Hey everyone,
I've run into a slight dilemma. I'm currently playing Legacy of Fire campaign, and I'm playing a Sylph Monk of the four wind 3rd/Cleric 1rst of Sarenrae. The other PCs are playing an Alchemist, a Paladin, and a Ninja, and I find that my character is pretty much being over shadowed by rest of the group. I've been a non contributor for the past three encounters. I enjoy role-playing with my character, but she isn’t really built for role-play.
I took the level in cleric, so she could cast create water, endure elements, and some extra healing for the group at 2nd level. It helped then, but now both the Alchemist and the Paladin are way better at healing. Plus, having her being able to identify magic was good, but a NPC that is tagging along with the group (the DM’s PC) can do that better.
The person playing the ninja, choose to play the class instead of a rogue like 10 mins before we started the campaign. Thus, I didn't realize that his character (with her better stats, we like to roll stats) would over shadow me so much.
I'm now not sure of what direction to go with the character. Should I just go cleric and become a support character? Do I just go monk and try to find an area that the ninja can't do better? Any suggestions?
Ask if you can ditch the cleric and go zen archer monk or sohei monk all the way or go for maneuver master
Become a serious flanking buddy at speed with the ninja.
Ask for an inquisitor level instead of cleric: enhanced judgment feat treats you as 3 levels higher(not to exceed character level) for your judgment ability to enhance attack damage or saves coupled with spells like wrath, divine favor etc to augment your damage.
What does `she isn’t really built for role-play` mean?
I assume you think lots of skills is necessary for that?
Ignoring the role-playing potential of characters who aren`t skillful?
Why do you need to be so competitive with the other players?
What is wrong with doing similar things to them, but they are statistically slightly better?
I mean, that you guys rolls stats SHOULD suggest that you are OK with discrepancies, right?
I don`t see a game-balance problem with your build.
Whether you go all-out Monk, or go into Cleric more seems equally workable. (one or the other)
Exactly who else in your group has Stunning Fist?
Besides the Paladin, everybody else probably has pretty crappy Will Saves.
If other characters are doing skill `jobs` routinely better than you, that`s a decent recent to rationalize not putting further ranks into them (since you don`t practice it as much if they do the job) which you can put into other generally useful things. Or keep being decently good at that stuff... whatever.
I would say that you can`t expect 1 level of Cleric to let you be better at healing than even `lesser` healing Classes (who are single-classed). Guess what? There`s lots of other Cleric spells, which you should be memorizing anyways since Cure spells are spontaneously substitutable. Longer term, the main thing you will get out of 1 level of Cleric is the Domain abilities and NON healing usages for 1st level spells.
There are options to allow for greater Cleric/Monk synergy, such as the +1 equivalent weapon enhancement allowing WIS to hit, if that is your highest stat... Also the Feat that allows Flurrying with your Deity`s Favored Weapon. If you are DEX-focused, that could also synergize with the Dervish Dance Feat which allows DEX to DMG. You would have lower damage dice than UAS at high levels, but better crit range (which is more powerful at higher levels... except vs. Elementals and such Crit-Immune creatures ;-) )
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What does `she isn’t really built for role-play` mean?
I assume you think lots of skills is necessary for that?
Ignoring the role-playing potential of characters who aren`t skillful?Why do you need to be so competitive with the other players?
What is wrong with doing similar things to them, but they are statistically slightly better?
I mean, that you guys rolls stats SHOULD suggest that you are OK with discrepancies, right?I don`t see a game-balance problem with your build.
Whether you go all-out Monk, or go into Cleric more seems equally workable. (one or the other)
Exactly who else in your group has Stunning Fist?
Besides the Paladin, everybody else probably has pretty crappy Will Saves.
If other characters are doing skill `jobs` routinely better than you, that`s a decent recent to rationalize not putting further ranks into them (since you don`t practice it as much if they do the job) which you can put into other generally useful things. Or keep being decently good at that stuff... whatever.I would say that you can`t expect 1 level of Cleric to let you be better at healing than even `lesser` healing Classes (who are single-classed). Guess what? There`s lots of other Cleric spells, which you should be memorizing anyways since Cure spells are spontaneously substitutable. Longer term, the main thing you will get out of 1 level of Cleric is the Domain abilities and NON healing usages for 1st level spells.
There are options to allow for greater Cleric/Monk synergy, such as the +1 equivalent weapon enhancement allowing WIS to hit, if that is your highest stat... Also the Feat that allows Flurrying with your Deity`s Favored Weapon. If you are DEX-focused, that could also synergize with the Dervish Dance Feat which allows DEX to DMG. You would have lower damage dice than UAS at high levels, but better crit range (which is more powerful at higher levels... except vs. Elementals and such Crit-Immune creatures ;-) )
It doesn't sound to me like this is about being competitive, as being helpful. The ninja is a better stealth and possibly combatant character. The Alchemist can be a buffer, healer, and boomcaster. The paladin is a healer and melee combatant. No room for a cleric/monk. I would suggest asking for a rewrite into a zen archer if you want to be helpful as there does not seem to be a great long range character.
I agree with the other posters. Your best bet if you want to be helpful is to build your strengths into an area where your teammates have none. You could do this either through levels in a full-arcane class (you have no arcane caster as of now) or by simply focusing on combat maneuvers, allowing you to create a lockdown character.
If you choose the Arcane Route, probably your best bet is to either A) go for Dragon Disciple or B) grab the Wildblood Bloodline that lets you use Wisdom instead of Charisma as your key casting state. Either way, you'll end up with a powerful character who can pull off tricks no one else can (wait until you get access to the Haste spell; your party members will be BEGGING for you to grace them with your splendor!).
If you focus on Monk, grapple and trip tend to be the strong options I see. Greater Trip allows you to keep enemies toppling over themselves in hilarious manners, while grapple can let you all but completely shutdown an enemy spellcaster. Disarm, while underrated, is also quite nasty; as it is a good way to decimate the damage-dealing capacities of your enemy humanoids.
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im assuming you're 4th level total? if so stay monk. at 5th level go cleric. then decided what you want you character to do. if you want to be a melee damage dealing cleric then you would want to go sohei archetype. if you want to be a ranged cleric go zen archer(although sohei is still a good choice for a ranged monk).
i will tell you right now if you go sohei and grab a temple sword with TWF and growth and strength domains you will make the pally feel like hes on the back burner with all of the monk abilities you get, monk feats, spells perday (at 5)and a 10 foot threat range dealing large sized unarmed/temple sword damage. remember that pathfinder clerics dont have to use a diety, you have the option of choosing your domains to taste.
P.S. i almost forgot the knowledge domain would be a massive boon to your character for party support. you get all knowledge skills AND a auto dc 20 knowledge check on a touch attack that can be used on any monster alive or dead... i cant describe how useful that is.
remember that pathfinder clerics dont have to use a diety
except he explictly said they are playing in a Paizo AP,
and GOLARION clerics definitely do need to worhip a deity to gain their powers.
I'm sure I'll be loudly corrected if I'm wrong, but the one area that a monk overshadows a ninja is in the area of Combat Maneuvers. Your flurry ability gives you two chances at stuff like tripping, disarming, and (from the APG) stealing and dirty tricks. No point trying to out-damage your buddies, but you can help them hit more often (or, in the case of disarming/stealing, keep the enemy from hitting as hard.)
You are correct, I was a little scatter brained when I wrote the thread. I agree that going monk, Combat Maneuvers are the way to go for most humanoid encounter. I think I pushed it out of my head because the last few encounters were mostly large or huge monsters that most combat maneuvers wouldn't work on.
I agree with the other posters. Your best bet if you want to be helpful is to build your strengths into an area where your teammates have none. You could do this either through levels in a full-arcane class (you have no arcane caster as of now) or by simply focusing on combat maneuvers, allowing you to create a lockdown character.
If you choose the Arcane Route, probably your best bet is to either A) go for Dragon Disciple or B) grab the Wildblood Bloodline that lets you use Wisdom instead of Charisma as your key casting state. Either way, you'll end up with a powerful character who can pull off tricks no one else can (wait until you get access to the Haste spell; your party members will be BEGGING for you to grace them with your splendor!).
If you focus on Monk, grapple and trip tend to be the strong options I see. Greater Trip allows you to keep enemies toppling over themselves in hilarious manners, while grapple can let you all but completely shutdown an enemy spellcaster. Disarm, while underrated, is also quite nasty; as it is a good way to decimate the damage-dealing capacities of your enemy humanoids.
The Wildblooded archetype with the Celestial bloodline does have a certain appeal to it. It does fit with my character concept. Thanks for the idea.
Please, for your own sake don't multi-class between Sorcerer and Cleric with levels already sacrificed to Monk unless your DM gives you some kind of special permission to jump straight into Mystic Theurge after one level in each.
That would be a bit much. I was thinking of asking my DM if I could replace my cleric lv with sorcerer with the celestial bloodline. That way I can have her believe that she is receiving her powers from her deity but in fact is actually doing herself.
I suspect you problem is the difference is stats. Count it up as point build and if you find you 10+ point different there is your problem. It happens in my games most time when player roll stats. If I find it a problem I usually even out the stats by adding to the lacking player. Seems to fix problems.
Sometime though it's just a bad build. Had a Paladin that really sucked because he took a high wisdom, went sword and shield with a low Dex stat. The character just wasn't working out. So I let the player switch some feats and go two handed weapon instead. Huge difference.
Crusader's Flurry feat from Ultimate Combat. Become a cleric first and just use your dip of monk to power flurrying with a scimitar.
I suspect you problem is the difference is stats. Count it up as point build and if you find you 10+ point different there is your problem. It happens in my games most time when player roll stats. If I find it a problem I usually even out the stats by adding to the lacking player. Seems to fix problems.
Sometime though it's just a bad build. Had a Paladin that really sucked because he took a high wisdom, went sword and shield with a low Dex stat. The character just wasn't working out. So I let the player switch some feats and go two handed weapon instead. Huge difference.
Yeah, there is a huge difference in stats. I'm pretty sure my character probably has the lowest overall, But with that said, they certainly not my lowest. I blame it on my build. I didn't think things threw as much as should have. I think I got too caught up in concept rather that function.
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Crusader's Flurry feat from Ultimate Combat. Become a cleric first and just use your dip of monk to power flurrying with a scimitar.
Quandary said the same thing, and I was thinking that originally, but it costs four feats to use it effectively. Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Dervish Dancer, Crusader's Flurry. When a monk uses flurry of blows, it’s still like TWF in that you alternate attacks. So I would only be getting one attack with the scimitar when flurrying, and a second when ever I get a second base attack. It would be better to just take the Dervish Dancer feat (I already have weapon finesse) and fore go flurry all together until high enough in monk for it to be worth taken.
Your cleric level bab stacks with flurry, you are treated as though your monk bab is equal to your level and you have TWF, you would get two attacks at your level (4). Flurry does not require an off hand weapon, and no weapons you use are considered offhand for strength etc etc
example, monk 2 cleric 2 with 14 strength
attack
scimitar +4 (1d6+2)
or
scimitar +3/+3 (1d6+2)
Your cleric level bab stacks with flurry, you are treated as though your monk bab is equal to your level and you have TWF, you would get two attacks at your level (4). Flurry does not require an off hand weapon, and no weapons you use are considered offhand for strength etc etc
example, monk 2 cleric 2 with 14 strength
attack
scimitar +4 (1d6+2)
or
scimitar +3/+3 (1d6+2)
last I checked, scimitars are not monk weapons.
Crusader's Flurry
Ah, thank you. I haven't looked through Ultimate Combat much yet.
Hmmm... Maybe if I change the Monks archetype from the four winds to either weapon adept or Sohei might make using the scimitar even more viable.
It will work a lot better than what I'm doing now. I still might be able to add some Combat Maneuvers to give some more variation to boot.
Thanks everyone :)
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My suggestion with that combo is to ride monk no further than 6th level, for the ki pool abilities, feats, and unarmed damage. My other thought is to go master of many styles and reap the benefits of multiple styles, such as kirin/serpent, dragon/crane, and turtle/panther.
I would suggest Inquisitor over cleric as well, War, Strength and Travel domains will all be useful to you. U suggest a minimum of 5th level, because, Bane is going to help make up for your lack of bab and monk damage.
Inquisitor compliments monk fairly well in different ways. Zen archer/ Ranged Inquisitor is a mean combo. Inquisitors with the war domain, give monks lot's of options. You can also cheat and give the monk the ability to rage with the rage domain or inquisition.
If you are bent on sticking with cleric though...I'd focus on buff spells and get soem domains with good utility spells. Air, weather, and Travel come to mind. Trickery can be helpful as well.
The biggest thign is to pick your niche and work on being good at that. Roleplay your character, finding their personality should give insight into what feels natural to them.
I wasn't really bent on cleric, but at the time I didn't really read the Inquisitor class before I chose to add a caster class. Now that I look at it class it is a much better fit for a monk. Bane is a very good class feature to have.
I was thinking of a Weapon Adept monk that is able to furry of blows with the scimitar. The Dervish Dancer would capitalize of her high dex bonus and no str bonus, but I would have to go cleric at least one lv at second for that to be possible. But I don't think the group needs another melee damage dealer. so maybe either a zen archer, maneuver master, master of many styles, or even a flowing monk looks like they could fill a nice niche when complemented with the inquisitor class.
Oh decision, decision.
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Sacred Fist is your best hope (3.5). Monk/Clerics just don't really work well in core.
Actually they work quite well (so long as the dip class is monk), depending upon the god you worship.
See Crusader's Flurry from UC.
A single level of cleric, otoh, will eventually be almost completely worthless unless you're really juicing the domain powers.
Actually they work quite well (so long as the dip class is monk), depending upon the god you worship.
See Crusader's Flurry from UC.
A single level of cleric, otoh, will eventually be almost completely worthless unless you're really juicing the domain powers.
Yeah the level would be pretty much worthless down the line. It wasn't worthless at second when I took it. But the real reason was that my monk worships sarenrae, which her favorite weapon is the scimitar, and which enables my character to take Crusader's flurry, and Dervish Dancer feats. She has a 20 Dex, and a 10 Str.
So at 5th lv instead of her flurrying damage being 1d8, her damage would be at 1d6+5 with a crit of 18-20x2. An average damage of 8 instead of 4.add the Weapon adept monk archetype and at seventh lv she would be flurrying with three strikes at 1d6+7 damage per hit (+2 due to weapon specialization) for an average of 10 per hit.
Going strait monk with a non STR built, it would be hard to match that damage.
But then again there is no true caster or archer in our group. So the build will only butt heads with the other two melee fighters and maybe even over shadow them if I do my combat maneuver feats right. Thus, I am not going to go with it.
You also have to remember that the paladin has gotten mercies and stuff and is alot more powerful than previous versions of the paladin. The cleric hasn't really gotten much stuff or any from previous versions. In that sense, the paladin is now more powerful than the cleric overall if you're going by pathfinder core rulebook. Go a divine champion cleric with no spellcasting but a couple of bonus feats. Put it into grapple, power attack, flying kick, fiery fists, stunning fist and ki blast. You got a melee character who can shut down alot of things with grapple. On a charge does additional 1d12 with unarmed. When flurrying foes additional 1d6 fire with each hit. Can throw orbs of force doing 3d6+ wisdom mod if he wants to stay ranged. On top of that, Can destroy undead. Go high strength good charisma and con. A hard hitter with people skills and isn't a complete dick when he talks <insert shocked expression here>. Forget the wisdom and dex. Make them 10. The character will have flaws but his strengths will be nothing to balk at.
Monk/cleric with well chosen monk feats for the win.
In the last game I ran, a monk with the energy ball feat used it thrice and killed 11 nasty upgraded Gillamoore zombies. Three single target attacks killing 11?
How was this done? One he exploded while backing up. Then using high speed to herd them around, got them to follow the player into a forest, took stock of the terrain, two orbs of force at a weighty tree. Ten further crushed undead (beyond his hand to hand ability to take at the current level).
Hadooken + tactics beats hungry zombies.
Yeah, I play 3.5 for the options.