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I was wondering how most people would think about using leftover starting gold to scribe scrolls to have as starting equipment for new characters. Would most people allow that or say no you gotta do it in game? Just curious.
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I would allow.
Edit- For clarification. The character had a life before you sat at the table to read their intro. Starting money is what they had acquired in life prior to this point in time. If you allowed them to buy anything assume it is okay for them to be allowed to have at some point spent 'extra' money available to them to make a scroll.
2cents
It depends heavily on the social contract and expectations of the group itself. I'd probably allow it, but many might not. It's entirely up to the group and what they're comfortable with.
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I would allow players to start with whatever they can afford.
Although, do note that it's "starting wealth" not "starting gold." So a 1st level scroll is worth 25gp and accounts for 25gp worth of the character's wealth. That is, I do not allow characters to craft at half value at creation.
I would allow players to start with whatever they can afford.
Although, do note that it's "starting wealth" not "starting gold." So a 1st level scroll is worth 25gp and accounts for 25gp worth of the character's wealth. That is, I do not allow characters to craft at half value at creation.
Ah, that's a very good distinction, never thought of that.
I would allow.
Edit- For clarification. The character had a life before you sat at the table to read their intro. Starting money is what they had acquired in life prior to this point in time. If you allowed them to buy anything assume it is okay for them to be allowed to have at some point spent 'extra' money available to them to make a scroll.
2cents
+1 I would allow this as well
I would allow players to start with whatever they can afford.
Although, do note that it's "starting wealth" not "starting gold." So a 1st level scroll is worth 25gp and accounts for 25gp worth of the character's wealth. That is, I do not allow characters to craft at half value at creation.
Nice, I think I'll do it that way, too.
It seems a little silly to me that if you have 100gp before the game starts you can either spend them on 50gp worth of stuff or keep them and make 100gp worth of stuff the first time you get a few days off. It is almost like the DM would have to push the PCs into the first adventure real fast to make sure there's no time to scribe. If the party decides to stop and scribe/craft for a few days what's wrong with that?
I'd not only let people scribe scrolls but craft any items they're capable of crafting when they take 10 (or any items they'd care to roll the Craft checks for). This way there is some advantage to having the otherwise kind of lame Craft skills. I guess that's just how I feel though. I can't find anything in the rules which says that you can spend starting wealth on crafting, but I also can't find anything that says you can keep any leftover gold which you don't spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment (the latter seems to be universally assumed)
But, if one of my players had invested in ranks of craft, and wanted to take the risk to spend his moolah on making a masterwork weapon, then i would allow it.
It seems a little silly to me that if you have 100gp before the game starts you can either spend them on 50gp worth of stuff or keep them and make 100gp worth of stuff the first time you get a few days off. It is almost like the DM would have to push the PCs into the first adventure real fast to make sure there's no time to scribe. If the party decides to stop and scribe/craft for a few days what's wrong with that?It may be entertaining to note that the section of rules that explains how to handle this situation says
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment.It does not actually say that you are allowed to keep the leftover gold - and since it is stating what you can do with the gold it is implying anything other than what is listed can not be done.
With that said, I do not allow characters with item creation feats to apply the "I created it" pricing during the character creation/starting wealth process.
It's not about whether or not the character had the time to craft items before the story begins - it's about letting everyone start on a level playing field, and making sure that said level playing field also matches up to the expected power level of the campaign.
Otherwise the starting wealth section would simply say "You also start with any equipment that your GM agrees is fitting to your life experiences up to this point."
Example: Wizard says "I take at least 2 days off from my job as a librarian every week, so I've been scribing scrolls and storing them up for a while," to justify that he should be able to have twice the number of scrolls to start with - instead of being limited by their 25 gp cost.
I say he pays 25 gold, you say he pays 12.5.
Fighter says "My grandfather was a famed lieutenant in the imperial army and passed his specially commissioned suit of armor down to my father, who kept it well cared for but never used it and has...
Wow, that seems heavy handed to me. The game may start on day one. But the point is that the characters existed prior to day one of gaming. As long as the value does not exceed what they are supposed to start with then, I don't see why DMs should be such a hard ass to not allow them the fruits of their labor. If they have a craft skill and want to have invested a portion of their starting wealth into products of that craft, then why not? Is this a control issue? Why cant a character with a weapons smith background not have invested stock on hand, that he created, when the game starts? Why make such a fuss over it when you can just backstory a week or two of personal one on one roleplaying between you and that character to go over some crafting rolls? Unless the game begins with them in a limited environment, like a prison, or something I just don't see the reasoning in such punishment.
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My Fighter has Craft:(Weapons), so he spent some time in his past to make a long sword at 1/3 cost. Then he sold it at 1/2 cost (did I mention he was a blacksmith?) Then he took that money and made more swords and sold them. He did this for 10 years. And that's how my Fighter has 20,000gp starting gold.
Seriously, though, I don't care how a player's character gets his equipment. He could buy it, craft it, find it, inherit it, whatever. The rules say that a character starts with X gp worth of gear. If you allow a player to craft at creation for 1/2 or 1/3 cost, then he doesn't start with X, he starts with 2 to 3 times X, and that's blatantly against the rules.
If a player wants to craft after the game start, Great! He can do that, but only AFTER creation. If at 1st level he wants to take a day or two to craft a couple scrolls it probably won't affect the game much, but what if a character comes into a campaign at level 12? Sure, he could take a year off to craft all his equipment, but is that a good reason to let him craft at creation?
If I want a character to start with more gp, I'll give it to him. The reason I don't allow a Fighter with a weaponsmith background to have "invested stack at hand" is because he already does. That's what starting wealth is. The money and equipment the Fighter has earned over his lifetime by being a weaponsmith, or what have you.
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I recognize that starting wealth is supposed to represent wealth not gold, but I don't want to encourage players to do the patently silly act of holding onto that wealth until the game starts to craft.
I think about it this way: They spend that starting wealth on the magic item materials, not the scroll. Those magic item materials are then used to make the item because their character can do that. What difference does it make if this happens just after the start of the game or just before?
Each character begins play with a number of gold pieces that he can spend on weapons, armor, and other equipment.It does not actually say that you are allowed to keep the leftover gold - and since it is stating what you can do with the gold it is implying anything other than what is listed can not be done.
It would be a bit silly if a starting character is completely decked out in magical gear, but would have to beg for a piece of silver to buy food or a piece of gold for a room at an inn :)
I don't think everything needs to be spelled out in the rules. Sometimes common sense applies.
I recognize that starting wealth is supposed to represent wealth not gold, but I don't want to encourage players to do the patently silly act of holding onto that wealth until the game starts to craft.
I think about it this way: They spend that starting wealth on the magic item materials, not the scroll. Those magic item materials are then used to make the item because their character can do that. What difference does it make if this happens just after the start of the game or just before?
The difference for a single scroll? The difference is about 4 hours. This may or may not be a significant difference depending on the scope of your campaign.
For the starting gear of lv 20 character joining late in an already established campaign, the difference is about 5 years. Again, this may or may not be significant depending on the scope of the campaign.
Isn't just easier, though, to say: "No crafting at creation" and if crafting during the campaign is trivial, great, nothing gained nothing lost, and if crafting is a hassle, well, I don't have to change the rule.
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I recognize that starting wealth is supposed to represent wealth not gold, but I don't want to encourage players to do the patently silly act of holding onto that wealth until the game starts to craft.
I think about it this way: They spend that starting wealth on the magic item materials, not the scroll. Those magic item materials are then used to make the item because their character can do that. What difference does it make if this happens just after the start of the game or just before?
The difference for a single scroll? The difference is about 4 hours. This may or may not be a significant difference depending on the scope of your campaign.
For the starting gear of lv 20 character joining late in an already established campaign, the difference is about 5 years. Again, this may or may not be significant depending on the scope of the campaign.
Isn't just easier, though, to say: "No crafting at creation" and if crafting during the campaign is trivial, great, nothing gained nothing lost, and if crafting is a hassle, well, I don't have to change the rule.
You see, this is actually the case where I think it matters most that you allow pre-game item creation. At 20th level you can no longer level and are unlikely to play for much longer, so what benefit do you get out of those item creation feats? If you had played to 20th you certainly would have gotten *some* benefit.
This means that you're eliminating the "crafter" concept to characters created before they had the wealth to craft, which is an unnecessary thing IMO.
At worst I would tell a player that they could only use the feat on wealth they would have acquired *after* the level they take it, but that's probably a pointless restriction so I don't apply it.
TL;DR - They took a feat that lets them get more out of their gold, let them use it on gold they start with as long as the campaign's set-up doesn't preclude that possibility.
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@thenobledrake: FWIW, I usually also let players use any craft skills they have before the game starts as well.
I don't let players use their abilities to earn more money before the campaign starts, but I do let them use it to be more efficient with their money. Why? Because it's assumed everyone earned X amount in one way or another (or maybe even just got lucky and found it), but if someone invests in a skill/feat whose purpose is to get more bang for your buck, then by god they better get more bang for their buck.
@thenobledrake: FWIW, I usually also let players use any craft skills they have before the game starts as well.
I don't let players use their abilities to earn more money before the campaign starts, but I do let them use it to be more efficient with their money. Why? Because it's assumed everyone earned X amount in one way or another (or maybe even just got lucky and found it), but if someone invests in a skill/feat whose purpose is to get more bang for your buck, then by god they better get more bang for their buck.
So, if I invest in a skill or feat whose purpose is "to get more bang for my buck" I can use it to make stuff and get extra wealth, but I can't use it to make gold so I can buy the same amount of stuff and get the same amount of wealth?
That seems to unfairly discriminate against most methods of generating wealth.
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@thenobledrake: FWIW, I usually also let players use any craft skills they have before the game starts as well.
I don't let players use their abilities to earn more money before the campaign starts, but I do let them use it to be more efficient with their money. Why? Because it's assumed everyone earned X amount in one way or another (or maybe even just got lucky and found it), but if someone invests in a skill/feat whose purpose is to get more bang for your buck, then by god they better get more bang for their buck.
So, if I invest in a skill or feat whose purpose is "to get more bang for my buck" I can use it to make stuff and get extra wealth, but I can't use it to make gold so I can buy the same amount of stuff and get the same amount of wealth?
That seems to unfairly discriminate against most methods of generating wealth.
No, not really, because the methods of generating wealth are (A) skills and (B) adventuring. The latter is your wealth by level chart, and the former is completely trivial in quantity compared to the latter (and can be treated as rounding error, especially once you factor in taxes and other upkeep that character must pay to do business).
And even then, a skill is not as big of an investment as a feat (which must be coupled with a skill to work). And the feats are the difference between paying 400k for gear, and 200k for the same gear (potentially) while spending only 2 years on the gear (assuming accelerated crafting). It would take a character with a +30 profession mod about 200 years to make up the difference, or a character with a +30 perform mod about 52 years (not counting taxes and living costs, which could easily double those timelines).
And to reiterate a previous argument: I don't want to see players holding onto their wealth until 2 seconds after the game starts then saying "Alright, NOW I'm crafting." Any time a rule causes a player to take a completely silly action for the sake of getting usefulness out of their ability, I question the rule. In this case, it's not even necessarily a rule (it's not exactly spelled out).
I'm afraid that the two sides of this argument can never see eye to eye. The only thing worthy of any actual "rules" debate is whether or not PCs created at 1st level can keep any excess coins which they don't spend. As pointed out previously, the rules don't say that they can. It is tempting to turn that into an argument that since PCs can keep the coins despite it being unstated they can craft with the coins despite it being unstated, but honestly it pretty much comes down to DM fiat for home games. It isn't a question in PFS games since no crafting is allowed there (at least not of magic items).
One case where pregame crafting or the lack thereof becomes more important to game balance is when a gnome has the trait (maybe Master Tinker?) which allows you to be proficient in the use of items you have crafted.
PC1:"I am Hashimoto, swordsmith of the Golden Crane Clan."
PC2:"Why don't you have a sword then?"
PC1:"I was saving my starting wealth so I can craft a masterwork sword. In the meantime I will use a bokken."
PC2:"What's a bokken?"
PC1:"It is a wooden practice sword"
PC2:"That sounds cool. How much do those cost?"
DM:"Actually it is a stick he found on the ground which counts as a club. It does 1d6 damage, and it is a club, not a 'bokken'. There are no bokken in my world. These are no katanas either, just masterwork bastard swords, and you don't have time to make one because now is the time for my awesome adventure!"
PC1:"Why not wait so I can craft my katana, I mean bastard sword?"
DM:"The party's moms all got kidnapped by goblins. You have to go rescue them right now!"
PC1:"My mom is in the far away land of Tian Xia."
DM:"Maybe these goblins have connections to some far greater, globe spanning Evil which you will only later begin to suspect. Anyhow, you need to go right now or your mom is getting sacrificed to Squealy Nord!"
PC1:"I feel sad..."
or sometimes
PC1:"I am Hashimoto, swordsmith of the Golden Crane Clan."
PC2:"Wow, did you craft that completely average sword there?"
PC1:"No, I bought it at the General Store. For some reason I've been completely unable to craft items up to this point. I feel like I could easily craft a masterwork weapon now, but an unseen force called DM keeps forcing me to go into caves and kill monsters instead."
PC2:"That's too bad. Do you plan on continuing to increase your smithing skill?"
PC1:"Yes, there's something called Master Craftsman which will let me imbue blades with magic!"
PC2:"So you'll forge a fine new blade and imbue it with magic?"
PC1:"No, I'll buy a fine new blade at Ye Masterwork Weapon Shoppe and imbue it with magic. The mysterious power called DM will not give me time to use the Craft skill, which for simulationist purposes takes a very long time to use."
PC2:"I feel sad..."
As an aside, the Master Craftsman feat was a great concession by Paizo to let Craft skills matter more and allow the guy who forges his own sword archetype have a little fun. Unfortunately, the fun only comes at higher levels, and it would still be a lot more fun (to me) if it could be adding enchantments to the trusty masterwork blade you started out the game with instead of buying a masterwork sword off the shelf and enchanting it. Sure, the DM can hand wave the crafting time, but why should he or she do that at 9th level when he or she wouldn't do it at first?
I let people use crafting cost for one item per item creation feat, and for one item per rank in crafting when they start out. The rest has to be paid normally even if you flavor it as crafting it.
I'm with Quantum Steve when it comes to the RAW and find it fair ruling, but I also like to encourage people to use craft skills and such.
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I do not see what the problem is with item creation feats or craft skills... let them use it at character creation to spend money, but not to make.
So you can scribe the scrolls you know for half- if you can craft it safely with a take 10 you can make some mundane junk for a third. If you've got the skills to craft (and still the gold) to make something masterworked, more power to you.
Yes, this increases your effective starting gold. That's what feats do- they change the rules slightly. Normally, characters at creation only get their hit die + con modifier in hit points... but the toughness feat breaks that rule.
I do not see what the problem is with item creation feats or craft skills... let them use it at character creation to spend money, but not to make.
The problem is that, depending on starting level, it can more or less double your WBL - something that should be well beyond the limits of a single feat. For example, craft magic arms and armor can easily grant you a +1 bonus to attack, damage, and armor class for a single feat - compare that to another decent feat, like Weapon Focus, and it's obviously not any resemblance of balance.
It's also not RAW (note post 3 in this thread) so what you're doing is taking a feat that allows you to easier customize and gain access to magic items, and house-ruling it into additionally increasing your WBL with a huge amount.
By RAW, magic item creation feats are somewhat weak and the crafting skills are mostly useless (a few exceptions such as alchemy with the right feats). With your house rule, magic item creation feats become the no doubt most powerful feats in the game, especially if you allow custom items (which by RAW are up to the DM so can't really be either excluded or included into the discussion easily), while the crafting skills become awesome at low levels and still suck at higher levels.
I'd much rather specifically boost the crafting skills than overall just make item creation that easy that it effectively doubles the WBL (potentially for the whole party).
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The only thing worthy of any actual "rules" debate is whether or not PCs created at 1st level can keep any excess coins which they don't spend.
Coins are part of the equipment section, so you can buy coins with coins.
Ergo you can have coins in your starting equipment.I would certainly allow people to craft before game start. There's few enough people taking craft skills as it is, and sometimes crafting time can be painfully short during the actual campaign, so I see no real harm in allowing some crafting/scribing beforehand. To me it just seems logical that a character capable of crafting would have used some of his resources on that - especially since scribing scrolls take so little time.
The guy that has put all his skills in perception, sense motive and intimidate would have been a great guard, so why he hasn't more money?
Or the bard with skill focus in perform?
Or... countless examples?
So, there is a reason why you are awarding extra money to one set of skill and not to others?
Your crafter has learned a trade under a master, getting apprentices wages. he could have crafted masterwork swords, but it was with his master instruments, forge and metal. The product wasn't his, it was a property of the master that was paying him apprentice wages.
So, even if he as great skills, he still is a guy that has just left his apprenticeship with what a normal apprentice can afford.
If you really want to gift him the extra stuff he should start buying his forge and weapon smith shop.
If a character want to start with extra money or gear there is a perfectly functional mechanic in game: Traits. You chose a trait that give you extra money or equipment instead of other advantage to show that your character has spent his time in a specific kind of activity instead of other stuff.
Giving "self made" equipment at a discount at character creation is a way to make some trait totally useless.
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BTW, if I can make swords and my buddy can make bows, why don't trade them before starting the game?
After all we are so big friends that we will be ready to risk our life for each other from day one of adventuring, so it is only logic that we help each other preparing.
Take it a step further, the guy with the leatherworking skills will make backpack (possibly masterwork) for all the party. And who will take weaving to make the blankets? Cooking cooking the preserved food?
And the wizard can make the alchemical items.
With a little exchange of favours done before the start of the campaign we can all treble our starting wealth.
In practice the whole party would be CR+1 for that.
Thanks to Diego for clarifying that coins are equipment. I never thought of them that way before. I can see that there are more grey areas to allowing pre-game crafting than I might have thought.
With a little exchange of favours done before the start of the campaign we can all treble our starting wealth.
In practice the whole party would be CR+1 for that.
Magic item crafting later in the game works exactly like this except that the wealth would only be doubled, not trebled. I suspect that this rarely happens with regular Craft skills because they're so slow.
Warning Quasi-Homebrew to follow
I fixed a lot of this with toned down heirloom rules from the GMG my players start with a pool of gold based on their stories of background and such that they can use to cover such items that they might have made.
I make the final decisions about what they can adn can't buy with it but they have used it decently so far.
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Two things to keep in mind:
1) If you allow "crafting" of items at character creation, you will skew the game balance toward specific races (dwarf with Craftsman alternate racial trait, gnome with Master Tinker alternate racial trait and Obsession (Craft (Weapons)), half-elf with Adaptability (Skill Focus in a Craft skill), human using bonus feat for Skill Focus in a Craft skill) and traits (Rich Parents for 900 gp starting wealth). With a 12+ or 14+ Int (12+ Int with Skill Focus, 14+ Int with Craftsman or Obsessive) and a set of masterwork artisan tools (55 gp), you can reach a +10 skill check modifier on a Craft skill with one skill rank (since every class has Craft as a class skill), allowing you to take 10 when crafting masterwork items (DC 20). Suddenly, you get 1st level dwarf fighters running around in masterwork full plate with masterwork weapons, 1st level gnomes with masterwork repeating heavy crossbows and falcatas (which they can use proficiently without needing to take feats), 1st level half-elves with masterwork armor, weapons, or masterwork composite longbows built for Str, etc. If you start after 1st level, there won't be quite as much of a difference without the Rich Parents trait, but there is still an effect to game balance.
2) The magic item creation feats are not designed to increase the Wealth By Level. What they are designed to do is allow characters to customize their magic items without losing money from selling "excess/unwanted" items (i.e., +1 longswords when everyone already has a +1 weapon or someone wants a +1 scimitar instead) at half market price (see Selling Treasure, Core Rulebook pg. 140) and then paying full market price on upgrades/replacements. Even if the GM tailors the treasure to the PCs, there will still be a large amount of duplicate or unwanted items (i.e., unholy weapons when a party of good PCs wipe out an evil temple). If you start after 1st level and allow PCs to use item creation feats to make items at half market price, you skew the game balance even more toward the item creation feats (and also toward spellcasting classes even more than normal, since Master Craftsman is RAW restriced to items made with a single Craft skill; i.e., either armor or weapons (not including bows) or only bows with Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor).
As a GM, you can certainly allow either or both, but be aware of the effect on game balance.
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Stop being silly intentionally. Also what would you do if your level 1 party sat down and since you ruled no application of crafting prior to the game they simply sat in town and refused to leave before finishing their crafting?
Do you rocks fall everyone dies like a brat throwing a fit, or just accept that if they want to there is absolutely no reason they can't do that. And all you're doing by forcing them to do it during play time is slowing down the game for everyone.
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Besides are all of your adventure party backgrounds, "We were the bestest of friends forever golly gee wilikers!"? Because otherwise your characters may not even know each other at the start of the campaign.
Watch your tone.
Well, if they do something like that ("We can't rescue the mayor's daughter for another week or two while we craft equipment."), then either the bad guys succeed and are much tougher/no longer there or some group of NPCs goes out and foils their plans (and are celebrated as heroes). In either case, the town residents and authorities will look on the PCs with disfavor (instead of the benefit of the doubt normally given to adventurers in the game) because of their (lack of) action. No "rocks fall, everyone dies," just the appropriate reaction to a group of "heroes" who refused act with a sense of urgency in a crisis.
As far as party backgrounds go, with such a large mechanical benefit, why wouldn't a party be "bestest of friends?" This forces GM-fiat to not have the entire party start with double normal Wealth By Level. The point is that allowing it will likely cause more GM-fiat, not less, or throw off game balance significantly.
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Two things to keep in mind:
1) If you allow "crafting" of items at character creation, you will skew the game balance toward specific races (dwarf with Craftsman alternate racial trait, gnome with Master Tinker alternate racial trait and Obsession (Craft (Weapons)), half-elf with Adaptability (Skill Focus in a Craft skill), human using bonus feat for Skill Focus in a Craft skill) and traits (Rich Parents for 900 gp starting wealth). With a 12+ or 14+ Int (12+ Int with Skill Focus, 14+ Int with Craftsman or Obsessive) and a set of masterwork artisan tools (55 gp), you can reach a +10 skill check modifier on a Craft skill with one skill rank (since every class has Craft as a class skill), allowing you to take 10 when crafting masterwork items (DC 20). Suddenly, you get 1st level dwarf fighters running around in masterwork full plate with masterwork weapons, 1st level gnomes with masterwork repeating heavy crossbows and falcatas (which they can use proficiently without needing to take feats), 1st level half-elves with masterwork armor, weapons, or masterwork composite longbows built for Str, etc. If you start after 1st level, there won't be quite as much of a difference without the Rich Parents trait, but there is still an effect to game balance.
*cough* If my players spend both a feat and a trait on starting with masterwork full-plate, I would let them. They'll be strong at first level, but everyone will catch up after a couple levels and now they have a feat and a trait that don't do them a lot of good (or really, any good at all). Heck, if they're a smith capable of making masterwork equipment while taking 10 I would consider it a travesty if they DIDN'T start with something masterwork.
None of my players want to spend feats on things that they'll only use for the first couple of levels. All of our campaigns make it to around level 7 before they end, so something that helps a bunch for levels 1 and 2, but not at all for levels 4-7, is not really considered an okay bargain.
I think there's a perception that players who try to craft things at whatever level are somehow cheating or at the very least gaming the system to get an undeserved benefit. I just feel that actually they do deserve the benefit due to the mechanical sacrifices they've made. Obviously each DM can control the amount of benefit provided by metering out the free time which the PCs have available.
No "rocks fall, everyone dies," just the appropriate reaction to a group of "heroes" who refused act with a sense of urgency in a crisis.
Why does there always have to be a crisis though? It almost seems like it is so nobody can take time off to craft anything. Sure, it is so that there will be excitement in the campaign, but if we just let the game time in between pass uneventfully it would take only a second of time in real life.
I think that the differences you've noted are nearly neutral in terms of game balance, just a +1 here or there. Certainly they're no more disruptive than the fact that many DMs either allow high point buys or very liberal rolling methods which result in the PCs having extremely high stats. If I don't allow the inflated stats but do allow the pre-game crafting I think I've contributed to a lesser overall disruption of "game balance".
Your points about the Rich Parents trait are well taken. I will still note that a trait is something mechanical which the PC has given up, approximately half a trait. You might get a 900gp or with crafting even an 1,800gp one time bump in wealth, but you'll never enjoy the benefits of something potentially more useful in the long term such as magical lineage or maybe a +2 to concentration or initiative.
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Why does there always have to be a crisis though? It almost seems like it is so nobody can take time off to craft anything. Sure, it is so that there will be excitement in the campaign, but if we just let the game time in between pass uneventfully it would take only a second of time in real life.
I agree. I try to throw in epilogues when players take skills like Craft/Profession that they actually pursue, or when they can Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions and such. What's the point of having these abilities if they're never used.
Party finishes adventure and saves town. Party has had a gut-full of killing and needs to feel human again, if even for a few days, so the barbarian goes off into the wild, the cleric/wizard holes up in the cloister and buries his nose in some books, the Paladin heads to the Order's chapter house and goes about town to mingle w/the townsfolk and the rogue heads back to the guild to renew his ties and have a stiff drink (or 5).
Oh sure; while they're on holiday the siege of a local castle builds toward a fever pitch and far to the north an ancient evil stirs from its tomb, but those things would've happened if the party was vigilant or not. Now at least the cleric/wizard has replenished his scrolls of Cure Moderate and Mage Armor, the paladin has purchased a +1 sword in the market AND made a connection to a potential new NPC, the rogue sweet-talks his guild into letting him "borrow" that +2 flaming crossbow they've got laying around and the barbarian has "purchased" a tatoo power or something.
If any player in my game chooses one of these skills at 1st level or starts play with Scribe Scroll they always have the option to use starting gold on something associated with that ability; maybe the blacksmith has Masterwork Tools, the Librarian has a facility they've purcased a guild membership to for future adventure research they might have to do or the wizard blows 50 gp on a couple Sleep scrolls for the first quest. Bottom line; play to your players strengths and try to work with what they can do, don't penalize them for the choices they make. A GM makes a game where Acrobatics will be useful. a GOOD GM makes a game where Profession: Trapper will be useful.
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My approach is one that applies all the same rules to everyone equally - you determine how much gear you can have by rolling, and then you make up the story of how you got it - rolling up 100 gold and getting 4 scrolls with it could be equally described as "I bought these from some scholar that needed a bit of coin to pay his debts," or "These are the leftovers from my time working as a scribe at the college."
That seems perfectly reasonable.
I would like to add, though, that it is important to give characters downtime so that they can do whatever they like to do in that space of time. Crafters can craft, charisma-types can build contacts and gather information, characters can consolidate their power bases.
Spending your downtime crafting doesn't mean that you're gaming the system; you're getting the benefit you paid for, both in character elements (feats etc.) and in time, which is a resource for characters like any other.
I allow characters to have gear according to their starting wealth. If they have Item Creation feats, that's awesome. It may not seem beneficial with a starting character but I have had some players ask if they could have custom items that they would be able to create. That's what Item Creation feats are for in my campaigns. During a campaign, taking the extra cloaks of resistance and selling them off to use that money to make a ring of protection is what the feats are for in my opinion.
So some examples of what I'm talking about
1)A 1st level character wants a scroll with Heightened Daze and he has Daze on his spell list and the Heighten Spell feat, he can do that. It would cost 25gp but he would have a scroll they wouldn't normally start with.
2) At higher levels, maybe he has Forge Ring, bull's strength, telekinesis, and shield of faith and he wants to combine the Ring of Protection +2 with a Ring of the Ram. No problem. It will cost him 6150 gold but it will be a unique item that he can craft.
3) A paladin with 8 ranks in Craft Armor and the Master Craftsman Feat wants to make a +2 shield that also provides a +1 bonus on saving throws, he can do so because he has the feats and spells necessary.
Another character without those feats and spells will have to suffer with what's in the book as already commonly crafted items. With this method, a character can benefit from having Item Creation feats at all levels of play and can start with a benefit as well.
This game sort of has a precedent for characters not having an ability one day, but then (LEVEL UP!) having new powers the next. For those people who are really against players having crafted items before the first adventure, just rule that they didn't get the necessary skill points until just before the campaign started.
Yeah I mean look at the NPC gallery who asks level ones to adventure hookers and barkeeps are much better suited than the players in fact the players should all be NPC classes until they get enough backstory built up so that the BBEG kidnaps their daughter and they have to go save her then they can get a level of fighter or what ever.
Barkeeps are 3 expert/1 warrior hookers are 2 expert/ 1 rogue they are better than first level parties any day of the week. Heck the mayor is like a 6th or 7th level expert himself.
If the player is going to all the trouble of investing in crafting skills, item creation feats, etc, then I see absolutely no reason to bar said player from a reasonable amount of items created with said skills/feats. If the fighter with Craft: Armoursmithing shows up with a Masterwork Breastplate she crafted herself, then good for her. If the sorcerer with Scribe Scroll shows up with 473 Scrolls of Magic Missile, that's NOT okay, and I'll reject that and tell them to tone it down to single digits.
Put another way: If a player has a list of 20-30 different articles of clothing on their equipment list, then I'm going to assume they're really into outfits and dressing up, which is fun. If a player has a list of 20-30 different magical scrolls on their equipment list, then I'm going to assume they're a power-gaming munchkin, which ISN'T fun.
When a player invests in an item creation feat, they're giving up some other feat, so the least you can do is make it a little easier for them to get the full benefit. The person who took Dodge instead of Brew Potion is going to be using their feat all through the first set of encounters, so why shouldn't the person with Brew Potion have access to that extra potion for those encounters?
Anywho, that's my 2cp.