I want to build a mage-killing specialist for a potential upcoming game. I am pretty sure anything that's in the "prd" will fly, but I am concerned about bringing in non-core stuff, even from Paizo (so I'm going to avoid things like Dervish Dance, etc. Edit: totally mention stuff like that and the source of it so I can petition, but it's not a guarantee).
How should I go about this?
Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder look too amazing to ignore, but there has to be more nuance to this than just taking Superstitious, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder, Disruptive, and Spellbreaker as Rage Powers, doesn't there?
Of course, I have to admit, I don't really care for the aesthetics of a Barbarian--I don't want to be a wild "AM HATE MAGE" or anything, I'd rather my hatred for magic be more academic. I'd like to be able to identify spells and whatnot, so losing the ability to make Spellcraft checks while raging would be problematic. Is my only option the weird "Urban Barbarian?"
Is there any way I could do this as a Fighter instead? As a Ranger? There used to be a Favored Enemy: Mages option in 3.5...
Or is the best anti-mage, unfortunately, another caster of some sort? I'd like to avoid casting if at all possible, and I'd like to be a competant melee fighter when not fighting mages, but if it's really the best magekiller, I'll at least consider it no matter what it is.
I was very good at optimizing 3.5 back in the day, but I've only been exposed to Pathfinder for about a week, and at the moment, only through the prd. There's plenty I'm likely to miss, which is why I am asking here. For example, I'm especially bad with magic items that might help, since I historically never used magic items in my games.
Please don't turn into another AM vs Castys thread, please don't turn into another AM vs Castys thread, please don't turn into another AM vs Castys thread.
Other mage-killers:
* Arcane Duelist bard
* Spellbreaker inquisitor
* Witch Hunter inquisitor
But barbarian probably does it best.
Starting level?
Oh dear.
Never, EVER take Disruptive or Spellbreaker. They're wasted as feats and even more wasted as rage powers.
Urban Barbarian is your option to make spellcraft checks while raging.
You need some way to gain access to flight. If potions are not an option, a mount would work, or failing that some kind of magic item. Alternatively, you will need a bow.
Witch Hunter is only half-amazing. As a Barbarian, you deal enough damage to butcher the squishy castys, the bonus damage is most useful against monsters with SLA's.
Also: Ground rule. Second anyone mentions AM, I am nuking them from orbit. This is for actual play.
Also: Ground rule. Second anyone mentions AM, I am nuking them from orbit. This is for actual play.
Say his name three times and you will summon him.
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Aren't monks still decent for mage-hunting? They've got the speed and acrobatics to get to the backline casters, high saves and evasion to avoid anything that can get cast at them, and then have the option of focusing on disrupting or grapple-pin-gag. It's more or less effective depending on what level you're at, but should be an option.
My personal favorite is the halfling monk grapple monkey. Extra dex for agile maneuvers, more bonus to saves, and pump all your favored class bonus into extra grapple bonus. You've got a pretty good chance to grapple anything, and spellcasters have no chance. Your CMD for grapple will be so high that nothing has a chance of getting free once grabbed - just don't expect to ever do much damage. Bring lots of rope so you can tie up the big bad guy and move on to the next lackey.
Please don't turn into another AM vs Castys thread, please don't turn into another AM vs Castys thread, please don't turn into another AM vs Castys thread.
Say his name three times and you will summon him.
I had no idea this was a person or a common theme or something here. I personally have never liked magic in D&D, but then, I never liked barbarians, either, so it's a wash, I guess.
Starting level?
I have no idea. I'm assuming 1st, but I like to plan for the long run regardless.
Never, EVER take Disruptive or Spellbreaker. They're wasted as feats and even more wasted as rage powers.
I'm glad you said that--they looked kind of weak, but I've never seen Pathfinder Concentration checks. I was hoping and assuming they were harder than they used to be such that the feats weren't sucky. I guess not?
Urban Barbarian is your option to make spellcraft checks while raging.
That's an unpleasant trade-off, but a necessary one.
You need some way to gain access to flight. If potions are not an option, a mount would work, or failing that some kind of magic item. Alternatively, you will need a bow.
See, this is the sort of stuff I don't think about because I always run games with really low levels of magic.
Witch Hunter is only half-amazing. As a Barbarian, you deal enough damage to butcher the squishy castys, the bonus damage is most useful against monsters with SLA's.
True, but it's a pre-req for Spell Sunder anyway. Plus, I like the feel of it.
Other mage-killers:
Thanks, I'll check them out--the inquisitor seems appropriate, too. But if Barbarian does it best, and does it without spellcasting (especially prepared, rather than spontaneous, casting), I'll probably ultimately go in that direction.
Also, Spellkiller inquisition for...wait for it...inquisitors!
Spell Sunder is what makes barbarians the best, IMO.
A spellbreaker inquisitor with the spellkiller inquisition will make it really hard for casters near you to cast. Make sure to grab the Step Up -> Step Up and Strike line of feats, as well as Combat Reflexes. They 5' step away to cast, and you follow them, whack them, and then get the AoO from spellcasting.
While the Urban Barbarian archetype is a definite possibility, also consider using the Moment of Clarity rage power. True, it's only usable once per rage, but there is another power (or maybe a feat) which would allow you to enter multiple rages in a single encounter by allowing you to ignore the fatigued condition.
Another way to enter rage multiple times in an encounter and make use of this power would be to multiclass into Oracle for 5 lvls with the Lame curse which would make you immune to fatigue. That would also grant you a more "academic" feel, though possibly more clergy-style. Otherwise you could wait for Tireless Rage at lvl 17.
Note that ending a rage is a free action, and it's just another free action to enter a new rage. so with the Oracle build you could Rage, use Moment of Clarity, end Rage, repeat, with no downtime for fatigue. Biggest drawbacks: poor low-level spells from Oracle (though better than what you had as a Barbarian, aka: none), and loosing Mighty Rage from Barbarian (but now you might be able to compensate with a spell), and the loss of speed to get you into the fray (maybe a spell fix again).
You can also get Rage and Rage Powers by using the Wild Stalker Archetype for the Ranger, which can actually be blended nicely with the Ranger's Shapeshifter archetype. (One of these modifies Combat Style without actually replacing it, and the other replaces it altogether, so this might need some houseruling, but still an idea.)
This build only gets vanila Rage (no Greater or Mighty Rage), but also grants bonuses to stats and skill checks depending on the totems you select. With this ability you can easily rage (+4 Str and Con), take Bear form for +4 Str, and the Dragon form for +2 AC. If you get it to lvl 20, these bonuses double and you can use Beast Shape IV or Form of the Dragon I to pump things up even more.
However, all-in-all, I'd likely still use the Urban Barbarian. The switched out class skills is minor, the loss of meduim armor can be overcome by a 1 lvl dip into a number of other classes, the Crowd Control ability (replacing fast movement) is flavorful, and the ability to use mental stats, ignore AC penalties, and assign your bonuses (even if it is to just one stat) is well worth not getting a bonus on your bonus on Will saves, IMHO. (The bonus to Con was almost more of a penalty when rage ended anyway, even if it did keep you in the fight longer.)
Of course these are all opinions, so take what you like and Disregard the rest. Hope that helps.
Tetori monks are also useful for this. You can grapple anything, and not even dimension door can save them.
Actually, I took so long writting that last post, I just saw the one about monk. A Tetori style monk would do really well with the Grapple tactics mentioned earlier and deal decent damage too, but looses Diamond Soul, so no SR. He also gives up Slow fall, so he wouldn't be able to access Cloud Step (feat or ability, I forget) to get to flying opponents, but there are items you could acquire to overcome both of these limitations.
Another good Monk archetype would be the Quigon Monk. You can get Cloud Step, essentially gaining the ability to fly, and a few other neat abilities. It would be like fighting a magic user by beating him over the head with some of his own tricks. :)
Another way to enter rage multiple times in an encounter and make use of this power would be to multiclass into Oracle for 5 lvls with the Lame curse which would make you immune to fatigue. That would also grant you a more "academic" feel, though possibly more clergy-style. Otherwise you could wait for Tireless Rage at lvl 17.
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the Lame thing. I know it's powerful, but I really hate the look of it (while on the other hand, I love the aesthetics of the blind, haunted, and tongues curses).
I did actually consider a Rage Prophet, briefly, but I'd really like to avoid spells altogether if I can.
You can also get Rage and Rage Powers by using the Wild Stalker Archetype for the Ranger, which can actually be blended nicely with the Ranger's Shapeshifter archetype. (One of these modifies Combat Style without actually replacing it, and the other replaces it altogether, so this might need some houseruling, but still an idea.)
This build only gets vanila Rage (no Greater or Mighty Rage), but also grants bonuses to stats and skill checks depending on the totems you select. With this ability you can easily rage (+4 Str and Con), take Bear form for +4 Str, and the Dragon form for +2 AC. If you get it to lvl 20, these bonuses double and you can use Beast Shape IV or Form of the Dragon I to pump things up even more.
I don't think I'm into being a Shapeshifter, but the idea of Ranger Rage is cool--too bad you can't get Urban Ranger Rage or something like that.
However, all-in-all, I'd likely still use the Urban Barbarian. The switched out class skills is minor, the loss of meduim armor can be overcome by a 1 lvl dip into a number of other classes, the Crowd Control ability (replacing fast movement) is flavorful, and the ability to use mental stats, ignore AC penalties, and assign your bonuses (even if it is to just one stat) is well worth not getting a bonus on your bonus on Will saves, IMHO. (The bonus to Con was almost more of a penalty when rage ended anyway, even if it did keep you in the fight longer.)
Yeah, the class skills are all things I have no interest in (while the ones I lose are all fairly useful), but that is really minor. I agree with you on the Hit Point loss being a liability, but I was looking at it really as trading the ability to function mentally and not lose AC for a +2 to Will and Fortitude.
I'm going to start reading up on the Monk--I was under the impression they were still crappy, even in Pathfinder.
My vote would be for one of the combat maneuver monk builds (particularly grapple) will make it difficult to get off many spells sucessfully. Plus you have nearly the best saves, making it easier to get close to the mage. Disarming wands, staves, scrolls. Tripping so he can't go anywhere. Grappling to virtually stop any spels with somantic components. Especially good if you can get someone to cast silence on you (or a magic item for same) before you charge the mage.
Can also probably do pretty good with a high charisma paladin (for the best saves) and probably doing a bit more damage when you get next to him/her/it.
... I'm going to start reading up on the Monk--I was under the impression they were still crappy, even in Pathfinder.
Only if you try to be able to do everthing.
Monk is actually good for this build. Abundant Step will get you to just about any opponent, the Improved Grapple tree will let you deal decent damage while preventing any spell with a somatic component and cranking up the Concentration DC for all other spells to a ridiculous level. I'd try to get an item that would allow you to cast Silence too (a ring would be ideal, if unusual) so spells really wouldn't be an option for your target.
Take a couple other feats to flesh things out and you will not only be a spellcaster's bane, but a pretty good melee fighter to boot.
There are alternate channeling abilities of several types for clerics that let you ignore fatigue for 1 minute as well. A 1 level dip would snag one of these, but it would be best if you had a cleric on the team who was hitting you with this instead.
If you take it yourself you are slowing progression in other areas and having to spend a round at the beginning of combat to channel this onto yourself (time you should be getting into position or charging).
Regarding Disruptive and Spellbreaker -- I have seen these feats put to good use by a high level Eldritch Knight designed to be good at stomping mages, so I would not say they're traps or useless by any means. They're great in combination with other feats that keep people from moving away from you or allowing you to walk with them, like Stand Still or Step up.
Although interestingly and in fairness I think he used them more effectively against monsters with spell-like abilities than enemy spellcasters. And it would be nice if there was an "Improved Disruption" feat that boosted the difficulty further. But they are good feats and I have seen them used well. There are very, very few feats or abilities I would dismiss out of hand unless I saw them fail repeatedly in action many times.
My personal preference for a mage-slayer would be arcane duelist. Good combat abilities combined with good spells that can be used to thwart and counter. Certain monk builds also work really well as mentioned. A fighter/rogue that is very mobile and maybe Detect Magic as a rogue talent would be interesting, though probably less optimal than the others.
And if you don't want to play a barbarian, for god's sake, don't play one. Even if it could be proven outright that you will be 10% more successful as a mage-killer than the other builds, personally I'd go with whatever build gives me 100% more fun. Any of the suggested builds will work and they will be more than effective especially if you're a good tactician, so pick the one that makes you feel the most excited, not what the favorite of the week for the messageboard theorycrafters is.
Can also probably do pretty good with a high charisma paladin (for the best saves) and probably doing a bit more damage when you get next to him/her/it.
I'm not super interested in being a Paladin, I don't think. If I were going to be divine, I'd probably be an Oracle instead.
Monk is actually good for this build. Abundant Step will get you to just about any opponent, the Improved Grapple tree will let you deal decent damage while preventing any spell with a somatic component and cranking up the Concentration DC for all other spells to a ridiculous level. I'd try to get an item that would allow you to cast Silence too (a ring would be ideal, if unusual) so spells really wouldn't be an option for your target.
Take a couple other feats to flesh things out and you will not only be a spellcaster's bane, but a pretty good melee fighter to boot.
It seems really MAD, though. I would need Wisdom, Strength, and Dex (since I'm wearing no armor) as well. I'm liking the idea of teleporting to their side and just ripping their face off or something, but I don't know.
I would prefer a weapon, and I'm not huge on the mystical Buddhist part of the Monk, but it's interesting. Especially Tetori.
My personal preference for a mage-slayer would be arcane duelist. Good combat abilities combined with good spells that can be used to thwart and counter.
I'm not really seeing what they really bring to the table. I mean, yes, they get the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats, but otherwise, what is it? The Bard spell list?
And if you don't want to play a barbarian, for god's sake, don't play one. Even if it could be proven outright that you will be 10% more successful as a mage-killer than the other builds, personally I'd go with whatever build gives me 100% more fun. Any of the suggested builds will work and they will be more than effective especially if you're a good tactician, so pick the one that makes you feel the most excited, not what the favorite of the week for the messageboard theorycrafters is.
Ha, I love theorycrafting, though! That's actually a constant problem for me, because I often have to choose between an option that is better, and one I find more aesthetically pleasing--both bring me fun, it's just different kinds of fun.
Spell Sunder is really what is selling me on Barbarian--the idea of literally cutting down a spell is really awesome to me. It's just the "typical" barbarian that I find unappealing (you know, big, dumb, and savage).
I'm disappointed that Spell Sunder is only once per Rage, though. Actually, I'm disappointed that like 90% of the good Rage Powers are once per rage.
What options are available to avoid Fatigue other than waiting to 17th level?
Monk (Martial Artist) 5 is kind of a neat choice (and if it combines with Maneuver Master, it'd work pretty well overall). I would consider the Lame Oracle to be out unless there is a secret that makes Rage Prophet amazingly better than it looks. (Edit: though an Oracle with the Lore mystery and the Lame curse being related to a magical wound of some sort...hmm)
But both would take all the way until 11th level before I could Spell Sunder multiple times, and I don't know, by that point, there's got to be another option--items maybe? I don't know.
I guess I'm hoping for a really generous Cleric to help me out--but then, my theme is anti-caster, so I don't know if such a character would accept it.
I guess I'm hoping for a really generous Cleric to help me out--but then, my theme is anti-caster, so I don't know if such a character would accept it.
Hmm, not only anti arcane caster, but divine caster too?
May I ask what you plan on doing for healing? For magic items?
This point I can help with!
If it's getting fatigue immunity you're after, I have a couple of ways to do it.
Heart of the Fields: This human bonus (replacing skilled) gives you the power to ignore any source that causes fatigue or exhaustion 1/day. Also you get a bonus to the profession skill of your choice.
Roused Anger: Rage while fatigued, lose fatigued status, then become exhausted. If only there was a way to ignore the exhaustion it causes... (Read up 1.) Still, it's a valuable Rage Power slot.
Allnight: A black market item from the adventurers armory, Allnight imposes a stiff -2 penalty on all skill checks. In return, you are immune to fatigue for 8 hours. Nothing is more frightening than a Barbarian on a sugar high. Minus side is that you're exhausted after 8 hours are up, except heart of the fields is awesome and you want it. Also a minus is that gold cost. And that it's an illegal drug, probably specifically for this reason.
Lame oracle: it'd work by 9th overall. You are a casty, though. Maybe god told you to smite castys?
Martial Artist 5: You get fatigue immunuty. Yay.
There may be others, like potion of lesser restoration, but these are the most common.
Hmm, not only anti arcane caster, but divine caster too?
May I ask what you plan on doing for healing? For magic items?
That is probably a good question that I can't answer. Like I said, I've never run a game of any version of D&D with any magic items (no, not even potions), and pre-4e, I've pretty much always banned full spellcasters.
See, this is why I posted, I'd have never considered that before. I guess I need to appreciate healing magic then. If nothing else I'm forming a personality!
Heart of the Fields: This human bonus (replacing skilled) gives you the power to ignore any source that causes fatigue or exhaustion 1/day. Also you get a bonus to the profession skill of your choice.
Ooh, that's a damn good one--I can't imagine early on requiring lots of Spell Sunders, so 1 extra in one crucial fight per day might just be enough.
Roused Anger: Rage while fatigued, lose fatigued status, then become exhausted. If only there was a way to ignore the exhaustion it causes... (Read up 1.) Still, it's a valuable Rage Power slot.
Nice combo. Though, I have to admit, I'm struggling to love many Rage Powers other than Spell Sunder.
Allnight: A black market item from the adventurers armory, Allnight imposes a stiff -2 penalty on all skill checks.
I don't think I like the idea of a PC doing drugs, but it's a good thing to know about anyway.
Lame oracle: it'd work by 9th overall. You are a casty, though. Maybe god told you to smite castys?
Yes, but I can't Spell Sunder until 6th (which is the point of being immune to Fatigue with this character), so I'd need a minimum of 5 Oracle levels in addition to that. That's 11th level. Unless you know something I don't.
There may be others, like potion of lesser restoration, but these are the most common.
Thanks, that helps a lot.
Since you brought it up (precious rage power slot), let me broach this question:
Other than Witch Hunter/Spell Sunder, what are worthwhile Rage powers to take? Superstition looks good, but I don't know how common friendly spells during combat are (remember, I never ran games with magic in them before). I know Pounce is much lauded, but I don't really care for gaining claws. What's awesome?
I do. For the purpose of curses, non oracle levels are divided by two and added to oracle levels
This means that 8 barbarian levels become 4 effective oracle levels, +1 oracle level equals level 5 for the purpose of the lame curse. One dip, and you're immune at 9th.
As far as rage powers, this depends. Do you see yourself on a mount, or on foot?
Never, EVER take Disruptive or Spellbreaker. They're wasted as feats and even more wasted as rage powers.
Would you mind going into more detail here? I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing.
I do. For the purpose of curses, non oracle levels are divided by two and added to oracle levels
See, this is what happens when I don't have the books yet. Thanks.
As far as rage powers, this depends. Do you see yourself on a mount, or on foot?
On foot, almost certainly. Unless I realistically need one to fly or something later on--I really don't know what it's actually like because of my aforementioned no-magic games.
@Dire: Disruptive requires too much investment to be useful, IMO. Particularly on a Barbarian. That's the short version.
On foot, I love Superstition. It's a requirement for witch hunter anyways, and you can use your favored class bonus as a human to boost its bonus even higher. The best buffs can be cast prior to raging, or else don't allow saving throws. Witch Hunter and SPELL SUNDER you already know.
I like Eater of magic, as it's a 1/rage reroll to any save versus a spell that is actually better than a normal reroll. The Beast Totem line gives you scaling additional natural armor (I am 90% certain it stacks with an amulet), claws for use with reach weapons, and pounce... Which is pounce.
Reckless Abandon gives you a very nice scaling bonus to attack rolls at the cost of AC. And come and get me...
Go read it. I'll wait.
Done? Add in combat reflexes and dazing assault and now you're also a melee god.
Strength Surge is also handy for when you absolutely, positively have to guard against or succeed at a combat manuver (sunder). Finally, I just like the middle finger effect of unexpected strike, and there's also one other talent that gives you another AoO opportunity a round above your 1+reflexes.
I'm not really seeing what they really bring to the table. I mean, yes, they get the Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats, but otherwise, what is it? The Bard spell list?
My personal preference for a mage-slayer would be arcane duelist. Good combat abilities combined with good spells that can be used to thwart and counter.
In part. It's also that they've got an adaptive and well-rounded build with a good set of class skills to deal with casters as well (e.g., Spellcraft and various knowledges -- stuff that is useful for hunting mages not just during combat but also out of combat, during the campaign--being able to recognize the creatures that are summoned by a wizard (which a Barbarian can't do with its class skills)). When dealing with mages, you're dealing with things that can pull all kinds of out of their... hats, and so someone with diverse skills and adaptiveness is good.
A Barbarian's got Spell Sunder, but a Bard can actually counterspell, either with his own spells or with dispel magic once he hits 7th level--not to mention have the Spellcraft skill to recognize which wards and spells need to get gone first. Bard's also got distraction at 1st level which is circumstantial, but still useful. Arcane Duelist loses Countersong, though.
And back to Disruptive and Spellbreaker, it's that they're free--doesn't tax out of the feats being taken (Barbarian doesn't spend feats, but can only use them during rage. A Fighter would still do better for number of feats, however).
Basically it comes down to that an Arcane Duelist can try to beat the mage at their own game as well as be able to show up next to them out of nowhere and stab them to death.
Even I won't say it's the best build, but it's one I know I personally would enjoy building most. YMMV of course.
Ha, I love theorycrafting, though! That's actually a constant problem for me, because I often have to choose between an option that is better, and one I find more aesthetically pleasing--both bring me fun, it's just different kinds of fun.
Don't get me wrong, it can be a great deal of fun. I just see people (not you, really) sometimes come up with a perfectly fun and viable build and then be nagged to death to change their build to something "optimal"--which may not even suit the campaign they're in or whatever. So I always feel the need to say "Don't play something just because someone else wants you to!" even though I realize it's probably entirely unnecessary.
Spell Sunder is really what is selling me on Barbarian--the idea of literally cutting down a spell is really awesome to me. It's just the "typical" barbarian that I find unappealing (you know, big, dumb, and savage).
It is cool, but it's basically just a counterspell or dispel swapping CMB for caster level (which, I realize, a Barbarian's CMB is going to be freaking scary).
Fluff wise, you could certainly build a "berserker warrior" who was not dumb, simply using a certain fighting style that favors might and outdoor travel and battle (skill wise). In my world, for example, there are no "barbarian tribes" amongst the civilized races; someone with barbarian levels is not an ignorant savage but a warrior simply trained with a different set of skills than a typical soldier or mercenary.
I'm disappointed that Spell Sunder is only once per Rage, though. Actually, I'm disappointed that like 90% of the good Rage Powers are once per rage.
I feel that way about a lot of Rage Powers too--also that so many you have to wait to take them, so I always feel like when I test build a barbarian (never played one in practice, mind), that I feel like I'm not going to be able to feel like I'm reflecting my character concept until several levels in.
What options are available to avoid Fatigue other than waiting to 17th level?
It's temporary and eventually deals a small amount of nonlethal damage, but the first level bard spell invigorate temporarily relieves it. If playing a barbarian, maybe have a party member know it or get some potions of it (or multiclass to bard-barian ;) ).
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It could be that I'm just old fashioned, senile and clueless, but I always thought that rogues made good anti-casters. Granted, using a rogue that way means that you're putting primary emphasis on sneaking into wherever the wizard is and starting the fight on your terms. But if a rogue can stealth during a fight (and the stereotypical caster usually isn't putting a lot of skill ranks in perception) you can still do a lot of good. Of course if you're going to be slanting a rogue this way then the Use Magic Device skill is your friend because it can potentially give you the use of just about any arcane or divine spell in the game. Just my two cents.
Magician Bard has a performance to disrupt spellcasting. Bards already have stuff like dispell and silence, but picking up a killer spell from another list can be good.
Con: Its very magic in nature. I like the inquisitor better for flavor.
Also: Ground rule. Second anyone mentions AM, I am nuking them from orbit. This is for actual play.
Bring it on AM BARBARIAN.
*holds a target sign above head*
Tetori monk is the best mage slayer there is.
Abundant step (dimension door) right beside the mage, grapple and pummel. There is nothing the mage can do.
And if you want to be an ass, pay for a item that has an anti magic field. Since a monk doesn't need magic as much as others, the mage is dead.
Also backbreaker deals 2d6 from the opponent's strength. Most wizards I know ignore strength completely. So that 2d6 from a base score of 10 is a very dangerous roll for him, and a fun roll for the monk.
In part. It's also that they've got an adaptive and well-rounded build with a good set of class skills to deal with casters as well (e.g., Spellcraft and various knowledges -- stuff that is useful for hunting mages not just during combat but also out of combat, during the campaign--being able to recognize the creatures that are summoned by a wizard (which a Barbarian can't do with its class skills)). When dealing with mages, you're dealing with things that can pull all kinds of out of their... hats, and so someone with diverse skills and adaptiveness is good.
Barbarians only get 2 fewer skills, and I can still take Spellcraft and Knowledges (I planned on it, actually).
Actually, as a side question, I noticed that Gather Information is gone in Pathfinder (thankfully, to be honest), but that means I need to scour the skill pages to find which one lets me "track" people in urban environments. I figured Knowledge (Local), but it seems that's not the case.
A Barbarian's got Spell Sunder, but a Bard can actually counterspell, either with his own spells or with dispel magic once he hits 7th level--not to mention have the Spellcraft skill to recognize which wards and spells need to get gone first.
I don't know, I feel like Spell Sunder is a hell of a lot more reliable than Dispel. But really, any class with Dispel can do this and be a good anti-mage. Magus, for example, has Dispel, Arcane Theft, and an arcana that lets them Dispel on a hit. So, what makes this bard especially better at it than, say, a Magus?
Basically it comes down to that an Arcane Duelist can try to beat the mage at their own game as well as be able to show up next to them out of nowhere and stab them to death.
I think that I appreciate seeing the anti-caster builds that are casters themselves, but I think I want to avoid them, personally.
It's temporary and eventually deals a small amount of nonlethal damage, but the first level bard spell invigorate temporarily relieves it. If playing a barbarian, maybe have a party member know it or get some potions of it (or multiclass to bard-barian ;) ).
At least there are multiple "party caster helping me" options.
Of course if you're going to be slanting a rogue this way then the Use Magic Device skill is your friend because it can potentially give you the use of just about any arcane or divine spell in the game.
I've been heavily considering UMD for the Barbarian idea, too.
So, I have a lot to contemplate. I'm going to sketch out a Monk, a straight up Barbarian, and an Oracle 1/Barbarian and see what I like best.
The Oracle might be the most useful--I could take Mystery of Lore and get Charisma to AC/Reflex, thus effectively dumping Dex and going Strength/Charisma. I'll have Detect Magic whenever I want, to take advantage of my Spellcraft. And it'll help me out a lot in the skill department. Plus, at 9th level, I can go in and out of rage freely.
The major downside is the aesthetics. I thought the blindness curse seemed really badass, and I can picture that and it looks cool. I think the Haunted and Tongues curses also are pretty neat and can picture them and find it chilling and neat. I can't think of Lame as, well, anything but lame. I know it's got the key ability Barbarians need, but it's just so unappealing to me, that it may actually be one time that theorycraft loses to aesthetics.
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Zen archer is another monk archetype that could shine as a mage slayer, especially at mid to high-levels. You can attack from such a distance that many spells won't be a problem (and evasion should take care of those long-distant evocations. High saves all around, a ton of arrow damage, and ideally great Perception and Init. It might not be as 'themed' as some other builds, but I could see a master of the bow who believes in the purity of the arrow over brute magic.
Well, if your really like the other curses you could always go dual-cursed Lame/X and still get the fatigue immunity, but the other curse would never advance.
ie: Clouded Vision would never see beyond 30 ft, Haunted would never get more than Mage Hand and Ghost Sound, and Tongues would only ever get one additional language, etc.
That said, a high Perception and Detect Magic could largely negate many of these penalties for Clouded Vision, at least against spellcasters and anyone wearing armor (or otherwise making a lot of noise), especially with Skill Focus and a racial bonus to that skill.
Either way, it seems that the least expensive method to get immunity to fatigue is the one lvl dip into Oracle with the Lame curse (1/2 your non-oracle lvls advancing the curse, and thanks to Trinam for pointing that out). But don't feel too bad about the slower movement. Remember, it modifies your base movement, as does Fast Movement, which effectively cancels them both out at Barbarian 1 / Oracle 1, so you suffer no net penalty, but no net benefit either.
If you are still interested in the build, my thoughts are that it isn't a bad trade off. Fast movement for earlier immunity to fatigue and oodles of uses of once-per-rage abilities at lvl 9 instead of 17+. And as you stated yourself, the Lore mystery with the Sidestep revelation will consolidate your major stats to Str/Cha (not to disregard Con, tho).
The only other thing you might miss out on is Mighty Rage, but that's assuming that your party stops at 20th lvl, and most campaigns either never reach that or pass it by a couple of lvls anyway.
Of course, that's just me again with my thoughts. Other ways work too, such as the assundrious monk builds, a dedicated fighter build, and various bard builds, etc. It is really going to depend on what you want to play. Once you've decided on that we can really get this ball rolling for you.
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Aren't monks still decent for mage-hunting? They've got the speed and acrobatics to get to the backline casters, high saves and evasion to avoid anything that can get cast at them, and then have the option of focusing on disrupting or grapple-pin-gag. It's more or less effective depending on what level you're at, but should be an option.
My personal favorite is the halfling monk grapple monkey. Extra dex for agile maneuvers, more bonus to saves, and pump all your favored class bonus into extra grapple bonus. You've got a pretty good chance to grapple anything, and spellcasters have no chance. Your CMD for grapple will be so high that nothing has a chance of getting free once grabbed - just don't expect to ever do much damage. Bring lots of rope so you can tie up the big bad guy and move on to the next lackey.
actually i would agree with this, a tetori monk will destroy anything caster... period. only problem is that tetori needs a little errata before anyone can play it. which we have been asking for over what, 3 months now?
Lame can represent many things. Examples: Club foot, Wounded leg, frostbitten toes, poilio ect.
Id go with Old Injury for a Oracle/Barb. Something that was an almost lethal, character defining moment.
Zen archer is another monk archetype that could shine as a mage slayer, especially at mid to high-levels.
Zen Archer is pretty awesome, but I think I'd rather be melee this game, ultimately. I'm actually moving away from the Monk--not because it isn't awesome at killing Mages, but because:
1) I have no idea what stat generation will be like--I'm assuming point buy, but don't really know--and Monks only seem to work (to me) with relatively high stats.
2) I am having a hard time getting excited about putting mages in headlocks and whatnot. I know it's effective, but it's not quite as cool to me as cleaving through their spells (and the big, two-handed weapon is a bonus).
Well, if your really like the other curses you could always go dual-cursed Lame/X and still get the fatigue immunity, but the other curse would never advance.
I don't think I find them quite cool enough to be further penalized for essentially no benefit. I did consider it, though.
Either way, it seems that the least expensive method to get immunity to fatigue is the one lvl dip into Oracle with the Lame curse (1/2 your non-oracle lvls advancing the curse, and thanks to Trinam for pointing that out). But don't feel too bad about the slower movement. Remember, it modifies your base movement, as does Fast Movement, which effectively cancels them both out at Barbarian 1 / Oracle 1, so you suffer no net penalty, but no net benefit either.
I don't think the Urban Barbarian gets Fast Movement--I really wish you could just take certain replacement traits, and not whole archetypes.
And as you stated yourself, the Lore mystery with the Sidestep revelation will consolidate your major stats to Str/Cha (not to disregard Con, tho).
The only flaw I see is that I would be sort of helpless with a bow if I dumped Dex. But then, with a high Charisma, I could probably more easily UMD a wand or some kind of magic weapon to use at range if need be.
The only other thing you might miss out on is Mighty Rage, but that's assuming that your party stops at 20th lvl, and most campaigns either never reach that or pass it by a couple of lvls anyway.
I really don't know what the habits of this group are--this will be my first time roleplaying with, essentially, strangers. I know that if I hit 20, I'll be pissed I couldn't get the capstone, but until and unless that happens (and the game actually stops at 20, too), I am really not going to care.
It is really going to depend on what you want to play. Once you've decided on that we can really get this ball rolling for you.
I think I am pretty sold on Barbarian at this point. My only question is whether to dip for Oracle or not. I don't know how this GM would feel about that stuff--he might consider it cheesy (it kind of is, after all), even though it sort of fits the concept--especially if the magical curse that made me Lame was part of the reason I've dedicated myself to hunting mages.
But I can't imagine there'd be a hell of a lot of difference between the builds otherwise. One needs need to pick some minor spells and is better at social skills and UMD (and could be awesome at all Knowledges, too, with another revelation, perhaps from that feat?)--oh and has more skills, because I wouldn't need Heart of the Fields. The other way has more Dex, so better non-social skills, ranged attacks, and CMD.
So, the advice is probably the same, either way, right?
only problem is that tetori needs a little errata before anyone can play it. which we have been asking for over what, 3 months now?
Even though I decided against being a grappling monk, now I'm curious. Why do they need errata to be playable?
Lame can represent many things. Examples: Club foot, Wounded leg, frostbitten toes, poilio ect.
Id go with Old Injury for a Oracle/Barb. Something that was an almost lethal, character defining moment.
Yeah, I agree with the character defining moment, if I go that way.
I was thinking something along the lines of a sibling being seduced by a cult and mind controlled into sacrificial suicide somehow, to get the distrust of magic train rolling. If my "lameness" was a result of some lingering magical effect they levied against me that prevented me from saving said sibling (slowing me down such that I couldn't get to them in time), then that's all the more badass.
But yeah, I'm having trouble getting exciting about limping into battle (despite how powerful it will make me), so I need it to be something awesome.
I've become a big fan of the dirty tricks combat manuever over grappling to slow down a caster. Blind casters can't use LOS spells, deaf ones have a 20% failure chance on anything with a verbal component, and entangled casters have to make a concentration check (DC 15 + the spell's level). Almost any martial based character will be able to hit the mage's CMD without any dedicated items or feats, and since taking an AoO from a wizard isn't usually a scary situation you don't even need the "improved" feat for it.
Another fluff option to consider with the lame curse is to take a page out of Sinbad and the Eye of the Tiger and have one leg transformed into something... inhuman... in this case, probably by a mage - hence the focus on mage-slaying! ;)
Yeah, I am liking the idea of a mage's curse--I did briefly consider the idea maybe having my feet twisted into hooves or something, but then, I didn't want to leave room for a jerk GM (remember, I don't actually know how this guy runs games) to deny me the ability to wear magical boots or something. I think I've grown to almost like the Lame thing. Maybe I'll have my legs frostbitten from an ice spell or have it such that they were shattered totally from a spell, and mended badly. I guess it really doesn't matter as long as a spell did it to me.
I've become a big fan of the dirty tricks combat manuever over grappling to slow down a caster. Blind casters can't use LOS spells, deaf ones have a 20% failure chance on anything with a verbal component, and entangled casters have to make a concentration check (DC 15 + the spell's level). Almost any martial based character will be able to hit the mage's CMD without any dedicated items or feats, and since taking an AoO from a wizard isn't usually a scary situation you don't even need the "improved" feat for it.
Yeah, but can't they just remove the condition with a Move action? So, they just move action to remove the problem and then cast with their standard, right? I don't think trading a standard for their move is a good trade. I would need the Greater Dirty Trick feat before I can at least deny them a Standard, but even still, that's hardly worth it--a standard for a standard is a stalemate.
Yeah, so I'm liking the Oracle 1/Barbarian thing. I suppose that mechanically, in the long run, it's better to start Barbarian for the extra 4 HP, right? Even though it makes more sense storywise to start Oracle.
Since this is my first time in Pathfinder, let me ask: what is generally better: 1 Hit Point or 1 Skill Point? It seems to me like an almost inconsequential choice. Actually, which of these: 3 Hit Points vs. 3 Skill Points vs. +1 to saves vs. magic?
Does the Lore Revelation that lets me swap Cha for Dex for AC and Reflex seem like the best choice? It does to me, but I just wanted to double check--I'm really not sold on any particular Mystery, though Lore is at least somewhat thematic.
So, for Rage Powers, I know my first few are set: Superstitious-> Witch Hunter -> Spell Sunder. After that, though, what are some good choices, keeping in mind I'll be able to turn rage on and off at will starting at 9th level (Barbarian 8/Oracle 1)?
Come and Get Me seems like an automatic at 12th if I can get Dazing Strike, as mentioned above, but there's two to pick in between. I have to admit, I also like the "middle finger" of Unexpected Strike, especially given that when I get it, I can cycle Rage to repeatedly flip them off with it. I was attracted to Eater of Magic as well, but was not sure if it was worthwhile, considering my save vs. Magic could end up so high, I'm unlikely to fail in the first place.
I certainly like the Natural AC bonus from Beast Totem, and Pounce is obviously always nice, but I would have a hard time reconciling an animal totem that fits the concept of Mage Hunter. Plus, the claws would basically be wasted.
I don't think I like Reckless Abandon--I know it's powerful, but I'm a "defense first" guy for the most part. I could really only see using it in combination with Robilar's-er, I mean Come and Gambit--oops, Get It.
Strength Surge is a good fit for landing that Spell Sunder, I like it. But is it good enough to take before the others above? Or should I wait for Barbarian 14? Is it worth taking a feat to get it?
Speaking of feats, I know I'm looking at the Power Attack line, primarily. Cleave seems awesome now, is it actually? Is Weapon Focus really worth it? If it is, which first--Power Attack or Weapon Focus?
Are there other Lore revelations or Rage Powers that are worth taking a feat to get?
Should I go for the Sunder line of feats? Think I could use Greater Sunder to deal damage to a mage after Sundering their spell buffs? Is Sunder a good thing to do in general otherwise? Doesn't it mostly just destroy our potential loot or can it be salvaged?
Is there another maneuver I should try and be good at and take feats for? Trip? Bullrush? If I'm not mistaken, Greater Trip makes them provoke when they fall, but doesn't specify that they don't provoke from you--can you hit them on the way down? Does that not make it a pretty ridiculous combo with that feat that lets you trip on a crit (I plan on using an 18-20 threat weapon and obviously take Improved Crit)?
I just realized that in my plan, I talk about Come and Get It and dumping Dex. I don't think I can do both, since I would essentially need Combat Reflexes for Come and Get It to pay off. Now I am not sure what to do at all:
Dump Dex and use Charisma for AC/Reflex and have a bonus to some useful skills (notably UMD), or continue dumping Charisma (as long as I have enough to cast my level 1 Oracle spells) and keep Dex up to make way for Combat Reflexes and Come and Get It?
I want to build a mage-killing specialist for a potential upcoming game. I am pretty sure anything that's in the "prd" will fly, but I am concerned about bringing in non-core stuff, even from Paizo (so I'm going to avoid things like Dervish Dance, etc. Edit: totally mention stuff like that and the source of it so I can petition, but it's not a guarantee).
How should I go about this?
Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder look too amazing to ignore, but there has to be more nuance to this than just taking Superstitious, Witch Hunter, Spell Sunder, Disruptive, and Spellbreaker as Rage Powers, doesn't there?
Of course, I have to admit, I don't really care for the aesthetics of a Barbarian--I don't want to be a wild "AM HATE MAGE" or anything, I'd rather my hatred for magic be more academic. I'd like to be able to identify spells and whatnot, so losing the ability to make Spellcraft checks while raging would be problematic. Is my only option the weird "Urban Barbarian?"
Is there any way I could do this as a Fighter instead? As a Ranger? There used to be a Favored Enemy: Mages option in 3.5...
Or is the best anti-mage, unfortunately, another caster of some sort? I'd like to avoid casting if at all possible, and I'd like to be a competant melee fighter when not fighting mages, but if it's really the best magekiller, I'll at least consider it no matter what it is.
I was very good at optimizing 3.5 back in the day, but I've only been exposed to Pathfinder for about a week, and at the moment, only through the prd. There's plenty I'm likely to miss, which is why I am asking here. For example, I'm especially bad with magic items that might help, since I historically never used magic items in my games.
Inquisitor with firearms. This build is for a party or is some mental exercise?
This build is for a party or is some mental exercise?
A little of both, I suppose? It is for a game at my local game store. I have never played with the GM (it's one of the store's owners), though, and I don't know if he has houserules or what his attribute generation is, or who any of the other players are, etc.
I've been assuming he'll run some adventure path, but I really don't know.
So, it's sort of a theoretical build that needs to be kept at least slightly amorphous for an actual game that will happen in the future and might mess up any or all of my plans.
Some specific questions/issues, if that helps people help me:
Edit: Before I start, I have no interest in RAGELANCEPOUNCING. I don't want to be mounted, and while I might be convinced, I'm not automatically gravitating towards Pounce at all, simply because of the claws as an entry requirement.
I think I've grown to realize that dumping Dexterity in favor of Charisma is probably not the best plan.
I don't need to raise and Spell DCs--my level 1 oracle spells are most certainly best spent on buffs/healing/utility and other non-Charisma dependent things, so the only thing Charisma gives me over Dexterity is a bonus to certain skills, notably UMD. However, just getting UMD as a class skill instead would almost certainly make up the difference if not moreso (assuming a +2 or +3 Charisma mod).
Further, a lot of combat-centric buffs and items raise Dexterity, and I realized that my Urban Barbarian's Focused Rage can be used to add to Dexterity (and obviously not Charisma). So, if I need it, in a pinch, I can become a decent Archer and/or raise my AC/Reflex/Initiative for a critical fight. So, yeah, I think the Sidestep Revelation is probably not my best choice.
At the moment, I think that my best Oracle Mystery is actually Spellscarred, if I can swing it with this GM--Null Magic gives a +2 Insight bonus to saves vs. Magic--combined with Superstition and Human Favored Class levels being pumped into that, I'd be shocked if I every fail to save against a spell. I could still be hit by Touch spells, though, so I think I'll be looking at grabbing Ghost Rager at some point (it's good for things other than just incorporeal!). Oh, and Spellscarred fits thematically and puts Knowledge(Arcana) and UMD on my class list.
If I can't swing Spellscarred with the GM, since it's not "core," what better option is out there?
So, that leaves a few tough decisions:
Invulnerable Rager vs. Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge
Unlike a typical barbarian, I won't necessarily have dumped defenses, so I think it's a difficult decision. I mean, ultimately, it's only 5 more DR overall. I don't know, I'm leaning Invulnerable, but being practically immune to sneak attacks and preventing getting caught flat-footed by touch spells seems pretty damn good.
How should I buy attributes for this sort of thing? I'm used to big point buys or just assigned arrays (which have always included an 18), so I'm not super experienced with these lower powered sets. I was thinking, for 15/20 Point buy (I don't know what's normal for this sort of thing):
Strength 15/16 (bumped to 17/18 with Human stat)
Constitution 14/14
Dexterity 13/14
Intelligence 10/10
Wisdom 9/8
Charisma 11/12 (to cast level 1 Oracle spells)
I know Wisdom is a "better" stat than Int, but I'd rather have more skills, and I don't think the -1 is such a big deal that it should override personal preference.
Now, about feats, I know I'll be ultimately taking (though have no idea of the order):
Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Sunder (for Spell Sunder), Improved Critical (I want to use an 18-20 crit weapon if possible--Falchion or No-Dachi look good) and probably a lot of Extra Rage Powers.
Is the rest of the Power Attack tree useful? Furious Focus and Cleave look great on paper, but are they?
Are there other things I'm ignoring? Is Improved/Greater Trip awesome enough that it's worth getting the 13 Int and Combat Expertise (because I would not mind the extra skill point)?
Exactly how many of my early feats do you think I'll ultimately end up spending on Rage Powers?
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Tetori monk is the best mage slayer there is.
Abundant step (dimension door) right beside the mage, grapple and pummel. There is nothing the mage can do.
First, Tetori monks give up abundant step to gain inescapable grasp, so that's out. Second, even if you could use it, abundant step duplicates dimension door, which states, " After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn." So the mage would simply five-foot step and do whatever he wanted to the monk.
EDIT: Arguably, the mage wouldn't even need to five-foot step away to attack the monk; a harsh GM could easily rule that 'can't take any other actions' extended to free and immediate actions, as well as AoOs.