numbers
I wouldn't count heighten spell as giving a "set numerical bonus" to a spell. It allows a caster to prepare it as a higher level spell. To me that isn't set, numerical, or a bonus ;)
I presented in a difficult format let me try again:
Color spray:
Spell perfection Heighten spell for +8 -- if a set bonus then spell perfection will double the bonus to DC which if such a stretch is allowed would give a +16. This also means that the heighten spell doesn't hurt what else I can put on the spell since spell perfection is covering heighten spell as my one free metamagic feat.
Then for actual metamagic on color spray:
Focus spell (+1 spell level)
Quicken spell (+4 spell level)
Persistent spell (+2 spell level)
Which gives a final spell level of 8th.
The biggest stress is claiming the DC increase from spell perfection on the DC increase from heighten spell.
Without that the DC drops.
So if we were to run it the way I'm currently showing it would be:
10
+1 starting spell level
+1 racial
+8 heighten spell (covered with the 1 metamagic allowed for free from spell perfection) (20)
+2 greater spell focus
+2 focus spell (metamagic!)
+15 charisma modifier (39)
+2 eldritch heritage (41)
Spell perfection on the stuff that isn't sketchy:
+2 greater spell focus
+2 focus spell (metamagic!)
Current total 45 with reroll for worse choice.
Spell perfection on the sketch stuff:
+8 heighten spell increased by spell perfection
+2 eldritch heritage
Sketchy total 55 with reroll for worse choice.
Now with some finagling and multiclassing I know I can get the base save throw DC much higher simply by hitting rage prophet and adding on my Con while raging with urban rager, but I'm trying to stick to the easy stuff for now.
AM MYSTIC THEURGE has a Magical Knack and an Ioun stone that boosts caster level, one of his two casty classes is = to his level. And Crafting is very Spellcraft dependent, its possible to overcome allot with high spellcraft.Thats AM MYSTIC THEURGE's plan.I just figured THE way for a caster that wishes to survive the AM party.
Be the guy on retainer crafting items and making potions for them. Even doing the permancy spells.
Probably a sorcerer to have a really high Bluff and Diplomacy.
What says you AM BARBARIAN? Would you find it in your heart to let one casty survive since he's really useful?
Diplomacy:
1d20+20+15Ah, but his caster level isn't good enough to craft the really good stuff.
I think, truth be told I have no idea how crafting actually works, I don't play usually play casty...
So... we both came up with the same idea? Great minds and all that jazz. High five.
Just make sure AM MYSTIC THEURGE has the best Diplomacy and Bluff he can to convince AM BARBARIAN to not kill him.
numbersI wouldn't count heighten spell as giving a "set numerical bonus" to a spell. It allows a caster to prepare it as a higher level spell. To me that isn't set, numerical, or a bonus ;)
Well I can certainly understand such a position -- That's why I called it a stretch and sketchy and used the bold 'if's like I did. Barring that one specific piece the DC remains at 47 (45 if we do the same for the eldritch heritage feats), with a reroll.
Now that's not automatic fail for AM -- But it is uncomfortably close to being a fail which is something he needs to avoid.
I believe the highest DC I've seen for a spell that really holds up would be from the rage prophet using something like this and urban barbarian add his con bonus onto his save throw DC granting around a total of a DC of 55.
AM MYSTIC THEURGE has a Magical Knack and an Ioun stone that boosts caster level, one of his two casty classes is = to his level. And Crafting is very Spellcraft dependent, its possible to overcome allot with high spellcraft.Thats AM MYSTIC THEURGE's plan.I just figured THE way for a caster that wishes to survive the AM party.
Be the guy on retainer crafting items and making potions for them. Even doing the permancy spells.
Probably a sorcerer to have a really high Bluff and Diplomacy.
What says you AM BARBARIAN? Would you find it in your heart to let one casty survive since he's really useful?
Diplomacy:
1d20+20+15Ah, but his caster level isn't good enough to craft the really good stuff.
I think, truth be told I have no idea how crafting actually works, I don't play usually play casty...So... we both came up with the same idea? Great minds and all that jazz. High five.
Just make sure AM MYSTIC THEURGE has the best Diplomacy and Bluff he can to convince AM BARBARIAN to not kill him.
AM MYSTIC THEURGE is not going to bluff AM BARBARIAN, he wants real genuine friendship with AM BARBARIAN. Real friends do not make skill checks to manipulate each other.
The thing to take away from this is probably 'never give an oracle a full round action within 15 feet of you'
Also, I question if you can heighten a spell 8 levels without changing the level. Heighten only powers based on levels raised.
The thing to take away from this is probably 'never give an oracle a full round action within 15 feet of you'
Also, I question if you can heighten a spell 8 levels without changing the level. Heighten only powers based on levels raised.
It's still raised -- spell perfection lets you do it without paying for it.
It wouldn't bother you if it was the quicken spell that was being used, and it does the exact same thing any other metamagic feat does -- the only limitation on it is that you can't raise the total above 9. Other than that it's a "use one metamagic free card".
Oracle can simply use that card better than most in this case.
But yeah the key is to not give him a chance to get it off, but again if you don't have line of sight (and blind sense isn't enough for that) you can't charge and that is where the real problem is sitting.
AM is fun but he must guarantee first action charge with observed state or he's doomed in some form or fashion (if not this then disjunction, if not disjunction something else of similar results).
The thing to take away from this is probably 'never give an oracle a full round action within 15 feet of you'
Also, I question if you can heighten a spell 8 levels without changing the level. Heighten only powers based on levels raised.
Does the Guardian property not work for AM?
The thing to take away from this is probably 'never give an oracle a full round action within 15 feet of you'
Also, I question if you can heighten a spell 8 levels without changing the level. Heighten only powers based on levels raised.
It's still raised -- spell perfection lets you do it without paying for it.
It wouldn't bother you if it was the quicken spell that was being used, and it does the exact same thing any other metamagic feat does -- the only limitation on it is that you can't raise the total above 9. Other than that it's a "use one metamagic free card".
Oracle can simply use that card better than most in this case.
But yeah the key is to not give him a chance to get it off, but again if you don't have line of sight (and blind sense isn't enough for that) you can't charge and that is where the real problem is sitting.
AM is fun but he must guarantee first action charge with observed state or he's doomed in some form or fashion (if not this then disjunction, if not disjunction something else of similar results).
But a heighten to 9th plus quicken, focus, and the other bits is a 17th total. That definitely raises it above 9th.
But a heighten to 9th plus quicken, focus, and the other bits is a 17th total. That definitely raises it above 9th.
Which is completely legal since the spell perfection takes care of the heighten spell raise.
Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.
The one metamagic feat I choose did not actually change the spell slot I use and didn't go over 9th level by itself.
With spell perfection I can't quicken a sixth level spell.
But I could quicken a fourth level and then maximize and empower it.
Or a third level with maximize empower and intensify.
that at least is how it has been presented to date.
The joy of pretend oracles.
They get one more feat the the rest of the classes, 11 for an oracle(4 for the eldritch line, 2 for spell focus/greater, 4 metamagic feats and 1 for spell perfection) vs 10 for every other class in the game.
Spell Perfection allows them to cast spells with a total modified level above 9.
They can get a 41 in a mental stat. 18 +2 racial +5 leveling +5 tome +6 headband +6 leetness?
But a heighten to 9th plus quicken, focus, and the other bits is a 17th total. That definitely raises it above 9th.Which is completely legal since the spell perfection takes care of the heighten spell raise.
Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell.The one metamagic feat I choose did not actually change the spell slot I use and didn't go over 9th level by itself.
With spell perfection I can't quicken a sixth level spell.
But I could quicken a fourth level and then maximize and empower it.
Or a third level with maximize empower and intensify.
that at least is how it has been presented to date.
Interesting. Got a source to cite on that one? If so, the only remaining question has to do with heighten itself.
It reads that the spell is as hard to cast as a spell of its level, so if it's preparing as a level 2, then it still only counts as a level 2.
Side note, I can follow most of that CHA, but I end up at 39. 20 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 headband + 3 age.
What'd I miss?
The joy of pretend oracles.
They get one more feat the the rest of the classes, 11 for an oracle(4 for the eldritch line, 2 for spell focus/greater, 4 metamagic feats and 1 for spell perfection) vs 10 for every other class in the game.
Spell Perfection allows them to cast spells with a total modified level above 9.
They can get a 41 in a mental stat. 18 +2 racial +5 leveling +5 tome +6 headband +6 leetness?
Actually it's 20+5 level +6 magic +5 tome +3 venerable and then +2 from an insight bonus but yeah if you want to call it leetness I'm down with that. There is a bard/oracle spell specifically that is called Tap Inner Beauty however I misread what it does exactly so we are now back down to 39, which will lower the DC by 1.
3 metamagic feats actually -- originally I was using a metamagic rod -- but I can get an extra feat squeezed into there and honestly all it would take is going human and losing the +1 from being a gnome... which I have other means of getting back.
He asked for input and I'm providing -- currently I'm not even topping out the DC either, like I mentioned before we still have levels to go.
@ Trinam No I don't have citation on this specifically however when the oracle first came out and spell perfection came on line there were several topics where the issue was bandied about without anyone questioning the basic premise that this was what spell perfection allowed you to do.
If you want to put it up to the rules forum it certainly wouldn't hurt my feelings. You are the first that has actually raised the question to my knowledge.
I will be doing so once I get home, as this is certainly worth investigation.
AM BARBARIAN threads: making rules cry for both sides since 2011!
Actually it's 20+5 level +6 magic +5 tome +3 venerable and then +2 from an insight bonus but yeah if you want to call it leetness I'm down with that.
Care to show that stat line using 20 point buy? And what gives the +2 charisma insight bonus?
3 metamagic feats actually -- originally I was using a metamagic rod -- but I can get an extra feat squeezed into there and honestly all it would take is going human and losing the +1 from being a gnome... which I have other means of getting back.
In your posts you've used Focused spell, Heighten spell, Persistent spell and Quicken. That's four. And you've also said you are a gnome.
He asked for input and I'm providing -- currently I'm not even topping out the DC either, like I mentioned before we still have levels to go.
Your DC is pretty off as is, it's questionable if you can even reach the levels you're talking about now, I wouldn't shoot higher.
Actually it's 20+5 level +6 magic +5 tome +3 venerable and then +2 from an insight bonus but yeah if you want to call it leetness I'm down with that.Care to show that stat line using 20 point buy? And what gives the +2 charisma insight bonus?
3 metamagic feats actually -- originally I was using a metamagic rod -- but I can get an extra feat squeezed into there and honestly all it would take is going human and losing the +1 from being a gnome... which I have other means of getting back.In your posts you've used Focused spell, Heighten spell, Persistent spell and Quicken. That's four. And you've also said you are a gnome.
He asked for input and I'm providing -- currently I'm not even topping out the DC either, like I mentioned before we still have levels to go.Your DC is pretty off as is, it's questionable if you can even reach the levels you're talking about now, I wouldn't shoot higher.
1. Look again we've already covered the where the insight bonus came from and what happened to it. As to the stat line it's going to be ugly remember he's taking a -6 to all physical stats however it would probably go something like: str 8 dex 12 con 16 Int 7 Wis 7 Charisma 20 to start with after adjusting for venerable age it would be at str 10 dex 6 con 10 int 10 wis 11 cha 23. Levels will put it to str 10 dex 6 con 10 int 10 wis 11 cha 28. Remember he is a caster at level 20 and there will be wealth to spend so these will probably change after wealth is spent.
2. The original didn't have persistent but most importantly wasn't the entire build or indeed a 'build' -- but that's okay I pointed out that it could have if you didn't go for the heightened and I again didn't need to have the feat since I could have the rod -- which is good enough to use it with the spell. However going gnome was part of the original, again however I never claimed it was a complete build. You don't have to like it you just need to realize it's possible.
3. Nope at most we are currently 1 point off the DC due to the fact the spell I was referencing wasn't correct. A build to actually raise the DC would simply trade out two levels of oracle for 2 levels of urban barbarian and then go rage prophet. At this point we could even skip going to venerable age since we'll be adding the Con of the character to the DC (at that point the -6 for Con from venerable isn't worth the +3 to charisma... being old age might be worth it however).
We would want 7 levels of rage prophet which takes 2 more levels off our casting which would leave the gnome in question with a maximum spell level of 8th. Which provided spell perfection does work the way I believe it does would be enough for what is needed if he has all the feats needed -- if he doesn't again it's not a huge loss since we still have room for a rod of metamagic.
In fact if we instead go with the magical lineage trait we could loss another level of oracle and take a level of say PFS wizard to get the needed feat slot.
There is plenty of wiggle room in the general build the question is can the DC's go over 45 and also have persistent spell, to which the answer is yes.
Ok, so what do you do after you've stunned him, just out of curiosity?
EDIT:- Of course this is making the assumption that you actually get to cast this.
I've already pointed out that Readied actions have to be done just BEFORE the action you wish to interrupt. In other words, you could ready color spray and you'd have to cast it before AM charges. The movement and attack don't count as separate actions so you can't do it in the middle.
Go read both the charge and readied actions in the core rulebook if you don't believe that.
Further I'm finding this unreliable, I agree with 41, if you truly can get your charisma that high, which is a 50% chance.
Could you explain where exactly you are getting round the surprise round?
I looked at tap the beauty, how are you keeping a 1min/level spell on you all the time?
EDIT:- Removed reference too Improved Iron Will, didn't realise it wasn't in the build.
Of course this does bring up another point. This will only work once. So assuming you manage to get past everything I've said you have ONE round to kill AM, then he will close his eyes. Boom your spell is useless. Of course he takes the problems of being blinded, but I'm fairly certain he can still take you down.
I'm running at Person A. You teleport into the middle of the path of my run towards Person A. I'm in the middle of my action and it is therefore not your turn so you CANNOT act. You, being the intervening terrain between myself and Person A gets ran into instead. If I am AM BARBARIAN, this means you get RAGELANCEPOUNCED and then I keep going due to Ride-by Attack until I reach my target. My target doesn't get RAGELANCEPOUNCED, but now he's only 5 feet away from me. Now, you might ask, why don't I get an AoO? Because you are flat footed for showing up in the middle of combat and you can't take AoO if you are flat-footed so no Quicked WoE or anything. You show up, you get RAGELANCEPOUNCED, other casty craps his pants.
Again, I said something about an Evil GM who would make it so you showed up in front of him as he was charging someone else. Perhaps, AM worded his charge as "AM CHARGING NEAREST CASTY" at which point would be you when you teleport in. There is an Order of the Stick comic that would better
...
No. Flat-out no. AM can't change his action in the middle of a charge. And he can't declare a charge that way, and you know it. He's charging someone else; the best he can do is a trample or overrun. Also, if I'm teleporting in, it's my turn. So he can't charge during my turn. Further, if he's charging, I can argue that since he didn't declare the overrun/trample, he has to stop when he gets to me. There's no way your argument makes any sense at all, unless your GM arbitrarily decides that it's going to work that way...and we've already agreed that GM fiat can kill a character.EDIT: Oh, another thing: how many 20th-level casters are there, anyway, for me to be walking into the middle of a fight every time I teleport? I can understand AM being everywhere, that's just a function of his awesomeness. But there simply aren't that many casters in the world (yeah, yeah; because AM has already RAGELANCEPOUNCED them all).
Why not? You're using Wish to do this. You are practically begging any (expletive deleted) GM to do something like this or worse to you. Now, not all GMs will do this but some will. I know I wouldn't....unless you really ticked me off.
Unless wish explicitly states it can do something, don't bother including it in any strategies.
AM only has eater of spells, ze. Didn't bother with IIW.
@ Abraham
Most theoretical wizards have 6 levels of fighter? or do most wizards pick up rapid reload?
And this has what to do with anything?
Either he's a barbarian or he's a bunch of stuff thrown together -- so far the only thing close to an actual build I've seen is a thrown together list of classes that go from barbarian, to oracle, to fighter to rage prophet. So hooray for a mix of classes -- but that's not a barbarian any more.
Besides again looks just like a casty to me and is getting defended just as such which is absolutely funny as all get out.
If it's so easy or even possible put it up and prove your point.
Otherwise you got nothing, and he's just as 'observed' as the highly touted 'god wizard who's prepared for everything.'
Like I said just like a certain wizard I've never seen but heard so much about.
The build is coming into existence and in part this is a discussion on what all needs to or should go into the build.
Many of the points being discussed are things that are in fact things established hundreds of posts ago as going into the build.
Is much of it theorhetical? Well, yes. Much of high level optimization is in fact theory that never gets played out on the table. Thank god.
In a sense AM BABARIAN is "more real" by dint of having things established on him. He is still and always has been Barbarian 20. The other things being tossed out are stray thoughts or discussions on AM BARBARIAN's mount or clarification on whether or not things work one way or another. There is in fact a notebook (unless Trinam is a dirty dirty liar) with a character forming in it. By this point in fact there has been more evidence to AM BARBARIAN's existence than schroedinger's wizard which, you'll note, has only been discussed, never made.
A lack of a sheet does not preclude the notion of speaking about him anymore than it does any other character that is in the making. Which is one of the reasons...
To add to this, I'm currently working with Trinam to input AM into Herolab to hopefully speed things along. No rush as he's probably a busy guy, but I will say that AM is in fact a Barbarian 20.
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CHEESY ORACLE does not fear AM BARBARIAN.
CHEESY ORACLE has got a Cha score of 680, so his spells DC are 325+.
CHEESY ORACLE has a Con score of 130 and 440 racial hit dice, so with more than 28000 hp, he does really fear RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
He is a nature oracle 20. He likes his ability to change his type to animal. He also likes to get intelligence drain. Exploiting the fact, that this combination makes him meet the requirements for awaken, he has spend half his gold on spell components. Maximizing the awaken spells, gives him +3 cha and +2 HD (d10s) each time cast.
CHEESY ORACLE doesn't really want to kill AM BARBARIAN, he is much content with ignoring him.
He might even place all the 220 feats he get from HDs in fleet to get a base speed of 1130 to follow BATTY around.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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With the caveat that I did not write Spell Perfection, nor that I speak with any official weight for Paizo, I can offer my opinion.
Off the top, Heighten Spell doesn't provide a bonus to save DC's. It changes the level of the spell. This was the fundamental flaw in the whole Pun-Pun thing. The Sarrukh could make a BONUS permanent, but Pun-Pun was based on the Sarrukh using 3.5 polymorph, which didn't give a bonus; it changed your physical stats (which a Sarrukh could NOT make permanent; therefore, the entire foundation of Pun-Pun's infinite power was erased by actually following the rules).
An increase is not a bonus. Both an increase and a bonus can make a number larger, but changing a number from 12 to 18 is not the same as still having a number that is 12 with a bonus of +6.
Relevant to this discussion, a 2nd level spell with a +6 modifier to its save DC has a DC of 18 (plus whatever). An 8th level spell with no modifier to its save DC has a DC of 18 (plus whatever). If you heighten a spell, you CHANGE its level. It has no bonus to be doubled.
But a heighten to 9th plus quicken, focus, and the other bits is a 17th total. That definitely raises it above 9th.Which is completely legal since the spell perfection takes care of the heighten spell raise.
Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.The one metamagic feat I choose did not actually change the spell slot I use and didn't go over 9th level by itself.
As I said, I didn't write Spell Perfection, but I think the point you are missing is that the "free metamagic" is not automatic. It is conditional. It is only free "as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level." If it does, it's no longer free because you have violated the condition of its being free.
You cannot add metamagic feats separately to a spell. They are all applied, and then you can choose to one of them to cost +0 instead of its regular cost. Your example adds Heighten, then ignores it, then after doing that, then adds other metamagic afterwards. Spell Perfection doesn't let you do that. What spell are you casting?
Are you casting Heightened to 9th Color Spray? Is the total modified level of that spell 9th or less? Yes, so you get 8 levels of Heighten for free.
Or are you casting Heightened to 9th Quickened Focused Persistent Color Spray? Is the total modified level of that spell 9th or less? No. Because it's over 9th, you DON'T get 8 levels of Heighten for free because you violated the "as long as..." clause.
With Spell Perfection, you absolutely can cast Heightened to 9th Color Spray, which uses a 1st level spell slot. No problem. DC 19 CS, go nuts!
You can also cast Quickened Focused (+2 bonus doubled by SpellPerf) Persistent Color Spray, which uses a 4th level spell slot (if memory serves, ignoring the +4 Qui and paying +2 Per and +1 Foc), with a DC of 15 (save twice to negate) - or could add 1 level of Heighten for a 5th-level slot (DC 16, save twice).
With spell perfection I can't quicken a sixth level spell.
But I could quicken a fourth level and then maximize and empower it.
Or a third level with maximize empower and intensify.
that at least is how it has been presented to date.
I cannot speak to other presentations and I offer no official interpretations, but if you are interested in my opinion I believe you are operating from a flawed interpretation that subverts or ignores the "as long as..." clause by applying the Spell Perfection feat to only part of the spell, rather than the total modified level of the spell. The feat says total, which means everything you add to the spell. Your interpretation requires that it apply to only the partial level of the spell.
Take that for what it's worth.
So much for campin' to get the 1,000th post.
Looks like AM ORACLE just got served.
STUFF
WHERE AM ALLCAPS AND HORRIBLE GRAMMAR? MUST BE NEW GUY. AM SEVERAL POINTS, BARBARIAN GO THROUGH AS APPROPRIATE.
BARBARIAN GENERALLY RAGELANCEPOUNCE WHATEVER LOOK LIKE CASTY. BARBARIAN HAVE VERY DEFINED METHODOLOGY.
MURDER ANYTHING IN LIGHT ARMOR THAT AM NOT CARRYING MONK WEAPON. QUARTERSTAFF NOT COUNT.
ADMITTEDLY, SOME MONKS MAY HAVE GONE SMASH. BARBARIAN NOT TOO SAD ABOUT THIS, MONK SHOULD REALLY AT LEAST CARRY KAMAS. ALSO PROBABLY SMASH ROGUES, BUT ROGUES GENERALLY HIDE IN BUSHES, AND NOBODY CARE ABOUT ROGUES ANYWAYS.
ALTERNATIVELY, BARBARIAN JUST CHARGE. IF ATTACK WORKS, ENEMY AM NOT CASTY. IF BARBARIAN HEAR COMPLAINING ABOUT FAIRNESS AND CHEATING AND TWEAK BUILD, AM CASTY.
CAN DISH OUT; BAD AT TAKING.
BARBARIAN NEVER SMASH COMMONER, AM NOT ATTACK CORNFIELD. SILLY LOGIC.
AS FOR CASTY, CONSIDER: AM WAY MORE MARTIAL THAN CASTY CHARACTERS IN WORLD. MOST HAVE HIGH STR. CASTY MAYBE KILL SOME BEFORE OUT OF SPELLS. THEN DIE..GENIUS THINKING, AS COLLEAGUE CALL IT, NOT THINK AM GOOD IDEA.
ARCANE SIGHT SEE CASTY LEVELS. AM ABLE TO CONFIRM.
BARBARIAN STILL NOT KNOW WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT. BATTY BAT AM BAT. TOOK CASTYS OVER 20 PAGES OF THIS JUST TO KILL 6HD BAT.
IF AM HYPOTHETICAL DIRE BAT PONY DRAGON ROBOT COMBO, AM DEFINITELY WORK FOR BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE, BUT BASIC AM VERY SIMPLE. BARBARIAN AM AWESOME, REGARDLESS OF MOUNT.
...AM REALLY STATING CASTY WANT FORCE AM TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE? THIS SEEMS SILLY, BARBARIAN DO THAT FOR FREE. WHY WASTE STANDARD ACTION?
BARBARIAN VERY MUCH APPRECIATE LOVE, GIVE MUCH HUGS WITH GRAPPLE.
WAIT, THAT AM PROVOKE.
...
AM OK. NOT LOOK LIKE CASTY.
ALSO, 50.
Dibs on AM STRAWMAN, AM THINK OF CHILDREN, and AM HYPERBOLE.
Dibs on AM STRAWMAN, AM THINK OF CHILDREN, and AM HYPERBOLE.
Fine, but I get AM BATMAN.
Dibs on AM STRAWMAN, AM THINK OF CHILDREN, and AM HYPERBOLE.Fine, but I get AM BATMAN.
Sorry I know it's off topic but...
Just too note, antagonize is far more effective used on a caster than on AM. He has it, he just chooses not too use it because it messes them up something awful.
AM NINJA ALWAYS INVISIBLE, AM NINJA ALWAYS SEE INVISIBLE. AND NINJA HAVE OWN WAY TO FLY. AM NINJA AM SNEAK UP ON SLEEPING CASTY AND SLIT THROAT WITH TWIN WAKAZASHI OF DOOM! CASTY AM DIE SILENTLY BEFORE AM NINJA SNEAK OUT SILENTLY. AM NINJA ALWAYS MIND BLANKED.
Trinam, I would think you have gotten quite a few requests for AM's build...and here is yet another. I would like to say I could offer you some ideas for casty to be a competition against AM, but everything I have thought of so far has been covered here already. I certainly can not expect you will send it, but it would certainly be a highly interesting read and I bet it would make for an interesting conversation with my GM when I ask him I could play it.
If your willing,
AM NINJA DISABLE ALARM, ALARM AM MAGIC TRAP, MAGIC TRAP AM TECHNICALLY TRAP, NINJA AM DISABLE TRAP. BUT EITHER WAY, ALARM REQUIRE VISIBLE TARGET, AM NINJA ALWAYS INVISIBLE, AM NINJA ALWAYS INAUDIBLE, TRAP NO DETECT AM NINJA. CASTY NO WAKEY. CASTY DIE BY AM NINJA TWIN WAKAZASHI. AM NINJA AM WIN INITIATIVE. AM NINJA ALSO HAVE DISPELLING ATTACK.
NINJA AM AUTOMATICALLY NOTICE ALARM BY BEING WITHIN 10 FEET OF OUTER EMENATION, AM NINJA AM USE DISPELLING ATTACK, ALARM DISABLED. AM NINJA AM CARRY +5 KUSARI GAMA FOR THIS EXACT PURPOSE. ALARM NOT GO OFF. ALARM DISPELLED, CASTY NO GET WAKEY.
NINJA AM AUTOMATICALLY NOTICE ALARM BY BEING WITHIN 10 FEET OF OUTER EMENATION, AM NINJA AM USE DISPELLING ATTACK, ALARM DISABLED. AM NINJA AM CARRY +5 KUSARI GAMA FOR THIS EXACT PURPOSE. ALARM NOT GO OFF. ALARM DISPELLED, CASTY NO GET WAKEY.
DISPELLING ATTACK REQUIRE SUCCESSFUL SNEAK ATTACK. WHY NOT JUST DISABLE DEVICE? OR DISPEL MAGIC NORMAL? OR JUST LIKE... DISABLE DEVICE? NINJA HAVE TRAPFINDING, RIGHT?
I cannot speak to other presentations and I offer no official interpretations, but if you are interested in my opinion I believe you are operating from a flawed interpretation that subverts or ignores the "as long as..." clause by applying the Spell Perfection feat to only part of the spell, rather than the total modified level of the spell. The feat says total, which means everything you add to the spell. Your interpretation requires that it apply to only the partial level of the spell.
Take that for what it's worth.
On the question of if heighten spell would be doubled by spell perfection I do think we are all in agreement that it should not work -- like I said it was very sketchy at best but as sure as I am breathing someone else will bring it back up in the future -- I felt it was a position that needed to be highlighted now rather than wait for it after the build is finished.
On spell perfection and mixing in metamagic I appreciate the opinion Jason -- after all this is part of what this thread is about. I can certainly see the logic of what you are suggesting: however I think the premise of the 'not affecting spell level or casting time' as well as the not exceeding spell level 9 is specifically limited only to the metamagic feat added on with spell perfection -- I saw it (and still see it) as an exception clause much like magical lineage -- after all it explicitly doesn't raise the level of the spell in question and I was of the opinion that this was specifically riding on the combination of just the metamagic feat and spell in question. After all it does say the spell and the metamagic feat, not the spell and all adjustments and this metamagic feat. Otherwise its value becomes much (much) more limited, and honestly it doesn't quite jive with anything else that has been presented with spell perfection on the forums to date (indeed I think this is the first time the use of spell perfection in such a way has been questioned).
However I'm happy to put this off until we have a more offical position on the DC of the spell in question.
IF it is indeed limited we can instead gain a high DC like this in other ways, and with much more tedious builds.
I would suggest again that the rage prophet could hit save throw DCs in the high 40s to low 50s with spell perfection heighten spell focus spell and persistent spell relying on a rod of metamagic to quicken the end result. In which case heighten spell would be providing a total increase to DC of +5, focus spell would provide a total of +4 we would have the normal +13 from Charisma (leaving off the aging options) then we would be adding in the Con score bonus (which using the earlier stats I posted started at a 16 -- giving a +6 item and a +4 inherent bonus would put it up to a 26 so a +8 bonus... rage doesn't play into this since you have to use clear mind which eliminates the rage bonus for the round). After all adding in the +4 total from greater spell focus that gives us 11+5+4+13+8+4=45 again, racial bonus for being gnome means a total of a 46 with reroll for worse and quickened.
I'm sure if given time any of us could shenanigan in another couple of points on the DC.
Please note that this is simply an oracle using it too -- There are some new abilities and tactics that could cause an alchemist to really give AM a run for his money I think and I think there are more shenanigans that a wizard could do with some specific feats and spell perfection that could cause other issues as well (I'm thinking of the shadow casting options and elemental spell focus options and perhaps using some evoker fun).
Of course I'm not trying to say this will be an every case scenario or that AM isn't going to cause much contention, but we were asked for things that could crimp his style... and all of this could.
AND SO, ORACLE AM FORCED TO MULTICLASS INTO BARBARIAN IN ORDER TO KEEP UP WITH BARBARIAN.
AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
NINJA AM AUTOMATICALLY NOTICE ALARM BY BEING WITHIN 10 FEET OF OUTER EMENATION, AM NINJA AM USE DISPELLING ATTACK, ALARM DISABLED. AM NINJA AM CARRY +5 KUSARI GAMA FOR THIS EXACT PURPOSE. ALARM NOT GO OFF. ALARM DISPELLED, CASTY NO GET WAKEY.DISPELLING ATTACK REQUIRE SUCCESSFUL SNEAK ATTACK. WHY NOT JUST DISABLE DEVICE? OR DISPEL MAGIC NORMAL? OR JUST LIKE... DISABLE DEVICE? NINJA HAVE TRAPFINDING, RIGHT?
AM NINJA INVISIBLE, AM NINJA NOT BE SEEN BY ALARM, AM NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK ALARM FROM OUTSIDE WITH KUSARI GAMA. AM NINJA CAN TRY 6 TIMES PER ROUND, MUCH BETTER THAN TRAPFINDING. ALARM AM ALWAYS FLAT FOOTED.
AND SO, ORACLE AM FORCED TO MULTICLASS INTO BARBARIAN IN ORDER TO KEEP UP WITH BARBARIAN.
AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
All contingent on how spell perfection works: also -- quiet you, you don't exist yet.
AM NINJA INVISIBLE, AM NINJA NOT BE SEEN BY ALARM, AM NINJA AM SNEAK ATTACK ALARM FROM OUTSIDE WITH KUSARI GAMA. AM NINJA CAN TRY 6 TIMES PER ROUND, MUCH BETTER THAN TRAPFINDING. ALARM AM ALWAYS FLAT FOOTED.why are spells vulnerable to sneak attack?
ALARM FUNCTION AS MAGIC TRAP, AM NINJA ABLE TO SNEAK ATTACK ALARM BECAUSE ALARM AM MAGIC TRAP. TRAP AM ALWAYS FLAT FOOTED, TRAP COUNT AS CONSTRUCT, CONSTRUCT AM SNEAK ATTACKABLE.
DISPELLING ATTACK REQUIRE SUCCESSFUL SNEAK ATTACK. WHY NOT JUST DISABLE DEVICE? OR DISPEL MAGIC NORMAL? OR JUST LIKE... DISABLE DEVICE? NINJA HAVE TRAPFINDING, RIGHT?SILLY AM.
NINJA NOT GET TRAPFINDING. THAT FEATURE BELONG TO ROGUE. ROGUE AND NINJA SIMILAR BUT NOT SAME.
...BARBARIAN THOUGHT NINJA AM JUST ROGUE WITH PR. LIVE AND LEARN.
ALARM FUNCTION AS MAGIC TRAP, AM NINJA ABLE TO SNEAK ATTACK ALARM BECAUSE ALARM AM MAGIC TRAP. TRAP AM ALWAYS FLAT FOOTED, TRAP COUNT AS CONSTRUCT, CONSTRUCT AM SNEAK ATTACKABLE.traps would be objects
OBJECT AM CONSTRUCT, CONSTRUCT AM SNEAK ATTACKABLE. CONSTRUCT AM ARTIFICIAL, OBJECT AM ARTIFICIAL, THUS OBJECT AM CONSTRUCT. IF THAT NOT WORK, NINJA HAVE ALREADY TRADE AWAY POISON USE TO GET BACK TRAPFINDING.