Does anyone do 15 point buy?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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If you don't like dump stats you say... don't create dump stat characters. Problem solved =)

A character at a 15 point build is not a gimp cripple if they don't dump their stat. They will just be 5% less efficient at killing something than if they dump statted.


auticus wrote:

If you don't like dump stats you say... don't create dump stat characters. Problem solved =)

A character at a 15 point build is not a gimp cripple if they don't dump their stat. They will just be 5% less efficient at killing something than if they dump statted.

Monk (Human)

16 14 14 9 14 7
16 14 12 10 13 10

Its not 5%, dude ;).

Its 5% more damage due to bad AC combined with a 5% worse Will and Fort save combined with 13% less HPs ;)

So:
-1 AC
-1 Fort Save
-1 Will Save
-1 HP/lvl
-1 Ki Pool
+1 Skillpoint/lvl

Thats pretty serious business between dumping and not dumping... AC -1 and -1 HP/lvl alone make them drop >18.6% earlier in direct combat.


Monk (Human)
15 Point Buy (Dumping): 16 14 14 9 14 7
15 Point Buy (No Dump): 14 14 13 10 14 10

So:
-1 HP/lvl
-1 Hit
-1 Damage
+1 skill point/lvl (Cancels with hit points due to favored class)
+2 on all social rolls (basically)

So, -1 to hit and damage for not dumping, and you take a -2 penalty on all social rolls when you dump. Sounds like a standard trade-off.


The_Big_Dog wrote:

Monk (Human)

15 Point Buy (Dumping): 16 14 14 9 14 7
15 Point Buy (No Dump): 14 14 13 10 14 10

So:
-1 HP/lvl
-1 Hit
-1 Damage
+1 skill point/lvl (Cancels with hit points due to favored class)
+2 on all social rolls (basically)

So, -1 to hit and damage for not dumping, and you take a -2 penalty on all social rolls when you dump. Sounds like a standard trade-off.

You forgot the Fortitude save... tststs

-2 on all social rolls for a monk?
Oh right... his Perform (Chant) will not be as impressive... definitive trade off :P

You will need: Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth. So even with -1 int modifier you still have 1 skillpoint free per level.

So I would still count it as -1 HP/lvl you will have less than the 14 Con Monk. (not to mention that you forgot the fort save)
14 Con Monk will get 7.5 HPs/lvl. 13 Con Monk gets 6.5HPs/lvl

Dealing roughly 19% less damage (based on lvl 1) and having 13% less HPs... that really gimps you beyond the propagated 5% ;)

Silver Crusade

If my DM gave me a 20 point buy and told me no Dump Stats. I have no problem with it. I have no problem with 15 point buy and using dump stats to make the character better at there focus. Every group is different and will use what they want.

The truth is 15 point buy characters are not gimp's. Unless the people making them have no clue. And then it dose not matter if you give them 20 or even 25 points there characters as they level up will not get better but worse. Now give that same 20 or 25 point buy to some one that knows how to make characters and you end up with. Bar ninja (Bard:Role Played as a historical Ninja) And they can take over the under world of the city just a few levels sooner. Well you do need level 7 so you can cast Aura of the Unremarkable. Over all this is the case with almost all my characters I know how to work the game system as a hole, and can make most characters capable of stuff they should not be able to do. This is much harder to do with a 15 point buy. With a 20 point buy is not to hard. With a 25 point buy it's what kind of stupid powerful character do I want to make.

After playing using 25, 20, and now 15 point buy. I like the 15 point buy much better the the others. As far as mad vs. sad characters cry me a river. MAD characters get a verity of powerful ability's on the down side they require more good stats to use them all. Thus they are more flexible. SAD character get very focused ability's on the plus side they only need a few stats. Thus are more focused. The MAD will not do as much damage as a SAD melee character but have more going for them then just damage. So git over your self in complaining about how it hurts MAD and not SAD. The truth is they are not equal in ability's and where never meant to be. They where designed with different play styles in mind. If for some reason you can not tactical control your character it's not a class problem. I have made many poorly made characters over the years. I have made more well made characters by learning from my mistakes. 90% of all character deaths are players being tactically challenged. And at times I'm one of the tactically challenged but learn from where I went wrong.


Its a trade off, thats how it works. You are losing 1 point on a fort save and 1 less to hit and damage (useful at level one, negligible at higher levels) and gaining +2 to all social rolls (negligible at higher levels, useful at level 1). So yes, its a fine trade off.

Thanks for the catch about the fort save, but it could easily be negated at level 4 with a gain on the attribute point. I should point out that Monks have intimidate as a class skill as well, which is also based on charisma.

Basically, you are taking the argument of "combat is king" and I am taking the argument of "well-rounded character is king". Trade offs are still trade offs.


It all depends on how important social interaction and non-combat related skills are in your game.

I know GMs who's adventures reward as much xp in social/skill encounters as in combat encounters. And those DMs can easily make it so that a dump-statted character becomes a real liability for the group in these encounters.

On topic: I almost always do point buy and often 15 points. In those cases, I never take more than one stat with a negative modifier and then only -1.


Human (modified) Ranger: (15 PB)

Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12

.

2) 20 - 30 casting stat lvl 20 casters doesn't sound low fantasy to me.

.

3) Another Role-Play vs Roll-Play debate.

.

4) if you don't like the rule, make your own RPG.

.

1d20 + 1 ⇒ (7) + 1 = 8


The_Big_Dog wrote:

Its a trade off, thats how it works. You are losing 1 point on a fort save and 1 less to hit and damage (useful at level one, negligible at higher levels) and gaining +2 to all social rolls (negligible at higher levels, useful at level 1). So yes, its a fine trade off.

Thanks for the catch about the fort save, but it could easily be negated at level 4 with a gain on the attribute point. I should point out that Monks have intimidate as a class skill as well, which is also based on charisma.

Basically, you are taking the argument of "combat is king" and I am taking the argument of "well-rounded character is king". Trade offs are still trade offs.

The +1 Damage, yes. The +1 to hit will never be negligble.

Use a Damage sheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Agi1_sfMtIkEdGtKMFl6Sm94YUFDaE 5PRy1Pb2ZQTkE

(modified by me, save a copy and edit)

This monk at lvl 15 had 14 starting Str, +3 due to attribute ups makes 17, +6 belt makes 23 (+6 modifier)
With Ki and Flurry this is 48.43 DMG per round against AC 30.

Now lets say the monk had 16 starting str and thus ends up with +7 at the end
Same things, 58.02 DMG per round.

We have a damage difference of 9.5 per round, which is 16% of the damage dealt, due to the 1 less to hit.
(this result may vary depending on the amount of buffs and thingies on you)

So you would trade a lvl 1 bonus for a big chunk of damage at every level and less HPs...


Alienfreak wrote:
The equalizer wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Um, 15 points isn't 'normal person' it's 'normal hero'.

Boromir, Farimir, the dwarves (except Thorin) in The Hobbit etc.

Now I can see Aragorn being 20 point, but then he's not as human as the others. Think of him as a 'true Azlantan' if you want to Golarion him.

I'll admit I'm torn with teaching the kids. Do I teach them 15 points so they learn an 8 doesn't 'suck' and a 14 is good? Or do I teach them 20 points, so they learn on par with PFS characters?

You sound like a veteran gamer. I've seen the game since 2nd ed. I would recommend teaching them from the 2nd ed perspective that an 18 stat is close to amazing, 14 is exceptionally good etc. It allows them to appreciate the 16s and 18s alot as opposed to 16s at level one being somewhat common.

So 25 is still max and you throw dinosaurs over continents with it?

No?

Then why compare it.

20 Str was GODLIKE in D&D 2nd. Now 20 Str is medicore. In 2nd an ancient Red Dragon had also... 20? (I think) Now he has 39!!!!!!!1111
So why do you try to keep people at 2nd edition stat levels when we aren't in 2nd anymore...

We both have different perspectives on what a high stat means. That is where the disagreement comes in. Furthermore, DnD is not the marvel universe where characters hurl ships hundreds of feet. Its all good. We can agree to disagree. My point originally was to allow his kids to appreciate each extra point of ability modifier for a stat above 10. So often nowadays does the game revolve around items that increase the stats. That in itself isn't a bad thing but I've seen so many players make that their obsession in-game to the point where they role-play their characters to have roughly as much character as a tree.

Dark Archive

Monk - 15 point dump (Dwarf)

Str: 16 Int: 7 Wis: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 15 Chr: 5

vs no-dump

Str: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Chr: 8

-2 social skills
-2 skill points

for
+1 hit
+1 damage / attack
+1 AC
+1 reflex save

So you lose a good amount of combat prowess for some skill points and more penalties to the social skills a monk wouldn't use in the first place.

The gap widens when you take a non-int based 2 skill point class and dump int. There you only get -1 skill point (compensatable with favored class bonus or human) for 4 build points. Arguably charisma is even easier to dump; as in mid and high levels it generically has no affect on gameplay. Strength for casters (especially armorless casters) is the easiest yet.

So rather than crediting people for dumping, I'm in the camp of just give them the points for a dump stat (20 point build) and disallow them. Stops things like wizards dumping both Str and Chrfor bonuses, for fighters Int and Chr


My apologies, I meant a 5% difference in modifier. I didn't account for the trade ups and downs.

I've yet to have a problem running my group through encounters and they are 10 and 15 point buys. It definitely makes things more of a challenge, which is what the point of it was, but they are far from being gimped.

They just can't carve through things as easy, it creates a more party-centric environment because the characters specialize at something but need someone else to cover their back in other areas, and makes you trade off one thing for another, as opposed to being good at both.

That's what I prefer so that's why we roll with it. I don't like playing or running characters that are good at everything, it kind of starts to lose the point of rolling dice when you get to that point where you almost auto-pass everything or come close to it.

I also don't care if they dump stats because they are actively choosing to gimp themselves in an area that can bite them later. My group is about 50/50. 50% have dump stats and the other 50% have no stat below 10.


Thalin wrote:

Monk - 15 point dump (Dwarf)

Str: 16 Int: 7 Wis: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 15 Chr: 5

vs no-dump

Str: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Chr: 8

-2 social skills
-2 skill points

for
+1 hit
+1 damage / attack
+1 AC
+1 reflex save

So you lose a good amount of combat prowess for some skill points and more penalties to the social skills a monk wouldn't use in the first place.

The gap widens when you take a non-int based 2 skill point class and dump int. There you only get -1 skill point (compensatable with favored class bonus or human) for 4 build points. Arguably charisma is even easier to dump; as in mid and high levels it generically has no affect on gameplay. Strength for casters (especially armorless casters) is the easiest yet.

So rather than crediting people for dumping, I'm in the camp of just give them the points for a dump stat (20 point build) and disallow them. Stops things like wizards dumping both Str and Chrfor bonuses, for fighters Int and Chr

This is perfectly my approach to the matter.

For me dump stats are for people who want their char to have a weakness (due to their character design) and not for getting higher Main Ability scores...


When it comes to the 15 point buy, I have done it several times, but do not care for it. We used it in Savage Tides and we had two TPK's and people were thinking, they just didn't have the stat modifiers they needed for some of the encounter's. I prefer for characters to have at least average stats after that fiasco.


The equalizer wrote:
Alienfreak wrote:
The equalizer wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Um, 15 points isn't 'normal person' it's 'normal hero'.

Boromir, Farimir, the dwarves (except Thorin) in The Hobbit etc.

Now I can see Aragorn being 20 point, but then he's not as human as the others. Think of him as a 'true Azlantan' if you want to Golarion him.

I'll admit I'm torn with teaching the kids. Do I teach them 15 points so they learn an 8 doesn't 'suck' and a 14 is good? Or do I teach them 20 points, so they learn on par with PFS characters?

You sound like a veteran gamer. I've seen the game since 2nd ed. I would recommend teaching them from the 2nd ed perspective that an 18 stat is close to amazing, 14 is exceptionally good etc. It allows them to appreciate the 16s and 18s alot as opposed to 16s at level one being somewhat common.

So 25 is still max and you throw dinosaurs over continents with it?

No?

Then why compare it.

20 Str was GODLIKE in D&D 2nd. Now 20 Str is medicore. In 2nd an ancient Red Dragon had also... 20? (I think) Now he has 39!!!!!!!1111
So why do you try to keep people at 2nd edition stat levels when we aren't in 2nd anymore...

We both have different perspectives on what a high stat means. That is where the disagreement comes in. Furthermore, DnD is not the marvel universe where characters hurl ships hundreds of feet. Its all good. We can agree to disagree. My point originally was to allow his kids to appreciate each extra point of ability modifier for a stat above 10. So often nowadays does the game revolve around items that increase the stats. That in itself isn't a bad thing but I've seen so many players make that their obsession in-game to the point where they role-play their characters to have roughly as much character as a tree.

Rather than adventures, rather than the npcs, rather than the dungeons, the most important thing becomes the stat boosting magic items. How to get them, buy them, craft them. The number obsession is a dark path, it does not further gaming, it is just a mix of maths, wrought and greed. No good will come of this!

It is really quite sad, the accounting chronicles. It has pushed me to quite low magic games.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
auticus wrote:

If you don't like dump stats you say... don't create dump stat characters. Problem solved =)

A character at a 15 point build is not a gimp cripple if they don't dump their stat. They will just be 5% less efficient at killing something than if they dump statted.

If you actually read my posting, I stated that 90% of the people do do that, but it isn't nessary. Still if my players are going to try everything they can to min/max their characters, and most of the time they feel they can only do that by dumping a stat....then just give them the extra points so they don't feel the need to do it.


Aisling Andromeda wrote:
When it comes to the 15 point buy, I have done it several times, but do not care for it. We used it in Savage Tides and we had two TPK's and people were thinking, they just didn't have the stat modifiers they needed for some of the encounter's. I prefer for characters to have at least average stats after that fiasco.

Mmm, in the stat modifiers the problem may be not.

Okay, so every dm should actually do some work, and check that the party can take the monsters, with what their abilities. Run some tests, think about it, if it is a spell party, can they break the SR, if it is a melee party, can they get through the DR. What are their items like? When they fight this and that, what will be their capacity. I have known some who actually do not want to do this, and then they mock the players when they die. WARNING: TERRIBLE DM PRACTICE DETECTED!

Moving on from that, there is the system and its materials to consider. I don't think the fault is with the 15 point bought players. See pathfinder made the classes stronger (and moved away from many of the prestige classes of 3.5 over time, where real strength and specification could be found in 3.5 games). Pathfinder also made the monsters stronger. Ability scores have jumped, as has DR and SR. So a somewhat intelligent monster of 3.5 will now be a genius or as wise as the party cleric. The advanced template is the worst offender, be careful of this! If the monster's saves are high enough, it can shut down spellcasters, especially if they roll poorly on the SR check. If the DR or damage is too high, they can eat players over time or quickly.

I am running a 3.5 mixed with some beta game at the moment. And our ability gen is 3d6. As the dm, I make modifications. DR, enemy abilities when using pathfinder sources, goes down. The players can progress and triumph, and I am not making it too easy.

Silver Crusade

Wow, I am impressed that this has gone on so long. I have never required or been required to do 15 point buy. The groups I play with like to feel a little powerful.

@auticus I am glad your rules work for you and your group. I am surprised you have had to defend house rules for so long. It is not like we are talking RAW.

I give bonus XP for one game for writing a background or a journal entry for the last game. Players who are involved just tend to level up faster.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
karkon wrote:

Wow, I am impressed that this has gone on so long. I have never required or been required to do 15 point buy. The groups I play with like to feel a little powerful.

@auticus I am glad your rules work for you and your group. I am surprised you have had to defend house rules for so long. It is not like we are talking RAW.

I give bonus XP for one game for writing a background or a journal entry for the last game. Players who are involved just tend to level up faster.

Dear Diary,

BROKE SOME BONES AND SMASHED SOME SKULLS!!!111

Love, BARBARIAN

/me writes down his earned bonus XP :D

Silver Crusade

Alienfreak wrote:
karkon wrote:

Wow, I am impressed that this has gone on so long. I have never required or been required to do 15 point buy. The groups I play with like to feel a little powerful.

@auticus I am glad your rules work for you and your group. I am surprised you have had to defend house rules for so long. It is not like we are talking RAW.

I give bonus XP for one game for writing a background or a journal entry for the last game. Players who are involved just tend to level up faster.

Dear Diary,

BROKE SOME BONES AND SMASHED SOME SKULLS!!!111

Love, BARBARIAN

/me writes down his earned bonus XP :D

Kinda funny because except for wizards you are illiterate in my game unless you took 1 point in linguistics. Take 100xp for making me laugh. If you write longer I can give you a 10% bonus on next game's experience. Here is a suggestion, write down your character's view of the other characters.


TClifford wrote:
auticus wrote:

If you don't like dump stats you say... don't create dump stat characters. Problem solved =)

A character at a 15 point build is not a gimp cripple if they don't dump their stat. They will just be 5% less efficient at killing something than if they dump statted.

If you actually read my posting, I stated that 90% of the people do do that, but it isn't nessary. Still if my players are going to try everything they can to min/max their characters, and most of the time they feel they can only do that by dumping a stat....then just give them the extra points so they don't feel the need to do it.

This may sound assholish but I wasn't addressing you in particular. There have been several people that have said that 15 point or less characters are gimp and weak and will just die.

I have those same players so I understand. They will min/max no matter what system you give them. That's just their nature.


For mine, they do a 500 word recap and gain +10% bonus to the next session's xp total.

It doesn't have to be a journal in their point of view, esp if their character doesn't write. Just an overall recap from their point of view.

Only two of the six players do it. But it adds a lot by being able to read the various view points regardless.


auticus wrote:
TClifford wrote:
auticus wrote:

If you don't like dump stats you say... don't create dump stat characters. Problem solved =)

A character at a 15 point build is not a gimp cripple if they don't dump their stat. They will just be 5% less efficient at killing something than if they dump statted.

If you actually read my posting, I stated that 90% of the people do do that, but it isn't nessary. Still if my players are going to try everything they can to min/max their characters, and most of the time they feel they can only do that by dumping a stat....then just give them the extra points so they don't feel the need to do it.

This may sound assholish but I wasn't addressing you in particular. There have been several people that have said that 15 point or less characters are gimp and weak and will just die.

I have those same players so I understand. They will min/max no matter what system you give them. That's just their nature.

You have clearly not played Savage Tides or Kingmaker with 4 people, medium advancement and 15PB. (4 players, 20PB for ST accordingly)

Then take a Monk, Rogue, TWF Ranger and an Oracle.


We are playing Kingmaker right now on 10/15 point buy. Granted there are six of them, but I bump up the encounters to account for that by adding to the encounter itself extra monsters to account for the two extra PCs.

So far nothing unusual or untold has happened. And I roll the dice in the open and don't use a screen or fudge. =)

There's a cleric (15 point), rogue (15 point), fighter (15 point), barbarian (10 point), druid (10 point), and paladin (10 point)


auticus wrote:

We are playing Kingmaker right now on 10/15 point buy. Granted there are six of them, but I bump up the encounters to account for that by adding to the encounter itself extra monsters to account for the two extra PCs.

So far nothing unusual or untold has happened. And I roll the dice in the open and don't use a screen or fudge. =)

There's a cleric (15 point), rogue (15 point), fighter (15 point), barbarian (10 point), druid (10 point), and paladin (10 point)

So you are going to buff the Tendriculos with the advanced template and one more tentacle attack?

Tell me what happend once you did that xD


ok =)

Player deaths are also something we don't avoid. Player deaths are going to happen. That's part of the game for us.

I also have played at tables where player deaths were actively discouraged and hugely frowned upon. But for our campaign, they can happen and if they happen we roll with it.


auticus wrote:

ok =)

Player deaths are also something we don't avoid. Player deaths are going to happen. That's part of the game for us.

I also have played at tables where player deaths were actively discouraged and hugely frowned upon. But for our campaign, they can happen and if they happen we roll with it.

The only real danger is to wipe the whole party :/

We don't care about player deaths, too. But some monsters Paizo throws at parties really have the ability to party wipe.
Except the last one in the line just runs away... that will work often ;)

I usually give players 20pb and have 5 of them but all enemies are advanced (simple: +1 HP/HD +1 to hit, +1 dmg, +1 saves, +1 DC etc pp) and the major battles (book endbosses) are reworked to fit the party...


I haven't gotten to that point yet, but before each session I look at the things upcoming and calculate any issues that may arise. If the creature is super nasty and going to wipe the party, I will adjust it so that it is still challenging but not over the top nintendo-hard challenging.

That's also why I prefer writing my own adventures. I know what the challenge should be and I don't have to worry about gotcha monsters that are too powerful wiping the party unless I actively want that kind of monster appearing (in which case I will drop clues beforehand)

Silver Crusade

A DM can keep a game from being deadly through less than optimal tactics for enemies. 15 point buy is still playable and as auticus shows with more players lower point buys are still viable.

Kingmaker does make it easier. From what I have read it makes it easier for PCs to nova and 15 minute days. But that gets to my point above.


auticus wrote:

I haven't gotten to that point yet, but before each session I look at the things upcoming and calculate any issues that may arise. If the creature is super nasty and going to wipe the party, I will adjust it so that it is still challenging but not over the top nintendo-hard challenging.

That's also why I prefer writing my own adventures. I know what the challenge should be and I don't have to worry about gotcha monsters that are too powerful wiping the party unless I actively want that kind of monster appearing (in which case I will drop clues beforehand)

If you make encounters easier if they are like REALLY tough then you can of course even finish the adventures with 3PB characters :D. But vanilla the APs are only managable with 15PB and 4 Chars if you really crank the hell out of them and use SADs.

And own adventures take so much time to plan :/

Silver Crusade

What are SADs?

Also, 3 PB! I'm in. When do I start playing with my 15 INT wizard?


SAd= Single ability Dependent.


I infinitely love writing my own much more than modules.

And I write them with 15 pb characters in mind. With DM notes. So if I want it to be really hard, I make note that it was designed to be really hard.

I'm working on software now to let you run modules solo and will put some of my stuff out on the intrawebz when finished.


karkon wrote:

What are SADs?

Also, 3 PB! I'm in. When do I start playing with my 15 INT wizard?

With all due respect Karkon. You aren't going to be able to convince certain people. Their perspective of ability scores differs very strongly from ours. Only if they start with an 18 stat and can beef it to 24 by level 8 will they feel comfortable for the moment. Just leave it as it is.

Dark Archive

3 point buy and the pet classes (especially synthesist) will rule the world :).


Just throwing it in, with 3d6 the strengths and flaws of characters really shine. As a dm you can reward their focus with more buffs, if you feel they need to be higher.

Players roll the 3d6 for all till they are happy. Then you start. Aaaaaaaah, feels good man.


I like 3D6 as well. The only thing I don't like about it is some people will be on extreme ends of the spectrum than others... though I think in the future I may allow either a point buy OR 3D6 method.


Shudder....I recall old iron man dice rolling from back in the day. No thanks.


3.5 loyalist and the equalizer do have some good points coming in. I've too seen how people become obsessed with just stats and it's quite bothersome. My dm's next game is actually going to have it's amount of combats cut in half just so people have more time for social encounters. Personally I don't like how point buy makes stats on characters feel static but at the same time I hate it more when two characters have extremely different stats. I've seen characters with nothing higher then a 13 and I've seen characters with two 18's and a 16. It's troublesome when this happens to players because it puts them on different playing fields right off the bat.


I'd just like to add, I especially like characters that, say in a 4d6 remove 1 system, who end up having massive ability scores. The max available. So say 22-24 at some lowish level. They have it, as a warlock or a sorcerer in charisma, and then play a character who doesn't talk to the npcs, doesn't act suave, doesn't seduce/trick/diplome ANYONE.

They amuse me greatly. Carry on.


Yes black lantern, truly it is a black day.

With 3d6, you can get some difference, but you can also use a promotion based on usage system, whereby the low stat guy's abilities actually go up quicker than the average 15 stat character. I've started using ability increases as rewards. Hike across a desert +1 con. Fight really hard for a number of battles +1 strength. When it gets quite high, the increases come a lot more slower. So I do 3d6 with increases based on actions and application.


Just for amusement

1:

3d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 2) = 10
3d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 3) = 10
3d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 1) = 3
3d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 5) = 14
3d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 1) = 10
3d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 2) = 12

2:

3d6 ⇒ (3, 4, 5) = 12
3d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 4) = 12
3d6 ⇒ (1, 2, 3) = 6
3d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 2) = 12
3d6 ⇒ (4, 6, 1) = 11
3d6 ⇒ (4, 4, 3) = 11

3:

3d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 1) = 3
3d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 4) = 9
3d6 ⇒ (5, 2, 1) = 8
3d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 2) = 9
3d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 6) = 12
3d6 ⇒ (4, 6, 4) = 14

4:

3d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 2) = 9
3d6 ⇒ (1, 6, 1) = 8
3d6 ⇒ (2, 1, 5) = 8
3d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 1) = 10
3d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 6) = 11
3d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 1) = 5

That is
1: 7 point buy ok prob a -9 point buy
2: 8 point. 2 point really
3: Just gods....thats like -13
4: also looks about like a -12

Yep I do not miss 3d6.

Dark Archive

Problem with that is low points hurt most at lower levels; so you're basically equalizing at the time it matters the least. Being the low-level with the low stats hurts; trust me, the last time I rolled I ran into this problem.


Thank you black lantern, feels good to have a gamer who believes its more than just stat blocks. The most recent example I can highlight is my current level 10 monk. Has two 18 stats and nothing else is above 10. Actually he started with two stats below 10. A believable hero-to-be. Low strength, finesse monk. Okay to hit bonus, not great damage. Gave him fiery fist, stunning fist and ki blast. Everything else in dodge and gave him skill focus diplomacy. Also gave him oratory. In combat, he can hold up certain foes while the rest of the party focuses on what their fighting. Pretty far from a damage dealing tank. Even currently, his highest stats haven't been beefed. Out of combat, he can interact with people or attempt to sway them to pursue a path of morality. I try to role-play that aspect as much as possible. Somewhat of an actual possible hero to become if he gets there. Charisma is a flat 10. Not 20 or above. I read in a thread discussing if paladins should accept surrender, that some people were saying sometimes its necessary for heroes to kill innocents. I found it very laughable. The "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." A pragnmatic but far from good-aligned perspective. The reasons which came out were pointing to it being convenient and safer for the PCs to do so. Last time I checked, true heroes risk life and limb to protect an elderly individual who is going to croak it in 24 hours. Might not be relevant but thought i'd put it out there. Truly laughable attempts at justifying heroism.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
3.5 Loyalist wrote:

I'd just like to add, I especially like characters that, say in a 4d6 remove 1 system, who end up having massive ability scores. The max available. So say 22-24 at some lowish level. They have it, as a warlock or a sorcerer in charisma, and then play a character who doesn't talk to the npcs, doesn't act suave, doesn't seduce/trick/diplome ANYONE.

They amuse me greatly. Carry on.

If somebody would run a game like that with me, the moment we would run into an Int 18+ NPC I would just gleefully announce that the GM is not intelligent enough to run the NPC properly. Unless he has a MENSA membership or sth like that.

Yeah, that would be low, but you know me.


Risking life and limb is not a safe gamble. You can't "win" if you die. But then again if I had to put an alignment on our society as a whole I'd nail it with an NE. But that's a discussion for another time.


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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Shudder....I recall old iron man dice rolling from back in the day. No thanks.

No sane person will ever miss the "3d6, you may roll 3 times and then take which block you want" madness.

Being a 14 13 10 8 6 5 right next to a 18 17 16 16 14 8 guy was no fun at all...

This stat rolling is so 1990...


auticus wrote:
Risking life and limb is not a safe gamble. You can't "win" if you die. But then again if I had to put an alignment on our society as a whole I'd nail it with an NE. But that's a discussion for another time.

Yep. Neither is choosing to be heroes a safe path.


auticus wrote:
Risking life and limb is not a safe gamble. You can't "win" if you die. But then again if I had to put an alignment on our society as a whole I'd nail it with an NE. But that's a discussion for another time.

"Where's your sense of Drama?"


Alienfreak wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Shudder....I recall old iron man dice rolling from back in the day. No thanks.

No sane person will ever miss the "3d6, you may roll 3 times and then take which block you want" madness.

Being a 14 13 10 8 6 5 right next to a 18 17 16 16 14 8 guy was no fun at all...

This stat rolling is so 1990...

I have said this a few times but one player having "18,18,18,17,17,16" and the other having a 12 point buy or so and everyone else rolling about 20 points done me with rolling for good.

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