot of help when starting out by giving you guidance and rules and scenarios and already built npcs ready to go. You've not doubt noticed being a GM still requires a bit of ad-libbing when the players do something a little different, but modules removes a lot of that up-front work as you're trying to get your experience and rules familiarity built up.
My first advice is, where possible, stick to the basic rules as presented for now. I understand the temptation in changing things to fit what you like right now, but many things in the game are interconnected, and a seemingly small change can have very large in game consequences. Until you're all pretty comfortable with the basics of play and can build a simple character without much assistance, I wouldn't fiddle with the rules too much, personally. To keep things simpler, maybe even just the core rules would be enough for you. They provide all of the basics, but limit options a bit to allow you time to absorb many of the gaming concepts before you tack on more complexities.
Second, have some pregens ready. You can find some online, in modules and adventure paths. Just to increase your own rules-fu, you may wish to create a couple yourself too - fiddling with the character creation process can teach you a lot of the game!
When players complain ("my feat sucks", "swim is stupid", "I wish I had a bow") about choices they've made, I suggest you take note and then at the end of the session, go over these comments. Maybe it was circumstantial ("Your dagger wasn't too useful against the skeletons today, Bob, but remember how nice it was when nobody else could smuggle weapons into that dinner? Maybe you just need a club for skeleton emergencies...") or maybe it's a learning experience about which choices are more useful, or how much they are used ("Yeah, swim isn't really useful yet, is it. Hmm. Well, let's look at the skill description. Oh, look here, unless you guys are lost in an ocean, you really only need to make DC 10 or DC 15 skill checks. Maybe you only need a couple of points, and then you can go back to building up your Acrobatics so you dance around in combat without lots of attacks of opportunity").
I bet these little examinations of their complaints will help everyone understand what works and what doesn't faster - and as you're all learning, this should speed the process and draw you all closer together at the same time. This helps make sure the players understand that you're learning with them, and you're playing with them, not against them, even if you do control the enemy characters.
I would guess at level up time it's a good time to talk to the group about changing their characters up a bit if they need to. Talk to everyone, and see what makes sense to them. Do they just want the ability to move a couple skill points and swap a feat around? Or do they want a major rewrite? Are the other players okay with changes?
Most importantly, have fun! Good luck!
Thanks to everyone who posted. I wasn't expecting this much of a response, and I really appreciate the time you all took to make a contribution. I've read every post beginning to end.
I definitely agree with having back up plans and I never thought to have back up characters. This is something I'm going to try for the next session.
The big boss fight at the end of the Falcon's Hollow disease module was a perfect example of needing preparation for the unexpected. I spent an hour or two developing the boss fight into something epic, with multiple stages to the battle (and accompanying boss music on a lap top). In the first round, the ranger scored a critical and got the highest damage possible on her rolls, effectively screwing all of my work up. I maintained composure and improvised... but wow, what a (unfortunate) surprise.
As a side note, the only point of reference for D&D/PF that I had before playing was a single episode of "Community," and this video here: 8 Bit Theatre D&D
Thank you again for all of the advice. I would specifically quote segments of people's posts but it's a lot of info to go through. I'm going to review and apply it to the best of my ability. If anyone wants to hear some funny horror stories of a first-time DM, I'll see what I can do :P
They're coming up on two enemies with DR/Magic. One is the giant slug creature, and the other is a gargoyle. I don't know if our two casters can handle it, and I think the Fighter has a +1 weapon (which can hit magically because it's +1?). The Vargouille might clean house too, with it's disease. The forgespurned has a +10 on his chain-of-death, which can oneshot most of the group on a cluster of high rolls. Should I nerf these?
Don't nerf them. If you really feel the need, drop a scroll of magic weapon so the sorcerer can make sure that the non-casters can still deal some damage. The DR/Magic is something that they should be able to deal with even at level 2. Either they need to deal more damage to compensate or they need magic weapons. Without knowing what the sorcerer's spells are what the druid typically prepares, it's hard to give a lot of advice. Just make sure that they are able to cast effective spells, which may or may not be direct damage.
Speaking of nerfing, how do you guys deal with death? I want to provide a challenge with the occasional risk of death without killing people. A TPK would also be horrible, since we don't have the experience to simply cook up another character on the fly. The night where a character dies is going to be a traumatic one.
I don't know the rules, but I was thinking of possible resurrections in town depending on the condition of the corpse. Maybe a formula of 1000 + character level x 100 = gold cost for resurrection. This means a level 5 character would need 1500 gold to be brought back. I want the cost to be large enough to ensure people don't suicide due to cheap res costs.
Others have probably already answered this but the cost is already listed in the Equipment section. Keep in mind that this party should be considering things like reincarnate and raise dead instead of resurrection. As for a character dying, it isn't always a bad things. Sometimes players have to learn what characters they like and fit their play style through trial and error.
On the topic of keeping people interested, how would you guys do it? Everyone is having a great time, but occasionally I hear "I wish I didn't take this skill..." or "I feel useless" because the quests don't use the options they chose. The people who specialized in really common things like Perception are getting way more out of the game than people who invested in Swim. Yay, Swim... Woooo....
One thing I always do it look to see if there is anything that a player is telling me with their choices. If someone puts some ranks into Swim, they are telling me that they want to use the Swim skill at some point. No problem, I can arrange that. Maybe put something at the bottom of a body of water that needs getting. Add an opponent or two, nothing too tough, to keep the danger high and there you go!
Remind them that not all their options will be useful all the time. Sometimes they may need to go out of their way to make them useful. My players are always surprising me with what they want to do with their skills. I encourage it!
I have so many stories I could type, and lots of little questions... but I'll leave it at this for now.
Ask away.
One thing I want to throw in is bonuses and penalties. Sometimes you won't really know how to deal with something in that's not in the books. Remember that you can always just apply a +/- 2 to a check or attack roll if necessary. Use this wisely and fairly and your characters will surprise you with the things they come up with. I always make sure I tell them when I apply it so they know that I want them to try new things.
Perhaps I could add one more question, then.
The Forge Spurned has these attack stats:
Melee mwk adamantine warhammer +8 (1d8+6)
Soul chain +10 (2d4+10 plus 1d6 fire)
I'm assuming the Soul Chain +10 means I'm subtracting 10 from the target's AC. I think our sorcerer has 11 AC, which is a guaranteed hit from this creature. Soul Chain's minimum damage, with the lowest possible rolls, is going to be 13. She has 12 HP total. That means the sorcerer receives an instant K.O from Soul Chain.
Does this mean I should avoid hitting weaker players with Soul Chain? Should I be trying to kill the players? Finding the balance can be difficult. If I really wanted to, I could take advantage of their inexperience and tactically overrun them... but instead I try to hit the Fighter and other, sturdier characters more often.
From a strategy perspective, the Forge Spurned could instant K.O the Sorcerer on the first round, and most likely instant K.O the Druid in the second round. I could probably use the +8 bonus from his warhammer to Power Attack the Rogue or Monk and clean them out fairly quickly.
If I K.O two or more players and suspect a potential TPK, I assume I should prepare an NPC to come help the players? There are a few options within the module that I could pick from, so the actual NPC selection should be easy.
First, you may want to start using Spoiler tags if these are part of a module.
The Forge Spurned has these attack stats:
Melee mwk adamantine warhammer +8 (1d8+6)
Soul chain +10 (2d4+10 plus 1d6 fire)I'm assuming the Soul Chain +10 means I'm subtracting 10 from the target's AC. I think our sorcerer has 11 AC, which is a guaranteed hit from this creature. Soul Chain's minimum damage, with the lowest possible rolls, is going to be 13. She has 12 HP total. That means the sorcerer receives an instant K.O from Soul Chain.
+10 means that you add 10 to the creature's attack roll. It may not be an instant hit because if you roll a "1" you automatically miss.
Does this mean I should avoid hitting weaker players with Soul Chain? Should I be trying to kill the players? Finding the balance can be difficult. If I really wanted to, I could take advantage of their inexperience and tactically overrun them... but instead I try to hit the Fighter and other, sturdier characters more often.
Have the creature fight as it should based on it's Intelligence, Wisdom, and personality.
From a strategy perspective, the Forge Spurned could instant K.O the Sorcerer on the first round, and most likely instant K.O the Druid in the second round. I could probably use the +8 bonus from his warhammer to Power Attack the Rogue or Monk and clean them out fairly quickly.
Don't actively try to kill the PCs. Have the creature (re)act appropriately. Remember that GM metagaming is as bad, if not worse, than player metagaming.
If I K.O two or more players and suspect a potential TPK, I assume I should prepare an NPC to come help the players? There are a few options within the module that I could pick from, so the actual NPC selection should be easy.
I generally let the players figure out how they want to handle things. My players know that they won't win every battle. They have learned that discretion is the better part of valor!
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Perhaps I could add one more question, then.
The Forge Spurned has these attack stats: [snip]
While you know the numbers involved, the forge doesn't know how many hit points the sorceror has. He sees the fighter dude, or the stick figure in a robe.
Let's say the Forge is a robot. he has a pre-programmed response to attack the first creature it detects within range of its weapon. If the sorceror is in the lead, he's attacked right away. But maybe the fighter is first. So the fighter is attacked and the sorceror can stand back and magic missile it with impunity - it's too stupid to change tactics.
Let's say the Forge has animal intelligence. It's as smart as wolf or lion. It may go for weaker prey first, given the choice, but it will attack threats before it attacks something that's not a threat. Again, if the sorceror hangs back, he may let the Forge focus on the fighter, and only then attack.
Let's say the Forge is of average human intelligence, but has the stated goal that it hates anything with red hair. while it won't do anything stupid under normal circumstances to get itself killed, it's hatred of red heads may lead it to do things a non-emotional creature wouldn't do.
Let's say the Forge is a merciless, emotionless intelligence. It would do what it could, given the information it had to neutralize threats as quickly and thoroughly as possible.
FYI: metagaming is dictating character (even non player character) actions with game or rules knowledge instead of the knowledge that character would actually have if this was all happening in a real world. You want to make this feel like a story as much as possible, with real characters acting with identifiable motivations and reacting to knowledge they can forseeably have.
For example, I had created a fire blasting sorceror to attack the party with. She was focused solely on blowing things up, with some resources kept aside for fleeing if things went badly. I didn't, however, give her many ranks in spellcraft. So when the party bard cast confusion on her, on her first round she was able to act normally. I rolled a spellcraft check to see if she realized exactly what spell she was under...and she failed the check. She didn't realize she would be confused the next round, and didn't take steps to undo the spell. next round she blew up her own party in a confused rage. I knew what was going on with her. She had the tools available to save herself...but she didn't know what had happened, and thus was undone due to her own lack of studying spellcraft.
Thing is, it IS possible to take the forge spurned down at the expected level... But that is with experienced players. It really is a huge, single opponent, which means the number of PCs isn't too relevant. Worse, due to how the encounter works, you really have no option but to fight. No, in general, you shouldn't nerf things, but this one really begs for it. A simple suggestion would be to just remove the extra fire damage for its chain. Other than that, it should target according with its intelligence and wisdom.
Pathfinder is a massive game. Tt probably has way more rules than any game a tabletop newbie has ever played by an order of magnitude. And it asks you to make judgments with long-term consequences before you've even had a chance to see any of the rules in action. Even people building their tenth characters don't always have a good feeling for the utility of the options they're taking during character generation. (Not everyone is super system-minded.) It's only much more exaggerated with new players. While the game does have relatively fewer "trap" options than 3.5, it's still easy for a player to end up with a bunch of character options that they don't feel are useful, especially if they're playing a caster. While there's something to be said for learning to make the best of what you've dealt yourself, in general I nearly always allow people - especially new players - to experiment freely with changing things around, providing that they're not trying to game that generosity. (Which brand new players almost never are.) This is, if anything, more important when you're running published modules. While many high-quality modules try to make lots of character options helpful here or there, it's just the nature of some of them that certain things are going to feel useless a lot of the time. I don't like new players to feel like the semi-blind guessing they did during character creation is having permanent consequences or reducing the extent to which they're helpful to their friends, so I let people swap stuff out pretty freely early on.
I'm assuming the Soul Chain +10 means I'm subtracting 10 from the target's AC. I think our sorcerer has 11 AC, which is a guaranteed hit from this creature. Soul Chain's minimum damage, with the lowest possible rolls, is going to be 13. She has 12 HP total. That means the sorcerer receives an instant K.O from Soul Chain.
Mathematically you're right, but mechanically you're looking at it backwards. Just for purposes of communicating with others, we view it that the +10 is additive, increasing the attacker's roll, not reducing the defenders AC. Same thing, but conversationally you'll confuse folk. Given that a natural roll of 1 on a d20 attack roll is an automatic miss, the lowest possible attack roll is 2+10 = 12, which is an automatic hit against the sorcerer.
Does this mean I should avoid hitting weaker players with Soul Chain? Should I be trying to kill the players? Finding the balance can be difficult. If I really wanted to, I could take advantage of their inexperience and tactically overrun them... but instead I try to hit the Fighter and other, sturdier characters more often.
Nope. In fact, if the creature is intelligent and views the sorcerer as a primary threat, it should gun for him/her especially. That said, it's exactly encounters like this that teach players to work as a team. The FIVE OTHER BODIES should be staying in the way. Again, you've got a lot of PCs in your group. Bad guy gets one attack a round. Even if he puts someone unconscious and a healer type spends their action stabilizing them, that leaves FOUR PCs to "do something" that hurts the bad guy.
From a strategy perspective, the Forge Spurned could instant K.O the Sorcerer on the first round, and most likely instant K.O the Druid in the second round. I could probably use the +8 bonus from his warhammer to Power Attack the Rogue or Monk and clean them out fairly quickly.
If I K.O two or more players and suspect a potential TPK, I assume I should prepare an NPC to come help the players? There are a few options within the module that I could pick from, so the actual NPC selection should be easy.
That won't leave your players feeling very heroic. I haven't read the situation, but what I might consider is letting the players figure it out that they're overmatched and retreat. Have the bad guy pull a "come back when you're not beneath my attention" speech and let them go.
That way they can regroup, rest, rethink, and PLAN an attack. That's a HUGE lesson in this game. Once they get in the habit of planning, they'll learn to do it on-the-fly.
Welcome to GMing. I have done it for 8 years and played for 12.
Took you 4 hours to make your players? Well.. I can inform you, that my group, we take about 5-6 hours :P But we also spend a lot of time talking about how our characters know each other, their background and the whole scenario setting. We don't play the same day we make the chars as it can be quite exhausting to go straight into roleplaying after 5 hours of thinking and designing a group.
One thing about your group. They only have one healer and that is the druid. Therefor, long combats will be devastating for them as they run out of it. I would consider making them complete non-combat-related tasks first.
Example they help someone. An alchemist, a gnome tradesman or a temple is waiting for a shipment. And when the wares is in the town or nearby suddenly the wagon or ship is on fire. Your players might hear an explosion, see the smoke or smell the fire. To complete this task all they have to do is skill based checks. And once completed they have a friend in town - which could provide them with healing potions, if a merchant or alchemist, or maybe daily healing spells from the local temple.
This way they complete something without getting completely bloody by evil monsters.
This kind of tasks is very very good, as they give them the situation to use skills they dont use often, they get into contact with a friendly NPC.
You mentioned swim..
What if the shipment is from a ship.. and the explosion makes some of the wares fall into the water and it cages begin to sink.. The more cages he rescues the more profit from helping..
Just keep thinking..
How I deal with death. As a GM I always give them two choices. Either get resurrection for a high price and if they can't afford it.. Make a deal.. The priest says.. "Yeah I will resurrect your friend if you promise to do this dangerous quest..." and you are on again.
Keeping people interested is the main problem or job for the GM. You mention perception. Well. It is the most used skill in pathfinder and will always be. Deal with it.
Other skills.. If a char of yours ranks perform dance, profession brewer or craft furcloth.. Them make things for him.. You are the GM .. You make the world..
A dwarf with brewing?.. Make a local inn a special place because of their special drinks.. And all the drinks is made by a local guild of brewers, tradesmen and alike.. To make your player join them.. Make him do something.. A task, a job or something else.. Just think..
Once he has completed.. He is in the guild.. Give him a bed, pay him for his work, give him a title, a guild badge/tabard/uniform and even make him give a work as a bartender in the inn?.. Make his fighter friend the big muscles in the door that keeps peace and weapons out of the inn..
And while they do their jobs.. Motivate the other players to do stuff too.. Find a job.. Make friends.. Play their character and become one with the world - the world that YOU designs for them.
My favorite advice for any DM (stolen from Dungeon World):
Be a fan of the characters
Treat the players’ characters like characters you watch on TV. You want to see how things turn out for them. You’re not here to make them lose, or to make them win, and definitely not to guide them to your story. You’re here to portray the interesting world around them and see how interacting with that world changes everything.