A t-rex is too big to wildshape into. The Beast Shape spells (which wildshape work off of) stop at Huge animals. A t-rex is gargantuan.
I would just take the form of an allosaurus and just say its a tyrannosaurus. A normal druid can do that at 8th level, and a saurian shaman can do it at 6th level.
Considering Paizo, and some of its staff, I am both surprised and disappointed that there is no way to wild shape into a t-rex. In fact, I don't even think there's a spell that can do it. How could they pass that one up?
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I think they wanted to put a limit on druids that 3.5 did not.
Considering Paizo, and some of its staff, I am both surprised and disappointed that there is no way to wild shape into a t-rex. In fact, I don't even think there's a spell that can do it. How could they pass that one up?
Oh, they could easily pass it up, by virtue of the experiences that came out of 3.5. Druids were ridiculously OP in 3.5, and Paizo (read: Jason Bulmahn) knew that they had to be brought back into line, for Pathfinder.
In 3.5, druids could get colossal wildshape and gargantuan wildshape as feats, which, combined with the fact that the druid replaced his own physical ability scores, with those of the creature he was wildshaping into, it got ridiculous. All you had to do was size up whatever the DM threw at you, and pick the animal/plant/elemental wildshape that would counter it. Druids were able to be better tanks than tanks.
As it is now, wildshape is somewhat weak for physical combat, unless you tailor a build specifically around wildshape, and disregard spellcasting. Treantmonk did a great guide, with both a physical wildshape build, as well as a flying nuker build, and the flying nuker is the better build, especially at higher levels.
TL;DR, James Jacobs was sent home on purpose, the day they wrote the rules for wildshape. He still hasn't forgiven the rest of the staff.
IMO, they nerfed wild shape a little too much. I agree the 3.5 version was very (and perhaps too) powerful, but the PF version is less exciting (a Large form always grants +4 strength, and -2 dexterity, regardless of if the form has STR 12, DEX 18 or STR 24, DEX 6) and features more page-flipping (needing to compare the chart of abilities to each creature) for less "punch", for lack of a better word.
I was creating an NPC druid, and discovered that wild shape felt pretty boring now, especially since the options are fairly clear cut as far as which are best. For instance, if you can become a large feline, there's no reason not to become a Dire Tiger, as it's strictly better than Tiger, Dire Lion, and Lion. And yet, the difference between the four forms is pretty much limited to the damage dice of their natural attacks.
I'm not sure how to keep wild shape more or less balanced while at the same time having more difference between forms, but I prefer the 3.5 version to the current incarnation.
I feel there's room for a Beast Shape V, or even VI or VII, whether or not you allow wild shape (or shapechange) to access those forms.
I don't see the need to disallow polymorphing into a t-rex, or a bullette, or even (gasp) a hydra ever in the game.
I suppose Polymorph Any Object could get you into t-rex form. I think. But does that take away your mental stats? I can't remember ...
Edit: No, Polymorph Any Object doesn't allow t-rex form. It uses greater polymorph to determine allowable forms.
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I tend to agree, Are. I'm playing a 17th level druid, and the only reason I use wild shape is to pop into air elemental form for battlefield nuking, or earth elem form for grappling/sneak attack prevention. I haven't found any forms that I'd find useful to fight with. Even with epic point buy, and a belt of physical perfection +6, my druid has a whopping +15 to hit in fire elem form. Wowzers.
As for how to balance it, two different paths popped into my head (not bothering to think too much on it, as my brain is fried from this week at work):
Option A) Add the following [Wild] feats ([Wild] being defined as having the wild shape class feature):
Extraordinary Wild Shape: Gain all (Ex) defensive abilities of the creature you wild shape into.
Improved Extraordinary Wild Shape: Gain all (Ex) abilities of the creature you wild shape into (including offensive and defensive). Requires Extraordinary Wild Shape.
[Wild] Colossal Wild Shape: You can wild shape into a colossal creature of any creature type you can wild shape into. Requires BAB +14.
[Wild] Gargantuan Wild Shape: You can wild shape into a gargantuan creature of any creature type you can wild shape into. Requires BAB +17.
Option B) If these are too powerful, change to Inquisitor spell progression and/or remove spontaneous casting.
why is it easier to qualify for colossal wild shape than gargantuan?
Because nobody expects the Gargantuan Inquisition.
Either that, or I'm tired and those should be reversed.
Just wild shape into a t-rex of the appropriate size. You just turn into a 'young' one. Problem solved.
Just wild shape into a t-rex of the appropriate size. You just turn into a 'young' one. Problem solved.
You can't do that. Wild Shape works as the appropriate spell, and you can not use templates with polymorph spells.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
Okay, the fact there is a Young Template messes up what I was trying to say.
Whild Shape into a Medium T-Rex. You get whatever the spell says you get.
There is no medium t-rex. As far as the rules are concerned, all t-rexes are gargantuan, as that is what a generic t-rex is. Polymorph spells can only turn you into generic versions of a monster (as in, whatever the stat block in the Bestiary says).
I tend to agree, Are. I'm playing a 17th level druid, and the only reason I use wild shape is to pop into air elemental form for battlefield nuking, or earth elem form for grappling/sneak attack prevention. I haven't found any forms that I'd find useful to fight with. Even with epic point buy, and a belt of physical perfection +6, my druid has a whopping +15 to hit in fire elem form. Wowzers.
As for how to balance it, two different paths popped into my head (not bothering to think too much on it, as my brain is fried from this week at work):
Option A) Add the following [Wild] feats ([Wild] being defined as having the wild shape class feature):
Extraordinary Wild Shape: Gain all (Ex) defensive abilities of the creature you wild shape into.
Improved Extraordinary Wild Shape: Gain all (Ex) abilities of the creature you wild shape into (including offensive and defensive). Requires Extraordinary Wild Shape.
[Wild] Colossal Wild Shape: You can wild shape into a colossal creature of any creature type you can wild shape into. Requires BAB +14.
[Wild] Gargantuan Wild Shape: You can wild shape into a gargantuan creature of any creature type you can wild shape into. Requires BAB +17.
Option B) If these are too powerful, change to Inquisitor spell progression and/or remove spontaneous casting.
If you have 25 point buy, and a melee focused druid you should have better than a +15 to hit in wildshape.
A 17th level druid has a BAB of +12. If you start with a str score of 14, and then add belt of physical perfection that is +6 so you are at an +18 which is 3 higher than you claim you have before you wildshape, and I make any other modifications. I am thinking you focused mostly on wisdom, and ignored strength. The way druids work now is that if you want to use wildshape to go into melee you must initially put some ability points in strength at character creation.
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Allosaurus is better anyway, because you can get five attacks on a charge (pounce/rake) and you don't get swallow whole. And even if you did, by the time you get to that high a level you don't want to swallow your enemies whole anyway. They might not die from it.
Allosaurus is better anyway, because you can get five attacks on a charge (pounce/rake) and you don't get swallow whole. And even if you did, by the time you get to that high a level you don't want to swallow your enemies whole anyway. They might not die from it.
I was thinking about how painful it would be to swallow a marilith(CR 17), and having her destroy your stomach. She probably would not even try to escape. :)
I was thinking about how painful it would be to swallow a marilith(CR 17), and having her destroy your stomach. She probably would not even try to escape. :)Allosaurus is better anyway, because you can get five attacks on a charge (pounce/rake) and you don't get swallow whole. And even if you did, by the time you get to that high a level you don't want to swallow your enemies whole anyway. They might not die from it.
Not to mention that there are some monsters you just do not want to bite, much less swallow...invariably unwashed ogres and orcs, for example, or oozes...
There is no medium t-rex. As far as the rules are concerned, all t-rexes are gargantuan, as that is what a generic t-rex is. Polymorph spells can only turn you into generic versions of a monster (as in, whatever the stat block in the Bestiary says).
But there's both a medium and large sized Tyrannosaurus amongst the animal companion list: Tyrannosaurus
So why wouldn't it be possible to change into one of those two? They obviously exist, else you couldn't have them as an animal companion either. They are still creatures of the animal type, so according to Beast Shape you should be able to change into them since they are of the animal type and they are medium/large.
Corodix: I wondered the same thing. This is where the difference between RAW with what is available in the book and using common sense and just allowing the Young template comes into play.
From a power standpoint this is not overly powerful. And like beej67 said the Allosaurus is better anyway. And since it looks so similar that would probably be the easiest bet rules wise. Plus it doesn't involve changing anything, it is there already. Just reflavor it and say its "a friggen T-Rex, man!!" Chances are most people wont know the difference when they see it anyway.
If you have 25 point buy, and a melee focused druid you should have better than a +15 to hit in wildshape.
A 17th level druid has a BAB of +12. If you start with a str score of 14, and then add belt of physical perfection that is +6 so you are at an +18 which is 3 higher than you claim you have before you wildshape, and I make any other modifications. I am thinking you focused mostly on wisdom, and ignored strength. The way druids work now is that if you want to use wildshape to go into melee you must initially put some ability points in strength at character creation.
Yar, I went for the caster build. I saw pretty quick that you couldn't pull the shenanigans of 3.5. :)
Let me run through the math, just to see if I made another dyslexic mistake:
+ 13 (BAB for Drd 16/Ftr 1)
+ 4 Str (Modified Str of 18)
- 2 Size (Huge Fire Elem)
+ 0 Str (Bupkis for Elem Body IV for Fire Elem)
I'm coming up with a +15 to hit as a huge fire elem. My best hit bonus is as an earth elem, at +19 slam (or +20 if my opponent is also touching the ground).
Certainly not bad for a full casting class, but also nothing amazing, and certainly nothing like it was in 3.5.
From personal experience I can tell you that you can make a very effective front liner druid in Pathfinder. My son is playing a Barbarian 1/Druid 8 right now and easily has the highest damage out put in the party and can take a beating. He typically turns into an angry monkey (Dire Ape) and clobbers the crap out of baddies with his sizing greatclub while wearing his wild rhino hide armor. His current attack bonus when fully buffed is 16 (7BAB +9 Str +1 magic). With his Large size and the Lunge feat it makes him a varitable force to be reckoned with.
His Str when fully buffed is: 18 +2 enhancement bonus +4 size bonus +4 rage = 28 Str.
His AC with typical buffs is: 10 +4 armor +1 dex -1 size -2 rage +4 natural +3 Barkskin = 20. So he isn't really an AC tank but it isn't horrible either. He can typically kill stuff before it gets to him with his massive reach. And with toughness, a 16 Con and rage he is fairly survivable too.
Yeah, I noticed in last night's session that I'm not built for high damage output, unless I'm given a significant ramp-up time (sunbeam, creeping doom, summoned critters, call lightning, etc.
I am, however, built for survivability. Between my 41 AC in air elemental form, and my jacked-up saves, I'm winding up not being hit, but then being the mobile triage for the cleric that just got dropped to -16 hp in two rounds.
I like the idea of a barbarian-based druid front-liner, though. :)
Title really says it all. I'm looking to start a saurian shaman and was fairly disappointed that the T-Rex seemed outta reach to wild shape into. Am i missing something, or is there some rule that I may be missing?
Turn into a smaller T-Rex.
If you wild shaped into a Large T-Rex, you would have natural attacks and such based on this size. Their mechanical benefits are based on the spell itself, beyond their natural attacks which are size-based.
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I tend to agree, Are. I'm playing a 17th level druid, and the only reason I use wild shape is to pop into air elemental form for battlefield nuking, or earth elem form for grappling/sneak attack prevention. I haven't found any forms that I'd find useful to fight with. Even with epic point buy, and a belt of physical perfection +6, my druid has a whopping +15 to hit in fire elem form. Wowzers.
As for how to balance it, two different paths popped into my head (not bothering to think too much on it, as my brain is fried from this week at work):
Option A) Add the following [Wild] feats ([Wild] being defined as having the wild shape class feature):
Extraordinary Wild Shape: Gain all (Ex) defensive abilities of the creature you wild shape into.
Improved Extraordinary Wild Shape: Gain all (Ex) abilities of the creature you wild shape into (including offensive and defensive). Requires Extraordinary Wild Shape.
[Wild] Colossal Wild Shape: You can wild shape into a colossal creature of any creature type you can wild shape into. Requires BAB +14.
[Wild] Gargantuan Wild Shape: You can wild shape into a gargantuan creature of any creature type you can wild shape into. Requires BAB +17.
Option B) If these are too powerful, change to Inquisitor spell progression and/or remove spontaneous casting.
in 3.5, feats that made you larger than huge were epic 21+ feats
3.5 feat:
Gargantuan Wild Shape [Wild][Epic]
Prerequisite
Ability to wild shape into a Huge animal.
Benefit
The character can use your wild shape to take the shape of a Gargantuan animal.
Normal
Without this feat, a character cannot wild shape into an animal greater than Huge size.
Sure, but in 3.5, wild shape also gave you the base physical abilities of the creature you wild shaped into, instead of the way Pathfinder does it. 3.5 also gave you every single (Ex) ability of the creature you wild shaped into.
With the changes to how Pathfinder does wild shape, I don't see any need for those feats to be Epic, if a GM were to allow them.
Animal Soul + Animal Growth == Gargantuan. + Strong jaw's language of double damage on all your natural attacks instead +VS == Death on a STEEEEEEEEEEICK
Too bad not PFS legal
Yeah, Druids are still crazy strong because of magic and wildshape, but they actually require some investment to be true martial threats.
"Balanced" in that they're still 9th level casters that can be true martial threats.
1.) Animal Soul was added to Pathfinder long after this thread started.
2.) Archaeik is correct. Animal Growth specifically says:
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
3.) Powerful Shape gets you some of the benefits of being larger, but not all. The Mythic version allows some additional benefits but still not an actual size increase, as it specifically says to use the quick rebuild rules.
I'd love to see a feat or archetype that covered this as I'm both a big druid and dinosaur fan. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the only way to become gargantuan in Pathfinder is to be a synthesist summoner with both size evolutions, then casting enlarge person. Not mentioning the fact that most DMs don't allow that anyway.
To be fair, the carrying capacity would be pretty sweet for carrying your team into battle, and the increased reach is also nothing to sneeze at.
Can a druid-T. rex kill this undead thread?
One could always just use the stats of an allosaurus and say it's a smaller T. rex.
Why do you want Gargantuan so bad? It doesn't make you hit that much harder and you have more penalties.
I think it has more to do with the concept than the mechanics really. If someone wants to turn into a big dinosaur and mess stuff up, Jurassic Park (at least the first one) showed us that the T-rex is the poster dinosaur for that. Its iconic. That being said, reflavouring an Allosaurus fits the bill for that as Baha-who and other mentioned.
For me personally, gargantuan is more about the fact that its cool to be so giant vs the actual gameplay advantages.
This falls under the wide umbrella of "Can I turn into a big/little version of something?"
Such as the Roc. Can I turn into a huge Roc? Otherwise the only flying bird you can do is a small eagle.
It appears to be intended that you can only turn into the generic bestiary version of creatures, unless you have some special ability that says otherwise, even if the rulebook doesn't make this clear. Otherwise this FAQ wouldn't be needed:
Druid, Eagle Shaman: How can I take the form of a roc if a roc is Gargantuan and the maximum size I can reach with wild shape is Huge?
The lack of suitable giant bird stat blocks in official Paizo products hinders the rules options for this archetype.
To remedy this problem, an eagle shaman druid can use wild shape to take the form of a Medium eagle (as if applying the giant creature simple template to a Small eagle), and can use wild shape to take the form of a Huge roc (as if applying the young creature simple template to a Gargantuan roc). Abilities of the assumed form are determined by which beast shape spell the wild shape ability functions as, as determined by the eagle shaman's effective druid level.
This ruling only applies to the eagle shaman, not any other kind of animal shaman archetype.
If you could turn into an animal companion version, then turning into a roc wouldn't have been a problem.
My question is should a T-rex be gargantuan? I mean their big but I didn't think they were THAT big.
They certainly shouldn't be able to swallow a triceratops whole.
I think they have to be viewed as fantasy-world monsters, not accurately rendered earth creatures.
My question is should a T-rex be gargantuan? I mean their big but I didn't think they were THAT big.
To borrow from Wikipedia:
The most complete specimen measures up to 12.3 m (40 ft) in length,[4] up to 3.66 meters (12 ft) tall at the hips,[5] and according to most modern estimates 8.4 metric tons (9.3 short tons) to 14 metric tons (15.4 short tons) in weight.
Gargantuan size is from 32 to 64 feet long, and from 16 to 125 tons. So they squarely fit in the category based on length, but fall short of it based on weight.
so its kind of greyish. Probably could of went either way. aside form the whole swallow trike whole thing
However, if I remember right, several of the 3.5 D&D dinosaurs were errated because they were too large. I think the t-rex was one of them.
Edit: Nope, just the deinonychus and megaraptor. The t-rex is Huge in the D&D SRD, so it looks like Pathfinder intentionally scaled it up. The D&D t-rex also said its Swallow Whole ability only worked on creatures 2 sizes or smaller than it, not the standard 1 size smaller. Also dropped in Pathfinder (which would have prevented their bigger t-rex from swallowing a triceratops).
Golarion rex's are just bigger I guess.
My question is should a T-rex be gargantuan? I mean their big but I didn't think they were THAT big.To borrow from Wikipedia:
The most complete specimen measures up to 12.3 m (40 ft) in length,[4] up to 3.66 meters (12 ft) tall at the hips,[5] and according to most modern estimates 8.4 metric tons (9.3 short tons) to 14 metric tons (15.4 short tons) in weight.Gargantuan size is from 32 to 64 feet long, and from 16 to 125 tons. So they squarely fit in the category based on length, but fall short of it based on weight.
That's an old 3.5 guideline that honestly the game didn't even follow often. There are a number of gargantuan monsters that exceed the 64ft. length, including the 85' long Brachiosaurus.
Golarion rex's are just bigger I guess.
I guess you could just say that it's 40' length is just its body length not including the tail, since sometimes the description notes that a creature's overall length is "from head to tail" or mentions a tail adding additional length. Sounds like a stretch, but you got to explain how it's able to swallow killer whales whole somehow, right?
Still weird that it mentions only length when it's meant to be a height based monster, as implied by its space and reach.
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There are medium size T-Rexs under animal companions so you could become one of those.
No, you can't. That is not the normal form of the creature. You must become a totally normal form of the creature. The FAQ Matthew Downie posted implies differently - if companion forms were possible, it wouldn't be needed.
Why are we still discussing this? It was covered almost 6 years ago, then again 2.5 years ago when resurrected the first time.