Discuss.
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We did it for Carrion Crown. Alot of PC died, of the starting 6 onl;y 2 of the originals made it to the end. Its tough for the MAD character... Paly's / Monk's and so on... so most people ended up bring back a 2 or 1 stat build PC.
It makes it tough. A good idea if you have a large group (6-8)... So they don;t run over an adventure meant for 4 players.
I don't usually want to use 15 point buy due to MAD characters such as Paladins and Monks. 20 point or higher is better if only because it makes for more or less balanced classes whether or not they are MAD. However, I've only used point buy with one group. In the other two, we've simply rolled 4d6 and removed the lowest number for each stat.
After some experience of always having to adjust the opposition upwards to be a challenge at all, my new campaigns I started this year are all using 15 points only, and I'm content with the development. I'll probably keep it as a rule for the future.
I've been running modules solo against myself with 15 point buy 1st level characters. Its incredibly fun and is helping me learn. Actually I use the "elite array" which is a set 15,14,13,12,10,8 before mods. Its probably balancing the fact that I coordinate my party tactics in a way that a real group never would.
I just did the final fight in Crypt of Everflame with all lvl 1s...wiz true strike dirty tricked (blinded) Asar so the 2h fighter could pick up his disarmed great club and get the final blow. Party did not have full resources going into it.
I haven't tried paladins and monks yet, but can somewhat understand the limitation perceived. Statting a cleric is...disappointing/humorous using elite array to say the least. Well, maybe I just havent figured out a good way to do it yet.
Another theory I have is that using elite array or 15pt buy doesn't matter as much at 1st level as it does at say, 10th. That's because dice rolls are way more unpredictable at 1st so a -3 or +3 one way or the other is really pretty insignificant. Still matters for feat selection though I suppose.
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As a GM, I only allow PGs built on the 15 point buy system. Never 20. Don't wanna super-heroes. I ask for the 15 point buy system as a player too (even if I always complain later). It's really enough. But I'm waiting for an uprising of my friends.
Don't wanna super-heroes.
That, at least at first. I'm doing 15 for my upcoming ZEITGEIST campaign because I didn't think anime-style Gary Sues fit with the gritty industrial age setting. I wanted to encourage team thinking, and tightly focused builds. Alas, one of the players insists on trying a gunslinger/magus anyway.
Cheers for party uprisings!! :D
Anyway, I've never seen 20 point buy causing the players turning into superheroes, unless there is some min-maxing involved.
My intro post was a little lacking, so I'll put my two cents in late.
I'm really relieved to see that I'm not the only one into the 15 point buy. I like it because it forces you to actually THINK when you design a character. You'll almost always have a dump stat and it feels totally reasonable to me in terms of power level.
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Will never run or play at 15 pts. I like not being a stereotype which 15 pts usually leaves you at.
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Just because you use 20 point buy instead of 15 point doesn't mean you don't have to think. DeathMetal, I think you are having a little streak of elitism in a place where it really shouldn't be. I'm just as fine with 15, 20 and 25 point buy as I am with random rolling, but I will NEVER be okay with people who dismiss others for having different tastes.
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Talonhawke, you need to try it sometime so you can discover that what you said is not the case.
You should see the 15 point buy detective bard I'm actually playing...
Talonhawke, you need to try it sometime so you can discover that what you said is not the case.
"I am right and you are wrong" is the wrong attitude on the internet. If he doesn't wanna try out 15 point buy, then you should just shut up and leave him alone instead of shoving something in his face and/or taunting him. He doesn't NEED to try it unless he wants to.
I wouldn't have come off this rude if you hadn't come off rude towards him (seriously, it's not that interesting to play with 15 point buy), so you have only yourself to blame. And as for the topic itself, I already said I am fine with whatever the players and/or DM is fine with. Then again, last time I played PF we did have 15 point buy, and my Wizard had trouble due to encumberance (Str was a dump stat, as it usually is with casters) so I had to buy a horse that would carry all the stuff for me since I couldn't (cheers for the Rich Parents trait and being nobility). It was neat for the RP aspect, but still got annoying in the long run.
Yes, we did in RotR. After the group struggled with the first two books (lots of PC deaths), I upped it to 20.
Now (end of book 4) I am kind of regretting that.
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My group considers 20 point buy the standard for a "if you die it's your own damn fault" game. 15 point buy is fine, but we see a few too many deaths with that.
20 point buy also means that we can put a decent bit in non-primary stats without worrying about gimping ourselves. My character, for example, has a 10/18/14/14/14/8 spread (after a level-up point was applied to dexterity). Our cleric has something like a 10/13/10/12/16/16.
In the future I probably would stick to PB 20, but disallow setting a stat to 7.
In my current game we went with standard rolls (4d6, drop lowest) and most players came out of it with above-average stats around the equivalent of an 18-20 point buy. There were plenty of PC deaths so I wouldn't use the number of PC deaths as an indicator of balance.
For me, point-buy is the fallback method if your 4d6 rolls don't allow you to pull off the concept you had in mind. Thus we practically have to use 15 point-buy because a 20 point-buy would more often be better than a roll than not and tempt players to go with that instead.
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Icyshadow, the word "stereotype" is so contrary to my experience with 15pt. At the very least, his definition of "stereotype" must be much broader than mine. But its true, 15pt is not that interesting. However his statement really caught my attention because it is so strikingly odd to me. Perhaps its less of a right vs wrong thing like you were trying to say and more of a perception of anomaly thing. Is that still the wrong attitude? ;)
You should see the 15 point buy detective bard I'm actually playing...Can you give a link? I am interested in playing a detective bard and would love to see how others do it.
You would see how don't build a bard. Since my party is composed by five PGs, I decided to make an "amoeba" pg. Face and utility spells. It's fun. In a fight my horse did more than me. Anyway, if you're interested in that, I can say something more, but I haven't a link, sorry.
I mean dumb fighters. Weak Wizards. uncouth Barbarians.
If you aren't roaring at him in anger to try it, then I don't see a reason to consider you wrong.
I think the stereotyping he spoke of related to dump stats always being the same for certain classes (See Wizard and Barbarian in 15 point buy in regards to regular builds) and probably due to the MAD classes (Paladin and Monk) usually being skipped completely when it comes to such games.
I mean dumb fighters. Weak Wizards. uncouth Barbarians.
Oh, lookie. I was right. Though I find it kinda silly in retrospect when some good feats for Fighters require high Intelligence or Dexterity, the former being something they can't really afford with 15 point buy without becoming crippled in some way.
I mean dumb fighters. Weak Wizards. uncouth Barbarians.
That's what I thought you meant. That's not my experience with it. But I also go out of my way to make interesting/fun characters that I personally enjoy, so maybe that's the difference here. Sitting on some prereq feat for 5 levels so I can be optimized later is the opposite of a game to me. But yeah, obviously if you care about stats 15 pt is not for you.
But let me go try some MAD characters, too. :)
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I used 25-point buy for my 6 players in our just-finished Kingmaker campaign. That was one of many contributing factors that led to overpowered PCs and them largely trampling over everything in their paths.
For Jade Regent I'm dropping it to 15-points. For a 6-player game, I think that's enough.
I used 25-point buy for my 6 players in our just-finished Kingmaker campaign. That was one of many contributing factors that led to overpowered PCs and them largely trampling over everything in their paths.
Was that intentional? Because you kind of should have seen that coming... The published APs are based on 4 players and 15 point-buy.
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I mean dumb fighters. Weak Wizards. uncouth Barbarians.
If your players build these kind of characters, they will build the same kind with 20 or 25 points. They will then build really strong dumb fighters, really clever weak wizards and really tough uncouth barbarians.
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I do know my players and this is not really the case. My players like not having a weakness but also do like to have at least their bases not be lacking. I do know my players thank you. when I have run 15pts i saw sevens on 3 of four characters when i run 25 i see nothing under a ten.
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Next campaign I am playing is 15 point; I prefer 20 point, no stat dumping. 15 point is pretty easy if you accept stat dump.
Dwarf Monk (best saves)
Str 16
Int 7
Wis 16
Dex 14
Con 15
Chr 5
Human Oath of Vengence Pally (feat starved, 2 skill points help him serve as party face)
Str 16
Int 7
Wis 7
Dex 12
Con 12
Chr 18
Both highly durvivable and good; if dumb.
I don't know if it's just me, but I would NEVER let anyone play a Paladin with Intelligence lower than 10. I just can't see it ever happening, more due to story-line reasons and how I can only see Fighters and Barbarians ever being that stupid...
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We tried 15-point buy. It lasted 3 sessions.
Then we choose to go 20-point buy with restriction on stat-dumping, and there is no way we're going back on this decision some day.
20-point allows for heroic characters without playing a stereotype if you want to also be efficient. You're a bit better on average at your own schtick than the common people, but these people also tend to be more versatile.
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Religious zealots? Stupid? How could that happen? :).
They actually make more sense than the fighter being dumb; Barbarians I guess are the defacto flavored "stupid uncouth" character, but from life perspective being unintelligent but charismatic actually makes sense for a fanatical religious person.
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I don't know if it's just me, but I would NEVER let anyone play a Paladin with Intelligence lower than 10. I just can't see it ever happening, more due to story-line reasons and how I can only see Fighters and Barbarians ever being that stupid...
Actually, i'm not really inclined to accept the existance of paladin with an int greater than 7, 'cause they will not be paladin in that case. But probably i'm a little biased against paladin.... just a little...
Wow lol this makes me laugh a little. We use the 10 point buy and if the player writes a 1000 word bio they get to use the 15 point buy.
Of course the adventures are designed with this in mind. 20 point buy seems a little too super heroey for my tastes. The end result of 10 and 15 point buys is that player characters aren't carving through encounters like a hot knife through butter and the challenge factor is there without having to artifically inflate encounters to make them stronger to instil any semblence of a challenge.
I did 4D6 drop the lowest for years and years and years, but everyone always consistently would roll and roll and roll and roll until their characters had 15s or higher in everything, so I adopted the point buy probably around 2005 or so.
...I see a lot of "Paladin is Lawful Stupid" here, and it makes me sad. Of course, I'd love to prove you wrong by showcasing some Paladins who don't behave that way, but you would all accuse me of "doing it wrong" when it comes to playing a Paladin.
Anyway, carrying on to aboid messy discussions...I might try 15 point buy next time I'm DM, just for the hell of it.
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Wow lol this makes me laugh a little. We use the 10 point buy and if the player writes a 1000 word bio they get to use the 15 point buy.
Wow. Ehm.
Wow.
Really?
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I have not played Pathfinder yet, but when I ran D&D 3.X, I always gave actually elite arrays, rather than point buy or rolling:
18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10
or sometimes:
18, 17, 16, 14, 13, 12
Not taking a penalty to some inconsequential rolls doesn't actually do anything to hurt balance, it just makes the players actually feel like awesome heroes who are better than normal people in every way, which is what I want.
But then, I also always disallowed PC spellcasting classes and never used magic items (no, not even healing potions), so they needed it. I made a spell-less Bard as well (I called it a Skald, which basically a Fighter with Bardic Music instead of all those feats), a spell-less Druid (but only the PHBII version of Wild Shape), and enforced the spell-less Ranger and Paladin variants.
I actually saw a wide cross-section of classes, including the "MAD" ones like Paladins, Monks, and Swordsages.
Yeah. Really. I prefer low-heroic games. I'm not big on super-hero style games. One of the reasons I didn't like 4e.
I also like games where there is a history involved and what better way to encourage bios and journals when they are rewarded in-game for it.
"But then, I also always disallowed PC spellcasting classes and never used magic items (no, not even healing potions), so they needed it. I made a spell-less Bard as well (I called it a Skald, which basically a Fighter with Bardic Music instead of all those feats), a spell-less Druid (but only the PHBII version of Wild Shape), and enforced the spell-less Ranger and Paladin variants." - Quote from mplindustries
D&D/Pathfinder without spells is quite hard to pull off, but I applaud you if the players had fun with it.
@auticus
Do you force your players to use NPC classes? :D
In all seriousness, the players I've played with have never been too superhero-like regardless of whether we've used point buy or dice rolling (the thing that made them overpowered was me being careless with magic item distribution). So, I am not really sure of what you are getting at.
lol no they are not NPC classes =P That would be pretty brutal.
Most of them write the bio and get the 15 point buy anyway. Only a couple do not and they just dump stat like they would anyway.
It does make it more gritty yes. I can't help that I grew up on Warhammer Roleplaying and Rolemaster lol.
Considering if they do the bio they get to be 15 point anyway it's usually a non-issue.
20 point builds push what I think of as super-hero builds. Their stats are all fairly high so there really isn't a negative aspect to them.
I have had guys that can get +8 or so to hit at first level, and typical AC hovers around 14 or so there, so they are hitting a lot on 6s and doing 8-12 points a swing, so in effect one shotting everything or coming close at 1st level.
I like to keep the to-hit areas around 40-60% against even EL creatures. Otherwise it quickly escalates to where I have to artifically boost encounters to make things kind of a challenge.
I know at 1-3 level that it only takes one hit to KO a PC, but in the later levels it can become problematic for balance, because I do not want encounters one-shot on a regular basis.
But again most of the guys at the table are using 15 point builds because they do the bio up so it's a non-issue.
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I did something interesting in my ROTRL campaign. I gave them a 15 point buy to start out but once they were declared "the heroes of Sandpoint" the characters started to feel much more confident and inspired so I let them spend the other 5 points to take them to a 20 point buy.
Yeah. Really. I prefer low-heroic games.
I did not mean that, but the fact that you penalize players who do not put a character bio with at least 1000 words on paper (do you actually count the words?).
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We're using 20-point, and never had anyone with a 20 in a beginning stat. The only exceptions were a half-ogre barbarian, who had something like 20/14/16/5/5/13 (and who also had the best character ever), and a fighter who had something like 18/22/16/7/7/7... useless to say that said player (our ex-GM for pretty good reasons, and notorious munchkin/cheater as soon as there is no one to check on his sheet) was asked to come back with a REAL character asap and stop taking people for idiots.
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I can understand that; you're a GM trying to create a fantastic world and spending a LOT of time putting it together. You want to know the players so they feel more connected. I always request bios; but sometimes players are lazy, and it makes me feel cheated after all of my hard work that they won't even write a basic background. So I think it's the perfect encouragement; really you can look at it as a 15-point buy world where if you're too lazy to even do a little background setup for your character you are penalized 5 points.
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I can understand that; you're a GM trying to create a fantastic world and spending a LOT of time putting it together. You want to know the players so they feel more connected. I always request bios; but sometimes players are lazy, and it makes me feel cheated after all of my hard work that they won't even write a basic background. So I think it's the perfect encouragement; really you can look at it as a 15-point buy world where if you're too lazy to even do a little background setup for your character you are penalized 5 points.
Sorry, reading stuff like this always makes me angry. Some players may have a time-consuming job and a family - they may have a hard time keeping that one evening free every other week.