Hi All.
Some magic items say "Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the {whatever} is worn."
Does that mean that following the 1st 24 hours you should treat it as a permanent ability bonus? Or that after 24 hours the item no longer works?
If the latter (which I suspect is the case), then how does one "recharge" the item?
Thanks in advance!
After 24 hours, it's treated as a permanent bonus.
So even if the character removes the magic item, the bonus remains?
If so, what happens if the character put the magic item back on? Does he/she get an additional (stacked) bonus?
Permanent for qualifying for feats and the like. It is still an enhancement bonus, and it is removed when the item is.
Just ignore this unless you have rules lawyer players.
It is to avoid a loophole involving extra spells.
You can't put on a headband of wisdom and pray for spells and then take it off and give to your friend the druid and let him pray and get extra spells too.
It is to avoid a loophole involving extra spells.
You can't put on a headband of wisdom and pray for spells and then take it off and give to your friend the druid and let him pray and get extra spells too.
This as well
The difference for temporary and permanent are important, mechanically.
Different things get buffed and the temporary buff list is limited:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Temporary increases to your Dexterity score give you a bonus on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The bonus also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.
Intelligence: Temporary increases to your Intelligence score give you a bonus on Intelligence-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Temporary increases to your Wisdom score give you a bonus on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Temporary increases to your Charisma score give you a bonus on Charisma-based skill checks. This bonus also applies to any spell DCs based on Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Ok, let me clarify:
After 24 hours, it is treated as a permanent buff as long as you continue wearing the item.
And yes, the rule is absolutely there to prevent magic item swapping as Ashkecker described.
So even if the character removes the magic item, the bonus remains?
If so, what happens if the character put the magic item back on? Does he/she get an additional (stacked) bonus?
No. If you read those items it states the item grants an enhancement bonus. When the item goes away, the bonus goes away. If you look at the Tomes or Manuals they state a player gains a bonus of x. It doesn't say the bonus is connected with the item. So, in that instance, once you use the book, you can discard the book and the bonus remains. Those wordings are important.
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It's actually a bigger deal than that, Ashkecker.
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Observe that hit points are a bonus that come from permanent ability gains. Merely putting on a belt of constitution or swigging a potion of bear's endurance does not grant permanent bonuses. (This is a change from the 3.5 ruleset, under which a potion of bear's endurance does increase your hit points for the duration of the potion.)
Observe that hit points are a bonus that come from permanent ability gains. Merely putting on a belt of constitution or swigging a potion of bear's endurance does not grant permanent bonuses. (This is a change from the 3.5 ruleset, under which a potion of bear's endurance does increase your hit points for the duration of the potion.)
They still give you Hit Points temporarily. Check out the rules quote Buri gave a couple posts up.
Observe that hit points are a bonus that come from permanent ability gains. Merely putting on a belt of constitution or swigging a potion of bear's endurance does not grant permanent bonuses. (This is a change from the 3.5 ruleset, under which a potion of bear's endurance does increase your hit points for the duration of the potion.)
Read my quote from the PRD. Temporary CON bonuses do confer extra hit points.
Ninja'd xD
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They still give you Hit Points temporarily. Check out the rules quote Buri gave a couple posts up.
(nods) It's a rules contradiction; I know. We have to make a ruling one way or the other.
At my table, a potion of bear's endurance grants nothing more than a Fortitude save bonus, because hit points are one of the examples of the effects of permanent attribute increases, and I think the section on temporary effects of Constitution bonus needs to comply with that. If the FAQ resolve the issue one way or the other, that would be fine with me.
They still give you Hit Points temporarily. Check out the rules quote Buri gave a couple posts up.(nods) It's a rules contradiction;
It's not a contradiction. Hit Points are something you gain from permanent increases, but that doesn't mean you can't also gain them from temporary increases.
If you borrow my Pathfinder book for the day, you can read it today.
If you buy a Pathfinder book today, you can read it today.
The fact that you can read the book today if you acquire it permanently does not, in any way, contradict or diminish the fact that you can read it today if acquire it temporarily.
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In a first-order logic sense, you might be right, mplindustries. It depends on the definition you assign to "gives".
In a conversational rhetoric sense, text that says "Achieving X gives you Y and Z." means "You probably didn't have Y or Z before. Once you achieve X, you do." That sentence makes no sense if you must have already had Y.
In your example, let's say you loaned me your rulebook, and then said "Now that you've borrowed the book, you should know that buying the book from me gives you the right to read Chapter 10." It's reasonable to assume from that sentence that you don't consider me to have that right until I buy the book. That's what 'gives' means to most people. And that's what it means to me, under these circumstances.
I'm not saying you're wrong to favor the text under benefits of temporary Constitution increase. But I'm favoring the text under benefits of permanent increases.
In a first-order logic sense, you might be right, mplindustries. It depends on the definition you assign to "gives".
In a conversational rhetoric sense, text that says "Achieving X gives you Y and Z." means "You probably didn't have Y or Z before. Once you achieve X, you do." That sentence makes no sense if you must have already had Y.
The flaw in that argument is the assumption that all bonuses are temporary before they become permanent.
If you ever receive a permanent bonus without having the temporary version first, you would not have had the Hit Points already.
I think it's best to read the temporary and permanent bonus sections as separate, and the specific case of items providing a temporary bonus that turns into a permanent one as the exception that links the two sections.
I'm not saying you're wrong to favor the text under benefits of temporary Constitution increase. But I'm favoring the text under benefits of permanent increases.
They both apply equally. One applies to temporary bonuses and the other applies to permanent bonuses. Just because one is there does not modify the other. In the case of wearing a belt that grants a con bonus, the amount gained simply stays the same once you transition from temporary to permanent and don't have to rewrite anything, depending on your style of notation. The belt specifically states to treat the bonus as temporary for the first 24 hours. We look up temporary bonuses and see we gain HP. Awesome. After 24 hours it is now permanent thanks to the ability bonus section text. It says we change the actual score and gain all the benefits thereof. Technically, the temporary benefit drops off and we now gain the permanent one. In the case of a belt of +con the numerical amount is the same.
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It's nice to see an internet discussion end this civilly.
Howdy all! Sorry for the necro-post, but after tonight's game session where my players pointed this out this magic item descriptor to me, I decided I needed to do a little research to figure out what the heck is going on. My players were taking the implication of the wording literally, thinking that after 24 hours the conveyed bonuses became truly permanent even if the magic item were later removed. To that I sternly disagreed, but lacked the canon explanation as to why.
That led me to Google in search of an answer, and ultimately here to this discussion thread.
Having read through this one a few times, and gone over the cited rule above straight from pgs. 554 & 555 of the Core Rulebook, it finally donned on me what the purpose of this common descriptor actually is.
Whenever a magic item says it's bonuses are treated as "Temporary" for the first 24 hours, it's actually just speaking towards the timing of the bonuses' effectiveness. Generally speaking, any magic item or spell that bestowes a long-lasting bonus falls under the "Permanent" category by definition of its prolonged duration of effect (even if the word Permanent is a misnomer since few things are genuinely permanent). But the problem with that is Piazo also set the rule that Permanent bonuses take a full 24 hours to gradually go into effect. By having various magic items initially bestow their bonuses on a 24-hour "Temporary" basis, they get around their own rule here.
So, simply put, the reason why magic items like the Belt of Physical Perfection and such include the line, "temporary for the first 24 hours", is so the character can get instant benefit to the item's bonuses without having to wait a whole day. That's it! There may be other benefits as noted above, but its just Piazo's roundabout way of saying, "Put it on and use it immediatelyl, not this time tomorrow."
So, simply put, the reason why magic items like the Belt of Physical Perfection and such include the line, "temporary for the first 24 hours", is so the character can get instant benefit to the item's bonuses without having to wait a whole day. That's it! There may be other benefits as noted above, but its just Piazo's roundabout way of saying, "Put it on and use it immediatelyl, not this time tomorrow."
You gain limited benefits from the belt during the first 24 hours. It makes you stronger in battles indeed, as quoted in Buri's first posting. But it doesn't do more than that - for instance you have to wait 24 hours to qualify for feats needing a high Str / Con / Dex.
And yes, as soon as you unequip the item, you lose its bonuses. No matter whether you do it during the first 24 hours or afterwards.
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Howdy all! Sorry for the necro-post, but after tonight's game session where my players pointed this out this magic item descriptor to me, I decided I needed to do a little research to figure out what the heck is going on. My players were taking the implication of the wording literally, thinking that after 24 hours the conveyed bonuses became truly permanent even if the magic item were later removed. To that I sternly disagreed, but lacked the canon explanation as to why.
That led me to Google in search of an answer, and ultimately here to this discussion thread.
Having read through this one a few times, and gone over the cited rule above straight from pgs. 554 & 555 of the Core Rulebook, it finally donned on me what the purpose of this common descriptor actually is.
Whenever a magic item says it's bonuses are treated as "Temporary" for the first 24 hours, it's actually just speaking towards the timing of the bonuses' effectiveness. Generally speaking, any magic item or spell that bestowes a long-lasting bonus falls under the "Permanent" category by definition of its prolonged duration of effect (even if the word Permanent is a misnomer since few things are genuinely permanent). But the problem with that is Piazo also set the rule that Permanent bonuses take a full 24 hours to gradually go into effect. By having various magic items initially bestow their bonuses on a 24-hour "Temporary" basis, they get around their own rule here.
So, simply put, the reason why magic items like the Belt of Physical Perfection and such include the line, "temporary for the first 24 hours", is so the character can get instant benefit to the item's bonuses without having to wait a whole day. That's it! There may be other benefits as noted above, but its just Piazo's roundabout way of saying, "Put it on and use it immediatelyl, not this time tomorrow."
Your players are skipping the last row of the text about permanent bonuses:
Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
...
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
The point is that Temporary bonuses only increase some aspect of the ability, while permanent bonuses increase all the value derived from that ability, but you still need to keep the item on to benefit from it.
Stat enhancing items fall under the "use activated category of items.
èquote=PRD]Use Activated: This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. [b]Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person).[b] However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
You don't wear the item? You don't get the benefit.
Since you necro'd the thread, you might also want to consider this FAQ that seems to negate all differentiation between temporary and permanent bonuses.
Since you necro'd the thread, you might also want to consider this FAQ that seems to negate all differentiation between temporary and permanent bonuses.
Thanks for mentioning that FAQ. I had never noticed that one before.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Thanks for mentioning that FAQ. I had never noticed that one before.
It happened when there was a very long thread on whether or not the example changes for temporary bonuses was "a sample of things" or "a complete list."
The FAQ simply clarified that the lists of sample items in the back of the book is simply that. A sample list of the types of things that change.
Yeah, that FAQ is a bit of a head-scratcher as it would seem that temporary stat buffs do indeed boost things like uses per day based on ability bonuses, such as cleric's channel ability, # of alchemist bombs, and so on.
I doubt most people were playing that way pre-FAQ.
Personally I play that in order to gain things like channel, etc, you need to have the bonus at the time your abilities refresh their usage count AND continue to have the bonus up until the time you want to use those extra usages (and the extras are always used last).
Daily resources need permanent sources as they recharge at a certain time and are set for the day. Yes your charisma "has permanently" been increased temporarily, but your channels were already set for the day when that happens.
for instance you have to wait 24 hours to qualify for feats needing a high Str / Con / Dex.
Actually, nothing says that you need permanent bonuses for prereqs. The CRB says "Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." - no mentioning of permanent.
To my knowledge, no official ruling exists, but Lead Designer Jason Bulmahn said in the Thread to the Brawler playtest that the temporary effect from brawler's flurry works as prereqs.Which is odd, since it would be even shorter for the book to have used the FAQ language in the first place.
You could probably shave off half the pages in the CRB with concise, consistent language, seperation of fluff and actual rule text, and a proper organisation. They should have listed the things that are not increased by temporary ability bonuses.
for instance you have to wait 24 hours to qualify for feats needing a high Str / Con / Dex.Actually, nothing says that you need permanent bonuses for prereqs. The CRB says "Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat." - no mentioning of permanent.
To my knowledge, no official ruling exists, but Lead Designer Jason Bulmahn said in the Thread to the Brawler playtest that the temporary effect from brawler's flurry works as prereqs.
There's a rules thread that discusses using magic to qualify for a feat and losing the feat when you no longer meet the prerequisites. I can't find it at the moment, though. I'll keep looking.
Edited to add: Found a couple, but these predate the "temporary=permanent" FAQ:
Sean Reynolds on needing permanent ability enhancements to qualify for feats
James Jacobs on temporary ability penalties and feats
Daily resources need permanent sources as they recharge at a certain time and are set for the day. Yes your charisma "has permanently" been increased temporarily, but your channels were already set for the day when that happens.'Recharging' of abilities isn't very well defined in Pathfinder, but playing it your way, someone could use a short 2nd level stat boost to expand their abilities for the rest of the day, even when the stat boost wears off.
Not sure that's preferable to just allowing the extra uses during the stat boost, and if they're not used up by then, too bad.
no because those are temporary and thus not used for the daily recharge.
But you can't ever get that, as the daily recharge is when you have no temp bonuses on you.
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no because those are temporary and thus not used for the daily recharge.Daily resources need permanent sources as they recharge at a certain time and are set for the day. Yes your charisma "has permanently" been increased temporarily, but your channels were already set for the day when that happens.'Recharging' of abilities isn't very well defined in Pathfinder, but playing it your way, someone could use a short 2nd level stat boost to expand their abilities for the rest of the day, even when the stat boost wears off.
Not sure that's preferable to just allowing the extra uses during the stat boost, and if they're not used up by then, too bad.
Er, except now we have a FAQ that says there is functionally no difference between 'temporary' and permanent stat increases. So how on earth would you justify not allowing those temporarily boosted stats to take effect during the daily recharge?
Even using your argument itself:
Yes your charisma "has permanently" been increased temporarily, but your channels were already set for the day when that happens.suggests that if the boost occurred while the channels were 'set' for the day then you would get the extra channels.
When you lose your temporary benefit you lose all the linked effects.
Extra hit point from constitution, better Ac for dexterity and so on.If you allow people to gain extra spell slot for temporary bonuses when they memorize spells, they would lose them immediately when the temporary effect end. For most characters that would happen before they have memorized all their spells.
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But you can't ever get that, as the daily recharge is when you have no temp bonuses on you.How do you figure that? If the daily recharge is at midnight, cast eagle's splendor 10min beforehand. Use a wand.
Done.
If the daily recharge is at 6am, cast eagle's splendor 10 min beforehand. Use a wand.
Done.
Not sure how you prevent that.
Rather, it makes far more sense to me if the capacity is increased _while_ you have the increased stat, and then goes away when you stat bonus goes away.
Have 5 channels per day, you have used 4 of them, 1 left. Cast Eagle's splendor, now you have 3 left. Use 2 more and have 1 left, the spell ends, now you have no more left.
All those spells have: "Duration 1 min./level". Minimum time to memorize the spell: 15 minutes. Plus 1 round to cast the spell, minimum caster level for the wand: 16. A 24k wand.
Then the effect end when the spell end. You lose 4 point from your casting stat, with all the benefits they give, included the extra spells.
It is very simple: a temporary boost give you the benefit only while it last.
Just for fun:
If his rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time he has to rest in order to clear his mind, and he must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing his spells.
If we read that in stupidly strict RAW, you can't use the wand .or be the target of a spell. As soon as you wake you must start studying, without any kind of interruption.
Sean Reynolds on needing permanent ability enhancements to qualify for feats
I actually read that thread some time ago, but 1. it's still just a forum post and not an official ruling and 2. both the FAQ and the (imo way more official) brawler playtest clerification contradict the SKR post and newer ruling trumps older ruling.
emphasis mine is pretty clear, to be honest. Anything without an explicit exception treats temporary and permanent ability bonuses the same, according to the FAQ.
On a side note: Holy s*!!, the rules are a mess. Eagle's splendor et al. state that they give you no extra spells... but, now, magic items do. They could have saved space by simply adding "spellcasters do not gain any additional bonus spells from temporary ability increases", but apparently "must be written like crap" was the prime instruction for everyone writing stuff for the CRB.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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On a side note: Holy s&%#, the rules are a mess.
Actually it can is often cleaned up simply.
Temp bonuses work for everything normally, but some things refresh once daily at a set (by GM) time.
Slots for example, even if the spell didn't prevent spell slots, wouldn't be as useful. While you could sit down and memorize spells in those new slots, if you remove the temp bonus you lost that slot. If you put it back on, you get back a prepared spell, unused slot, or expended slot depending on what it was when you removed the temp bonus.
So you don't gain anything you wouldn't gain normally.
Also with the rule that you track uses not remaining.
This was explained, spirit dancer mediums can gain extra spell slots if they channel the mage spirit and then lose them when you switch. If you normally have 1 lv1 spell per day, if you go mage you go up to like 4, but if you cast one and go out of mage spirit you have no spell slots left to use. Thus temporary things "if they did change uses per day" would be wasted as once the temp goes away you're still down just as much as normal.
Hi All.
Some magic items say "Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the {whatever} is worn."
Does that mean that following the 1st 24 hours you should treat it as a permanent ability bonus? Or that after 24 hours the item no longer works?
If the latter (which I suspect is the case), then how does one "recharge" the item?
Thanks in advance!
It's like this... Say you have a Str 11.
You put on a +2 Strength belt. You now have a boosted str of 13.
Leave it on for 24 hours, you now qualify for Power Attack. If you later lose the belt, you still have the feat, but you can't use it until you get the belt back, or otherwise raise your strength. This also appies to any other feat you have that has either STR13 or Power Attack as a pre-req.