AM LOGIC FALLACY's page

At first I was going to point out all of the hilarious fallacies in NeverNever's posts, but then I realized my head would explode if I actually tried to break down every single thing he's doing wrong in his interpretation of the RAW. So, instead I'll just simplify it to this: "Come on guys! Everyone knows this one sentence I'm harping on is much more RAW than the rest of the paragraph! ITS JUST SO RAW!"

AM LOGIC FALLACY.

That aside, this thread has jumped nearly 200 posts since I checked in yesterday... so now what's the bigger power: AM BARBARIAN or the thread about AM BARBARIAN? The thread seems to be giving him a run for his money.

Edit: Just to reiterate something I said yesterday, my posts here aren't meant to come off as offensive or as any sort of provocation. I'm just being snarky to point out the moments where logic seems to go out of the window. Healthy debates need to keep logic.

Well he's already recruited a synthesist in at least one iteration of him. So in that sense he has already failed.

I agree. This is why I stated before that using the synthesist was a lame concept. If you need a caster to beat another caster, you aren't accomplishing anything. I'd rather see AM be a badass riding an actual animal, not something he thinks is an animal.

And the point is about escalation. Much of what Maddigan is accomplishing doesn't need magic. Sometimes all it takes is time and allies. Things that 20 levels of adventuring can do without the need of caster levels. And it is all based upon the idea that AM BARBARIAN always takes the absolute direct approach. He can choose not to do that and instead take apart the army bit by bit.

Preventing escalation would normally be a sound goal (for instance, neither side should attempt to break WBL because that would go on forever).

The problem here, however, is that AM's stated goal is to beat any and all casters. If the caster is capable of setting up a network via his spell arsenal, that's not escalation. That's being a spellcaster. If AM is to beat all casters, he must be able to deal with this.

Also, no AM BARBARIAN is not omniscient he is however very presumptuous he assumes a lot about casters and part of the reason why Abraham's idea appeals to me is because it removes the presumptions entirely and allows the wizard to function without fear of AM BARBARIAN ever coming near him. Whether or not he kills him is a different matter.

I agree here. Earlier I asked things to basically amount to "what if the caster just wasn't effing obvious about being a caster?" To which, no solid response could be found. Even with Arcane Sight (the numerous problems here aside for a moment), he'd have to spend a separate standard action studying EVERYONE to know for sure. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have this kind of time on his hands. There's a lot of people in the world, after all.

As for adventuring parties? Well none of the wizards proposed have mentioned traveling with a group (except maddigan who has "minions"). Perhaps that's an option they should be considering?

I didn't mention adventuring parties to imply that his opponents could resort to using them. I brought it up to imply that his goal would likely inhibit such adventuring parties -- thus qualifying him for BBEG status. Regardless though, the concept of "acting like a BBEG" isn't really taking away Maddigan's validity; because if it were, then AM would have been invalid ages ago. That's why I called out that part.

Edit:

But then they'd be traveling with martials wouldn't they? ;)

True, but that's not a problem for the casters. AM's goal is to beat all casters; but this does not mean that all casters' goals are to defeat all martials. It's a problem for AM to recruit casters because it goes against his goal; i.e. using a caster to beat a caster.

The casters, on the other hand, don't have this limitation. Not unless someone makes a caster who's goal is to beat all martials... but that's not the point, is it? Not every caster will have this goal. Thus, its not hypocrisy for some casters to have a martial cohort. But, it is hypocrisy for AM to have a caster cohort.

As for adventuring parties, yeah including a whole party would be escalation. But summoned minions and the like are a part of spellcasting -- thus, using those is not escalation.

HEY GUYS. QUICK POLL.

If you were a human, and then got PaO'd into a half-orc, would you then qualify for orc-based feats? If so, would they remain if you ended up a human again?

The real question is why not just take that Heritage (no, not eldritch heritage) feat that humans can get, selecting orc as the heritage. That way you qualify for both human and orc feats without needing Polymorph shenanigans.

The original purpose of AM BARBARIAN is 'I'm bored. Here's this thread. I'm going to do nothing but type in it in allcaps and have a grand old time.'

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Everything else is gravy.

Best post of the whole thread, right here.

After re-reading this prior to hitting "submit," I realized this might sound like provocation. Forgive me if any of my posts come off that way. I'm not here to attack opinions, just to point out logical errors. AM LOGIC FALLACY, ME JOB TO KEEP LOGIC IN DEBATE.

Maddigan wrote:

The only thing I'm trying to show is that a wizard will still beat this build and beat it soundly.

Here's a funny thing.

It doesn't really prove anything in terms of "Casty vs. Barbarian"

Let me explain. I can do everything you just stated with a sufficiently high enough level Expert or Aristocrat. The difference in these scenarios, to me at least, isn't finding out whether or not he'll kill you and make appropriate preparations. Rather it's about how exactly you kill him.

So how do you kill him? Or if you prefer "defeat" him? You find out about him. Now what?

To elaborate further you are basically saying you would take elaborate roleplaying measures to ensure you are aware of every notable character (particularly those out for your blood) within your realm. This is fine but it's working off the assumption that AM BARBARIAN is flying solo and not taking elaborate roleplaying measures to lead AM HORDE. Up until now AM BARBARIAN and the "stupid" wizards have been happy to stick to a generally one on one scenario. By bringing networks and contacts in you're falling into BBEG territory where you set up elaborate traps and ruses only to find yourself standing toe to toe with him on the roof of your astral fortress (also phylactery) with him and his four plucky friends some years later and wonder to yourself "What went wrong?"

Congratulations you are now the sixth book in an adventure path.

There's a huge difference between "I can set up a network because this is what my spell tactics do," and, "I have a horde of people". Not seeing the part where you make his position any less valid. Looks more like "I wanna play tit-for-tat because I can't think of any other way to attack the issue"... AM LOGIC FALLACY. Likewise, if AM ever has to recruit a caster, he's failed. Needing a caster to beat a caster accomplishes nothing.

AM himself is already a BBEG candidate; a somehow omniscient (already BBEG material from this alone) barbarian who slaughters all casters? Doesn't the average adventuring party have casters? Some do, I'm sure. He'd easily be interfering with other adventuring parties (rather often, at that.) So why is this suddenly now a factor that prevents legitimacy?

Please don't make AM look weaker by taking up many illogical defenses for him. He's too badass for that.

Actually, no you can't. The simple act of making "a build" to specifically take on AM BARBARIAN means he wins as a build. This may be heading into logical fallacy territory but think of it this way: AM BARBARIAN is a build designed to take on all castys. If said castys make a build to specifically take him on then we have come full circle by which will also be invalidated because AM BARBARIAN is being designed to take on ALL castys.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the fact that people are putting this much time and effort into trying to kill ONE imaginary Barbarian with magic proves how powerful the build can potentially be even though it isn't complete yet. That means AM wins.

You're correct on one thing. You are, in fact, quickly approaching fallacy. You're making the interesting assumption that he wouldn't already have a build that does this. This type of setup is powerful against... everyone. Not just AM. I've seen similar wizard builds long before AM was introduced. I'm a D&D veteran, and trust me, that wizard build isn't far from the norm that the experienced wizards can pull. He's just playing it smarter than most of the players on these boards (hell, he's doing it better than I usually would cause I'm hella lazy). Likewise, I once again have to ask why is it bad to have a build that stomps barbarians, if its okay to have a build that stomps casters? AM LOGIC FALLACY.

Personally, I'd say the thread just got more interesting. Curious to see if AM can counter such tactics.

Also... still need an answer on how he doesn't sleep, since he can't regain his daily rage rounds without resting; its in the RAW. If he never sleeps, he'll run out of rages. If you want to try saying "rest and sleep aren't the same word" then what makes you think casters need sleep? They regain spells the exact same way a barbarian regains rage, or a bard regains bardic music, or a cleric regains channel energy. By resting.

Additionally, Abraham is doing a pretty good job of pointing out flaws in the issue of AM having permanent Arcane Sight. Those need addressing as well.

As far as I can tell, the majority of caster builds have been constantly flying.

This eliminates concerns about how AM identifies casters and avoids squishing commoners in expensive clothing: the castys are all floating off the ground with no visible means of support.

This is another fallacy. "Majority" and "all" are two very different words, my friend. And even just saying "majority" is an assumption; as that will come down to how the spellcaster chooses to play his/her character. Try not to make your statements so cut and dry.

And also... remind me again why AM doesn't need to sleep? The RAW says he needs 8 hours of rest to regain his rage rounds every day. That's called sleep in layman's terms. If you want to play the "RAW doesn't explicitly say 'sleep'" card, then we can also assume that CASTY never has to sleep since their spell regeneration is worded the same way. Or did I miss something somewhere?

Plus the idea of all these caster walking round with 24 hour mind blank/invisibility rings, earth gliding, and various other methods that, lets be honest, they probably wouldn't have bothered having up before that highly amuses me.

You really think it's that unusual to see casters who take extreme lengths to protect themselves? How absurd. I've seen casters do a ton of things in their daily routine to protect against numerous things because CASTY AM SQUISHY AND NO LIKE GO SMASH. Just because you hadn't thought of it doesn't make it unusual. Does every caster do things like this? Probably not, but some would, and some do. Since AM BARBARIAN's stated goal is to beat any and all CASTY, he needs a way around this.

Besides, if it's fair to assume that AM has permanent arcane sight, then its fair to assume that casters could have this and other permanencies, just on the basis that it would be FAR easier for them. AM LOGIC FALLACY TO GIVE AM BARBARIAN SITUATION ADVANTAGE NOT GIVEN TO OTHERS. Whether or not they choose to exercise this possibility is up to them, though.

I'm still noting the complete lack of means to consistently tell what is and is not a casty in disguise... and considering disguises come as cheap as a hat of disguise or simply buying some full plate in this case (or something that *looks* like full plate) while AM lacks a means of regularly and at a distance detecting magic he's pretty much set up for a continuous fail on his hunt.

Glad someone else is getting it. Like it or not, Arcane Sight won't be the be-all end-all, especially from outside its functional range. AM BARBARIAN NO HAVE TIME TO STANDARD ACTION STUDY EVERYONE. ALSO, "I know who looks like a casty because I say I do" DO NOT WORK. AM LOGIC FALLACY. NEED REAL BACKUP PLAN.

DISPELLING ATTACK REQUIRE SUCCESSFUL SNEAK ATTACK. WHY NOT JUST DISABLE DEVICE? OR DISPEL MAGIC NORMAL? OR JUST LIKE... DISABLE DEVICE? NINJA HAVE TRAPFINDING, RIGHT?

SILLY AM.

NINJA NOT GET TRAPFINDING. THAT FEATURE BELONG TO ROGUE. ROGUE AND NINJA SIMILAR BUT NOT SAME.

WHERE AM ALLCAPS AND HORRIBLE GRAMMAR? MUST BE NEW GUY. AM SEVERAL POINTS, BARBARIAN GO THROUGH AS APPROPRIATE.

AM TOO EFFIN LAZY TO TYPE LIKE THIS ALL TIME. Just did it here and there for emphasis. BUT ME AM TRY TO DO BETTER THIS TIME.

BARBARIAN GENERALLY RAGELANCEPOUNCE WHATEVER LOOK LIKE CASTY. BARBARIAN HAVE VERY DEFINED METHODOLOGY.

AM BARBARIAN SOUNDS LIKE HE SAY, "I know because I say I do." AM LOGIC FALLACY.

MURDER ANYTHING IN LIGHT ARMOR THAT AM NOT CARRYING MONK WEAPON. QUARTERSTAFF NOT COUNT.

And if the caster looks like a commoner? AM KILL LOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE WITH BAD LOGIC BUT THIS FUNNY SO AM ACCEPTING IT.

ADMITTEDLY, SOME MONKS MAY HAVE GONE SMASH. BARBARIAN NOT TOO SAD ABOUT THIS, MONK SHOULD REALLY AT LEAST CARRY KAMAS. ALSO PROBABLY SMASH ROGUES, BUT ROGUES GENERALLY HIDE IN BUSHES, AND NOBODY CARE ABOUT ROGUES ANYWAYS.

ROGUE NOT REAL MAN. REAL MAN AM BARBARIAN. PANSY ROGUE GO SMASH. WHO NEED UNLOCK DOOR? JUST SMASH DOOR LIKE REAL MAN.

ALTERNATIVELY, BARBARIAN JUST CHARGE. IF ATTACK WORKS, ENEMY AM NOT CASTY. IF BARBARIAN HEAR COMPLAINING ABOUT FAIRNESS AND CHEATING AND TWEAK BUILD, AM CASTY.

THIS AM #$%&ING HILARIOUS. ME AM LAUGH HARD.

BARBARIAN NEVER SMASH COMMONER, AM NOT ATTACK CORNFIELD. SILLY LOGIC.

TRAVELER CAN BE AM COMMONER TOO. HOPE HE NOT LOOK CASTY.

AS FOR CASTY, CONSIDER: AM WAY MORE MARTIAL THAN CASTY CHARACTERS IN WORLD. MOST HAVE HIGH STR. CASTY MAYBE KILL SOME BEFORE OUT OF SPELLS. THEN DIE..GENIUS THINKING, AS COLLEAGUE CALL IT, NOT THINK AM GOOD IDEA.

THIS AM ASSUMPTION, NOT FACT. IT AM VERY EASY TO HAVE WORLD FULL OF SQUISHY CASTY. MAYBE THIS WORLD FULL OF COMMONER WITH SPELL-LIKE ABILITY. MAYBE WORLD FULL OF PANSY CASTY EVERYWHERE.

ARCANE SIGHT SEE CASTY LEVELS. AM ABLE TO CONFIRM.

AM GOOD POINT. ME AM FORGET THAT.

BARBARIAN STILL NOT KNOW WHAT AM TALKING ABOUT. BATTY BAT AM BAT. TOOK CASTYS OVER 20 PAGES OF THIS JUST TO KILL 6HD BAT.

ME AM MAKING SURE. RIDING CASTY AM LAME. BARBARIAN MAKE CASTY GO SMASH, NOT RIDE.

IF AM HYPOTHETICAL DIRE BAT PONY DRAGON ROBOT COMBO, AM DEFINITELY WORK FOR BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE, BUT BASIC AM VERY SIMPLE. BARBARIAN AM AWESOME, REGARDLESS OF MOUNT.

LIKE ME SAY BEFORE. REAL MAN BARBARIAN. REAL MAN IS REAL MAN WITHOUT SILLY MOUNT. MOUNT GO SMASH IF THINK OTHERWISE.

...AM REALLY STATING CASTY WANT FORCE AM TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE? THIS SEEMS SILLY, BARBARIAN DO THAT FOR FREE. WHY WASTE STANDARD ACTION?

CASTY MAY HAVE TANK COHORT. TANK COHORT ANTAGONIZE. BARBARIAN ATTACK COHORT AND NOT CASTY. CASTY LIVES ANOTHER ROUND MAYBE.

Well, personally I don't care one way or the other. The entire thing makes me laugh whole-heartedly and inspired the name I'm using. But, I do dislike seeing poor and/or one-sided logic used in debates.

I think AM BARBARIAN is strong enough to not need to be intentionally tossed into scenarios that favor him. Too much of his "all castys die" stuff is based on the premise of him knowing the caster is there already; thus getting RAGELANCEPOUNCE before CASTY knows what's going on. This is all kinds of flawed from the get-go as that's not a fair assumption. Which turns this into AM LOGIC FALLACY. It's odd to me that everyone is comfortable with the concept of a barbarian who is so paranoid that he slaughters all potential casters... yet the idea of having a paranoid caster who slaughters all barbarians (or anyone who looks all muscley and toned as I'm betting super-STR characters would) suddenly becomes unfair? AM FALLACY NO LIKE HYPOCRISY.

I'm curious; even if we assume he has permanent arcane sight (because that's totally gonna happen right?) the limited range on it makes me question how he'd know the presence of every potential caster long before reaching said range. And is this the only means he has of "knowing" who's a caster? What if Schrodinger's Wizard buffed up a random commoner, just because he could? (I've done that in games for S&G's). Would AM slaughter him too? AM BARBARIAN NO LIKE COMMONERS? HOW DARE HE?!

And let's not make any "attack the one who looks like a caster" arguments because that statement is all kinds of stupid. What constitutes "looking like a caster"? Personally I haven't played a single game where our casters "looked" like actual casters, and not just people in traveler's clothing. In essence, my tables have never had Gandalf look-alikes. Just run-of-the-mill looking people who knew how to cast spells, the best hint you might have gotten were the magical auras of their gear (see previous question about Arcane Sight limits). Does he RAGELANCEPOUNCE everyone who isn't in heavy armor? Sounds more like AM CHAOTIC EVIL for all the innocent lives he'd be taking.

What if said caster traveled around with no magic items on him, and no buffs? What if he just relied on other means (supernatural or otherwise) to perceive threats and felt safe looking normal? (Something else I've done in games). How would AM know to kill him? Or would this (ironically clever) caster be the one to slip under his radar? If he still knows who is and isn't a caster by other means, please enlighten me.

Not to mention, what's all this about using Leadership to get a Synthesist mount? I hope that wasn't part of the original build, because that would take the entire concept from AM BADASS to AM USING CRUTCH TO LOOK COOLER. As completely hilarious (and badass) as this is, why is it fair to blatantly have two characters fight against one? Is AM BARBARIAN too scared to hunt CASTY by himself? Let's cut the metagaming crap about him "not knowing" it's a caster he's been riding. If its just a normal animal, that's more logically sound. Otherwise, assume that CASTY has a leadership cohort as well. And if we're including horridly broken things like Antagonize, why can't CASTY's cohort antagonize AM?

Anyways I'm not seeing any way for AM to know 100% that he's approaching a caster without the caster knowing 100% that some hulky badass is eying him with a bloodlust. Arcane Sight won't cut it. In the meantime, I'll forward this hilarious character concept to my buddies. I have a feeling one of them will have a (decidedly weaker) version of AM making a special guest appearance as a boss fight... which would be pretty awesome.