Scribe Scroll with starting gold


Rules Questions

351 to 390 of 390 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>

mdt wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:


lol and yet some feats do scale. So who are you to say this one doesn't. Craft feats scale in the sense that you gain skill points applied to them as you level. You do get to craft items faster as you level as you can use the +5 increased DC on items that you previously couldn't due to the initial DC not being achieveable with a low skill.

No, they don't scale.

Your skill scales, if you keep putting skill ranks into it. Skill Focus scales (at level 10). Craft Wondrous Item doesn't scale. It's a flat benefit. It gives you the ability to craft wondrous items. Period. If it gave you the ability to crate wondrous items at 3rd level, and minor artifacts at 18th, and major artifacts at 25, then it would scale.

Skill points are totally separate from the feat. By your logic, Weapon Focus would 'scale' because it adds one to your BAB and your BAB increases by level. But it doesn't, and it isn't, and the craft feats don't either.

So again, craft feats don't scale.

*sigh*

You're right. The feat itself doesn't scale but your ability to craft items scale with your skill that allows you, still, to craft items quicker. The thing is that your wealth scales with your character and a flat bonus will scale by proxy. Especially when the initial bonus is the ability to double some score. Its basic math.


LOL to your edit. You haven't pointed anything out. You've been trying to bash eveyone over the head in this thread with your opinion on how the game should be structured. I've given ample references to validate my points as I went. If you don't want to listen, or even read the books yourself, its up to you. But don't tell people this is how it is and there's no other way. If it were, maybe a dev would have joined to say otherwise already. As it stands its a point of contention that I doubt they want to touch becuase someone will get their feelings hurt.

EDIT: Nor do I think characters should be able to start with some ridiculous amount of cash. But as it stands, if traits don't scale, and crafts don't scale, Your 900gp starting wealth could only become 1885gp via magical crafting (with hedge magician) or 2700gp via mundane crafting. That doesn't scale. So you have a maximum of 1800gp beyond what a first level could potentially have. So what's 1800gp at level 20 if it's not gonna scale?


I, personally, have stated several times that I'm not a munchkin and, for the most part, the group I game with isn't either. You guys want a ruling that will eliminate munchkin abuse and hurt players who utilize a system to get a minor advantage they don't use to abuse things. If that's the case remove all feats and have characters only play vanilla classes. A power attacking 2 handed fighter with epic strength and 7 int/chr is abusing the system and yet people don't frown upon it's use. They just come up with ways to show that player he should try to make a well rounded character by forcing them to use their dump stats. Maybe its time to use the same game by making a villain that likes to sunder magic items. Or a Xorn shows up and starts eating the players stockpiled gold. The power is yours and yet you choose to foreit it in hopes that someone will rule in your favor.

Never once have I said that this can't be abused to achieve the ends that you seem to think everyone does. All I've said is that the designers have already come up with a solution to your problem and you don't need to cry for some other resolution to this.


mdt wrote:


EDIT : You can make up any feat you want for homebrew, such as 'Infinite Wealth', must be taken at character creation. You spent all your time crafting selling and crafting prior to game start, and start with 1 beeelion GP. That doesn't make it a valid feat in the game, and it doesn't make it a logical feat extension from the rules. You wanted something that would fit with existing structure, but now that I've pointed it out, you don't like it, because it's not powerful enough in addition to the feat ability you are already getting by taking the CWI feat in the first place.

Again, you are assuming that;

(1) The player WILL be a major douchebag munchkin and ABUSE the system.

(2) You assume that the DM is too braindead to tell the player NO to reselling stuff on such scale or put any limitations in place.

(3) You again assume that the Dm will allow to sell a thousand items in one spot without crashing the economy or the npc's saying "no, I got too many of those.".

Also, this was a feat talk, which cost 1/2 to make, and sell for 1/2, meaning zero profit.
Really, I wish you good luck earning 1 beeelion Gp selling mundane items and then having time to craft them, all while level one (because you wouldn't derail the original topic, which was for scribe scroll at lvl 1, would you?).

Your example is only a one to a million chance of happening, and that's only if the DM doesn't know he can actually say no to players. If I sound offensive, then sorry, I only partly meant to, but the only scenario you have come up with was this, one player abusing the system, and a dm not knowing who what where and when.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

LOL

I don't need a resolution, nor a GM to step in. I just use the rules as written. Nothing in the rules say you can craft before character creation, so you can't. The system gives a breakdown on how much should be spent of your starting wealth, and it's something like 25% for weapons, 25% for defense, and finally 10% on gold. I find that works well, and if someone wants to buy a bunch of crafting materials at the start of the game and then spend time in game crafting using their entire 20% (or whatever it is, not bothering to go look right now) to craft, then that's fine. But the game is not going to be put on hold for them to craft, they can craft as they travel. If they end up in a fight with only the equipment they would have at Level - 2, then that's their choice.

As to all the other arguments about the GM can use Rule 0 to fix this house ruled problem, then my response is, yes, if you are house ruling, you should fix the problem you are introducing. But the RAW is very clear, and things not listed in the raw as doable are not doable by default. The rules don't state you cannot make yourself a god by worshiping yourself, after all. :) Nor do they state you can craft pre-game start.


If saying and pointing to the "Raw does not allow it at 1st level." is enough, then why bring in all the munchkin examples that might never(more likely) happen?

Also, again, you're assuming that if rule 0 allows pregame craft, there will be a mess to remove. "you should fix the problem you are introducing", dunno bout you, but imo, assuming the worst of players is never a good thing to base a rule 0, item, feat, or ability on, which might be why all your examples make the crafters sound like total jerks concerned with maxing gold because they have the option.

Keeping a rule 0 under control isn't the same as fixing a problem, nor is it admitting there's a problem present.


mdt wrote:

LOL

I don't need a resolution, nor a GM to step in. I just use the rules as written. Nothing in the rules say you can craft before character creation, so you can't. The system gives a breakdown on how much should be spent of your starting wealth, and it's something like 25% for weapons, 25% for defense, and finally 10% on gold. I find that works well, and if someone wants to buy a bunch of crafting materials at the start of the game and then spend time in game crafting using their entire 20% (or whatever it is, not bothering to go look right now) to craft, then that's fine. But the game is not going to be put on hold for them to craft, they can craft as they travel. If they end up in a fight with only the equipment they would have at Level - 2, then that's their choice.

again... *sigh*

Read the section in the Dungeon Mastery Guide on wealthy characters. It explains how a character can exceed starting wealth. I've also stated that it's GM discretion on if they want to let a character craft pre-game for level 1 characters. This will in no way break the game if the player isn't a munchkin trying to maximize its use. Nor will any character have to wait on the crafter as in a previous post I showed how much wealth is gained per level by the WBL chart and it's a minuscule amount of time to craft it away.

MDT wrote:


As to all the other arguments about the GM can use Rule 0 to fix this house ruled problem, then my response is, yes, if you are house ruling, you should fix the problem you are introducing. But the RAW is very clear, and things not listed in the raw as doable are not doable by default. The rules don't state you cannot make yourself a god by worshiping yourself, after all. :) Nor do they state you can craft pre-game start.

Nor does it say a character can or cannot use his feats acquired over the course of his career to use those feats to his benefit prior to joining a game that isn't level 1. It's just common sense that a character has been using his feats along his adventures to benefit himself to the best of his abilities. But by default a 20th level character that took Craft Wondrous Items at level 3 decided he wasted a feat and didn't use it at all in his career because now his WBL is equal to the guy that has no craft abilities. He also chose to take power attack at level 1 but since it's not explicitly written in the RAW that he has it he didn't bother applying it to his attacks along the way.

I get it. Those of you opposed will never be satisfied by common sense. You need a rule or you will interpret written words how the book states them because devs have never made any comment on rules outside of the book. The devs have said they want people to use common sense so they don't have to baby us with redundant text and make books thousands of pages. But since some of us choose free thought and others choose rule absolution we need a dev to come clarify things.


mdt wrote:

Not all feats scale.

Weapon Focus is +1. Period.

Weapon Finesse allows you to use your dex bonus, not str bonus. It doesn't scale, you don't get dex bonus * level, or dex bonus every N levels.

In fact, most feats do not scale. Especially the Crafting Feats. You don't get to craft faster as you level up. You don't get to craft more as you level up (and before you say 'Caster Level', most things (A) don't have caster level requirements anymore, and (B) multiclassing would up your level but not your CL). For every feat that does scale, such as power attack, there are at least 5 that don't. So that argument is a strawman, sorry, buzz, try again.

Eh, the crafting feats do inherently scale according to level if the WBL chart is used. It doesn't scale production speed but it scales in production potential. Anything that let's the crafting gain more access to gold pieces scales his (or her :D) crafting potential.


mdt wrote:

Not all feats scale.

Weapon Focus is +1. Period.

Weapon Finesse allows you to use your dex bonus, not str bonus. It doesn't scale, you don't get dex bonus * level, or dex bonus every N levels.

In fact, most feats do not scale. Especially the Crafting Feats. You don't get to craft faster as you level up. You don't get to craft more as you level up (and before you say 'Caster Level', most things (A) don't have caster level requirements anymore, and (B) multiclassing would up your level but not your CL). For every feat that does scale, such as power attack, there are at least 5 that don't. So that argument is a strawman, sorry, buzz, try again.

That's not a strawman just because some feats don't scale while some do doesn't mean that the crafting feats should be one or the other.

In fact we have examples of both scaling and non scaling feats and the RAW clearly place the crafting feats in the scaling category.

Arbitrarily deciding they shouldn't scale isn't supported by the rules although you can certainly run your game that way.

Also you do get to craft faster as you level since your level limits the points you can place in crafting skills.


mdt wrote:
It gives you the ability to craft wondrous items

.. at 1/2 the cost of the item being crafted. :D

That's a pretty scale-friendly ability considering you gain access to more money the more you level. :)


I really do enjoy how everyone acknowledges the craft feats let you create stuff but there is a particular set of people that refuse to also take the part of the feat where you can do so for less than the market value of an item being created. It sort of reminds me about people who piecemeal scripture to suit their own needs while ignoring the rest. LOL

If you can't handle a character with craft just be honest about it and do your players a service and don't let them take crafting. It's no different then letting a class participate in a campaign that would "break" the campaign and then trying to house-rule it into compliance so it can't break the campaign. The result is a bastardization of the original and only your group of players can play with it. As soon as they go somewhere else or someone new joins your group the reeducation process begins anew. Why do you think PFS doesn't allow craft feats yet is set in the city Absalom? Even if you can't create what you want I'm pretty sure you can either have it commissioned or find an adequate piece. If you look at what people "normally" get paid, a single piece of gear can net someone 70k+ gp per year easily. In terms of an equal number of dollars, I don't know anyone who would turn down a job like that unless they're already making more! ;) Thus, I don't think finding an NPC to do this would be an issue since they can basically charge you the full cost up front and doing the job for you is no different than doing the job for someone else. Someone crafting a high level magic piece is going to spend the same amount of time regardless so as long as they're getting paid and would otherwise be willing to do it why would they care? If you're a high level character that can pay for expensive work then you'll likely be able to afford more expensive work.

The ability to get a "custom" piece of gear is really minor in comparison to the skill ranks and feats I can utilize elsewhere to make my character really shine.


Khrysaor wrote:
Read the section in the Dungeon Mastery Guide on wealthy characters. It explains how a character can exceed starting wealth. I've also stated that it's GM discretion on if they want to let a character craft pre-game for level 1 characters. This will in no way break the game if the player isn't a munchkin trying to maximize its use. Nor will any character have to wait on the crafter as in a previous post I showed how much wealth is gained per level by the WBL chart and it's a minuscule amount of time to craft it away.

Ok, let's read it.

Open Paragraph:

Quote:
By default, we tend to think of starting characters as inexperienced beginners who have scraped together a few coins to equip themselves with mundane items for a new life of adventure. By adjusting what beginning characters start with, you can use starting treasure to define the characters, making them part of the world they’re about to explore.

I bolded some important words/phrases. So far it certainly doesn't look like the expectation is to start with more wealth than what the book states.

Next Section: Starting With Magic Items

Quote:

One option is to grant the players a collective budget of 1,500 gp per person, which they can use to buy any number of magic items. Leave them alone to agree on a distribution; they might get one mighty item, used by only one of them, or many lesser ones, so everybody gets

something. The budget can only be spent on magic; they don’t get to keep leftover cash.

Keep a close eye on what the players purchase, and veto anything that might break the game from the beginning. Also be prepared to adjust encounter difficulties to account for the increased competence of magically equipped parties.

So again, they don't keep any left over cash. In addition, a party of 3 (the previous paragraph mentions smaller groups), that's a maximum of 500 gold per character that is either spent or lost. Take a good look at that last sentence. It's like I've been saying this all along...hmmm...

Next Section: Wealthy Characters
The only paragraph with any actual numbers is the last one:

Quote:
Alternatively, if other players consent, a player with a character concept that logically demands it might get a 10–20% bonus to their starting budget.

So 10-20%...that's actually very close to what someone else was saying that he would reasonably expect to see from the Item Creation feats. It's also "roughly equal" to the expected Wealth of the starting character. So we're looking at adding a maximum of 30 gold to the starting character's wealth and that's assuming he's a fighter or ranger that rolled 300 gold to start with. On average, those wealthy characters are looking at a massive 15 gold to start with. Not quite the same as tripling the starting wealth by crafting your own armor and weapons (which is the majority of what those classes will be making and needing).

Quote:
Nor does it say a character can or cannot use his feats acquired over the course of his career to use those feats to his benefit prior to joining a game that isn't level 1. It's just common sense that a character has been using his feats along his adventures to benefit himself to the best of his abilities. But by default a 20th level character that took Craft Wondrous Items at level 3 decided he wasted a feat and didn't use it at all in his career because now his WBL is equal to the guy that has no craft abilities. He also chose to take power attack at level 1 but since it's not explicitly written in the RAW that he has it he didn't bother applying it to his attacks along the way.

According the the book you told me to reference, a wealthy character has 10-20% more than an average character. That's well within the "roughly equal" wealth by level.

I would also like to point out that this same book has this to say about crafting magic items:

Quote:
After all, the PC gets a new, custom magic item out of the arrangement, and that’s worth paying a bit extra.

So when I was saying that customizing your magic items is a benefit, it's almost like I knew what I was talking about.

Quote:
I get it. Those of you opposed will never be satisfied by common sense. You need a rule or you will interpret written words how the book states them because devs have never made any comment on rules outside of the book. The devs have said they want people to use common sense so they don't have to baby us with redundant text and make books thousands of pages. But since some of us choose free thought and others choose rule absolution we need a dev to come clarify things.

You don't have the upper hand on common sense. You can stop with comments like that. Honestly, common sense says that if the rules say "every character has roughly equal wealth" then you can't assume that it means "some characters have roughly equal wealth while other characters can have nearly double the wealth but it won't have any impact on the game because the WBL tables don't really matter in the first place."

The devs do want people to use some common sense. I don't think they should get involved in every rules squabble. Most aren't worth their time. Things like this, which is part of the framework of how the game is designed, might need some input.

Common sense says that the WBL must be only concerned with Market Value because if the GM had to keep track of every item and who made it an how it would be far more work than it needs to be. The GM shouldn't have to worry himself with the fact that the fighter forged his own adamantine long sword for 1005 gold (assuming he never failed a craft check) but the wizard enhanced it by spending 4000 gold. How do you figure the WBL? What if the fighter needed more time because he failed a few times? Do you honestly keep track of it all? If not, why not? If so, why make it so hard on yourself? The easiest way would be to say that the +2 adamanine longsword is worth 11,015 gold and move on. The fighter got his custom item without having to wait for an NPC or two to become available.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
QQ

I'm afraid you're missing one key point here WBL is NOT a rule it is a guide. It exists solely to help the GM decide how much crap he wants to throw at a group of people.

And nothing about the rules says that the characters must have equal wealth that is something that can easily be skewed by the party during loot distribution and that the DM has no way to control outside of DM fiat and in any reasonable situation is left to the party because they control their own characters.

Besides which when you drop a ring of protection +1 for a level one party the character who gets it suddenly has quadruple the wealth of the other party members does your game universe suddenly implode or something?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
Read the section in the Dungeon Mastery Guide on wealthy characters. It explains how a character can exceed starting wealth. I've also stated that it's GM discretion on if they want to let a character craft pre-game for level 1 characters. This will in no way break the game if the player isn't a munchkin trying to maximize its use. Nor will any character have to wait on the crafter as in a previous post I showed how much wealth is gained per level by the WBL chart and it's a minuscule amount of time to craft it away.

Ok, let's read it.

Open Paragraph:

Quote:
By default, we tend to think of starting characters as inexperienced beginners who have scraped together a few coins to equip themselves with mundane items for a new life of adventure. By adjusting what beginning characters start with, you can use starting treasure to define the characters, making them part of the world they’re about to explore.

I bolded some important words/phrases. So far it certainly doesn't look like the expectation is to start with more wealth than what the book states.

Next Section: Starting With Magic Items

Quote:

One option is to grant the players a collective budget of 1,500 gp per person, which they can use to buy any number of magic items. Leave them alone to agree on a distribution; they might get one mighty item, used by only one of them, or many lesser ones, so everybody gets

something. The budget can only be spent on magic; they don’t get to keep leftover cash.

Keep a close eye on what the players purchase, and veto anything that might break the game from the beginning. Also be prepared to adjust encounter difficulties to account for the increased competence of magically equipped parties.

So again, they don't keep any left over cash. In addition, a party of 3 (the previous paragraph mentions smaller groups), that's a maximum of 500 gold per character that is either spent or lost. Take a good look at that last sentence. It's like I've been...

Was wondering where you got yourself to Bob.

I'm glad you took the time to read the entire section when I specifically referenced the section on wealthy characters that proves a character can start with more than the starting wealth as written in the CRB. Unfortunately I'm now going to disregard all your previous quotations as they aren't relavent to my post you're replying to and hold no bearing for this argument.

Emphasis mine.

Lets make sure we're keeping things relative here so as not to confuse ourselves. A 10-20% increase in wealth for a level 20 character is 88000gp-176000gp. That seems like a substantial sum to me even at that level and if I recall it was you guys stating that this was a problem for munchkins at higher levels, capable of doubling their wealth. No it's not a doubling of wealth but it is a substantial increase.

Math dictates that on a graph if the axes are directly proportionate to one another than by doubling one you double the other. If one increases exponentially the other does so as well.

Since crafting is directly proportionate to the wealth you can invest in the form of crafting wealth = 2 times wealth, and wealth is exponentially proportionate to a characters level, your crafting wealth will also grow exponentially at 2 times your character wealth. (In truth it doesn't look like the numbers are exponential but I don't feel like wasting the time to determine the modifier that governs this guideline).

Now, I never said that getting a unique item isn't a benefit of the craft feats. I said that getting a unique item isn't the only benefit and mitigating the monetary gain basically mitigates the feat as I don't put much emphasis on unique items when any player can buy them or find them or acquire the exact same thing that you can make. Something isn't really unique if everyone can have it.

Common sense does not say that market value is all that governs WBL, as in real life people fail. Running a business you learn to budget for loss management. You understand there's market fluctuation. You account for rising materials costs. You outsource labor. These things aren't overly applicable to a single person but in a world where there is a thriving market for these things, it's a reality. It's just not one the devs want us delving into as we're here to play games and have fun. Not having to deal with the real life woes. But this is accounted for in the WBL by stating its what an average player should have. You could be lower than WBL if you fail a bunch. You could be higher than WBL if you succeed more than you fail. Now determining a characters actual wealth you would use the market value as that is the standard by which comparison is made.

In a game where most of us will wait to craft the items we want to be sure we don't fail, suddenly you've removed a dynamic that most businesses would love to have today. It would provide a greater profit margin as all products would be created at cost for materials as opposed to any small loss margin.


gnomersy wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
QQ

I'm afraid you're missing one key point here WBL is NOT a rule it is a guide. It exists solely to help the GM decide how much crap he wants to throw at a group of people.

And nothing about the rules says that the characters must have equal wealth that is something that can easily be skewed by the party during loot distribution and that the DM has no way to control outside of DM fiat and in any reasonable situation is left to the party because they control their own characters.

Besides which when you drop a ring of protection +1 for a level one party the character who gets it suddenly has quadruple the wealth of the other party members does your game universe suddenly implode or something?

I missed nothing. Go back and read what I said. The WBL is meant to ensure that all characters are "roughly equal" in wealth. That is what the book says. It is meant to be fluid. It is a guideline but it isn't meant to be ignored simply because it is a guideline. It is not an engraved rule like Number of Attacks per round based on Base Attack Bonus. Your BAB isn't fluid. It is hard-coded. Your WBL will change as you use consumables, buy, sell, trade, and find gear. Your character doesn't go from 1,000 gold at level 2 and then is granted 2,000 gold at level 3. A good GM will be slowly handing that treasure out over the level. It's ok if it's a little over or a little under. Go back to where I posted what the party I am running through Age of Worms looks like.

Look at "How to Build A Treasure Hoard" in the Core Rule Book for how it should work out. Let's walk through a party of level 4 characters on the Fast Track (this is my preferred track).

They should net 1,700 gold on average per encounter. Some will be more and some will be less. The average party is 4 characters. That's 425 gold on average per encounter. The Fast Track XP table says that 13.3 encounters will get us to the next level. So from level 4 to 5, we should also gain 5652.5 gold per character. Looking at the table, the PCs should gain 4,500 gold. So we are over a bit. It's all good though. If we break everything down, we would see that some levels you are slightly higher and other levels you are slightly lower. Overall, you are close. You can do the math and break it down yourself. At no point are you much higher or lower than the WBL (which is just a soft goal).

And if you don't think there is anything that says that PCs should have roughly equal wealth, may I suggest you read the section about WBL. Here is the pertinent paragraph:

Quote:
As PCs gain levels, the amount of treasure they carry and use increases as well. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items. Since the primary income for a PC derives from treasure and loot gained from adventuring, it's important to moderate the wealth and hoards you place in your adventures. To aid in placing treasure, the amount of treasure and magic items the PCs receive for their adventures is tied to the Challenge Rating of the encounters they face—the higher an encounter's CR, the more treasure it can award.

The next paragraph goes on to say:

Quote:
Table: Character Wealth by Level lists the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value. It is assumed that some of this treasure is consumed in the course of an adventure (such as potions and scrolls), and that some of the less useful items are sold for half value so more useful gear can be purchased.

So maybe we should just acknowledge that some of us, like myself and mdt, play a "standard fantasy game" (whatever that may be) and those who allow crafting to significantly exceed the WBL are playing a "high-fantasy game" (whatever that may be). There is nothing wrong with any of the play styles. I just think that maybe we should all just acknowledge that we are all coming from different places.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Bob, you're wasting your time. I've argued until I'm blue in the face. They are going to insist that they are just prefectly hunkey dorey RAW. No matter how much you quote at them, they just ignore it, belittle you, and denigrate your arguments as 'waved away by Rule 0'.

It's a sucker's argument. Nothing will ever convince them they are not exactly quoting chapter and verse RAW. Even the RAW being quoted at them.

I wish they'd just take it over to homebrew/house rule instead of Rules forum, or that the devs would move this whole thread there. Then I could just ignore it, since it's all just a house rule compounded on another house rule. And anyone can house rule however they want.


Khrysaor wrote:
Was wondering where you got yourself to Bob.

I had decided not to come back but I got bored. I should be packing and cleaning since I'm moving in 2 days, but I don't feel like it.

Quote:
I'm glad you took the time to read the entire section when I specifically referenced the section on wealthy characters that proves a character can start with more than the starting wealth as written in the CRB. Unfortunately I'm now going to disregard all your previous quotations as they aren't relavent to my post you're replying to and hold no bearing for this argument.

No one ever said that you can't start with more wealth. If you read the section, it is clear that starting with more wealth is not the norm. It is purely a house rule for that campaign.

Quote:
Lets make sure we're keeping things relative here so as not to confuse ourselves. A 10-20% increase in wealth for a level 20 character is 88000gp-176000gp. That seems like a substantial sum to me even at that level and if I recall it was you guys stating that this was a problem for munchkins at higher levels, capable of doubling their wealth. No it's not a doubling of wealth but it is a substantial increase.

10-20% is not a significant increase. I've actually said that I don't have an issue with a slight variance in WBL by that much. My issue comes down to the potential to have more wealth than a character 1 to 2 levels higher.

Quote:
Now, I never said that getting a unique item isn't a benefit of the craft feats.

Others have flat out said that unique items are not a benefit of the craft feats. I'm having an issue with viewing Paizo right now so it's hard to scroll back to see who said it.

Quote:
I said that getting a unique item isn't the only benefit and mitigating the monetary gain basically mitigates the feat as I don't put much emphasis on unique items when any player can buy them or find them or acquire the exact same thing that you can make. Something isn't really unique if everyone can have it.

I agree that it's not unique if everyone can have it. However, it is more likely that the crafter will have the unique item than the non-crafter. You won't see much in your games from unique items. My players love this and when I mentioned this thread, they stared at me trying to figure out why anyone would allow the feats to grant them so much money. They all feel that it would be unbalancing.

Quote:
Common sense does not say that market value is all that governs WBL, as in real life people fail. Running a business you learn to budget for loss management. You understand there's market fluctuation. You account for rising materials costs. You outsource labor. These things aren't overly applicable to a single person but in a world where there is a thriving market for these things, it's a reality. It's just not one the devs want us delving into as we're here to play games and have fun. Not having to deal with the real life woes. But this is accounted for in the WBL by stating its what an average player should have. You could be lower than WBL if you fail a bunch. You could be higher than WBL if you succeed more than you fail. Now determining a characters actual wealth you would use the market value as that is the standard by which comparison is made.

We don't get to use the real world markets to help us understand the fantasy economics. They just don't compare, as you clearly point out. In fact, all of your explanation only serves to prove that you should only be using the Market Value since it would take even more work to determine how much wealth someone has. What if they took the time to mine the adamantine themselves? What if they also took the time to smelt it? There are skills that allow for this. It's just too much work on the GM's shoulders with no payoff for the poor soul who needs to be running this economy.

Quote:
In a game where most of us will wait to craft the items we want to be sure we don't fail, suddenly you've removed a dynamic that most businesses would love to have today. It would provide a greater profit margin as all products would be created at cost for materials as opposed to any small loss margin.

You shouldn't be failing the crafting of items at any level that the item is appropriate to craft. DC 5 + Caster Level is incredibly easy to meet. By the time you can craft items, your Spellcraft check should be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 3 (16 Intelligence) = +9. You can't fail already. If you want to speed up the crafting, then you are taking a risk or if you don't meet all the prerequisites, then you are risking things, but otherwise you shouldn't have any problems. That is an intentional mechanic. Heck, even with a measly +9, you can skip one prerequisite and rush as well, bringing you to a -1 to your check and still Take 10 and craft items just fine. By level 3, you can craft Caster Level 4 items without fail. Skill Focus, a higher Intelligence, more ranks, etc, will all make crafting so easy you wonder why there is even a rule about rolling.

=======

On a side note, the crafting rule say: "This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5." Does this have a limit? If you increase the DC by +10, could you accelerate by another factor of 2? For example, the Headband of Alluring Charisma +6 would normally be 36k and a DC of 16. The base time is 16 days. If you make the DC 21, you can do it in 8 days. If you increase to 26, can you do it in 4 days? What if you increase to 31, can you do it in 2 days? At DC 36, would it be 1 day?


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Stuff.

If it says 4 hours per blah rather than double the speed of crafting or something of that sort it would be impossible for it to stack by default.

Also the reason I'd allow the crafting feats to supersede the WBL is twofold 1)Crafting is a rule vs WBL as a fluid guideline and 2)Because specific rules always trump general rules.

But I do have to agree with you I'd never allow a level 15 player to have double his wealth in magic items to start the game.

But since we always start the game at level 1-3 in my groups so far it hasn't ever come up (and the one time I came into a lvl 9 game I got to go commando as far as magical gear was concerned)

Also a great deal of the difference is negligible during normal circumstances because most of the wealth characters gather is in magic items and as long as they aren't all pawning their goods to get custom gear the difference doesn't show up.

Instead you'd see the crafter selling his general magic junk for specifically useful gear giving him a boost in what he wants while the rest of the group just uses whatever they find.

On the other hand if you are allowing everyone to choose their magic gear at the start of the game then you essentially gave them the normal benefit that crafting provides and essentially gave them 2* the normal Wealth they should have access to because they got access to custom gear while maintaining equal wealth, I'd give the crafter double or at least 50% more under those circumstances because I essentially negated his normal use of his feat.

So the other option would be to roll up loot on a table and give it to the normal players, while the crafter gets to pick all of his at market value, then the normal people can sell and trade their random gear for half price to get custom gear if they want or they can deal and have = WBL with the crafter but lose out on getting exactly what they want.

Which is how the feat really ends up working when you consider the vast majority of Wealth to be in magical items under ordinary circumstances.

PS: Unfortunately this might really feel like being penalized for the normal players who would rage over not getting their Greatsword of Badassery and only having a Longsword of Shinpiercing even though they lack the right weapon spec feats.


mdt wrote:

Bob, you're wasting your time. I've argued until I'm blue in the face. They are going to insist that they are just prefectly hunkey dorey RAW. No matter how much you quote at them, they just ignore it, belittle you, and denigrate your arguments as 'waved away by Rule 0'.

It's a sucker's argument. Nothing will ever convince them they are not exactly quoting chapter and verse RAW. Even the RAW being quoted at them.

I wish they'd just take it over to homebrew/house rule instead of Rules forum, or that the devs would move this whole thread there. Then I could just ignore it, since it's all just a house rule compounded on another house rule. And anyone can house rule however they want.

mdt on page 2 wrote:
It's called "I'm taking my ball and going home, because you won't let me win!" argument. It's usually used by people who can't win, and know they're wrong, but refuse to admit it.

Cause someone's not self-righteous on this topic.

When ample evidence is presented to disuade me of this belief I will agree with you. Until then I'll continue my stand.

EDIT: that was also the comment I read that enticed me to join this thread. Seemed like an adventure.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Khrysaor wrote:
mdt wrote:

Bob, you're wasting your time. I've argued until I'm blue in the face. They are going to insist that they are just prefectly hunkey dorey RAW. No matter how much you quote at them, they just ignore it, belittle you, and denigrate your arguments as 'waved away by Rule 0'.

It's a sucker's argument. Nothing will ever convince them they are not exactly quoting chapter and verse RAW. Even the RAW being quoted at them.

I wish they'd just take it over to homebrew/house rule instead of Rules forum, or that the devs would move this whole thread there. Then I could just ignore it, since it's all just a house rule compounded on another house rule. And anyone can house rule however they want.

mdt on page 2 wrote:
It's called "I'm taking my ball and going home, because you won't let me win!" argument. It's usually used by people who can't win, and know they're wrong, but refuse to admit it.

Cause someone's not self-righteous on this topic.

When ample evidence is presented to disuade me of this belief I will agree with you. Until then I'll continue my stand.

EDIT: that was also the comment I read that enticed me to join this thread. Seemed like an adventure.

Yep,

Congratulations. You brought me down to your level. :)


gnomersy wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
If it says 4 hours per blah rather than double the speed of crafting or something of that sort it would be impossible for it to stack by default.

However, if you apply it again, you would be able to use your new craft time. I don't know if the rule is meant to be used this way and if not, I don't know if I would allow it to. I'm looking for feedback. This could be a huge difference in how something is going to be happening in my next campaign.

Quote:
Also the reason I'd allow the crafting feats to supersede the WBL is twofold 1)Crafting is a rule vs WBL as a fluid guideline and 2)Because specific rules always trump general rules.

However, the craft rules do not say anything about exceeding WBL so there is not "specific vs general" rule problem.

Quote:
But since we always start the game at level 1-3 in my groups so far it hasn't ever come up (and the one time I came into a lvl 9 game I got to go commando as far as magical gear was concerned)

At low levels it may not be noticeable as much as it is at higher levels. As you mentioned, you wouldn't let a level 15 character double his wealth. Where would you draw the line?

Quote:
Also a great deal of the difference is negligible during normal circumstances because most of the wealth characters gather is in magic items and as long as they aren't all pawning their goods to get custom gear the difference doesn't show up.

What's to stop them from doing this? The only thing is for the GM to step in. What's the difference between my enforcing the WBL from the beginning and another GM enforcing it later?

Quote:
Instead you'd see the crafter selling his general magic junk for specifically useful gear giving him a boost in what he wants while the rest of the group just uses whatever they find.

This is what's supposed to happen. As mdt and others have pointed out, you sell the stuff you don't want for half market value then craft new stuff at half market value. In the end, you made what you wanted and you stayed at proper Market Value.

Quote:
On the other hand if you are allowing everyone to choose their magic gear at the start of the game then you essentially gave them the normal benefit that crafting provides and essentially gave them 2* the normal Wealth they should have access to because they got access to custom gear while maintaining equal wealth, I'd give the crafter double or at least 50% more under those circumstances because I essentially negated his normal use of his feat.

Why stop with Craft feats then? Why not allow me to have my Profession-based character start with extra money too? Let's say my level 10 character with Profession (soldier) has been at war for the last year. That's 52 weeks. He has 10 ranks, Intelligence of 13, and Skill Focus. That gives him +20 on his check. Now let's say he simply Takes 10 giving him a 30 overall. That is 15 gold per week. That's 780 extra gold in his pocket. What if he is also the weaponsmith for his unit? Let's say he has taken the exact same feats and skill ranks. Now he is at an additional 1560 gold. At level 10, he is expected to have 62,000 gold in wealth. He has netted a 2.5% increase in his WBL. While it isn't much, honestly it isn't, would you allow it? What if the player said he had been working as a mercenary for the last 5 years? 10? These aren't unreasonable especially if he is a longer lived race or is willing to start older. Why should the elf who has been doing that for 50 years be denied his additional 39,000 gold? That's an increase of more than 50%.

Quote:
So the other option would be to roll up loot on a table and give it to the normal players, while the crafter gets to pick all of his at market value, then the normal people can sell and trade their random gear for half price to get custom gear if they want or they can deal and have = WBL with the crafter but lose out on getting exactly what they want.

There is no need to do that. Just like you wouldn't allow someone with the Leadership feat to claim all the cash from his workers before the game starts, you shouldn't allow someone to "cash in" on the Item Creation feats. I allow the crafter to make exactly what they want, and I encourage them to make unique items. Those who do not have craft feats must use whatever is already written up in the books.

Which is how the feat really ends up working when you consider the vast majority of Wealth to be in...

Nothing in the feat even suggests that it should be increasing your Wealth. Note that for the most part, very few are going to notice if your character has 64k worth of gear at level 10 and someone else has 61k worth of gear. The point isn't that the characters are perfectly matched. They should just be close. If you allow crafting to essentially increase the wealth a character has, and he pushes it, he will no longer be close.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
*sigh*

I wouldn't allow multiple speed ups because when I've read the rules I've never gotten the feeling that it should be allowed maybe I should read them again but I'm tired and don't care enough tonight =P.

I think the main issue it that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that I would allow the normal PCs to lose wealth in exchange for customized gear which the crafter doesn't have to suffer from. In fact the crafter in my example stayed exactly at WBL while the other characters started at WBL and could choose to lose wealth in exchange for customization which is how the rules are supposed to work.

Also there's nothing to stop the party from selling all their goods I just don't give them more than the WBL market value that would have brought them from their last level to their current level, if they want to pawn it all and end up at half the wealth that was there own choice and they don't get any extra.

Otherwise the characters never have a reason to keep loot they find because you'll introduce however much is necessary to get them to the same point even if they sell it all to get custom stuff.

And the reason I'd allow the crafter the extra gold, if you gave the others access to magic equipment by choice, is because that's the equivalent ratio assuming that the non crafters sold everything in order to get the custom gear you're allowing them to pick at the beginning of the game. In essence you're directly cheating the crafter out of the use of his feat if you don't maintain that ratio for custom goods.

The point where our opinions seem to differ is that you assume custom goods to mean anything that is not already in the book(as I understand it, obscure nonexisting items/combos/whatever), whereas I understand it to be anything which the characters are allowed to choose of their own volition instead of random junk they picked up on their murderous rampage.

The reason I would force them to use a rolled up list of treasure is because it would maintain that lack of customization which occurs for normal adventurers who wander around murdering people and trying on their pants to see how they fit.

I hope this all made sense because I'll admit I'm a bit tired.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:


I had decided not to come back but I got bored. I should be packing and cleaning since I'm moving in 2 days, but I don't feel like it.

Bummer. Moving sucks.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:


No one ever said that you can't start with more wealth. If you read the section, it is clear that starting with more wealth is not the norm. It is purely a house rule for that campaign.

You're right but it's been implied by using WBL. Sure level 1 isn't listed on the chart but that's because each class has varying money to start. You've also acknowledged the rich parents trait that grants 900gp and the wealthy character clause in the DMG. Now applying the 900gp trait with the wealthy character you've suddenly got a character with 990gp-1080gp that is the same as a level 2 character that has also been argued against by yourself. Yes it's cheesy, but, as long as its approved by others and comes with a likely backstory that accomodates this position, it's entirely plausible. RAW, untwisted and acknowledged by yourself. Just the application of a trait coupled with a seperate clause.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:


10-20% is not a significant increase. I've actually said that I don't have an issue with a slight variance in WBL by that much. My issue comes down to the potential to have more wealth than a character 1 to 2 levels higher.

176000gp doesn't seem like a little variance to me. Thats almost a +10 weapon. And it was argued near the start of this thread that no feat should be able to grant you a 25% higher WBL than other players. You're right this isn't a feat. It's a built in game mechanic to cover a different type of character that isn't the norm. And if we choose to ignore a corner case like this one then we have to ignore the corner case that is the cheese munchkin abusing the system that you guys protest as your only point of contention. So at least I've given you another point to argue that has nothing to do with crafting. Only this one has all the RAW spelled out specifically.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Others have flat out said that unique items are not a benefit of the craft feats. I'm having an issue with viewing Paizo right now so it's hard to scroll back to see who said it.

I sifted through the last 8 pages of this debacle and didn't notice the exact quote you're refering to either. Occupied with other things myself. I did notice a lot of people saying that its not the only benefit and asking you to recognize that it will save you money as you go with the 1/2 market cost to make. If fighter A walks into a store and haggles a better price than fighter B is his wealth not slightly altered to be higher than the average that is fighter B? If fighter A does this continually won't his WBL grow quicker than fighter B's?

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I agree that it's not unique if everyone can have it. However, it is more likely that the crafter will have the unique item than the non-crafter. You won't see much in your games from unique items. My players love this and when I mentioned this thread, they stared at me trying to figure out why anyone would allow the feats to grant them so much money. They all feel that it would be unbalancing.

This entire arguement stemmed from introducing new characters into a campaign who could potentially make a backstory to abuse the system and have more wealth than other characters. Under the premise of introducing new characters that are restricted to the WBL chart all characters have the potential to start with the exact same items. Even those ones deemed unique by your standards of in game crafting.

All of us have argued that letting a character get away with doubling his wealth is unbalancing. Not just you and your group. We on this side of the fence have just said that since we're not the munchkins you guys seem to be used to, we shouldn't be penalized for utilizing the other benefits that do come with crafting.

Just say fighter A and fighter B both want a certain magical sword. Fighter A and figher B save the gold coins that they find along with the random items they find. They both have 10000gp in items to sell and 5000gp in gold. Fighter A sells his and gets the 10000gp required to make his item. Fighter B on the other hand has a history as a blacksmith and took the feats required to imbue power into his blades himself. He also sells the items and get the 10000gp required to buy the item. Instead he takes that wealth and buys a masterwork sword and then uses the rest of the money to create an even more powerful sword than Fighter A had purchased. Suddenly his wealth is greater than fighter A's because he used his skills and his money more efficiently.

The obvious truth here is fighter A kills fighter B and now has even more money and sells his sword back and gets kick ass armor too.:D

From all your previous posts, you are now going to penalize fighter B, because he was smart and used his money to attain higher power, by giving all the treasure to fighter A since he's not as powerful as fighter B.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
We don't get to use the real world markets to help us understand the fantasy economics. They just don't compare, as you clearly point out. In fact, all of your explanation only serves to prove that you should only be using the Market Value since it would take even more work to determine how much wealth someone has. What if they took the time to mine the adamantine themselves? What if they also took the time to smelt it? There are skills that allow for this. It's just too much work on the GM's shoulders with no payoff for the poor soul who needs to be running this economy.

No. I specifically said real life economics from a business standpoint don't hold true to the individual in this regard, but would apply to WBL. This is shown in the variance of being a little above or below WBL. And quite obviously the game designers had to model the world after something. They just choose to omit the rules of business because this is a fantasy game as I also stated. I went further by stating the only thing market value does govern is a character's actual wealth and not his WBL. The issues with accomplishing your example are the ridiculous amount of time the rules place on mundane things. I recall having a conversation with my own group on how humans would never work with mithril or adamantine due to time restrictions and that's how the metals get affiliated with elves and dwarves. It's silly, truely, that to enchant something is faster and easier than making the item itself.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
You shouldn't be failing the crafting of items at any level that the item is appropriate to craft. DC 5 + Caster Level is incredibly easy to meet. By the time you can craft items, your Spellcraft check should be 3 (ranks) + 3 (class skill) + 3 (16 Intelligence) = +9. You can't fail already. If you want to speed up the crafting, then you are taking a risk or if you don't meet all the prerequisites, then you are risking things, but otherwise you shouldn't have any problems. That is an intentional mechanic. Heck, even with a measly +9, you can skip one prerequisite and rush as well, bringing you to a -1 to your check and still Take 10 and craft items just fine. By level 3, you can craft Caster Level 4 items without fail. Skill Focus, a higher Intelligence, more ranks, etc, will all make crafting so easy you wonder why there is even a rule about rolling.

You're right you shouldn't be. Making magic items is far too easy and if it wasn't in this thread I've said it in another; The crafting of magic items needs an overhaul in the sense of ease to make. There needs to be higher DC's and restrictions. I'm all for not allowing someone to make an item without having access to the spell. How do you mimic a divine spell if you're an arcane caster? You'd have no idea where to start to imbue an item. This is more the issue than characters being able to accumulate excessive amounts of money. If you can't make the higher tier items before x level then you could easily figure out how to limit what a person could have crafted during their career. Succeeding at the lower tiers doesn't help them cause they can only sell at the costs they paid.

Bahblahblah :D wrote:
On a side note, the crafting rule say: "This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5." Does this have a limit? If you increase the DC by +10, could you accelerate by another factor of 2? For example, the Headband of Alluring Charisma +6 would normally be 36k and a DC of 16. The base time is 16 days. If you make the DC 21, you can do it in 8 days. If you increase to 26, can you do it in 4 days? What if you increase to 31, can you do it in 2 days? At DC 36, would it be 1 day?

Gnomersy fielded this before I could get to it. The rule states it can be accelerated to 4 hours, not half the time required, so it wouldn't stack.

P.S. your name rocks. When I first found out that the owner of Loblaws was Bob I lost my s~!~. Bob Loblaw = Bahblahblah.


mdt wrote:
Khrysaor wrote:
mdt wrote:

Bob, you're wasting your time. I've argued until I'm blue in the face. They are going to insist that they are just prefectly hunkey dorey RAW. No matter how much you quote at them, they just ignore it, belittle you, and denigrate your arguments as 'waved away by Rule 0'.

It's a sucker's argument. Nothing will ever convince them they are not exactly quoting chapter and verse RAW. Even the RAW being quoted at them.

I wish they'd just take it over to homebrew/house rule instead of Rules forum, or that the devs would move this whole thread there. Then I could just ignore it, since it's all just a house rule compounded on another house rule. And anyone can house rule however they want.

mdt on page 2 wrote:
It's called "I'm taking my ball and going home, because you won't let me win!" argument. It's usually used by people who can't win, and know they're wrong, but refuse to admit it.

Cause someone's not self-righteous on this topic.

When ample evidence is presented to disuade me of this belief I will agree with you. Until then I'll continue my stand.

EDIT: that was also the comment I read that enticed me to join this thread. Seemed like an adventure.

Yep,

Congratulations. You brought me down to your level. :)

And yet I joined on page 4 or 5. Man I'm good at this. Tiger Blood!


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Nothing in the feat even suggests that it should be increasing your Wealth. Note that for the most part, very few are going to notice if your character has 64k worth of gear at level 10 and someone else has 61k worth of gear. The point isn't that the characters are perfectly matched. They should just be close. If you allow crafting to essentially increase the wealth a character has, and he pushes it, he will no longer be close.

But you said a 10-20% variance in WBL isn't that bad. At 10th level and 64000gp and that much variance you're looking at characters having 57600gp at the low end and 70400gp on the high end. That's a big difference and is supported by previous arguments.

Also the feat states you can craft items at half the market cost. This is implication enough that it now costs you half as much money to make the same items that everyone else has to buy. Sure it shouldnt work out to doubling your wealth but in every game I've ever played, you win a fight you find a mix of items and gold. If you have gold you can turn it into better items which will alter your WBL. Only way to stop this is that there is no such thing as money when you adventure. Only items to sell.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Nothing in the feat even suggests that it should be increasing your Wealth.

This is actually true. The relevant information for that is under crafting magic items where it says crafting an item takes half the market value in materials. To me, this implies that crafting something costs half as much as buying it. Which also implies that if I craft stuff instead of buying stuff, I'll have more stuff because I was able to afford twice as much stuff.

And nothing implies to me that because I've done so, the game assumes that the next time we split loot, I gain nothing because I'm ahead of WBL. (If you split it evenly and have reduced the incoming loot to mitigate the increase to WLB, you're now making the Crafting Feat hurt the entire party... this is not a good thing).

And MDT, if at any point I've "...they just ignore it, belittle you, and denigrate your arguments as 'waved away by Rule 0'." I appologize. I appreciate the concerns of the other side of this discussion, and you guys have good points.

My concern is that if you dont allow someone to benefit from Crafting Feats before the start of a game, you're telling them they are effectively down those feats until they've found loot, made it liquid, purchased crafting materials, and then invested a significant amount of time in game to benefit from those feats... which is a far cry from the fighter having to wait until the first time initiative is rolled to benefit from Power Attack.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
KrispyXIV wrote:


And MDT, if at any point I've "...they just ignore it, belittle you, and denigrate your arguments as 'waved away by Rule 0'." I appologize. I appreciate the concerns of the other side of this discussion, and you guys have good points.

No problem. I don't think you did, a couple of people did. I just get fed up with people saying Rule 0 is core so anything invoking it is RAW.

KrispyXIV wrote:


My concern is that if you dont allow someone to benefit from Crafting Feats before the start of a game, you're telling them they are effectively down those feats until they've found loot, made it liquid, purchased crafting materials, and then invested a significant amount of time in game to benefit from those feats... which is a far cry from the fighter having to wait until the first time initiative is rolled to benefit from Power Attack.

The problem with that stance is, that you're holding up two different feats to different criteria. The feats are useful as soon as they become relevant in game. Your example of Power Attack is just a feat that is more often useful than CWI. You could make the same argument in favor of Skill Focus (Profession), and say it is not fair to not have that be immediately useful pre game, by allowing the person taking it to use it pre-game to boost his wealth. After all, what if he took at at 1st level, and he's starting at 10th? That's a LONG time to be able to have been making profession checks, which directly affect wealth. Should he not get benefit of his feat?

Then you can do Skill Focus (Craft) and make the same argument, since you can craft for 1/3rd and sell for 1/2, and since he could then make the +5 to craft faster (thus being more able to make money)? Where does it stop? How do you set a limit that's not arbitrary? See why I do not like this idea? It's the old slippery slope, at what point do you stop and say 'this line, no more'? I can make arguments all day in favor of people boosting their wealth, they're all just as valid as claiming CWI does too. What artificial limit can you put in place that's not arbitrary? 10%? Why is that ok, and 11% isn't? If 11% is ok, why isn't 12% ok? Why not 90%?


mdt wrote:

The problem with that stance is, that you're holding up two different feats to different criteria. The feats are useful as soon as they become relevant in game. Your example of Power Attack is just a feat that is more often useful than CWI. You could make the same argument in favor of Skill Focus (Profession), and say it is not fair to not have that be immediately useful pre game, by allowing the person taking it to use it pre-game to boost his wealth. After all, what if he took at at 1st level, and he's starting at 10th? That's a LONG time to be able to have been making profession checks, which directly affect wealth. Should he not get benefit of his feat?

Then you can do Skill Focus (Craft) and make the same argument, since you can craft for 1/3rd and sell for 1/2, and since he could then make the +5 to craft faster (thus being more able to make money)? Where does it stop? How do you set a limit that's not arbitrary? See why I do not like this idea? It's the old slippery slope, at what point do you stop and say 'this line, no more'? I can make arguments all day in favor of people boosting their wealth, they're...

All very true, and very valid.

As a GM, I'd want to arbitrate each scenario individually; I'd want the Profession focused player to understand his choice likely will not have a huge mechanical impact, that he can be a world class Baker even without skill focus, and 'Free or Extra Money' should not be a motivator for taking a that particular feat and probably suggest something else. The Crafter, I'd probably allow to craft his personal gear at a discount for the mundane portions. The mundane stuff is unlikely to be a game breaker, especially later on.

For the guy with CWI, I'd want to see his list of crafted gear, and if it looked abusive, I'd hand it back to him and ask him not to abuse it; if necessary, I'd probably set a limit in time or number of items he can spend on crafted items for himself.

The issue is though, you're right; there is no guidance in RAW as to where that line should be drawn, or even if it should exist, which hurts new GM's or GM's looking to run with as little overhead as possible... which ironically, is where the books should be sure to cover most of all (as they are the ones most in need of such guidance). And what I feel comfortable with as a GM is obviously not the same as what other GM's feel comfortable with.

So yeah... this issue is complicated. And sucks. And could do with more guidance in the rules as to how to run it :)


gnomersy wrote:
I wouldn't allow multiple speed ups because when I've read the rules I've never gotten the feeling that it should be allowed maybe I should read them again but I'm tired and don't care enough tonight =P.

However, there is nothing that says they shouldn't be allowed to do this. At least that's the argument made for crafting before the campaign begins. I don't see much of a difference.

Quote:
I think the main issue it that you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying that I would allow the normal PCs to lose wealth in exchange for customized gear which the crafter doesn't have to suffer from. In fact the crafter in my example stayed exactly at WBL while the other characters started at WBL and could choose to lose wealth in exchange for customization which is how the rules are supposed to work.

They aren't actually losing wealth though. In your example, and the way the system works, is that the item is made at one value and has a different market value, which is what the wealth of the character is based on.

Quote:
Also there's nothing to stop the party from selling all their goods I just don't give them more than the WBL market value that would have brought them from their last level to their current level, if they want to pawn it all and end up at half the wealth that was there own choice and they don't get any extra.

So if a party of non-crafting wizards manages to defeat a bunch of orcs armed with +1 great axes, end up losing wealth because they couldn't do anything with the loot? What about consumables? Those are meant to be used up. You don't adjust the loot accordingly, especially at lower levels where the PCs probably see more consumables in their loot than they do at higher levels (in other words, a higher percentage of their wealth are consumables)?

Quote:
Otherwise the characters never have a reason to keep loot they find because you'll introduce however much is necessary to get them to the same point even if they sell it all to get custom stuff.

If I place a +1 great axe in the adventure and no one wants it so they sell it off for 1000 gold, that's great. If they don't craft anything with that gold, then I only need to be worried about 1000 more gold. However, as GM, I should have a pretty good idea of what the party wants/needs. I also should have a pretty good idea of how the enemy should be equipped. Using this information, I should be able to drop a few things that they could use and I should know that they won't keep everything. Heck, even if they take out two NPCs with +1 long swords, the fighter probably only needs one of them. The other ends up being extraneous loot.

Quote:
And the reason I'd allow the crafter the extra gold, if you gave the others access to magic equipment by choice, is because that's the equivalent ratio assuming that the non crafters sold everything in order to get the custom gear you're allowing them to pick at the beginning of the game. In essence you're directly cheating the crafter out of the use of his feat if you don't maintain that ratio for custom goods.

That is the general assumption that I'm coming from. The crafters sold the extra stuff at 1/2 price and used that to create what they wanted at 1/2 price, keeping their actual Wealth the same.

Quote:
The point where our opinions seem to differ is that you assume custom goods to mean anything that is not already in the book(as I understand it, obscure nonexisting items/combos/whatever), whereas I understand it to be anything which the characters are allowed to choose of their own volition instead of random junk they picked up on their murderous rampage.

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about custom goods before the campaign starts. Afterwards, custom goods are just things you make that are tailored by you.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
KrispyXIV wrote:


All very true, and very valid.

As a GM, I'd want to arbitrate each scenario individually; I'd want the Profession focused player to understand his choice likely will not have a huge mechanical impact, that he can be a world class Baker even without skill focus, and 'Free or Extra Money' should not be a motivator for taking a that particular feat and probably suggest something else. The Crafter, I'd probably allow to craft his personal gear at a discount for the mundane portions. The mundane stuff is unlikely to be a game breaker, especially later on.

For the guy with CWI, I'd want to see his list of crafted gear, and if it looked abusive, I'd hand it back to him and ask him not to abuse it; if necessary, I'd probably set a limit in time or number of items he can spend on crafted items for himself.

See, and this is the trap.

Now it's down to the GM making a judgement call on something that can add a lot of power to an individual character. And what it will come down to is, almost certainly, which player is the best used car salesman. Who can do the diplomacy better. Who the GM likes better. There's no way to keep that objective.

That's why the WBL tables should be used as is, without house ruling that craft can increase them. Because while it might not be 'fair' to the guy taking craft, it is fair in that everyone plays by the same rules, instead of whoever can best schmooze the GM get's the most money.


Khrysaor wrote:
Bummer. Moving sucks.

It could be worse. It’s not like my car didn’t decide to die while driving home from work on the freeway a week before I have to move. That would have just made for a crappy week. By the way, I had a crappy week.

Quote:
You're right but it's been implied by using WBL. Sure level 1 isn't listed on the chart but that's because each class has varying money to start. You've also acknowledged the rich parents trait that grants 900gp and the wealthy character clause in the DMG. Now applying the 900gp trait with the wealthy character you've suddenly got a character with 990gp-1080gp that is the same as a level 2 character that has also been argued against by yourself. Yes it's cheesy, but, as long as its approved by others and comes with a likely backstory that accomodates this position, it's entirely plausible. RAW, untwisted and acknowledged by yourself. Just the application of a trait coupled with a seperate clause.

I actually think that the Rich Parents trait already makes you…wealthy. A GM that is also increasing starting wealth beyond that is going to find that encounters are going to work very differently. I haven’t played WoW in years. My friend’s kids still play and I was watching one of them make a new 1st level character. He has some BoA (Bind on Account?, I keep telling him it’s Bank of America but I don’t think he believes me.). This makes him significantly more powerful than other low level characters. This is essentially the same thing. If you allow someone to have Rich Parents and then grant them 20% more wealth and they craft some geat before the game starts, they could start with gear never meant for very low level characters. A ranger starting with a mithril shirt (366 gold), a cold iron longsword (110 gold), and a silver dagger (107 gold) still has 317 gold to play with. That’s a lot for a 1st level character. He has seen a boost to his skills (no armor check penalty), a boost on his attacks (+1 to hit with each weapon), and has special materials to boot. Maybe I’m too old school, but that seems like way too much for a 1st level character.

Quote:
176000gp doesn't seem like a little variance to me. Thats almost a +10 weapon. And it was argued near the start of this thread that no feat should be able to grant you a 25% higher WBL than other players. You're right this isn't a feat. It's a built in game mechanic to cover a different type of character that isn't the norm. And if we choose to ignore a corner case like this one then we have to ignore the corner case that is the cheese munchkin abusing the system that you guys protest as your only point of contention. So at least I've given you another point to argue that has nothing to do with crafting. Only this one has all the RAW spelled out specifically.

We’re talking about a 20th level character. 20% isn’t that much overall. It seems like it until you put it in perspective of level 20, then it’s not much at all. I have tried hard to avoid using precise numbers when I say that a feat shouldn’t increase your wealth by a certain amount. I have tried to continuously use the phrase from the CRB: “roughly equal.” That gives a lot of leeway. I’ve also mentioned that it is a gut feeling when someone is no longer “roughly equal.” For myself, that can mean something very different than what mdt sees or yourself or Buri or anyone else. A4th level fighter with a flesh golem manual (8,000 gold) isn’t more powerful than a wizard with a headband of vast Intelligence +2. Of course, I would question why the fighter is holding on to that manual but that’s a different issue.

Quote:
I sifted through the last 8 pages of this debacle and didn't notice the exact quote you're refering to either. Occupied with other things myself. I did notice a lot of people saying that its not the only benefit and asking you to recognize that it will save you money as you go with the 1/2 market cost to make. If fighter A walks into a store and haggles a better price than fighter B is his wealth not slightly altered to be higher than the average that is fighter B? If fighter A does this continually won't his WBL grow quicker than fighter B's?

There aren’t any rules for haggling the prices down. I allow for negotiating prices, but there isn’t any RAW for it. Even then, I don’t let it overshadow the WBL. So long as the characters are all all roughly equal in wealth, I’m ok with that. So if the fighter manages to save 15% on his new kobold-killer-katana, that’s ok. If the player thinks that he is going to haggle his way to prosperity, he’s going to be surprised.

Quote:

This entire arguement stemmed from introducing new characters into a campaign who could potentially make a backstory to abuse the system and have more wealth than other characters. Under the premise of introducing new characters that are restricted to the WBL chart all characters have the potential to start with the exact same items. Even those ones deemed unique by your standards of in game crafting.

All of us have argued that letting a character get away with doubling his wealth is unbalancing. Not just you and your group. We on this side of the fence have just said that since we're not the munchkins you guys seem to be used to, we shouldn't be penalized for utilizing the other benefits that do come with crafting.
Just say fighter A and fighter B both want a certain magical sword. Fighter A and figher B save the gold coins that they find along with the random items they find. They both have 10000gp in items to sell and 5000gp in gold. Fighter A sells his and gets the 10000gp required to make his item. Fighter B on the other hand has a history as a blacksmith and took the feats required to imbue power into his blades himself. He also sells the items and get the 10000gp required to buy the item. Instead he takes that wealth and buys a masterwork sword and then uses the rest of the money to create an even more powerful sword than Fighter A had purchased. Suddenly his wealth is greater than fighter A's because he used his skills and his money more efficiently.
The obvious truth here is fighter A kills fighter B and now has even more money and sells his sword back and gets kick ass armor too.:D

This is what is supposed to happen. What I’m supposed to do, as GM, is provide encounters that produce little to no loot to make up that difference. From the CRB:

Quote:
Encounters against NPCs typically award three times the treasure a monster-based encounter awards, due to NPC gear. To compensate, make sure the PCs face off against a pair of additional encounters that award little in the way of treasure. Animals, plants, constructs, mindless undead, oozes, and traps are great “low treasure” encounters. Alternatively, if the PCs face a number of creatures with little or no treasure, they should have the opportunity to acquire a number of significantly more valuable objects sometime in the near future to make up for the imbalance.
Quote:
From all your previous posts, you are now going to penalize fighter B, because he was smart and used his money to attain higher power, by giving all the treasure to fighter A since he's not as powerful as fighter B.

There is no penalizing anyone. The idea is that no one overshadows anyone else just because a few feats are suitable for a select few classes.

Quote:
No. I specifically said real life economics from a business standpoint don't hold true to the individual in this regard, but would apply to WBL. This is shown in the variance of being a little above or below WBL. And quite obviously the game designers had to model the world after something. They just choose to omit the rules of business because this is a fantasy game as I also stated. I went further by stating the only thing market value does govern is a character's actual wealth and not his WBL. The issues with accomplishing your example are the ridiculous amount of time the rules place on mundane things. I recall having a conversation with my own group on how humans would never work with mithril or adamantine due to time restrictions and that's how the metals get affiliated with elves and dwarves. It's silly, truely, that to enchant something is faster and easier than making the item itself.

The regular crafting rules need a lot of work. I’ve got some ideas that I’m mulling over but since it hasn’t been an issue yet, I haven’t worried about it much. A character’s actual wealth should be close to the soft target value of the Wealth by Level.

Quote:
Bahblahblah :D wrote:

I should start a Law Blog…

Quote:
P.S. your name rocks. When I first found out that the owner of Loblaws was Bob I lost my s+$&. Bob Loblaw = Bahblahblah.

You would be surprised how often I have to explain it to people. I usually just tell them to say it out loud. Even then, some don’t get it. Then again, some don’t have any sense of humor either.


mdt wrote:


See, and this is the trap.

Now it's down to the GM making a judgement call on something that can add a lot of power to an individual character. And what it will come down to is, almost certainly, which player is the best used car salesman. Who can do the diplomacy better. Who the GM likes better. There's no way to keep that objective.

That's why the WBL tables should be used as is, without house ruling that craft can increase them. Because while it might not be 'fair' to the guy taking craft, it is fair in that everyone plays by the same rules, instead of whoever can best schmooze the GM get's the most money.

This reminds me of something like, "Well kids, because Johnny can't play nice, now nobody gets to play with the crafting feat."

As well, anything that increases player interaction with the DM is good in my book. I have the hardest time getting people to send me enough backstory and character details anyway; provoking character discussion as much as possible helps, in my opinion. And my rule is to never do something for one player that isn't an option for everyone at the table.

But if one guy sitting down with a benefit he got because he took the time to have a conversation about his character with me provokes others to get involved as well, I'm not going to complain.

Again, personal opinion experience, YMMV. There is something to be said for a perfectly level playing field.


Khrysaor wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Nothing in the feat even suggests that it should be increasing your Wealth. Note that for the most part, very few are going to notice if your character has 64k worth of gear at level 10 and someone else has 61k worth of gear. The point isn't that the characters are perfectly matched. They should just be close. If you allow crafting to essentially increase the wealth a character has, and he pushes it, he will no longer be close.
But you said a 10-20% variance in WBL isn't that bad. At 10th level and 64000gp and that much variance you're looking at characters having 57600gp at the low end and 70400gp on the high end. That's a big difference and is supported by previous arguments.

This is just fine by me so long as their isn't a significant difference in power. As I've mentioned, this is more of a gut feeling than a hard value. If someone has a lot invested in wands and potions, he's (hopefully) going to be using his wealth. If someone is playing a gunslinger, he's likely to see his wealth drop rapidly (11 gold per shot?!?!?). If someone has 20% more wealth than another, then I know that I don't have to worry about putting anything special in the game for that character. If someone else has 20% less as well, then maybe he needs some lovin and, as GM, that's my job. To make sure that the characters are all roughly balanced to each other.

Quote:
Also the feat states you can craft items at half the market cost. This is implication enough that it now costs you half as much money to make the same items that everyone else has to buy. Sure it shouldnt work out to doubling your wealth but in every game I've ever played, you win a fight you find a mix of items and gold. If you have gold you can turn it into better items which will alter your WBL. Only way to stop this is that there is no such thing as money when you adventure. Only items to sell.

They actually don't craft at half Market Value. They craft at half base value. For many items, this is the same thing. For plenty of others (more notably weapons and armor), these numbers are different.

Having gold doesn't automatically alter your WBL. The GM should lower some treasure piles if you are getting enough to significantly increase your wealth beyond your WBL.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Stuff.

The reason that it doesn't stack is because setting 4 hours of work to the 1000gp of work rather than 8 hours by upping the DC, cannot be cumulative if you do it twice it's still at 4 hours because it specifies that quantity exactly. On the other hand if it said, "You may double the speed of your crafting by raising the DC by 5" Then it can be cumulative because 2x/5DC can be applied again and again and becomes 4x/10 8x/15 etc.

But they do lose wealth because normal players must sell goods at half of market price which they use to buy an item at full retail which changes them from X to .5X value of loot. And as I said I'd give them the WBL in loot, if they want custom goods and sell it the next guy they fight doesn't automatically have another 10k in shiny junk laying around to give them.

Consumables count against wealth even though they're used up because you never know how long that potion or wand will stick around for and because they're getting the use out of it that it was there for. At low levels I'm more likely to throw in potions of healing and the like as a freebie but that assumes that the party is constantly courting death for some reason.

And in your case yes the party of wizards loses wealth but it's an unrealistic situation because like you say later you as the DM tailor the loot and give them things that are useable by them in general even if it isn't exactly what they want.

If you drop two +1 swords in a party you're giving them 4000gold or whatever in wealth of market price, that is reduced from the total WBL they get to have at their level. Now if they want to sell one without a crafter and reduce their effective wealth to 3000 gold that doesn't really matter on my side of the equation because I'm keeping a tally of what they get not what they do with it.

By the same virtue if they invest it in a tavern/brothel and it happens to be hideously lucrative for some reason and they get their wealth up to 5000 or 6000 gold worth of stuff that's okay too they still get the same amount of loot from adventuring.

And the point is that if you drop 2 +1 longswords but the Fighter really prefers a +1 Greataxe for whatever reason then he can talk to the Ranger who wouldn't mind a +1 sword even though he's running an archer and they agree that they'll sell one sword wait for you to drop an extra 1000gp item in the next fight and buy the +1 Greataxe that the Fighter wanted and give the +1 longsword to the Ranger and this essentially does what the craft feats are supposed to do in a slightly roundabout way.

That's why they don't get bonus money from me and instead have to pay the 1000gold extra for the Greataxe out of pocket. Thus when they lack crafters they trade off between wealth or tailored goods while the crafter gets to keep wealth and tailored goods.

Bob wrote:

That is the general assumption that I'm coming from. The crafters sold the extra stuff at 1/2 price and used that to create what they wanted at 1/2 price, keeping their actual Wealth the same.

That's exactly what I mean when I talk about custom goods before the campaign starts. Afterwards, custom goods are just things you make that are tailored by you.

See that's the thing though as far as the game is concerned crafting makes everything in the game and traveling loot doesn't always fit your wants even if it fits your general needs.

So by giving the rest of the party what I would count as custom goods aka. anything in the book of their choice it would be like I let the normal characters sell all of their goods at full market price to buy specialized gear with which is what the feat is supposed to do so I either give the crafter 2x WBL or I penalize the others by 50% of their WBL for getting exactly what they want.

Alternatively like I said they can get full WBL but then I get to choose what magical items they have found to add up to their full WBL and then they can sell that following the normal rules to exchange it for custom goods at half value for whatever they don't like.

The reason I don't use your idea of custom goods is because the stuff in the book is already so varied and encompasses practically everything I can think of them needing that it amounts to allowing my characters to trade a feat for fluff and reskining items to make silly things that normally I'd just shrug and let them have for whatever price made sense based on similar items.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:


It could be worse. It’s not like my car didn’t decide to die while driving home from work on the freeway a week before I have to move. That would have just made for a crappy week. By the way, I had a crappy week.

Haha. It gets better bud. New place, fresh start. After the headaches of moving anyway.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I actually think that the Rich Parents trait already makes you…wealthy. A GM that is also increasing starting wealth beyond that is going to find that encounters are going to work very differently. I haven’t played WoW in years. My friend’s kids still play and I was watching one of them make a new 1st level character. He has some BoA (Bind on Account?, I keep telling him it’s Bank of America but I don’t think he believes me.). This makes him significantly more powerful than other low level characters. This is essentially the same thing. If you allow someone to have Rich Parents and then grant them 20% more wealth and they craft some geat before the game starts, they could start with gear never meant for very low level characters. A ranger starting with a mithril shirt (366 gold), a cold iron longsword (110 gold), and a silver dagger (107 gold) still has 317 gold to play with. That’s a lot for a 1st level character. He has seen a boost to his skills (no armor check penalty), a boost on his attacks (+1 to hit with each weapon), and has special materials to boot. Maybe I’m too old school, but that seems like way too much for a 1st level character.

I never played WoW. I played FFXI and heard how easy WoW was by comparison and said screw that. You're right having Rich Parents does make you a wealthy character but saying a rule in the DMG shouldn't apply because someone took a certain trait now puts more emphasis on the value of traits. I just meant that by RAW it is perfectly viable to have a character try this option. It's just that GM's more than likely wouldn't allow it. And I didn't mean for the comment to open up the pre-crafting can of worms, I just wanted to point out that playing the rules a character can start with more wealth than a level 2 character. And I'm also in agreement with you that it's too much for a level 1 character. I stated a while back that I agree with you guys on no pre-game crafting for a level 1 unless the GM is cool with it and it doesn't unbalance things. My major concern was with no pre-game crafting for post level 1 characters that could have been crafters as they adventured prior to joining in your campaigns. This still requires the GM to take a look at what the character is trying to ensure its not munchkinism looking to be OP.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
We’re talking about a 20th level character. 20% isn’t that much overall. It seems like it until you put it in perspective of level 20, then it’s not much at all. I have tried hard to avoid using precise numbers when I say that a feat shouldn’t increase your wealth by a certain amount. I have tried to continuously use the phrase from the CRB: “roughly equal.” That gives a lot of leeway. I’ve also mentioned that it is a gut feeling when someone is no longer “roughly equal.” For myself, that can mean something very different than what mdt sees or yourself or Buri or anyone else. A4th level fighter with a flesh golem manual (8,000 gold) isn’t more powerful than a wizard with a headband of vast Intelligence +2. Of course, I would question why the fighter is holding on to that manual but that’s a different issue.

I still think having a secondary weapon that's a +10 sword or something is pretty impressive even at level 20. But like your level 10 example where players have 62000gp, a 20% increase is 12400gp. That's still some decent items to provide advantage over the rest of the party. That's a set of Boots of Speed for the rich guy when no one else has them or maybe not even a haste equivalent. Sure someone should have haste at that level but there's many other 12000gp items that could be inserted here.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
There aren’t any rules for haggling the prices down. I allow for negotiating prices, but there isn’t any RAW for it. Even then, I don’t let it overshadow the WBL. So long as the characters are all all roughly equal in wealth, I’m ok with that. So if the fighter manages to save 15% on his new kobold-killer-katana, that’s ok. If the player thinks that he is going to haggle his way to prosperity, he’s going to be surprised.

I know there's no rules for haggling. It was just an example of how people can get an edge on others in real life. I know lots of people that haggle effectively today. I wish there was a haggling dynamic. Been suggesting an opposed roll for it like diplomacy+bluff+appraise+sense motives or something. I try thinking of flea markets where you get those seedy individuals hawking wares. In this example though it still needs to be some kind of roll and not something really determined by you directly. Just kinda tweaking your merchants to increase the DC's for your players to succeed.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

This is what is supposed to happen. What I’m supposed to do, as GM, is provide encounters that produce little to no loot to make up that difference. From the CRB:

Quote:

Encounters against NPCs typically award three times the treasure a monster-based encounter awards, due to NPC gear. To compensate, make sure the PCs face off against a pair of additional encounters that award little in the way of treasure. Animals, plants, constructs, mindless undead, oozes, and traps are great “low treasure” encounters. Alternatively, if the PCs face a number of creatures with little or no treasure, they should have the opportunity to acquire a number of significantly more valuable objects sometime in the near future to make up for the imbalance.

Unfortunately this will always be the case with the crafter. He will be able to use his money to make what he wants to pull ahead only to have his portion of treasure gained reduced so the rest of the party can catch up to him. This is the penalizing I was refering to. You'll have non-crafters getting items on their wishlist or class specific items all the time while the crafter has to make use of his abilities all the time. Crafting so he can keep pace with everyone you're awarding extra to. You're saying that because the crafter can keep pace in WBL with fewer needs, he better keep it up or he will fall behind. If he chooses to stop crafting because he feels there's no point if he can just choose other feats and get everything he wanted anyway, and then when he's caught up to everyone else he pulls the fast one of crafting again, he is suddenly ahead of everyone else. But you were awarding equal shares to everyone in the latter that he took advantage of later.

In the ideal world, all members of an adventuring group are entitled to their equal portion of treasure. If there's 4 memebers they each get 1/4. 5 memebers each get 1/5th and so on. If the crafter keeps pulling ahead because of his feats, and now to even things up the treasure is split 1/4 to everyone else in a party of 5, that crafter would be hard pressed to keep playing a crafter as the rest of the party is taking advantage of him. He's contributing equally. Taking the hits equally. Risking his life equally. More than likely, as a caster, he's the glue keeping everyone alive healing or controlling combat. Without him, the party might suffer exhausting periods of downtime. But since he chose to go the route of imbuing magic items he's not entitled to the treasure.

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
This is just fine by me so long as their isn't a significant difference in power. As I've mentioned, this is more of a gut feeling than a hard value. If someone has a lot invested in wands and potions, he's (hopefully) going to be using his wealth. If someone is playing a gunslinger, he's likely to see his wealth drop rapidly (11 gold per shot?!?!?). If someone has 20% more wealth than another, then I know that I don't have to worry about putting anything special in the game for that character. If someone else has 20% less as well, then maybe he needs some lovin and, as GM, that's my job. To make sure that the characters are all roughly balanced to each other.

The problem with this is that you can have people abusing the consumable market. They take craft wand and invest all of their money in wands. Every combat they just spam wands. Yes they'll suck as wands arent' that great until its a wizard with Staff-Like Wand. Because they've kept up to everyone else in WBL by making wands it satisfies your arguement. Now that player spams his wands for a few combats and his WBL drops 20% lower than the standard. You award him with 20% in items to compensate for his lacking power. He takes more gold and creates more wands spiking his WBL 20% above. You now tell him he's not allowed items until the rest of the party catches up to him. You award the rest of the party and he spams all his wands and is now even more than 20% less than the party. It's a perpetual cycle of reward and revenge. Yes it'll satisfy your standards but it will create a ridiculous amount of work on your part for keeping track of the value of his consumables as you go.

The main thing I've tried emphasizing from my arguments is that this system can be abused but isn't always. You naming yourself a power gaming munchkin making charts on maximization to your current state and group are the examples of both. Just because something can be abused doesn't mean it needs rules to stop it from happening or there will be a lot more to come as there are a plethora of facets to this game that can be power gamed. When I was repeatedly referring to rule 0 it was with the intention that GM's are the ones who will have to keep the munchkins down. If, at some future date, a rule is implemented that changes this dynamic that reduces the impact of munchkins I would be all for it as long as it doesn't cripple those of us that like the small bonuses that come along the way and don't want to abuse this.

I've also been trying to explain that, inherently, craft feats affect wealth as they are directly applicable to wealth. It doesn't specifially state this in the feat description but it does in the crafting magic items section that states, a character can craft an item for 1/2 the base value. This creates the potential for a crafter to have more material wealth than a non-crafter by using up his gold coins to purchase the materials to make new items where the non-crafter can only buy items from a crafter at full market value.

So you have two level 10 characters each with 62000gp according to WBL. The non-crafter accumulate and spent all his on items and saved 1000gp to have on hand for inns, stables, maybe to buy a horse/cart if he doesn't have one or any other minor need that pops up. The crafter on the other hand accumulated a bunch of items as well but didn't spend any of his liquid cash on items since he can better utilize it on crafting.

The problem could easily be solved by telling the crafter you can only spend x% of your wealth on crafting materials pre-game to be crafted according to a good backstory that doesn't come across cheesy, or gamebreaking. If someone came to me with a level 10 wizard and said they got to level 3, took CWI, and began crafting as he adventured I wouldn't allow him double his wealth either. I'd let him know that he didn't find only gold on his adventure. He found a bunch of useful items or just magic items that he sold to craft the money with at a 1:1 ratio for market values along with finding gold. The only resource here that he was capable of making money on was the gold coins he found and did not attain by selling anything. This is still hard for the GM to determine how much in items and how much gold was found. As I've said for my campaigns we tend to just pool items sell them, and split the gold with everyone. This is more beneficial to the crafter but most crafters we have like helping the party or don't want to take advantage. Or we're never in a big enough town to get what we need(maybe there's no magic crafting materials just a shop that buys/sells the items themselves). No matter how you spin it though a crafter that gets gold is happy as he can double it in items with time, and now his WBL will be above the rest. This is the roughly equal part but roughly is not a number limitation so how much do we allow for this crafting. If you say 0% then they might as well drop the craft feats and take anything else as crafting isn't as valuable as it should be.


I think I should explain more on how I reward the characters with wealth. I don't generally place items for any particular character. I tend to place items based on the enemy, not the party. I equip the enemies appropriately and let the party figure out what they are going to do with the loot. Often, they sell it off. Sometimes they get half value, sometimes they get more, sometimes they get less.

The way I determine how much is found is I create a budget for the adventure. I look at the total wealth for the party. Let's assume it's a party of 5 and they are level 7 (the characters in my group are always the same level). So at level 7 they should have between 23,500 and 33,000 gold each. That's 117,500 to 165,000 total wealth for the party. I then look at how far along they are to level 8. Let's say they are about half way there. They should have about 141,250 in wealth total. If their total wealth is 130,000 then I look at adding about 11,000 to the adventure.

Now I look at the adventure. Where and how should that wealth be placed? If they are headed into the Maze of Cattle Slaughter, I look at what the enemies are and how they should be equipped. I may have the majority of the minotaur equipped as written, since the greataxes aren't worth much to a 7th level party, I don't count that in the wealth. A few of the more powerful ones might have masterwork ones. Those I would count because they are worth over 300 gold each. Let's say there are 5 of them. That's 1500 gold. Give the boss some rhino hide (5165 gold) and we're up to 6665 gold. I have 4335 left to spend. A let's toss in four potions of cure moderate wounds for 1200 gold. I'm also in a generous mood and I want the big bad to be really tough so I add in a belt of giant strength +2 for 4000 gold. I've exceeded my budget a bit (11,865 total). Not a problem overall. So what about some loose coins to make it seem more real? Sure, I can toss in a total of about 200 gold. That brings me up to about 12,000 total wealth. The party is still close to where I want them so I can deal with that. I just need to divvy up the gold among the minotaur and other creatures.

What does the party do with all of this? That's not my problem. I provided the wealth and they need to figure out what to do with it. It is likely that they will sell most of it off.

Crafting is incredibly useful in my campaigns because you don't usually get what you want. Even if you can just commission it, you still have to find someone who has the time or inclination to craft for you.

I also have the PCs build relationships with NPCs. They might get a better deal if they sell the right items to the right NPC. They may not have much of a choice and have to sell some stuff to the wrong NPC. I have seen the party donate dozens of masterwork longswords to a community to help them with lizardfolk in the area. They got full value for these weapons since the townsfolk felt that they had more value than 150 gold each. This allowed them to craft some gear that they wanted (cloaks of displacement) since they had enough cash to do so and the cloaks weren't available where they were.

My players love crafting. The wizard tried to scribe one scroll a day. Sometimes he works on a wand (he has Staff-like Wand). He does most of this while adventuring. When the party is back in town, the ranger likes to head out to the militia and help them with crafting bows and arrows. He doesn't make much money off this, but he does make friends and this gets him favors.

I don't have to worry about my players abusing the crafting rules because I follow the Wealth by Level closely. They know that they won't be able to abuse it. The closest I've seen in my current group is the wizard using much of his savings to learn new spells. This hasn't given him much more power since he is still limited to what he can cast. It has given him more versatility, which is fine.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

I think I should explain more on how I reward the characters with wealth. I don't generally place items for any particular character. I tend to place items based on the enemy, not the party. I equip the enemies appropriately and let the party figure out what they are going to do with the loot. Often, they sell it off. Sometimes they get half value, sometimes they get more, sometimes they get less.

The way I determine how much is found is I create a budget for the adventure. I look at the total wealth for the party. Let's assume it's a party of 5 and they are level 7 (the characters in my group are always the same level). So at level 7 they should have between 23,500 and 33,000 gold each. That's 117,500 to 165,000 total wealth for the party. I then look at how far along they are to level 8. Let's say they are about half way there. They should have about 141,250 in wealth total. If their total wealth is 130,000 then I look at adding about 11,000 to the adventure.

Now I look at the adventure. Where and how should that wealth be placed? If they are headed into the Maze of Cattle Slaughter, I look at what the enemies are and how they should be equipped. I may have the majority of the minotaur equipped as written, since the greataxes aren't worth much to a 7th level party, I don't count that in the wealth. A few of the more powerful ones might have masterwork ones. Those I would count because they are worth over 300 gold each. Let's say there are 5 of them. That's 1500 gold. Give the boss some rhino hide (5165 gold) and we're up to 6665 gold. I have 4335 left to spend. A let's toss in four potions of cure moderate wounds for 1200 gold. I'm also in a generous mood and I want the big bad to be really tough so I add in a belt of giant strength +2 for 4000 gold. I've exceeded my budget a bit (11,865 total). Not a problem overall. So what about some loose coins to make it seem more real? Sure, I can toss in a total of about 200 gold. That brings me up to about 12,000 total wealth. The party is still close to where I...

If your group sells off everything and splits the money equally then the crafter is at an advantage if he has access to craft materials. He just needs the time to do so which isn't an impossibility adventuring. Slowly, his wealth will climb if this method is used to give him an overall increase compared to others. This also affects things if you don't have any crafters since you'll give the party items to accomodate WBL and then when they sell to buy something, their WBL will be diminished.

Your item distribution is pretty standard for every group I've been in for determining the wealth that drops as encounters pass. As well as having the occasional encounter vs oozes or whatever is needed to give no reward other than exp.

I like that your players take initiative to interact more with NPC's. It's a hard concept to get across to some people that prefer rolling dice for sure. We recently had an all rogue spin off 1 day campaign when a player couldn't make it that turned into a 4 session deal cause we all had so much fun. Lots of dice rolling but it was all for diplomacy, bluff, sneak, climbs and the like and lots of RP. Infiltrating a city is fun.


Khrysaor wrote:
If your group sells off everything and splits the money equally then the crafter is at an advantage if he has access to craft materials. He just needs the time to do so which isn't an impossibility adventuring. Slowly, his wealth will climb if this method is used to give him an overall increase compared to others. This also affects things if you don't have any crafters since you'll give the party items to accomodate WBL and then when they sell to buy something, their WBL will be diminished.

I don't really pay attention to how they distribute things. They have been really good at keeping things equal on their own. If they think that someone got something really good (regardless of how), then they take upon themselves to give that character less. They may not realize how powerful something is right away. Sometimes, they just let the powerful object(s) stay with one character and don't change the loot. They approach their loot as friends who are also adventurers (which they are).

[quote[Your item distribution is pretty standard for every group I've been in for determining the wealth that drops as encounters pass. As well as having the occasional encounter vs oozes or whatever is needed to give no reward other than exp.

I didn't go into a lot of detail because I didn't want a complete adventure. But yeah, I will put some things that don't have loot. I will also put things that shouldn't have loot but do. These are usually clues to what has happened or what to expect coming up. There was one room in the Age of Worms that was full of evil gear and an artifact. They could have looted it, and seriously considered it. They just didn't want the gear in the wrong hands. Instead, they locked the only two entrances to the room and then blew the mountain up around it, burying it out of sight. They killed the only guy (the evil illithid sorcerer) who knew. They buried him with the gear. They don't know that this was one of the plans to survive and eventually he will escape. They don't talk abut the treasure or the mind flayer in case someone is listening in.

When they got to a town with a larger contingent of high level characters, they allied themselves with the most powerful man in town who is also the mayor. He is the only other one outside the party who knows.

On a side note, when my Ambien kicks in, it looks like I'm quilting the words on the screen. They aren't even and are very puffy. Looks neat but makes me wonder if I'm going to ramble too much.

Quote:
I like that your players take initiative to interact more with NPC's. It's a hard concept to get across to some people that prefer rolling dice for sure. We recently had an all rogue spin off 1 day campaign when a player couldn't make it that turned into a 4 session deal cause we all had so much fun. Lots of dice rolling but it was all for diplomacy, bluff, sneak, climbs and the like and lots of RP. Infiltrating a city is fun.

This was something that I told them from day 1. A couple players took me seriously. The rest didn't. As the campaign started to advance, they began seeing what it's like to have friends. They saw how to make friends and influence people. They kept notes on which party member was favored with which NPC. They kept track of all of this and that's who they would want to send to get more benefits. As the NPCs began to trust and like the PCs, there were times when a special items was either known about or simply brought forth. The first time this happened, everyone that hadn't put some ranks into social skills found they were going to have a harder time. This was especially true of the half-orc. With a Charisma of 8 and a crappy tattoo on his face (it's actually just dried ink that he has saved because it prevented the party from killing him during a doppleganger fight) he felt that he needed more than just to be disliked or indifferent. His Diplomacy is now a 6 and his Sense Motive is a 28. It's not much but it does help.

The Bluff skills range from: -2 to 17 (Ranger)
The Diplomacy skills range from: -2 to 29 (Paladin)
The Intimidate skills range from: -1 to 31 (Fighter)
The Sense Motive skills range from: 2 to 28 (Inquisitor)

Other characters that decided to invest are closer to the high values. Like the fighter has a 26 Diplomacy.

All of this has helped them greatly. They have managed to find ways to craft in peace. They have found people willing and able to craft. They have found people willing to give them short cuts (like taking the hide of a displacer beast instead of using the diplacement spell).

My players love rolling dice and they seek out any way to get the dice hitting the table. I have seen the paladin ask if she could use her Knowledge (religion) instead of Diplomacy to impress someone from a rival, but not enemy church. I have seen the fighter use Diplomacy to gain the trust of the enemy lizardfolk. This gave him a lot of information on what was corrupting the potions and the lizardfolk eggs. Because he had the trust of the lizardfolk shaman, when it came to destroying the infested eggs and trying to save as many non-infested eggs, he gained the trust of the shaman. This shaman was the last one because the party had already killed everyone else off. They now have an ally with the lizardfolk and the local area will aid them. Now they have an ally in the swamps instead of an enemy.

I think my meds are kicked in completely. I may have rambled on without saying a whole lot about WBL. So here's my contribution: WBL doesn't take into account armies of lizardfolk or gear that you aren't using (the displacer beast hides). The gear you do end up using later, like the hides, end up being part of your wealth. It's time for bed. I have a long day of moving ahead. My WBL is about to drop a lot for the 1st month's rent and deposit.

351 to 390 of 390 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Scribe Scroll with starting gold All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.