I don't think its a bad thing for a character to develop away from their initial bio either. A character may, for example, say that they served in the monastic order of the white rose for the past three years, becoming a squire for a paladin, and they aspire to become one someday.
Then through the course of adventure they discover the Tablets of Xyrnna, and they get pulled into a career of divine influence and then they discover that they want to be more of a cleric.
I don't think that having the bio, in those instances, hinders that. Much like real life people, what I wanted to be when I grew up has changed so many times since I was young that if I were to show you a bio about me written when I was a level 1 gaming-nerd at 13 years old, it would be a very different piece to how I am now at 34 years old.
A bio isn't meant to be a future build. At least not to me. I have players that do builds from the beginning, but that's different from a bio. A bio just explains what the character has been up to up to the day of adventure and highlights any important people or events in their life which may or may not influence them.
Also 1000 words is not four pages. It's six to eight paragraphs. It's four pages if you use a large font and double space.
You're right of course, I was privileging my profession where the standard is fonts, spacing, and borders that come to 250 words per page. These days I suppose with the right software/hardware combination you could fit the KJV on a postcard, which is why wordcounts are more to the point.
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Bingo.Being a roll player isn't an insult... it's a type of player. Some people game to let off steam and kill stuff, they aren't as interested in the story, the plot, or even the 'why' of adventuring. And lets face it that isn't wrong bad fun. All that I do is develop tools to let the role players truly enjoy the story to it's fullest. You don't lose out on anything by not giving a detailed background if you aren't really interested in the story. You still have the encounters, the witty banter, and those moments that happen when you let a bunch of PCs loose in any situation. That's all fun too.
'Roll player' has been used as an insult in too many places to be used that way.
I like 15 point buys. It gives me heros a cut above the common man - it is possible to get an 18 in a single stat but your other stats will be pretty one dimensional or dumpish... however you can make some fine builds where 16s rule. These are good for E6 play.
10 is good for a low power games... and by that I mean when a goblin/orc is a foe to be cautious of and level 5 seems oh so far away. Common man made hero. It can be gritty.
20 is ok too, but it feels like some players take that stretch and use it to create some real mega characters like mages with 20 Int as a start stat.
25? Just not for me - feels too high powered.
That said I FEEL for the MAD characters and 15pt buys. I'd be in favour of a special +1 (or even +2) to a stat of their choice if it is under 14.
I use a 20 point buy but restrict statistics to nothing higher than 18 or lower than 8 after racial bonuses.
For me, the level of point buy has nothing to do with whether I like it to be more difficult or not. I prefer higher point buy because it allows me to make a character that's not so conventional, like a strong, hardy wizard or an intelligent sorcerer or a charismatic fighter. Lower point buys very strongly lock you into being good at fewer things, and those things tend to be your class focus.
By intelligent sorcerer, I meant a starting int of something like 16. Not an easy feat if you want to have a charisma score worth a damn as well.
We just finished up our first 15 pt buy game and I think overall it went well. I think that I'm going to be giving out some additional ability points (based on role-playing) but I honestly don't know that it's needed.
This is only true if the baseline is in fact lower. On the other hand if the DM is likening his game to hard-mode then chances are that while the PC baseline is infact lower the NPC baseline is the same which actually makes it relatively higher.
Exactly so. All measures of PC power are relative to the other PCs and to the NPCs in the game-- the relative power level of the PCs, whether they're common men or demigods, always limits your choice of character concepts. You can't play a normal person in a 30 point game any more than you can play a superhero at 15.
Always drove me nuts in D&D campaign settings that all of the important high-level NPCs had ability scores way higher than the standard generation methods allowed PCs to have.
I don't like giving the D20 any more power than it already has, so no, and I'll argue against it if it comes up in any game I'm involved in.
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People are finally getting on the same page. 20, 25, and even 30 point buys are fine, but involve the GM needing to tweak up that difficulty. 15 points let you run the APs and CRs with little modification, making it easier on most GMs. This reason more than any other is why I am a proponent of 15 point.
I'm seeing kind of the opposite in my 20pt games - it makes the characters the same in that all the fighters are 18/20 STR, all the rogues are 18/20 dex, all the wizards are 18/20 INT. It's hard to consider any of them extraordinary when they are all the same. A 15pt game might cut down on that and allow a player that wanted to be exceptional to actually be an exception.
On the other hand, I don't know how others are finding the APs easy at 20pt buy. I'm killing a fair number of characters at 20pts with plenty of player complaints of things being too hard.
That's a good point (above). I find that also to be pretty true. At high stat games, the players are often times making mirrors of their 15 point builds, just with their primary stat taken higher.
Of course that's not universal... but often times I have noticed the truth in that.
Killing 20 point build characters isn't neccessarily a sign that 20 point build characters aren't stronger, it depends on what is going on in the game for them to die.
I'm not saying that players are bad, because I know someone will laser in on this and assume that, but you could have a party of sub-par players with 50 point buys that are still dying regularly because they are doing silly things, or the dice just aren't being kind.
I'm seeing kind of the opposite in my 20pt games - it makes the characters the same in that all the fighters are 18/20 STR, all the rogues are 18/20 dex, all the wizards are 18/20 INT. It's hard to consider any of them extraordinary when they are all the same. A 15pt game might cut down on that and allow a player that wanted to be exceptional to actually be an exception.
On the other hand, I don't know how others are finding the APs easy at 20pt buy. I'm killing a fair number of characters at 20pts with plenty of player complaints of things being too hard.
The 15 pt. buy could also mean that all of the fighters are 16/18 STR, all the rogues are 16/18 DEX, all wizards are 16/18 INT... and are all the "same".
The 15 pt. buy could also mean that all of the fighters are 16/18 STR, all the rogues are 16/18 DEX, all wizards are 16/18 INT... and are all the "same".
Yes. Meaning that irregardless of what point buy you use, players will be players and still make carbon copies if so inclined.
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Generally my defaults (for a human) for 20 point are 18-14-14-12-12-7. For 15 it's 18-10-14-12-12-7. For 25 it's 20-14-14-12-10-7 . So higher points tend to help upper end stats; or from 15 to 20 usually bump down Int or Wis, depending on character. At 25 getting a 20 stat is brainless; all but the most MAD class should have them; even my monk would be 20 strength.
The 15 pt. buy could also mean that all of the fighters are 16/18 STR, all the rogues are 16/18 DEX, all wizards are 16/18 INT... and are all the "same".
Yeah, in my experience, people who want a certain stat high with one point buy will want a certain stat high with another point buy (although "high" may vary depending on the number of points).
Heck, the same is true if you use a rolling method; the only difference is that when you roll some people will be disappointed and some people will be pleasantly surprised.
I'm currently in a game where we roll 3d6 including ones for ability scores. Its the odd thing where each character has one or two high stats but every thing else isn't great. This actually allows characters exceptionally good in their areas to shine. Its only when each character has high stats in almost every ability score but one that makes characters "the same." The game I'm in is low magic and set in Isger. The good ability score of a character and their feats really shines through. Alot more emphasis on the "the coolness is all from the character" and alot less of the "time to shop or craft the +5 holy avenger." Doing heroic things and saving the region becomes the main emphasis.
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I've one question for the 'never play' crowd.
Really? Never? Not even a one shot or as an experiment?
Never. We usually play in a very favorable roll system. Characters are probably 50 or 60 point point buy equivalent with a couple of 18s. We like epic heroic characters.
The DMs need to beef up a lot of the encounters and adjust the CR system accordingly. But it suits my groups style and their imaginations. We don't like imagining little weinie 15 point buy characters.
I know for myself I don't enjoy it because I know I'm well above a 15 point character. I know with absolute certainty you don't have to give up wisdom, charism, and intelligence to have a good strength and dexterity. Many athletes are extremely strong, dextrous, and healthy as well as charismatic, intelligent, and wise. I prefer playing more of that kind of person given I'm closer to that than a limited 15 point buy character.
I can lift 250 lbs over my head. I'm physically strong. I play sports like basketball and football well. I don't go down in a fight like a creame puff. Yet I still have an IQ over 140, don't make completely stupid decisions nor am I oblivious, nor do I lack the ability to carry on a social conversation.
D&D seems to have built their standard stats around the idea that if a person has some extraordinary ability that means they must also have some extremely deficient ability. That isn't true in real life and isn't true in many of the fantasy books I read. I can only surmise that this ability standard was chosen solely for mechanical balance. Since we all know how to manipulate the mechanical balance to challenge high statted characters, we prefer to create characters that better simulate what a trained adventurer might be like on a heroic level.
Heck. Your standard special operations soldier would be built on more than 15 points. Probably be closer to 20 to 25 points or higher depending on their hobbies.
I've one question for the 'never play' crowd.
Really? Never? Not even a one shot or as an experiment?
I've already played a game where a straight d20 roll was the ultimate arbiter and I have to say: I didn't like it, I believe it should be about the power of the character, not random chance.
@Maddigan:Fictional characters also tend to have good will saves. Apparently no one told the game designers that it takes a ton of willpower to tell your instincts to sit down and shut up, which is what you need to be a fighter.
Dear lord I agree with Maddigan on something.......What in the name of Cayden's Ale Mug is going on?
I would never use 15 Points-Buy, why?
The characters should be heros, they are the Aragons, Conans, Raistlins etc. of their world.
If I want to play a "normal" person I don't need P&P RPGs.
My Party always use 4d6, dropp lowest and we reroll if the results are to low (GM decission).
Dear lord I agree with Maddigan on something.......What in the name of Cayden's Ale Mug is going on?
We agree all the time. You just don't remember when it happens.
Possible though its also possible that one of us is our own evil twin!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I know for myself I don't enjoy it because I know I'm well above a 15 point character. I know with absolute certainty you don't have to give up wisdom, charism, and intelligence to have a good strength and dexterity. Many athletes are extremely strong, dextrous, and healthy as well as charismatic, intelligent, and wise. I prefer playing more of that kind of person given I'm closer to that than a limited 15 point buy character.
I can lift 250 lbs over my head. I'm physically strong. I play sports like basketball and football well. I don't go down in a fight like a creame puff. Yet I still have an IQ over 140, don't make completely stupid decisions nor am I oblivious, nor do I lack the ability to carry on a social conversation.
See, I think some of this disagreement comes from differneces of opinion on what certain numbers for ability scores mean. The abilities you describe for yourself above, in my games, would come out to Str 17, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10. 10 isn't bad at things, it means the person is perfectly up to tasks requiring the stat. That comes out to 14 point buy if you assume the human +2 to Str, so there is even room to make that Dex a 13 or one of the other stats an 11.
I would bet that you disagree with my assignings of point values, but I say that's simply because we have different ideas of what the stats mean. PCs are heroic because they are allowed to even have an 18. To me, an 18 means you are among the most talented in the world and a 20 means you are among the most talented in all of history.
Point buy doesn't reflect the average person anyway because you can't even get stats below 7, and there are plenty of examples where normal people are that deficient.
tl;dr version: the meaning of stats is relative to the campaign itself, not absolute. In a game where the average person has 3 points to buy stats, 15 is pretty darn heroic.
I'm currently in a game where we roll 3d6 including ones for ability scores. Its the odd thing where each character has one or two high stats but every thing else isn't great. This actually allows characters exceptionally good in their areas to shine. Its only when each character has high stats in almost every ability score but one that makes characters "the same." The game I'm in is low magic and set in Isger. The good ability score of a character and their feats really shines through. Alot more emphasis on the "the coolness is all from the character" and alot less of the "time to shop or craft the +5 holy avenger." Doing heroic things and saving the region becomes the main emphasis.
I believe I understand what you are saying Equalizer, but I disagree that PCs with simliar or even the same ability scores will feel the same. When I play Pathfinder I generally don't even know what the other PCs ability scores are, unless they voluntarily tell me.
For PCs to really stand out as unique the player portraying them needs to add character to them through role play IMO. In short ability scores don't give the PCs personality, role playing does.
I'm currently in a game where we roll 3d6 including ones for ability scores. Its the odd thing where each character has one or two high stats but every thing else isn't great. This actually allows characters exceptionally good in their areas to shine. Its only when each character has high stats in almost every ability score but one that makes characters "the same." The game I'm in is low magic and set in Isger. The good ability score of a character and their feats really shines through. Alot more emphasis on the "the coolness is all from the character" and alot less of the "time to shop or craft the +5 holy avenger." Doing heroic things and saving the region becomes the main emphasis.I believe I understand what you are saying Equalizer, but I disagree that PCs with simliar or even the same ability scores will feel the same. When I play Pathfinder I generally don't even know what the other PCs ability scores are, unless they voluntarily tell me.
For PCs to really stand out as unique the player portraying them needs to add character to them through role play IMO. In short ability scores don't give the PCs personality, role playing does.
Every Kobold in the Bestiary that used a Class level has a 15 Pointbuy Elite Array.
I don't think its heroic being on the same level as a Kobold Rogue 1...
I'm currently in a game where we roll 3d6 including ones for ability scores. Its the odd thing where each character has one or two high stats but every thing else isn't great. This actually allows characters exceptionally good in their areas to shine. Its only when each character has high stats in almost every ability score but one that makes characters "the same." The game I'm in is low magic and set in Isger. The good ability score of a character and their feats really shines through. Alot more emphasis on the "the coolness is all from the character" and alot less of the "time to shop or craft the +5 holy avenger." Doing heroic things and saving the region becomes the main emphasis.I believe I understand what you are saying Equalizer, but I disagree that PCs with simliar or even the same ability scores will feel the same. When I play Pathfinder I generally don't even know what the other PCs ability scores are, unless they voluntarily tell me.
For PCs to really stand out as unique the player portraying them needs to add character to them through role play IMO. In short ability scores don't give the PCs personality, role playing does.
Every Kobold in the Bestiary that used a Class level has a 15 Pointbuy Elite Array.
I don't think its heroic being on the same level as a Kobold Rogue 1...
An interesting point AlienFreak, but I'm not sure why you have chosen to quote me. My post really didn't have anything to do with a 15 pt. buy, but more in how ability scores define a PCs uniqueness. I suppose it was a little off topic actually.
I'm currently in a game where we roll 3d6 including ones for ability scores. Its the odd thing where each character has one or two high stats but every thing else isn't great. This actually allows characters exceptionally good in their areas to shine. Its only when each character has high stats in almost every ability score but one that makes characters "the same." The game I'm in is low magic and set in Isger. The good ability score of a character and their feats really shines through. Alot more emphasis on the "the coolness is all from the character" and alot less of the "time to shop or craft the +5 holy avenger." Doing heroic things and saving the region becomes the main emphasis.I believe I understand what you are saying Equalizer, but I disagree that PCs with simliar or even the same ability scores will feel the same. When I play Pathfinder I generally don't even know what the other PCs ability scores are, unless they voluntarily tell me.
For PCs to really stand out as unique the player portraying them needs to add character to them through role play IMO. In short ability scores don't give the PCs personality, role playing does.
Every Kobold in the Bestiary that used a Class level has a 15 Pointbuy Elite Array.
I don't think its heroic being on the same level as a Kobold Rogue 1...
Aren't pc classed npcs also more powerful than average cahracters and better villains. I think that depends on how your gm works. Last adventure I had pc classed npcs were the leaders with npc classed mooks in a room sort of as one mini boss and then the bbeg of the adventure.
An interesting point AlienFreak, but I'm not sure why you have chosen to quote me. My post really didn't have anything to do with a 15 pt. buy, but more in how ability scores define a PCs uniqueness. I suppose it was a little off topic actually.I'm currently in a game where we roll 3d6 including ones for ability scores. Its the odd thing where each character has one or two high stats but every thing else isn't great. This actually allows characters exceptionally good in their areas to shine. Its only when each character has high stats in almost every ability score but one that makes characters "the same." The game I'm in is low magic and set in Isger. The good ability score of a character and their feats really shines through. Alot more emphasis on the "the coolness is all from the character" and alot less of the "time to shop or craft the +5 holy avenger." Doing heroic things and saving the region becomes the main emphasis.I believe I understand what you are saying Equalizer, but I disagree that PCs with simliar or even the same ability scores will feel the same. When I play Pathfinder I generally don't even know what the other PCs ability scores are, unless they voluntarily tell me.
For PCs to really stand out as unique the player portraying them needs to add character to them through role play IMO. In short ability scores don't give the PCs personality, role playing does.
Every Kobold in the Bestiary that used a Class level has a 15 Pointbuy Elite Array.
I don't think its heroic being on the same level as a Kobold Rogue 1...
Thats because I accidently hit your post and editing is a pain in here ;)
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Well, I actually like PB15 but it also depends on the setting we're playing. At the moment, I'm running a game in the realms so I agreed to let them roll their stats with a hard lower and upper limit (PB15 and PB25 respectively). I'm also allowing them 2 character traits and use the hero point system from APG. On the other hand, we're also using Paizo's Critical Hit and Critical Fumble Deck and I tend to be a bit stingy with magic items so I guess the challenge's still there.
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Actually, to be serious, the only way I would do something like that would be if I allowed the player to pick. You can start off with 25 pt buy in, but you lose your first lvl feat. You can start at 20 and keep the feat. Or you can go with 15 and gain an additional feat. Of course with the MinMaxer's I would really hamper them so they don't abuse it, but I could see where that would be a fun campaign.
Thats because I accidently hit your post and editing is a pain in here ;)An interesting point AlienFreak, but I'm not sure why you have chosen to quote me. My post really didn't have anything to do with a 15 pt. buy, but more in how ability scores define a PCs uniqueness. I suppose it was a little off topic actually.
... snip
Every Kobold in the Bestiary that used a Class level has a 15 Pointbuy Elite Array.
I don't think its heroic being on the same level as a Kobold Rogue 1...
I see now, not a problem Alienfreak.
I see now, not a problem Alienfreak.Thats because I accidently hit your post and editing is a pain in here ;)An interesting point AlienFreak, but I'm not sure why you have chosen to quote me. My post really didn't have anything to do with a 15 pt. buy, but more in how ability scores define a PCs uniqueness. I suppose it was a little off topic actually.
... snip
Every Kobold in the Bestiary that used a Class level has a 15 Pointbuy Elite Array.
I don't think its heroic being on the same level as a Kobold Rogue 1...
If you did that bogus on purpose, well played, Sir!
I like running APs with 15 pt buy. Why? Because I'm a new GM and adjusting encounters is kinda tricky still. That's the mechanics, anyway. For fluff, I like that a guy who is not really any better than the typical heroic NPC gets to own the show.
I've one question for the 'never play' crowd.
Really? Never? Not even a one shot or as an experiment?
Never. We usually play in a very favorable roll system. Characters are probably 50 or 60 point point buy equivalent with a couple of 18s. We like epic heroic characters.
The DMs need to beef up a lot of the encounters and adjust the CR system accordingly. But it suits my groups style and their imaginations. We don't like imagining little weinie 15 point buy characters.
I know for myself I don't enjoy it because I know I'm well above a 15 point character. I know with absolute certainty you don't have to give up wisdom, charism, and intelligence to have a good strength and dexterity. Many athletes are extremely strong, dextrous, and healthy as well as charismatic, intelligent, and wise. I prefer playing more of that kind of person given I'm closer to that than a limited 15 point buy character.
I can lift 250 lbs over my head. I'm physically strong. I play sports like basketball and football well. I don't go down in a fight like a creame puff. Yet I still have an IQ over 140, don't make completely stupid decisions nor am I oblivious, nor do I lack the ability to carry on a social conversation.
D&D seems to have built their standard stats around the idea that if a person has some extraordinary ability that means they must also have some extremely deficient ability. That isn't true in real life and isn't true in many of the fantasy books I read. I can only surmise that this ability standard was chosen solely for mechanical balance. Since we all know how to manipulate the mechanical balance to challenge high statted characters, we prefer to create characters that better simulate what a trained adventurer might be like on a heroic level.
Heck. Your standard special operations soldier would be built on more than 15 points. Probably be closer to 20 to 25 points or higher depending on their hobbies.
The games had to load up the stats in favor of simplicity. I had good hand-eye coordination as an example, but unlike the game that does not make me good in all things that require hand-eye coordination. I can't hit a baseball well as an example.
In short most people would be more accurately represented with a lot of circumstance modifiers or a skill based system. Going just off of stats a person could score well or above a certain number depending on the evaluation being used. It is really hard to use real life for many reasons I did not even mention to cover game stats.
I know for myself I don't enjoy it because I know I'm well above a 15 point character. I know with absolute certainty you don't have to give up wisdom, charism, and intelligence to have a good strength and dexterity. Many athletes are extremely strong, dextrous, and healthy as well as charismatic, intelligent, and wise. I prefer playing more of that kind of person given I'm closer to that than a limited 15 point buy character.
I can lift 250 lbs over my head. I'm physically strong. I play sports like basketball and football well. I don't go down in a fight like a creame puff. Yet I still have an IQ over 140, don't make completely stupid decisions nor am I oblivious, nor do I lack the ability to carry on a social conversation.
See, I think some of this disagreement comes from differneces of opinion on what certain numbers for ability scores mean. The abilities you describe for yourself above, in my games, would come out to Str 17, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10. 10 isn't bad at things, it means the person is perfectly up to tasks requiring the stat. That comes out to 14 point buy if you assume the human +2 to Str, so there is even room to make that Dex a 13 or one of the other stats an 11.
I would bet that you disagree with my assignings of point values, but I say that's simply because we have different ideas of what the stats mean. PCs are heroic because they are allowed to even have an 18. To me, an 18 means you are among the most talented in the world and a 20 means you are among the most talented in all of history.
Point buy doesn't reflect the average person anyway because you can't even get stats below 7, and there are plenty of examples where normal people are that deficient.
tl;dr version: the meaning of stats is relative to the campaign itself, not absolute. In a game where the average person has 3 points to buy stats, 15 is pretty darn heroic.
I disagree with your assessments of stats. 10 is average person. I know I am better than the average person. And I know some professional athletes are well above the average person.
I do agree that that an 18 or 20 is amongst the best in the world. When I play an epic fantasy character, I want my character to be amongst the best in the world at several things, not just strength or dexterity. I want to be a Superman type. I enjoy it.
I'm a weightlifter, bodybuilder, and athlete. I've read so much on these guys and myself have participated that I would not be happy being a 15 point buy character. Take a guy like Dolph Lundgren as an example. This guy did martial arts, weightlifted, acted, and also has a Chemical Engineering Degree from MIT.
You have quite a few football players that lift 300 lbs, can run a 4.4 to 4.6 40 yard dash, do amazing acts of agility on a football field, and also have degrees in fairly advanced fields. Much of this comes from their best genetic template.
I prefer rolling my stats in a favorable manner and playing a character of that kind. If I'm a fighter, I want to be the Michael Jordan of fighers. If I'm a wizard, I want to Leonardo Davinci of wizards. And so on and so on. I want to be one of the most extraordinary persons on the world at a given time.
That's how I build my worlds and that's how I treat my players. For example, we just finished Kingmaker a bit ago. Our PCs are pretty much amongst the most powerful rulers in Golarion. People fear them in the immediate vicninity. They have heard their names all the way to the Land of the Linnorm Kings. Facing any of them in battle is a fearful proposition for the best people in all of my home campaign of Golarion.
I like my campaigns that way. I don't want to be second fiddle to an Elminster type figure. I want Elminster to be second fiddle to my character. I feel the only way for that to be true is to have great stats that show how physicall and mentally powerful I am to go along with all the heroic deeds. That's my kind of fun.
Why be local hero guy when you can be Conan or Aragorn. One of the greatest heroes to ever walk the earth during your time. A hero of legend.
The games had to load up the stats in...I've one question for the 'never play' crowd.
Really? Never? Not even a one shot or as an experiment?
Never. We usually play in a very favorable roll system. Characters are probably 50 or 60 point point buy equivalent with a couple of 18s. We like epic heroic characters.
The DMs need to beef up a lot of the encounters and adjust the CR system accordingly. But it suits my groups style and their imaginations. We don't like imagining little weinie 15 point buy characters.
I know for myself I don't enjoy it because I know I'm well above a 15 point character. I know with absolute certainty you don't have to give up wisdom, charism, and intelligence to have a good strength and dexterity. Many athletes are extremely strong, dextrous, and healthy as well as charismatic, intelligent, and wise. I prefer playing more of that kind of person given I'm closer to that than a limited 15 point buy character.
I can lift 250 lbs over my head. I'm physically strong. I play sports like basketball and football well. I don't go down in a fight like a creame puff. Yet I still have an IQ over 140, don't make completely stupid decisions nor am I oblivious, nor do I lack the ability to carry on a social conversation.
D&D seems to have built their standard stats around the idea that if a person has some extraordinary ability that means they must also have some extremely deficient ability. That isn't true in real life and isn't true in many of the fantasy books I read. I can only surmise that this ability standard was chosen solely for mechanical balance. Since we all know how to manipulate the mechanical balance to challenge high statted characters, we prefer to create characters that better simulate what a trained adventurer might be like on a heroic level.
Heck. Your standard special operations soldier would be built on more than 15 points. Probably be closer to 20 to 25 points or higher depending on their hobbies.
You're right a skill based system is more accurate. You're talking about specialization.
You still need great initial ability to be the best. Two guys could train at basketball the same amount of years and the same amount of time, but you aren't going to be Michael Jordan if you don't have extraordinary physical and mental attributes to begin with. If I'm going to play a paladin, he's the Michael Jordan of Paladins. He has it all from the great stats to the vast experience to the extraordinary circumstances that helped shape it all into the greatest hero of his time.
Admittedly, it is more impressive for the guy with crappy stats to succeed, you genuinely can't do this to some degree, particularly because the stats represent your intelligence, and wisdom. If (Ancient dragon sized if right here) you roleplay your stats, your character might not be able to actually think of what you want them to think in combat.
15-point is an average person, but your average person is a soon-to-be corpse if stuck in, or even in the general vicinity of, an adventure. This is as true in fiction, as it is in real life, as it is in most games.
Even above-average, but not truly exception, people tend to die, and rather quickly if they aren't lucky. Adventuring is hard, which is why, generally speaking, only awesome people are successful in the long term.If I'm going to go adventuring, I want to be an awesome individual, because I want my character to live to retirement.
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My game is 15 point buy and it hasn't been a problem for anybody. The party is 10th level now and just getting into the "We're so awesome" part of the power curve and nobody has really felt underpowered along the way.
15 point buy PCs just seem a little bit more "human" and "mortal" to me, and it makes the game (especially at lower levels) more gritty and dramatic.
When building enemy NPCs, I don't often adhere to a strict point buy - I just go with what feels right for the challenge level and don't worry about the math on their stats. Besides, the villians usually have to be tough enough to take on/outwit/elude an entire party of heroes, so you kind of have to goose their stats a bit or else they aren't worthy foes.
I cant stand 15 point buy or less. I always end up just gutting some stuff to the max that is allowed. Hate it. Makes me not give a crap about my character either. It is especially hard for me because I usually have something weird I want to do with my stats.
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Um, 15 points isn't 'normal person' it's 'normal hero'.
Boromir, Farimir, the dwarves (except Thorin) in The Hobbit etc.
Now I can see Aragorn being 20 point, but then he's not as human as the others. Think of him as a 'true Azlantan' if you want to Golarion him.
I'll admit I'm torn with teaching the kids. Do I teach them 15 points so they learn an 8 doesn't 'suck' and a 14 is good? Or do I teach them 20 points, so they learn on par with PFS characters?