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15 point by is a good way to make monks, rogues and fighters look even worse than normal.
My group does 15 point buy and we do not let players drop ability scores below 10 (that's just cheesy).How is a character having strengths and weaknesses "cheesy"?
I honestly never quite got this argument: On the one hand people are whining about dump stats being cheesy but on the other... How is a character who isn't bad at anything they do particularly compelling roleplay? There seems to be a huge disconnect there.
So only a 'flawed' person can make a compelling roleplay character?
Yes, have you not played th game?
yup. Didn't need a 20 strength on my barbarian at lvl 1 to wreck encounters either.
Often times you need to "dump" or else you're to easy to kill
Maybe your gm would only use enemies tactics as written in the AP if his players weren't min maxing to trivialize encounters. The abuse cycle thing you know.
This is the default point buy for my campaigns. It strikes just the right balance for me.
So a 15 pb wizard/cleric/any full caster can start with 18 pcs and 13con and be completely and fully effective. Meanwhile a martial with 18str and 13 con is full of weaknesses.
Yeah, 15 point buy is fair.
So a 15 pb wizard/cleric/any full caster can start with 18 pcs and 13con and be completely and fully effective. Meanwhile a martial with 18str and 13 con is full of weaknesses.
Yeah, 15 point buy is fair.
This is essentially my biggest problem with low point buy, it hurts MAD classes much more than SAD classes and many of the MADest classes in pathfinder are martial characters who are of questionable effectiveness to begin with.
The wizard who can't dump a few extra points into dex and wisdom is disappointed, but unharmed, the fighter or non zen monk however, ends up taking a bit hit to something they need.
Hence why I run 20 pb or 25 pb no dump
Sometimes 20pb no dump. Depends on the game and what classes are in the game.
Just saying that if we dont have dumps a wizard can just buy int and con and be amazing because he doesnt need other stats. In fact most full casters just need the casting stat and con to be fine.
Meanwhile melee man needs str,con, dex, wis to function.
Higher point buys somewhat balances the classes because of diminishing returns on buying high stats.
The ONLY way to irritate SAD characters is to roll stats. In every other scenario they are better than MAD... heck if you roll well they might even be better in rolling too.
@Aranna - There are usually some actual mechanical drawbacks to dumping a stat, so it is nice to get some mechanical benefits by raising another. Raising the point buy but banning dumping kind of gives those who aren't willing to dump the benefits of dumping without the drawbacks. It seems like a mostly cosmetic change to me. If you want to hurt the SAD characters maybe you'd be better off capping the high stat instead or using an array (which probably would include a stat under 10)
Anyhow, Rangers can dump Int and Cha, so I’m not sure why allowing stat dumping would make them much worse than Barbarians. The reason Rangers can’t dump Wis is because it helps them get spells, which are a useful tool the Barbarian doesn't have. Whether Barbarian is a better class than Ranger and why seems like a discussion for another thread. Comparisons between dumped and undumped PCs of the same class might be more compelling.
Devilkiller you are walking into the barbarian vs ranger thing uninformed. That was that latest response to my original min/maxed barbarian vs ranger with no dump stats example. The class choice was unimportant aside from both being melee specialists.
The drawbacks to dumping an unnecessary stat are minimal at best. There really shouldn't be any benefit to dumping.
I use a growing 15 point buy... or better to say a growing 16 point buy.
Instead of giving flat bonuses every 4 level i give 1 point-buy per level +1 every 4 levels.
This way a min/maxed character and a more balanced character will always have the same point by build, SAD characters are able to dump everything in their main stat that will cost more and more but in the end will gain the same advancement, meanwhile MAD characters can spread their advancement on multiple ability scores for a lot less.
e.g. A SAD char needs 8 level to take is relevant ability score from 18 to 20(remaining with 1 point), while a MAD char with the same levels can bring TWO stats from 10 to 14.
This way who wants to min/max will be maxed out as always, meanwhile more balanced character won't be left behind, because they need a lot less levels to advance...
I noticed this also incentivizes balancing out because if you make high level stats more of an investment than low ones players won't feel the need to spend their only advancement in already high stats to not let those same advancement go to waste.
I had a human barbarian player who started with a min maxed 17(+2)12 16 8 7 7 because he built with the base game assumption. Now, at level 8, he spent some points to bring up strenghth to 20, intelligence to 10 and is thinking about bringing up wisdom and charisma to at least 8 because by the end of the chronicle he will have some points that he won't use in strenght anyway because they are not enough to make it go up more...
Also by end game you wont have a wizard that has:
Str 7
Dex14
Con 14
Int 25(+tome/wish+items)
Wis 7
Cha 7
wich is the equivalent of a 46 point by and the monk with:
Str 18(+wish/tomes+items)
Dex 14(+wish/tomes+items)
Con 12
Int 9
Wis 14(+wish/tomes+items)
Cha 7
wich equals to a 24 (almost half that of the wizard) and is more expensive.
(This system was suggested on this boards some times ago, not by me)
I've been using 15-point buy since the First Printing and have never had an issue with it or have my players complain about it. Works just fine.
Generally speaking my group uses 20 pt buy there are no rules against dumping but most don't do more than 1 stat to 8.
My only issue with 15 buy is it favours sad characters. I often on 20 pt buy use the extra 5 pts for cpncept stuff.
For myself I cpuldnt play a 7 int fightee not because I'm against it but simply skills arr how a character interacts with the world outside of combat.
My GM made us do it for the Wrath of the Righteous campaign that we just started. Two players in the group decided to roll paladins and the other two of us decided to roll playtest warpriests. I am am playing one of the warpriests, and I have to say it was pretty painful. My GM was nice and allowed me to play an Aasimar, which I'm loving from a role-playing perspective, but the stat boosts were nice too. Still sitting with a 9 INT and nothing higher than a 15 though. I can sort of see why he did it, since we just got our first mythic level.
TLDR - It's rough, but we managed, even with 4 MAD characters.
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I am glad I came across this thread. In the past I really thought down of 15 point buy and loved playing 20 in PFS. I have become a little jaded about some of the obscene level of min/max, or overly optimized PCs who I regularly see played. Especially the awesome display oracle who completly subverts the defenes of both AC/HP. I think the problem is based way much, much more on the players gaming the system and finding rules that are just too good such as awesome display or the use of undead that work for days at a time on a single casting of lesser create undead/blood money. None the less, I do believe a 15 point buy would have a substantial impact on the effectiveness of PCs. With that being the case, I am now very interested in running a game on 15 and seeing if I can run the published adventures as written instead of always having to buff up the enemy to present any challenge at all.
I decided to make a 15 party to playtest the combats before running them for actual players and found that it is really hard to make martial/caster multi classed PCs without dumping down to 7 on at least one if not two scores. I also find the desire for an 18str for 2handed damage really encourages dumpping dex. I figure that without a shield, you have terrible ac so why bother at that point. Too many times, I tried playing a mellee caster cleric with a 14 str and a one handed weapon and just felt the attack to be negligible. Often a 14 str on 3/4 bab missed and when it did connect, it did negligible damage. This is very deeply influencing me to dump so I can get an 18 str for the attack to have a much better chance to hit and mean somthing damage wise when it does. Again, I think that need for an 18 str is much more pronounced on a 3/4 bab class.
I am also thinking the level you start makes a huge difference. Knowing that you start at level 4 or higher means you get an extra ability score and could feel much more justified buying an odd number knowing your level 4 stat bump can make it even.
I frequently see DMs use 25 point buy or very liberal rolling methods and then complain bitterly about the power level of the PCs. I suggested 15 point buy to a guy who will be running an upcoming campaign, but he insisted on letting us have 20 point buy. I guess only time will tell if he regrets it, but since it is a homebrew game I'm guessing he'll just increase the CR of the monsters.
@Mojorat - A 7 Int isn't as rough for a human Bard. You need to be a little careful picking which skills to excel in, but you can still be the skill monkey and party face (if perhaps also a source of comedy if you RP the low Int a bit)
@Aranna - The drawbacks of dumping a stat might seem more significant to me than they do to you. Anyhow, I don't agree that refusing to dump a stat will relegate a PC to "sidekick" status. Buying a 16 up to 18 costs 7 points. You're probably only getting an extra +1 on your primary ability score by dumping two stats and maybe +1 to another score or two if you dump 3. You could easily end up with a similar gap between PCs just because one finds a better magic weapon. Meanwhile the dumper might end up struggling with skills and misses out on options like Terrifying Howl, Improved Trip, Eldritch Heritage, Evolved Familiar, etc (to name a few)
Have been using the 4d6 thing and am running RotRL
Even with 3 pcs the are very effective and tend to end up in situations where there is not a lot of challenge but where a good crit will one shot kill them
Am seriously considering doing a 15 point buy for next campaign
(Note also do traits and hero points so that is also contributing to the uber hero effect that is going on)
The ONLY way to irritate SAD characters is to roll stats. In every other scenario they are better than MAD... heck if you roll well they might even be better in rolling too.Just saying that if we dont have dumps a wizard can just buy int and con and be amazing because he doesnt need other stats. In fact most full casters just need the casting stat and con to be fine.
Meanwhile melee man needs str,con, dex, wis to function.
Higher point buys somewhat balances the classes because of diminishing returns on buying high stats.
Let me say that I disagree with this premise. Rolling doesn't, or at least shouldn't, impact class balance. While it can, there is a pretty easy way around it: Don't come to the table with a predetermined character/class before you roll your stats. Rolling stats works best when you roll your ability scores and then pick a character's class/concept to fit those statistics. Roll a bunch of good stuff? Maybe it's finally time to play one of those MAD classes. Roll only a few good stats? There's always wizard, Druid, Witch, etc.
It's why I don't recommend rolling stats with newer players. More experienced players can normally better roll with the punches, and have more character concepts they can use, so they're less likely to be screwed over my ugly ability score rolls. Rolling stats' problem is that Player A and B will have better stats than Player C and D.
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I find that using a 15 point buy helps me to balance villains against the heroes.
If the PCs are too powerful, the villains get a bit limited, and I'm forced to stick to more powerful builds and tactics to keep them threatening, which is restricting of a lot of fun things I like to try.
15 point buy on the PCs lets me play the villains with weaker builds, flawed tactics, and as all-around not-completely-optimized NPCs, and still provide a threat to the PCs in doing so.
...I find that 15 point buy also tends to encourage player creativity, at least most of the time. It discourages min-maxing simply by making the max so hard to get to, and while some players still do try to maximize one or two scores by dumping everything else, I find that most try to avoid being so heavily dumped in so many areas, and instead adjust themselves into builds that are more balanced and less superpowered, which again, I like because it makes it easier to run threatening villains without being shoehorned into optimization.