| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
now you've done it! i've just decided to make a campaign where the Eidolons are only pretending to be stupid as they manipulate their summoners into preparing the world for an Eidolon takeover!
Does it matter in most games, where a player is directing the eidolon and using tried and true tactics even if the character hasn't seen battle before?
Edit: Now, if the DM calls you on it...
"Most" as in the number of entries? Because the population of Planes is likely 90%+ dretches, lemures and lantern archons (all below intelligence or outright mindless).
Mostly, I think it's because it's a creature that is being controlled by the summoner. If it were really that much smarter, it would likely have it's own agenda, rather than being a near-slave to the will of this mortal.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@FuelDrop I would play in such a game. Preferably as an eidolon...
noted. you can be the synthisist, get the best of both worlds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
These are the ones that got suckered into serving these mortal arcane casters called Summoners - they're predisposed to lower intelligence.
Also, summoners probably don't want eidolons that are smarter than they are...
You keep forgetting the planar animals for populations of the planes - I think that celestial badgers and other such things by far outnumber the archons them selves.
Eidolons are more than just a little planar pets ;)
You're only summoning a manifestation of the creature to this plane. The rest of him is busy at home contemplating its navel.
.. or whatever it is that things that weren't born have instead of navels
I was also disappointed to see no high INT eidolon base form option when UM came out.
As it stands, the current eidolon will never be a very good skill-user, even if you dump all of the stat boost evolutions into INT. Sure, there's the +8 skill evolution, but you never get enough evolution points to use it on all the skills (there are 35, you max out at 26) unless you blow most of your feats on extra evolution points. And even then you don't have room for the stat boosts, leaving you at just the +8. Characters (even NPCs) will easily outstrip that, meaning that you may as well play a Fighter and hire NPC Experts. You might say "Give it scrolls/ wands," but eidolons have mediocre CHA as well, so the NPC Expert outshines them there too (and you can have as many as you can pay for).
I'm not saying that the eidolon should be an obscene combat monster AND have a high INT. There would have to be a lowered STR and CON as a trade off to be sure. I just think it's disappointing that ALL of the eidolon base forms and all but one of the available evolutions are geared towards combat. There simply is no RAW option for a really decent non-combat oriented eidolon.
As the OP said, we know outsiders are more varied than that.
My main issue with the low INT is that it pretty much precludes any chance of an Eidolon taking Combat Expertise (a feat that many other useful feats hide behind as a prereq) until at least level 11 (that's if you put as many resources as possible into raising its INT score).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that there int should have been 10(wis12 cha13) especially for those of us you would have liked a magic based or skill monkey Eidolon instead of being stuck with combat monster as the only real option.
I agree that there int should have been 10(wis12 cha13) especially for those of us you would have liked a magic based or skill monkey Eidolon instead of being stuck with combat monster as the only real option.
That strikes me as something done by design.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Story wise, They are creatures of another plane and thus don't quite understand certain things in this world that would otherwise be different. Like a European Knight in Edo, Japan (Stupid doors! Why can't the people use forks like the rest of us!)
Game wise, They get a set amount of Skills, and magic evolutions are Charisma Based. Not like they need INT anyway.
I agree that there int should have been 10(wis12 cha13) especially for those of us you would have liked a magic based or skill monkey Eidolon instead of being stuck with combat monster as the only real option.That strikes me as something done by design.
They get 6+mInt skills per level out of the gate. This already puts them as skill monkeys. The -2 (one point to Int will make it just -1, giving 5 skills) just puts them as half-way decent skill monkeys.
And quite frankly, their Skilled Evolution more than makes up for it.
.. or whatever it is that things that weren't born have instead of navels
My wild guess: is a matter of evolution points spent.
I agree that there int should have been 10(wis12 cha13) especially for those of us you would have liked a magic based or skill monkey Eidolon instead of being stuck with combat monster as the only real option.That strikes me as something done by design.They get 6+mInt skills per level out of the gate...
So do NPC Experts. Except the NPC will have a positive INT, so at 1st level it will probably have twice the skill points that the eidolon has. The NPC will also likely have a better WIS and CHA as well, even with the basic stat array, and that's not counting race. So the Summoner has to choose between better stats or a one time +8 or any other useful ability, while the Fighter's pet Expert starts off with good stats and more skill points.
Well then, I guess the designers wanted the eidolon to be bad* at something.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Summoners are already the Win button.
So do NPC Experts. Except the NPC will have a positive INT, so at 1st level it will probably have twice the skill points that the eidolon has. The NPC will also likely have a better WIS and CHA as well, even with the basic stat array, and that's not counting race. So the Summoner has to choose between better stats or a one time +8 or any other useful ability, while the Fighter's pet Expert starts off with good stats and more skill points.
Wait, I'm confused. You're complaining because hired experts are better at skills than an eidolon?
...Why not just hire the experts?
I guess I'm confused by more than just that. Why aren't you complaining about a Wizard's familiar's lack of skills? Or an animal companion's inability to become a skill monkey? The eidolon is a class ability, just like the animal companion and familiar. Except the eidolon is already better at skills than BOTH of those things. Is the fact that it's not better than someone specifically created for skills (i.e., experts) such an atrocity?
tl;dr
Who said eidolons were supposed to be better than experts? You should probably take it up with whoever that person is. They're the one who lied to you.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
What I don't get about complaining that an Eidolon isn't as good as someone else at skills is that the Eidolon is already better at skills than most PCs. (On top of everything else he can do.) What's wrong with him not being better than an NPC whose entire job (in other words, the entire reason he'd exist in the campaign setting) is skills? Is it not okay that he's just a bit less skilled than an NPC whose entire focus is skills?
...Why not just hire the experts?
That is, in fact, my whole point. I hope this doesn't sound snide, but that's what happens when you tl;dr.
When a PC sets themselves to something, they should be better at it than an NPC. That's why the NPC classes exist- to make the PCs feel heroic. By using an NPC class as a metric, I mean to say that the eidolon can't fill this function, because even when geared towards skills, a character with an NPC class can do better. A hired NPC bard or rogue would be an even better skill monkey than either of them.
This is okay. Fighters/ Barbarians have very few skill points their class isn't skill focused and Bards/ Rogues have lots because their class is. That's a part of their flavor. However, eidolons are presented as these amorphous, customizable reflections of the summoner. It just kind of grates RP-wise that they can only be combat monsters.
They really aren't that customizable at all- you can choose between a good combat build and a bad combat build.
But you can. The rules are all there.
i agree with cheapy. we had an Eidonlon in a campaign recently, and it resulted in the monk swapping with a munchkin fighter just to be effective, and it was such a skill monkey that it left the rest of us for dead. My blaster in that campaign ended up swapping out most of his spells for travel spells just so we could keep up with the damned thing, as it was a mount for it's gnome summoner (and due to mounted combat rules it was virtually unhittable. add flying and reach on its bite, and we're talking a very nasty little snake-thing.) as it's unlikely that the summoner and Eidolon are going to have overlapping skills, it works out that the class is getting the same skills as a rogue, - the eidolon's int penalty. even so the summoner and summonee can focus on a tight band of skills (6+summoner's int to be exact.) and master them better than almost anyone else (including rogues, the games dedicated skill monkeys). the summoner class already has enough advantages: full caster, can use teamwork feats with class feature, pet fighter, free darkvision, the list goes on. low int on the Eidolons is one of the things that prevents them overshadowing absolutely everyone outright.
i know this isn't going to change most of your minds, but i leave you with a request. please factor in the summoner's skills as well when talking about the eidolon, as the two are a matched pair controlled by the same player.
the summoner class already has enough advantages: full caster
The Summoner is not a full caster. The Summoner is a 3/4 caster.
the summoner class already has enough advantages: full casterThe Summoner is not a full caster. The Summoner is a 3/4 caster.
point conceeded, though they get several higher level spells at lower level to compensate (*cough* haste *cough*).
Is it just me, or is OP complaining about the fact that his class feature can only replace one member of the party?
|
While I don't think just increasing the Eidolons int is a good idea, maybe a base form that focuses on mental, instead of physical abilities would be interesting, call it the sage, make it humanoid in appearance.
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft. ; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (Good); Attack - ; Ability Scores[b/] Str 7, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 13; [b]Free Evolutions Basic magic (Choose one acid splash, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, ray of frost, stabilize, or touch of fatigue), Skilled, Limbs (arms), Unnatural aura.
Just throwing this out, haven't really thought it through, but there's no way this thing is filling in for the fighter.
If you're going to do it that way, why make it look (inherently) humanoid? It could have a presupposed baseline of whatever and, if it was a problem, not being a base of humanoid could even help: it lacks feet to move well (or some such) and lacks hands to manipulate things as keenly (or something similar).
That isn't to prohibit it from having a humanoid form, but just saying that it doesn't have to have one as a base, if that's a problem somehow or would give said "sage" an unfair advantage.
Then again, I've got no skin in this game. No one I know is interested in playing summoners 'round these parts.
|
|
The base form loses any natural weapon evolutions and gains one Skilled evolution instead.
I like the idea of giving them Basic magic but I worry that may be seen as OP.
The free evolutions for all the base forms are all bought from a pool of 5 points, so just switching out all the attacks for the skilled evolution doesn't necessarily balance out. Basic magic is worth 1 evolution point and is available from 1st level so it shouldn't be unbalancing.
As for simply switching the ability scores, a 0 point evolution that can be only taken at 1st level and can't be removed? The swap would be the same as you've written, and change the str/dex bonus the eidolon normally gets to an Int/wis bonus instead.
I'll have to think a bit more about the natural attacks, though there isn't really any reason the shouldn't have them, theres just less need.
Maybe "Smart Eidolon" should be an alternative build similar to "Small Eidolon" -- it still picks a base form and size, but other modifications are stacked with those selections. For example:
Eliminate +2 natural armor bonus (all base forms seem to get this one). Replace with Basic Magic and Skilled as extra free evolutions.
Reduce max. attacks by 2. Caster level for all spell-lika abilities equals Summoner level.
Modify stats as follows:
Str -4 (-2 if Small)
Dex -4 (-6 if Small)
Con -2
Int +6
Wis +0
Cha +4
Would this approach work? Or would it be overpowered?
|
I don't mean "it's a terrible class feature", I mean the eidolon is almost as dumb as your average ogre.
Why? Aren't the vast majority of outsiders at least average human level intelligence?
I think a better question is "Why are a First-Worlder summoner Archetype's Eidolons stupid?" It has less hit points, less bab, and seems built to be a skill monkey... except they don't get any more skill points than a regular Eidolon? Doesn't seem to fit the fey concept very well...
I agree if your eidolon is a Fey you should get better mental stats maybe the modifiers should be -2str +2dex -2con +4int +4cha.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that there int should have been 10(wis12 cha13) especially for those of us you would have liked a magic based or skill monkey Eidolon instead of being stuck with combat monster as the only real option.That strikes me as something done by design.They get 6+mInt skills per level out of the gate. This already puts them as skill monkeys. The -2 (one point to Int will make it just -1, giving 5 skills) just puts them as half-way decent skill monkeys.
And quite frankly, their Skilled Evolution more than makes up for it.
Agreed. As a Master Summoner I get precious few evolution points and skill ranks to work with, but my eddy is still more than capable of serving as the party's primary scout/rogue with Skilled evolutions in Stealth, Perception and Disable Device. Oh, and Use Magic Device as well so that he can participate in combat with wands. Add to that darksight and the ability to communicate telepathically and eventually the flight evolution and well, no one has ever complained about my Eddy being too 'dumb' to get the job done.
My take on why they're 'stupid' is that the smart ones don't allow themselves to be bound in the first place.
Perhaps it's time to publish an intelligent, noncombat eidolon?
Perhaps it's time to publish an intelligent, noncombat eidolon?
I have a player with a Summoner in my Kingmaker campaign and I have to say it's been very disruptive.
Adding a high intelligence is out of the question without nerfing other abilities.If I ever run another AP, Summoner, as written, will be banned.
That's why I said noncombat ;)
In what way was the summoner disruptive?
Spent too much time lounging about inside the pokeball?
Summoner is a class. like any class it should be strong at somethings and weak at others.
No wizards should (as a base class) be able to out melle a fighter. by the same token no fighter should be able to out cast a wizard. Asking for Edilons to be able to do ANYTHING is kind of along those lines. in my opinion.
having said that... talk to your GM. if the GM wants you to be able to cast a smart/weak edilon he is entirely capable of tweaking the rules in order to fulfill your wishes.
as to the OP...
I don't mean "it's a terrible class feature", I mean the eidolon is almost as dumb as your average ogre.
Edilons are not so much a real creature as they are a physical manifestation of the casters subconscious. so their intelligence (in my opinion) represents a fraction of the mind of the caster. kind of like a computer sub-process that runs during unused cycles.
they should not be confused with summoning an otherwise independent sentient being like a deamon, angel, etc.