Lately i´m exploring the amazing world of reach weapons, especially with trip. In my opinion its a great controlling oportunity and fighting larger, mightier oponents it makes at least fluff-wise more sense. It´s even possible to create a build for most classes to fight with a reach weapon with some simple feats. Outflank and Gang-up are just some of them.
SO what i am searching for is reach weapons that you can hold in one hand.
I only found the whip and the lance while mounted so far. All the reach weapon are in the two-handed category somehow. Of course there is somethin about balance, holding a reach weapon single-handed and making a lot of damage. But then, you don´t get the bigger strenght bonus this way.
Think of a shield and spear build like for a phalanx for example, this should somehow be possible with reach.
There is a feat quarterstaff master that lets you hold a quarterstaff in one hand - it´s a double weapon and i suppose you can still double attack then. Maybe reach with one hand could be solved by a feat if its not normally possible?
Also i would love to see things possible with a quarterstaff possible with other polearm type weapons. The whirlwind trip and so on. Not only for fighters, but for monks and robes and the like.
In the end, there´s the idea behind to use the new alterantive rules for armor and damage reduction to create a big gap between STR and DEX builds, but also between different armor types, like no to light - medium and heavy armor. You can be with high DEX, fast and mobile, difficult to hit but not really protected or you can be with heavy armor, slow and better to hit, but also a lot better protected.
For a -2 penalty you can use a one size smaller reach weapon one handed.
Can you point to me where those rules are please?
Weapon Size
Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
@Name Violation: thank you, but i´m actually searching this for none fighters.
@kyrt-ryder: thanks, that´s a great hint.
@Talonhawke: SO it comes to wespon size. Just to see if i got this right:
For a halfling (size s) a medium longsword would be a two handed weapon and he gets -2 on its use?
In my case, a medium human could use a small sized long spear single handed, but also gets a -2 on its use?
Go with a Tiny sized long spear, it's -4, but then you could fit your reach weapon in your pocket!
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Go with a Tiny sized long spear, it's -4, but then you could fit your reach weapon in your pocket!
THIS LOGIC
Quantum mechanics probably.
Tiny sized longspear would most likely lose its reach property.
Or rather since Tiny sized creatures have a natural reach of 0, reach would increase it to 5.
But yes, a halfling has to use a medium longsword in 2 hands and gets a -2, etc
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You could also take lunge with any weapon. Takes a while to get to it, but it's and option.
Lunge (Combat)
You can strike foes that would normally be out of reach.Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made.
Tiny sized longspear would most likely lose its reach property.
Or rather since Tiny sized creatures have a natural reach of 0, reach would increase it to 5.But yes, a halfling has to use a medium longsword in 2 hands and gets a -2, etc
The reach should be at least 10.
So if a human takes a small sized longspear, the reach is still 10, but he gets a -2? Only he can hold it in one hand now? Isn´t there a better possibility?
The lung feat seems quite cool so far. But BAB +6 really takes a while.
Dorn Dergar with the Dorn Dergar Master feat is possible to use it as a one-handed reach weapon instead of 2handed.
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@Talonhawke
This is covered in the 3.5 FAQ and has not be contradicted by anything printed or suggested by the Pathfinder development team, and is still valid
How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation?
A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.
An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon).
A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach from the weapon.
The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics added]. While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule.
Please remember Pathfinder still retains many legacy issues from 3.5 which were partly addressed in FAQs and Errata that did not make it into Pathfinder for very likely legal reasons. Paizo did not use d20srd.org errata modified material as their base but the RTF files provided by Wizards under the OGL license. Please, please, please, if you want to argue corner case rules issue keep these facts in mind. Pathfinder as it exists is not a perfected true standalone game as say Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay or Anima: Beyond Fantasy. It was built on the bones of 3.5 OGL, and while it was polished they bones are what they are.
When there is a conflict between 3.5 and Pathfinder rules, Pathfinder trumps 3.5.
When there is no conflict 3.5 FAQ/Errata should be considered as valid.
Pathfinder Dev FAQ/Errata trumps 3.5 FAQ/Errata.
O.K. Interesting.
This game starts to be a science of its own.
"A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach. "
This sentence give me some thinking though.
Small and medium reach weapons both give reach to 10 feet. No actual difference in lenght, only in weight what modifies the damage too.
So the two-handed reach weapon for a small character becomes a one handed weapon for a medium character, but still has reach. Only you apply -2, because its not from the same size category.
Somehow im not really content with this. If i use the smaller weapon, there is already less damage, why add -2? I could understand this with light weapons or the like, becoming too small and light, but not the normal weapons.
You get the -2 because it is not made for a creature your size the grip is too small the balance is not quite advantageous to your stature.
A longsword is primarily a slashing weapon, a human wielding a halflings longsword would not quite put it to good use wielding it more like a large dagger or a shortsword with a blade and handle that is a bit too small.
You get the -2 because it is not made for a creature your size the grip is too small the balance is not quite advantageous to your stature.
A longsword is primarily a slashing weapon, a human wielding a halflings longsword would not quite put it to good use wielding it more like a large dagger or a shortsword with a blade and handle that is a bit too small.
I should add realism takes a step backwards to allow small sized players to stay remotely viable in combat already, realism would dictate that a human gets an AoO against any halfling that dares to come within his reach.
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Another option is the lance. It's technically a 2h weapon (with all the RAW that goes with that...) but it's also usable one handed.. but only while mounted.
Maybe not exactly what the OP is looking for.. but while mounted, it IS a one-hand-weildable reach weapon. And it's CRB, no 3rd party shenanigans required.
Ok the idea is actually to have a whip in one hand, trip the oponent and then get an AoO on him when he is standing up. Or just attack him from afar while prone.
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Ok the idea is actually to have a whip in one hand, trip the oponent and then get an AoO on him when he is standing up. Or just attack him from afar while prone.
Whip Mastery/Improved Whip Mastery
These feats let you do damage despite the target's armor, and gain the ability to take AoOs with a whip within your natural reach range plus 5'.
Not perfect, especially the BaB +5 requirement for the second feat, but it adds up to all sorts of awesome later.
As ever, this kind of build requires some points in Dex and Combat Reflexes to work.
Whip and dagger/shortsword at low levels, until you can start takiung AoOs with the whip, then two-hand the whip for extra damage, especially if you can spend a feat for Power Attack.
@Dorje Let me look around a bit but James has said that it does work as weird as it is. Nothing in PF says reach changes if your not the right size and not everything that got FAQed for 3.5 remained true search for the threads on fighting with two weapons without TWF using just using attacks granted by BAB.
The double-chained kama and the kasuri-gama from Ultimate Combat are awesome because they are REACH DOUBLE WEAPONS.
That's like having two light reach weapons, which is kind of like what you were looking for.
SO much better than cheesing the system with small weapons and STILL ending up with attack penalties.
I´m strating to think about equipment trick: rope and a rope dart.
You can use a rope as a whip with this, and a rope dart would become a double weapon with reach 20.
Thank you for the hints so far.
The double-chained kama and the kasuri-gama from Ultimate Combat are awesome because they are REACH DOUBLE WEAPONS.
That's like having two light reach weapons, which is kind of like what you were looking for.
not quite,
Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.
you only have one reach attack. But it's still an awesome weapon...
I somehow prefer the whip, because it has the superior reach.
With lunge you can get 20 reach. So many possilities there...
-whirlwind tripping everyone in 20 reach
-as a rogue/ninja whirlwind sneak attacking everyone in 20 reach (hohoho)
Yet for a ninja double-chained kama and the kasuri-gama are great weapons too and if its only for the flavor.
Until you get the second attack it doesn´t really matter that you get only one attack.
the Urumi ...
Unfortunately the Urumi has been changed as of the APG and is no longer a reach weapon. I assume for balance reasons, though it completely destroyed both the gameplay and fluff appeal of using it.
Yes exotic weapons were mostly really undernerfed.
If you consider that they cost a feat normally, its too high a price most times, not worth it. I think if you spend a feat just to use a weapon, the weapon should really shine.
But then, i also think the weapon finesse feat should be abolished and just keyed to the weapons you can use with it. Those weapons deal less damage anyway in most cases im aware of.
As it stands now, the Urumi is just a blade with high crit range and damage. Would be better with reach and lower damage. So its just the same as Katana, only 20gp cheaper and not deadly. Not interesting like most of the exotic weapons. I think its really bad that all nearly reach weapons are two-handed and not finesseable. It hinders a lot of builds and possibilities that would bring great fun but are far from being overpowered.
The double-chained kama and the kasuri-gama from Ultimate Combat are awesome because they are REACH DOUBLE WEAPONS.
That's like having two light reach weapons, which is kind of like what you were looking for.
not quite,
Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.you only have one reach attack. But it's still an awesome weapon...
Huh. I guess you're right. Good thing that limitation does not apply to the kusarigama. It remains a double reach weapon (and as such is effectively like wielding two light reach weapons).
Hrm... Lurk3r, this just totally destroyed a character I just made. On looking it up, it seems it was ISWG/UC that nerfed it, as the APG doesn't mention it anywhere. I suppose I can live without, but only because the character has a ton of survivability. I withdraw my advice to the OP, as my weapon of choice seems to no longer be reach.
My bad.
I think if there was a better option, you would have noticed it. My friend has an effective Whip Fighter, but you already said no to fighters... Also, if you're going for trips, the main damage comes from the attacks of opportunity when they get up, which will probably mostly be coming from your teammates who are in it's face (who hopefully do good damage...). So why not just use a whip? Or a two hander? What do you want in your other hand anyway?
Of course fighters are probably best for things like that due to their costumizability.
The thing is i am currently playing a ninja though and after her inevitable demise being a halfling in cheliax, probably a bard.
Lately i really like reach weapons somehow and shield and polearm or spear is just nice and very original somehow. Also other people with reach are nice for gang-up, especially if you are playing someone with sneak attack.
With trips and AoO´s you are absolutely right and thats a good point.
I have a paladin and an inquisitor, they should make enough damage.
Although a kusarigama is really great, the whip seems the best option because of the greater reach.
I guess with lunge and improved whip mastery you threaten 15 reach?
Then combat patrol and you threaten 20 reach.
In combination with this im thinking about whirlwind attack and trips of course.
Or the grapple route. Greater whip mastery, imroved unarmed strike, improved grapple, chokehold and then strangler. You can deal sneak attack with the grapple and grapple them from 15 feet away, silencing spellcasters.
At the moment there is nothing in the other hand. Eventually some shuriken or daggers or something to throw, just to make some damage in between.
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I think if there was a better option, you would have noticed it. My friend has an effective Whip Fighter, but you already said no to fighters... Also, if you're going for trips, the main damage comes from the attacks of opportunity when they get up, which will probably mostly be coming from your teammates who are in it's face (who hopefully do good damage...). So why not just use a whip? Or a two hander? What do you want in your other hand anyway?
There is a compelling argument for Magus, both straight or with either (or both) Kensai and Blackblade Archtype.
What´s Blackblade archtype?
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What´s Blackblade archtype?
Sorry bladebound archetype from UM: PRD
The feature of the Bladebound is the Black Blade, which replaces his 3rd level magus arcana and some points in his arcane pool with a sentient weapon that grows and scales. Which must be a 1 handed slashing weapon... which a whip is... (Legal by RAW, questionable by RAI...)
Kesnai gives you more of the weapon mastery, and with spell breaker and disruptive as magus arcana you can be pretty scary.
Thanks a lot, thats nice views :)
Yes exotic weapons were mostly really undernerfed.
If you consider that they cost a feat normally, its too high a price most times, not worth it. I think if you spend a feat just to use a weapon, the weapon should really shine.But then, i also think the weapon finesse feat should be abolished and just keyed to the weapons you can use with it. Those weapons deal less damage anyway in most cases im aware of.
As it stands now, the Urumi is just a blade with high crit range and damage. Would be better with reach and lower damage. So its just the same as Katana, only 20gp cheaper and not deadly. Not interesting like most of the exotic weapons. I think its really bad that all nearly reach weapons are two-handed and not finesseable. It hinders a lot of builds and possibilities that would bring great fun but are far from being overpowered.
I just recently got around this problem myself! Take heirloom weapon from adventurers armory!
Not only do you get the weapon at masterwork quality for standard weapon price, you get a +1 trait to hit and proficiency with the weapon!
Though for you: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/equipment-traits/heirloom-weapon would be even better version, since you get +2 to 1 type of CMB!!!!
I thought heirloom was had an errata removing exotic weapons
Ooo, dunno, I dont scour the errata. If you find that out tell me (not that my character cares thank God, lance is martial)
Edit: your right, just saw that in the description is stipulates simple or martial, my bad
Huh. I guess you're right. Good thing that limitation does not apply to the kusarigama. It remains a double reach weapon (and as such is effectively like wielding two light reach weapons).The double-chained kama and the kasuri-gama from Ultimate Combat are awesome because they are REACH DOUBLE WEAPONS.
That's like having two light reach weapons, which is kind of like what you were looking for.
not quite,
Benefit: The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack. By swinging the rope, the wielder can whip the kama about to disarm or trip opponents. Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.you only have one reach attack. But it's still an awesome weapon...
Well, the description of the kusarigama is rather short, but:
This weapon has a single sickle held in the off-hand attached by 10 feet of fine chain to a weighted metal ball.
Benefit: The sickle is used to make trips, jabs, and blocks while the ball is whipped around at high speeds and then smashed into the opponent.
as I see it, only the metal ball part can be used as a reach weapon, while the sickle stays in the off hand, without reach.
Furthermore, you can only use the sickle to trip your opponent, the ball is solely for damaging. (Although I find this point debatable.)
@Dorje Let me look around a bit but James has said that it does work as weird as it is. Nothing in PF says reach changes if your not the right size and not everything that got FAQed for 3.5 remained true search for the threads on fighting with two weapons without TWF using just using attacks granted by BAB.
As I have pointed out before, chunks of the 3.5 RAI went missing with game play examples and errata that wasn't included due to possible legal reasons. Until there is official Pathfinder based comment or direct change, the older rulings are still the best guide. Paizo is very free to differ from that old FAQ ruling. However the question being asked for the OGL system Pathfinder is based on was answered in that FAQ by the company that made it.
Two Weapon Fighting is a bad example because it has already been take up in various ways already. Reach and weapon sizes haven't. The loss of the glossary definition of the off-hand caused no end of forum gnashing only a few months back until Paizo weighed in with an official verdict that it has been indeed stripped from the rules, which is their choice. They could have put the Off-Hand definition back in.
You want this resolved in an official Paizo way, mash the FAQ button. Lets get the grinders over here to buff out the spot. The more of these we dig-up and get resolved, the better a future version of Pathfinder will be.
I'd be overjoyed to give my BBEG's body guard, an Enlarged Human Fighter whip master, a Huge Whip with 45 foot attack reach. He can stand on raised terrain out of most effect melee distance and trip and disarm and generally be an ass.