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You seem to be arguing that you cannot use a two-handed reach weapon as part of a Flurry of Blows.

In actual fact the rule is that you cannot use any weapon other than Improved Unarmed Strike or one which has the "monk" special quality.

The original post, however had nothing to do with Flurry of Blows. It was specifically chasing the ability of a character to threaten both 5' and 10' from themselves while wielding a reach weapon if they have the Improved Unarmed Strike ability. The answer to this is yes, they do threaten, as Improved Unarmed Strike does not require hands to be free to make an attack.

As such, this allows the equipped character to make that Attack of Opportunity against the foe 10' away, and then with Combat Reflexes, they can also take an Attack of Opportunity with their Unarmed Strike. As the Attacks of Opportunity are standalone attacks and not part of a Flurry of Blows attack action, the character is entitled to use whichever weapon, or attack type, they feel is appropriate at the time (assuming the weapon can make the attack).

Flurry of Blows plays no part in determining the legality of the situation.

Hope this clears it up for you.

Ravingdork wrote:

So, if an attack of opportunity occurs BEFORE the triggering event, wouldn't that mean that both the AoO from Greater Trip AND Vicious Stomp treat the target as standing?

If so, that's seriously lame. The feats literally benefit others more than yourself.

Not quite. The trigger for the AOO from Greater Trip is succeeding at tripping the target. You then take your AOO, prior to the opponent falling, and therefore not gaining any benefits for a prone target (as the target is not yet prone).

After the Greater Trip AOO is resolved the target falls and is prone. It is the target becoming prone which is the trigger for Vicious Stomp and so you take the AOO related to that action then, gaining the benefit of the target's -4 AC due to being prone.

Obviously the normal Caveats such as Combat Reflexes and available AOO are required, although a character may wish to not use the Greater Trip AOO if they do not have enough to then make the Vicious Stomp AOO (which will be made at an advantage).

I have a Monk who uses a Hyena Skin to take make a Trip attempt as a Swift Action, a Vicious Stomp AOO (with Stunning Fist) if successful and then a full group of Flurry of Blows attacks against the prone (and maybe stunned) opponent. Doesn't always work, but when it does it can be quite fun and improves the to-hit chances dramatically.

Combat Manager is very good - available on PC, iPad and Android.

I use the PC version to pre-build the upcoming encounters and then copy the files to my Android tablet for use at the table. It can handle some conditions and will track durations etc. It has a large number of creatures and NPCs from the SRD and can import Hero Lab character portfolios.

The Prayer takes 1 round per level of desired effect

Answer : No, except when the weapon being used has the Grapple quality and is a light weapon usable under the Weapon Finesse rules

Is Unarmed Strike a grappling weapon?
While you are generally using your hands to make the grapple, you are not using Unarmed Strike to effect the grapple and it is Improved Unarmed Strike which makes your hands a weapon. You do not gain a bonus to Climb or Craft just because you have Weapon Finesse and you use your hands for these purposes and as such you don't gain a Weapon Finesse bonus for Grapple.

Agile Maneuvers does give the same ability to use Dexterity for maneuvers and without the light weapon caveats. Use this if you want a Dex based grappler, but don't expect AoMF or weapon focus to apply.

Combat Maneuvers is a good idea as you effectively have full BAB and there are potential benefits for a successful result
- Trip gets them prone (hopefully)
- Bullrush can affect their battlefield positioning
- Overrun can knock them prone, or allow you to get to a different opponent
- Disarm or Sunder can reduce the opponent's threat if they are weapon based

Obviously these are best done with the Improved ____ feat for the chosen maneuver so as not to provoke an Attack of Opportunity, but certainly something worth considering.

Azelyan wrote:
Why is Wounding a +2 Enhancement then if its not even that good? I dont understand T_T.

Because its not that bad...

- 1 Bleed damage per round, per successful hit
- bypasses Damage reduction
- contniues until successful Heal Check (standard action) or magical heal (again, an action not involving smacking the PCs)

When combat is taking longer than a few rounds this can be invaluable. A source of continual damage and an incentive for the opponent to do something other than hit back. Also, as mentioned above, a creature that can't make a successful heal check will eventually bleed out - useful if they run away faster than you can follow.

For the powergamers and those who don't have GMs who create long-winded combats lasting multiple rounds then 1 damage per round is going to be pretty ordinary, but when it does take longer anything that "hits" whether you do or not is pretty useful, and don't forget that additional hits will increase the bleed effect

As far as I am aware you can grapple any size creature, it just gets harder against larger creatures due to their size bonus to CMD

(you can only Trip a creature up to one size larger to you without special feats)

A lot of it will depend on your campaign and the creatures you are coming up against. Humanoid and smaller creatures which don't have special touch style attacks will be easy meat, but larger creatures with natural attacks and creatures who can disease or drain you with a touch can limit your options dramatically

I have a monk that I thought would specialise somewhat in grappling, but I rarely use it - partly the opponents, partly the GMs dislike for grappling and partly the ineffectiveness of grappling

You would need to stun with an Attack Of Opportunity - it lasts till just before the Initiative Count on which it was triggered which should enable the Rogue/Monk to attempt the Dastardly Finish

But, as mentioned already, you would have great difficulty getting a high enough DC to generate the Stunning Effect and it becomes so circumstantial that you would struggle to find an opportunity to try the combination in any meaningful way - ie it'll only work against lower level wizards which you could probably kill in one or two blows anyway.

I think the ability to overcome DR should scale at 1 point per level rather than just immediately bypassing all DR

Vicious Stomp - Attack of Opportunity anytime an opponent becomes prone adjacent to you (must be taken with an Unarmed Strike)

Greater Trip - successful trip provokes AoO by any relevant opponents

You can pick any Feat for which you qualify at 1, 3, 5 etc, but can only ignore pre-requisites when selecting a Feat through the Combat Style feats (and only when it specifically states you can ignore pre-requisites)

I have asked this question before on another thread and not received a reply.

One of the points made against Weapon Finesse working for grapple is that there is a separate Weapon Focus (Grapple) available and many consider that Unarmed Strike is not necessarily the "weapon" being used to effect the combat maneouver.

Personally, I think the answers should be

Q1: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes you can use Dex in place of Str for your CMB
Q2: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this, then Yes the AoMF will affect your CMB
Q3: If you are using Unarmed Strike to do this then Yes, you will provoke an AOO

i.e. If you get to use Unarmed Strike as the "base weapon" then you get the benefits, and the penalties.

really it comes down to whether or not the Grapple is effected using the "Grapple" weapon or is part of the Unarmed Strike weapon's abilities...

Marshall Jansen wrote:

I think if I were to change the monk, I'd just say:

A monk who takes a move action can use their flurry of blows as a standard action. These attacks can take place throughout the move action and be applied to multiple targets.

So, a monk can move all over the place, punching and kicking everything as he moves through.

I'm fairly certain this doesn't overpower the character, given that the monk is still 3/4 BAB with no spells. I'd wager it's a safe bet and will occasionally make the monk look super-badass.

Which is basically my feeling, except I would restrict the movement to half the Monk's movement. I also like the idea of gradual improvements that lift it up to this.

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Nicos wrote:
LoreKeeper wrote:

As an aside, a better "one change" fix for monks:

"As a swift action a monk may move half their speed."

Very interesting, i would like 1/3 of their speed though.

I think it should scale. To begin with they don't get any additional movement during Flurry of Blows. Then they get the ability to take 5' steps between each Flurry of Blows attack (including the additional ki or haste attacks.

Then they get up to 10' steps between attacks and finally 15' steps between attacks. All limited to half their total movement. this would give them the fast moving, multiple target flavour that a lot of people want.

This should be one of the benefits they receive in exchange for not getting a proper Two Weapon Fighting ability (and qualifying for the feats that have TWF as pre-requisites).

Snakes live in trees...

"Monk" is a weapon property that allows a monk to use it in a Flurry of Blows. It does not mean that every monk is proficient in the weapon, much the same as Trip is a weapon quality which confers appropriate benefits when tripping, but doesn't automatically mean that everyone with Improved Trip can utilise the weapon with proficiency.

Vicious Stomp (Ultimate Combat) goes well with this type of build. Get an Attack of Opportunity anytime something goes prone next to you...

My gut feeling is that it is a fairly Chaotic act...

Thanks for the feedback blaphers and Franthedm.

Will pass on to the group so we know we have the right interpretation.

This is in response to a "discussion" our group had in our last session and while we resolved it in the session, we wanted to get some further clarification from other gamers.

The situation was that the BBEG used Blasphemy against our group and while all of us made our saves, we were also paralysed for one round (mandatory). The question that arose came from when the Paralysed effect actually stops.

My interpretation and that after a reading of the rules is that it stops immediately at the beginning of the BBEG's next turn. The GM's interpretation is that he believes that the effect finishes at the end of the creature's turn because it cast it as it's last action for the turn.

The rules state :

When the rules refer to a "full round", they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

(Emphasis mine)

My understanding is that it doesn't matter when in the creature's turn it cast the spell or created the effect, it ends immediately before it's turn on the appropriate round.

Any suggestions or thoughts would be much appreciated.

Biggest problem with that is that it is on a critical hit for a "weapon" that only crits on a 20 (plus a confirmation roll) which means less than 5% of the time.

I know my monk character would be lucky to have had more than 3 successful critical hits on Unarmed Strike attacks and he's now level 7...

I like it as it sits. I would prefer the DC was easier to get to a more effective level. It seems that most of the time the creatures you most would like to stun are virtually immune by virtue of high fortitude saves.

One thought would be for the damage dealt by the blow to affect the DC (maybe increase the DC by 1/2 Damage or 1/3 Damage value), or for critical hits to raise the DC...

The DC goes up with level and Wisdom increases

There are some additional effects that can be chosen at higher level instead of Stunning
- Fatigued (4th)
- Sickened for 1 minute (8th)
- Staggered for 1d6+1 rounds (12th)
- permanently blinded or deafened (16th)
- Paralysed 1d6+1 rounds (20th)

Potentially a useful ability to have. Doesn't always work, but when it does it works well

Generally the effect of a spent ki point lasts one round
- extra attack
- bonus AC
- extra 20' speed

Ki Strike, where the monk's unarmed strike counts as a magical weapon for purposes of damage reduction only requires that a ki point be available in the ki pool. It does not expend an actual point it just "empowers" any strikes.


With regards to the ability to cast a spell while being Grappled, this is my take on it.

If you are the "losing" party in a grapple and you attempt to cast a spell you need to do so while being impeded by the Grappler. This opponent has you in some level of hold and whether it is by your wrist or arm, neck etc they have enough control over your actions as to make it far more difficult to cast a spell, even with one hand free.

Imagine if you will, that you are trying to write a sentence on paper while someone drags, yanks and twists your other arm. It is not easy and there must be some considerable effort put into overcoming the "distraction".

You are in a grapple against your will, and there are consequences for that. It is fair and reasonable.

As for a pin, my understanding is that you cannot cast a spell with somatic components while pinned, but may attempt a spell which doesn't require intricate movements. You are still at the mercy of your grappler, so you need to cast the spell while your opponent grabs your mouth or shoves it into the ground or shakes you in a way as to disturb your concentration which again is fair and reasonable.

You may be able to cast and escape or disable your opponent, or you may not. It is not an entirely deadly situation. Your companions/minions may be able to rescue you prior to the grappler finishing you off or you may find a way to escape anyway. Don't forget that a 20 on the CMB roll to escape is an automatic success...

Weapon Focus (Grapple) is a way to get +1 to your Grapple checks.

If you have Weapon Focus (Garotte) or some other weapon with the Grapple quality, they don't stack.

Unarmed Strike is not a Grapple Weapon and therefore Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) doesn't enhance your grapple attempts.

Weapon Specialisation gives +2 to damage rolls, and therefore could be considered as okay for Weapon Specialisation (Grapple) to apply +2 when using your grapple action to deliver damage (after a successful check to continue the Grapple).

Joyd wrote:
Yeah, attacking vs. touch isn't "giving monks a little boost". It's "giving monks what appears to be, based on flipping randomly through bestiary pages, an average of about +6 to hit, up to +30 or more against some enemies." You're basically letting monks auto-hit anything that doesn't have a significant dexterity score or that is larger than you. That's just absurd.

Agreed. Flat-Footed would actually make more sense than Touch. Considering Touch is bypassing a creature's natural armour, or worn armour it is hard to explain flavour-wise and is too over-powered as the levels increase.

Even Flat-footed is going to disadvantage creatures by 10+ points eventually which, while less overpowered, is still a major boost...

Talking is okay

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Mike Schneider wrote:
Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

So, if the campaign went on to level 20, by end game my Monk could be dealing:

From Flurry of Blows damage dice - 2d10x7 = 140

Not as a Martial Artist you won't. (No Unarmed damage advancement.)

I'm not aware of Martial Artist losing the unarmed damage progression. They lose their ki pool and some of the abilities that synergise with it in exchange for some fighter bonuses, but there is no mention of this loss in the book that I can see...

CMB at level 20

CMB = 20 + 6 + 4 (Greater Grapple/Greater Trip)
CMB = 30

even better than the 21 you were hoping for...


Monk at Lvl 6

CMB = 6 (Maneuver Training) + 4 (Strength) + 0 (Medium) + 2 (Improved Grapple)
CMB = 12

I have an extra +1 as an in adventure reward for a +13 total

Improved Trip will also give you a +2 when tripping (and you can apply weapon bonuses [MW, enhancement])

You can use a trip attack as part of a flurry of blows, which means you can knock them down and then keep pounding on them :)

With the grappling, you need to make the grapple one round and then in a subsequent round if you maintain the grapple can move your opponent. If you move them into danger they get a free attempt to break free with a +4 bonus. Then you can definitely drop them.

Shuriken's aren't ususally recoverable unfortunately.

They are treated as ammunition for puroses of drawing, crafting masterwork and what happens to them after they are thrown. This means that if they hit they are destroyed and if they miss there is a 50% chance of them being recoverable.

As you get into the later levels the biggest issue with grappling is likely to be the size of your opponents so Enlarge Person becomes a useful spell for your allies to have available for you.

The Monk gets full BAB progression for combat maneuvers from third level which will help a lot. You can use Weapon Focus to boost your Grappling skills and as you take Improved and Greater versions of the skills you gain useful bonuses also.

My Level 6 Monk is +13 for most CMB plus any weapon based bonuses where applicable (18 Str). The last encounter we had saw him use a Trip in the first part of a Flurry to knock the BBEG down and then Stunning Fist to stun the opponent and it didn't take much from then to finish the encounter (even the iterative attack hit).

Won't always work but it can be pretty handy when it does. Knock 'em down and then gain benefit of a -4 to their AC and they will provoke attacks of opportunity if they try to stand up...

Bandavaar the Brave wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
Despite being named "martial artist", the best use of the archetype is to Rage/Flurry with a temple sword -- the dropping of alignment requirement literally begs you to.

Haha, a hand to hand combat class performs better with a sword....that's really odd. Still, I didn't think you could flurry with weapons, but I guess if you're using a special monk weapon, that's no problem.

I don't suppose you could do it with a bastard sword in each hand if you're part Barbarian (JotunGrip perhaps?), part Monk though?

You can Flurry with any Monk weapon. Monks aren't necessarily proficient with all Monk weapons, but Temple sword is one of them. With a d8 damage and the Trip quality, it would actually be a pretty good option for you.

The Trip quality means you can use it when tripping and add all of it's relative bonuses to your CMB roll and if you fail by 10 can then drop it to avoid going prone. Also, it can be used two handed when making a single attack - for those times when you can't Flurry - for even better Power Attack damage.

it also gives you a slashing damage option. The only downside is not having both hands free for grappling. You could drop it if being held or get Quick Draw to enable easy arming/disarming of the sword.

I would also recommend using Shurikens for a short-range ranged attack option - you can Flurry with them and they get your Strength bonus to damage. You could even get them in Cold Iron etc for overcoming Damage Reductions

Apart from the situation where the 5 foot movement isn't a 5 foot step as per the rules, the Following Step feat is an Immediate Action, of which you only have one per round (or one Swift Action) which means even if you were able to follow the first attack that would be the end of the chain.

What would be fun, however would be to use the 10' movement and the 5' pushing attack to keep whacking the opponent back to the square they were in previously, keeping them corralled as per the suggestions above.

Lord Pel wrote:
I'd say 'Pinning' is acceptable. RAW, the Pinned condition just says that the pinned creature is tightly bound. It just means that they are even more restricted in their movements than with a normal grapple. HOW this is accomplished is not relevant. Maybe the pinning creature has the pinned creature by the pinky and is painfully bending it back.

+1 on this

Effectively a Grapple in Pathfinder is the equivalent of a hold in wrestling. You have a tight grip on your opponent that allows you to hamper their movement and actions.

A Pin is the more traditional grapple where you have your opponent severely hampered in some sort of hold. This can certainly be achieved in-flight, although attention needs to be paid to how the pinning creature and the pinned creature are remaining in the air - magical flight will work within certain weight restrictions, but normal mechanical flight may not survive the pinning processes

Actually, it sounds a lot like Vodafone in Australia
- it only works once per day,
- you can only get ten words out before it cuts out
- and the range is only 300 feet...

Ring of Twitter

As far as I'm concerned only weapons with Trip as a quality can be used when trying to trip.

If a longsword or dagger is being held while attempting a trip then the trip attempt is made with a leg or the off-hand (if there is one) etc and there is no benefit gained from the weapon being held (they're lucky to not be penalised...)

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I have to agree that I don't like the "catch-all" nature of the FAQ entry for this. Here is my "homebrew" version.

Trip Weapons

Normally Trip attempts are made without a weapon. Weapons which have the Trip quality, however, can be used when making a trip attempt and pass on their relevant bonuses to the CMB -- such as Weapon Focus, Magical Enhancements, Masterwork.

A Trip weapon can also be dropped in the event of a failed attempt which would normally see the attacker knocked prone -- a failure by 10 or more. The exception to this is Unarmed Strike which can be used as a Trip weapon for applying bonuses and enhancements, but may not be dropped to avoid being knocked prone.

Run, Just Run wrote:
any other tips are useful.

The last character I played was a Rogue / Monk and I found that after points were expended into Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception and Disable Devices I could spread the points elsewhere

I spent some in Knowledge (local), Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Climb, Swim (Serpent's Skull has a few rivers to negotiate) before deciding to get at least one point across each of the class skills for the class bonus - a real skill monkey style (Int of 14)

Realistically though, I used Perception and Stealth more than anything else.

Climb, Sense Motive and Swim have made an appearance, but Acrobatics has only been required a couple of times (there haven't been too many issues getting into flanking positions).

Knowledge (Local) can be useful when trying to discern the next step or current situation when in urban areas.

Escape Artist and Sense Motive can be useful early on as Grapples can be hard to break with low BAB and knowing what the NPCs, monsters are "thinking" before you make the wrong move can be invaluable.

Think about the synergy with your ability scores as well as how they match with your party's strengths. I stopped putting skills into Sense Motive as one of the other characters was 4 or 5 ahead of me and I was redundant most of the time. Sometimes you will need skill points to give you a chance to use certain skills effectively - ie Climb or Swim when you have low Strength can be deadly without some points to assist

As has been mentioned above, however, you should focus on maximising the main skills and then spend future points as you get a feel for the adventure's requirements and the sorts of skills your GM is calling checks for.

Run, Just Run wrote:
so uh how should I place skill points?

Work out the skills you think you will be using the most and focus on them. Any additional points can be spread around the secondary skills that are sometimes useful.

With Monk at ~4 points per level you won't have many to spread around, but Ninja has a lot more and will allow you to bring a couple more skills up to useful levels

Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception are probably your primary skills and should be maximised

Sense Motive, Escape Artist, Disguise, Diplomacy, Climb, Swim are probably useful as well

One of the main reasons for this wording in the ruling is for Intelligence and the associated skill points

They wanted skill points to be available retrospectively with Intelligence boosting items, but didn't want it to be a case of disabling and then re-enabling the device to allocate skill points to different skills for the current situation. Instead, the skill points are only available when the item has been worn for a minimum of 24 hours and are not "resettable" without that 24 hour period.

Obviously the spell options above are also valid reasons. Otherwise things like strength bonus and hit points apply, but the hit points are temporary for the first 24 hours and therefore lost in the same way as temporary hit points from Aid or similar effects if the item is lost, removed etc.

Khrysaor wrote:

There is no demand on CHA for a ninja if you have another class that has a ki pool.

But the DCs for the Ninja tricks and various other specialties of the Ninja are based on Charisma, making it still important.

Khrysaor wrote:
how is rogue reducing MAD?

By giving enough extra synergy with Dexterity to allow the dumping of Strength to focus on Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers to allow Dex based attacks. Combine this with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists or Weapon and the damage is based off Dex also.

The traditional problem with Monks is their need for Strength for to hit and damage, Dexterity for AC, acrobatics and stealth, Constitution for survival (as a melee class) and Wisdom for their AC, stunning fist DC, ki pool etc. It makes it difficult for them to focus on any one stat without sacrificing some other aspect of their abilities.

The Rogue adds extra benefit for Dex justifying more focus on this area and the sneak attack damage can somewhat compensate for the loss of Strength damage until an "Agile" solution can be found.

mdt wrote:
I'd go for a lower Monk level, say 15th level monk, and 5th level rogue. 5th level rogue get's you 3d6 per SA, and at 15th level, you can have a monk's robe to give you the 20th level monk perks.

Rogue 5 gives an extra d6 of sneak attack, but misses a BAB point

You could even use 10/10 and take the feat that allows for half your non-monk levels to count toward unarmed damage

The problem with dropping too many Monk levels however is the loss of BAB and the additional Flurry Attack

Name Violation wrote:

ninja > rogue for this concept IMHO. more synergy with the ki pool stuff and invisibility (vanish). I'd take an archtype for monk like hungry ghost, or weapon master

also at 20th, 2d8+2d6(sometimes) per hit isnt too great. you'll need a lot more tricks to be a viable threat to thing

Problem with Ninja is the Charisma demands

- the benefit of the Rogue path is being able to remove one of the MAD aspects (dropping STR) rather than adding another
- the Ki doesn't completely stack as you only choose one stat to use for determining the amount

4 levels of rogue
- two talents (fast stealth, bleed), uncanny dodge, 2d6 sneak, trap abilities

16 Monk (use monk robes for maximum damage and AC bonus)

Str 10
Dex 15 (+2 human)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 10

Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvres, Improved Initiative, Grapple and Trip feats, Combat Reflexes, Toughness etc

Maximise stealth, acrobatics, perception and disable devices for a fast stealthy scout who can detect and disarm traps with ease

Get Amulet of Mighty Fists (or weapon) with Agile for Dex damage

I am also approaching the start of a campaign and was looking for a Hit Dice rule to use

The current campaign that I am playing in uses a system where we roll and can take the result or re-roll with the maximum reduced by 1 until we are "happy"


d8 gives 5 (can take 5 result or re-roll)
a. re-roll comes 8 (HP is 7)
b. re-roll comes 3 (can take 3 or re-roll with 6 maximum)

I was thinking of 3/4HD but one of my players was worried that there is then no opportunity for characters to get really lucky and have maximum HP for any given level

My idea is to give them half and then they roll the second half

d6 = 3 + d3
d8 = 4 + d4
d10 = 5 + d5
d12 = 6 + d6
(+ CON of course)

which should give them about 3/4 average, but with the chance for "epic" results on occassion

I don't want them to have too low hp, especially in the early levels, but I won't be so forgiving if a character does die...

Anyone have any thoughts they would like to share?

My Dwarf Monk was human to begin with, but an unfortunate encounter saw him reincarnated as a dwarf
- Needless to say, he's not the happiest dwarf around and probably not going to be much fun to be around... (Charisma is now 7)

The nature of spiked stones, spike growth

These are supposed to be difficult to detect, even if you are among them. This means that it could very easily take an intelligent being several moved squares to realise that they are in a "minefield".

I would suggest that it is reasonable to say that a character must be able to perceive the stones or growth to be able to definitively avoid stepping into those squares as a conscious decision, until they have been affected by several (wisdom check would be fair).

An animal (int 2) would just think that the ground was bad and continue to move until it exited the affected area, became crippled or died

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