Channeling the Cosmos: A guide to the Oracle


Advice

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Esk wrote:

How does an oracle qualify for the Improved Familiar feat ?

(There's a prerequisites with Arcane Spellcaster Level)

They use the Eldritch Heritage feat.

Eldritch Heriatage wrote:
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2


VRMH wrote:


They use the Eldritch Heritage feat.
Eldritch Heriatage wrote:
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2

Thanks for the answer, I will have to ask my GM his point of view, he may consider that using this power only concern the level of my familiar.

There’s a lot of GM-interpretation to play an Oracle (Deaf curse, Spiritual Weapon/Ally, etc..) which could completely change the character.

(And again sorry for my poor English ^^)


A quick question/observation about Oracles and Metamagic which occurred to me after reading the Summoner. Guide.

There is no reference in the Oracle casting section to them taking longer to cast metamagicked spontaneous spells. The RAW only mentions Sorcerors, Bards and the limited spontaneous Cleric and Druid abilities. As things stand other spontaneous characters are free of the restriction. This may seem a little cheesy and may or may not be RAI but its worth bearing in mind.

On the subject of Metamagic feats for Caster and Enabler types I dont think you can go wrong with Reach Spell. Turning those melee touch spells into range spells allows you to ignore Strength even more as a caster and to hang back out of melee. Bestow Curse, Plane Shift and Harm suddenly become much more dangerous and its also a lot easier to deliver your various buff spells. Reach Heal at later levels is extremely helpful.


RAW says:

Quote:
Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.

I think the examples prior to it are irrelevant, but that's me.


Alright guys, I'm back and very sorry for the absence. With the release of the Advanced Race Guide I realize that I have some additional work to do on the guide so that's in the queue. A few notes:

I've taken out the "special considerations" sections of each mystery. After looking back over the guide I didn't feel that they added much to it other than making it even wordier. And I'm already a wordy guy, so that had to go.

I'll be reviewing all the new races and additional options available to the "old" races. I imagine some of my opinions will change.

Anyways, I'll update this thread when there's additional content. Until then, sorry for the long delay. Life has been stupid crazy.


More Oracle guide! YES!

And just to make things more complicated: Have you seen:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends
Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels

I don't have the book my self - but i have noticed the new curses on the website...


Bigtuna wrote:

More Oracle guide! YES!

And just to make things more complicated: Have you seen:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends
Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Angels

I don't have the book my self - but i have noticed the new curses on the website...

Yeah, I've noticed them, but I'm gonna stick to my guns and not use them. I've avoided all of the race-specific books because they're Golarion centered and somewhat incompatible with the "vanilla" system.

Also, while I find the Aasimar to be bland but powerful, I find most of the variants to be flavorful and overpowered. I completely don't agree with the race's production in any way.

So yes, it's a soap box, but at least I'm being sorta consistent. :D

Also, take a peek at the Merfolk. Them shiz is crazy powerful! I'm like 90% through all of the races, but my boyfriend is shooting me some really dirty looks... so I'll have to pick this up tomorrow.

Looking forward to what everyone thinks.

Progress wrote:
  • Finish Races (90%)
  • Scan new spells to add to the guide (0%)
  • Review new archetypes (0%)
  • Finish Multiclass section (40ish%)
  • Sweep through the guide and see what I've missed and/or have been inconsistent on. (0%)


Alright, finished with the races section. I'm a bit concerned that I let some of my prejudices cloud my judgement, and also that I might have been super inconsistent. So I'm looking forward to any feeback I get here.

For the record: I hate aasimar almost as much as I hate tieflings. Which is almost as much as I hate drow, catfolk, and kitsune. I also hate Svirfneblin because I can't freakin' pronounce their name.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

Alright, finished with the races section. I'm a bit concerned that I let some of my prejudices cloud my judgement, and also that I might have been super inconsistent. So I'm looking forward to any feeback I get here.

For the record: I hate aasimar almost as much as I hate tieflings. Which is almost as much as I hate drow, catfolk, and kitsune. I also hate Svirfneblin because I can't freakin' pronounce their name.

Well, right off the bat:

"Aasimar are a very strong race for the oracle with bonuses to both your favored stat and your dump stat..."

"These guys have their bonuses in the right place, but I’m wary about a penalty to wisdom..."

If you're worried about a penalty to it, it's not much of a dump stat.


Benly wrote:

Well, right off the bat:

"Aasimar are a very strong race for the oracle with bonuses to both your favored stat and your dump stat..."

"These guys have their bonuses in the right place, but I’m wary about a penalty to wisdom..."

If you're worried about a penalty to it, it's not much of a dump stat.

I guess I didn't express this well enough in the guide. Aasimar have a bonus to wisdom which is pretty "meh" to me- I'd prefer it somewhere else. Since wisdom is the only stat an oracle can really dump it means that you can drive the stat down to 7 pretty easily to shore up other areas.

Conversely, a penalty to wisdom is also a penalty to your will saves, and I'm concerned about any character with as much as a -2 or -3 penalty to the class's only good save.

I still rated the race as blue, but I do feel that having a really low wisdom score is dangerous and worth mentioning.

Once thing I tried to be consistent in is how I ranked the stats: a penalty to strength is a bad thing unless the race isn't trying to be a Warrior type. A penalty to charisma is always a bad thing.

edit: Missed something.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:


I guess I didn't express this well enough in the guide. Aasimar have a bonus to wisdom which is pretty "meh" to me- I'd prefer it somewhere else. Since wisdom is the only stat an oracle can really dump it means that you can drive the stat down to 7 pretty easily to shore up other areas.

Conversely, a penalty to wisdom is also a penalty to your will saves, and I'm concerned about any character with as much as a -2 or -3 penalty to the class's only good save.

I still rated the race as blue, but I do feel that having a really low wisdom score is dangerous and worth mentioning.

Once thing I tried to be consistent in is how I ranked the stats: a penalty to strength is a bad thing unless the race isn't trying to be a Warrior type. A penalty to charisma is always a bad thing.

edit: Missed something.

So you can drive it down to 7 pretty easily, but you'd be concerned about any character who drives it down to 7?


Benly wrote:
So you can drive it down to 7 pretty easily, but you'd be concerned about any character who drives it down to 7?

You misunderstand. You can drive it down to 7 with a bonus to wisdom for a total of 9.

Still, I think you're right. I've been inconsistent with my ratings of stats. Looking over the point buy math and my own suggested stat arrays I've discovered something interesting: the only three stats that matter are strength, charisma, and wisdom.

Most point buys keep constitution, dexterity, and intelligence between 10-12, meaning that any race that penalizes one but boosts another won't hurt the overall point buy.

Wisdom is in a similar boat- if you've got a penalty to wisdom it'll even out if you also gained a bonus to constitution/dexterity/intelligence. However, if you gain a bonus to wisdom you can easily take a 7 in that score (boosted to 9) and gain two additional points for the point buy.

Strength and Charisma are emphasized even further on this examination. A penalty to either can be the equivalent of 5 lost points, and a bonus can be the equivalent of up to 7 gained points.

Also, I didn't realize how uncomfortable I am with a low wisdom score and how it affects your will save, so I've adjusted my stat arrays in the most reasonable way I could think of. It's not a huge change, but I've deemphasized taking a 7 in wisdom. I'm going to go back through the races and change my "concerning a racial bonus to charisma" section.


Yeah, I don't think that it can be called a dump stat the way you're talking about it. It's a neutral stat - one where you don't really want a penalty but don't care about a bonus. With a dump stat, you really have no mechanical reason not to drop it as low as it can go, like the classic Big Stupid Barbarian.


Benly wrote:
Yeah, I don't think that it can be called a dump stat the way you're talking about it. It's a neutral stat - one where you don't really want a penalty but don't care about a bonus. With a dump stat, you really have no mechanical reason not to drop it as low as it can go, like the classic Big Stupid Barbarian.

I don't think it's neutral, though. It's the only stat you can reasonably lower (just not too much). 8 is acceptable in my eyes, but 7 or less is dangerous.

I still consider it a dump stat, but yeah, you can't just mindlessly grind it into the dirt. It's the closest thing an oracle has to a dump stat though.


I'm not sure why you think it's a better dump stat than intelligence. Dumping intelligence can keep you from being a party face, sure, but that's about it, and it doesn't even have to do that - a human who takes skill points as favored class bonus can dump Int to 7 and still have skill points for Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff or Perception, and then UMD (just because UMD is delicious). If you don't want to be party face, what are you spending your skill points on that you really need other than UMD and Perception? Knowledge skills are nice, sure, but spouting lore is what wizards are there for, not so much Cha-based casters. (The exception is if you're a Lore oracle, of course, in which case I agree you'd rather have enough skill points to splash a bunch of different Knowledges.) Speaking mechanically, I'd rather drop an oracle's Int to 8 before her Wis.


Benly wrote:
I'm not sure why you think it's a better dump stat than intelligence. Dumping intelligence can keep you from being a party face, sure, but that's about it, and it doesn't even have to do that - a human who takes skill points as favored class bonus can dump Int to 7 and still have skill points for Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Bluff or Perception, and then UMD (just because UMD is delicious). If you don't want to be party face, what are you spending your skill points on that you really need other than UMD and Perception? Knowledge skills are nice, sure, but spouting lore is what wizards are there for, not so much Cha-based casters. (The exception is if you're a Lore oracle, of course, in which case I agree you'd rather have enough skill points to splash a bunch of different Knowledges.) Speaking mechanically, I'd rather drop an oracle's Int to 8 before her Wis.

Speaking mechanically, I'd probably agree with you (despite being a total skill whore). However when I look at intelligence I don't just see bonus skill points- I see an RP justification for competence. A penalty to your intelligence hinders your roleplaying in so many more ways than a penalty to wisdom. DMs will enforce that you're dumb, and you might even have entire ideas taken away from you simply because "you wouldn't have known that." This of course will vary with each table and each DM, so I have to make that choice as a broad stroke for the guide. So I have to make a broad strokes assumption of the game, and my experience has shown me that a low intelligence hinders far more than a low wisdom. At least when outside of the mechanics.

So this leaves me in an awkward situation: Changing the class's dump stat to intelligence (or even making it either one) would require a rewrite of the races/stats/feats/skills sections of the guide, bloating it further and obscuring information. I already think the guide is too large, despite adding more as content comes out. I think I'm usually far too wordy and that my opinions are frequently obscured by my babbling and references to previous areas. One of my recent goals has been to comb through it and whittle it down to something more manageable for the reader.

I've never written a guide before, and while the whole thing has been very rewarding it's also been deeply frustrating. The game is so diverse and built on interpretation that it's rare to find ten people who can agree on even a single thing. The discussion pages of the better guides out there are full of conflicting opinions and facts that contradict each other (even while being true). There's some of that in my discussion page, too, but this guide hasn't been very popular with the community so I've been shielded from a lot of that.

The best thing I can do is assess and respond to every comment here with my own personal opinion and/or facts and hope that we can come to some agreement for the guide. When it doesn't come to that, I've got to make the call (and I don't like when it comes to that).

tl;dr: I don't think you're wrong, and I don't think you're right. I think you've simply got a different approach that would require large amounts of rewrites to the guide and conflicts with my gut approach to the stat array.

Also, I haven't slept in 30 hours now. So I think I'm getting tangential.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Speaking mechanically, I'd probably agree with you (despite being a total skill whore). However when I look at intelligence I don't just see bonus skill points- I see an RP justification for competence. A penalty to your intelligence hinders your roleplaying in so many more ways than a penalty to wisdom.

I only half agree with you - I think this is partly because many DMs and players have a much clearer idea of what Intelligence means in concrete terms than they do about Wisdom, and partly because a low wisdom can easily be flavored as "prone to embracing bad ideas", which is in many cases what adventurers are expected to do anyway. :)

That said, an 8 intelligence and decent wisdom doesn't have to be an idiot; such a character could just as easily be your classic undereducated folk-wisdom sort. ("Now, I don't know much about your arcane lore, but I can tell a bad idea when I see one..")


Benly wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Speaking mechanically, I'd probably agree with you (despite being a total skill whore). However when I look at intelligence I don't just see bonus skill points- I see an RP justification for competence. A penalty to your intelligence hinders your roleplaying in so many more ways than a penalty to wisdom.

I only half agree with you - I think this is partly because many DMs and players have a much clearer idea of what Intelligence means in concrete terms than they do about Wisdom, and partly because a low wisdom can easily be flavored as "prone to embracing bad ideas", which is in many cases what adventurers are expected to do anyway. :)

That said, an 8 intelligence and decent wisdom doesn't have to be an idiot; such a character could just as easily be your classic undereducated folk-wisdom sort. ("Now, I don't know much about your arcane lore, but I can tell a bad idea when I see one..")

Again, I agree. But I still think that the most common interpretation of an 8 intelligence is "Thog like puppies! Thog smash puny talky man!"


Sean FitzSimon wrote:


Again, I agree. But I still think that the most common interpretation of an 8 intelligence is "Thog like puppies! Thog smash puny talky man!"

I can see that for a 5 or maybe even a 6-7, but honestly that's like saying a 12 intelligence makes you Einstein. Reasonably speaking, it would be more like "12 Int was an honor student, 8 int was a C student." While I know a lot of us Internet nerds would like to think otherwise, the Cs and Ds weren't exactly cavemen. :)


Benly wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:


Again, I agree. But I still think that the most common interpretation of an 8 intelligence is "Thog like puppies! Thog smash puny talky man!"
I can see that for a 5 or maybe even a 6-7, but honestly that's like saying a 12 intelligence makes you Einstein. Reasonably speaking, it would be more like "12 Int was an honor student, 8 int was a C student." While I know a lot of us Internet nerds would like to think otherwise, the Cs and Ds weren't exactly cavemen. :)

Which, as he said, is entirely subjective upon the GM.

And yes for many 7 or 8 is just like Thog.

He is simply working off of his expierience. If you feel yours differs than be sure to dump int right away. It makes about the same amount of difference one way or another.


Hey sean, any idea about the multiclass part III yet? Really love the guide, just wondered if part 3 was still in the works.


ashern wrote:
Hey sean, any idea about the multiclass part III yet? Really love the guide, just wondered if part 3 was still in the works.

Yeah, it's still in the works. I think I've reworked it like four times now. It's hard to weed out the bloat.


TarkXT wrote:
Benly wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:


Again, I agree. But I still think that the most common interpretation of an 8 intelligence is "Thog like puppies! Thog smash puny talky man!"
I can see that for a 5 or maybe even a 6-7, but honestly that's like saying a 12 intelligence makes you Einstein. Reasonably speaking, it would be more like "12 Int was an honor student, 8 int was a C student." While I know a lot of us Internet nerds would like to think otherwise, the Cs and Ds weren't exactly cavemen. :)

Which, as he said, is entirely subjective upon the GM.

And yes for many 7 or 8 is just like Thog.

He is simply working off of his expierience. If you feel yours differs than be sure to dump int right away. It makes about the same amount of difference one way or another.

Completely disagree that 8 is "Thog". There's no way - if 8 is Thog what is 6 or 7? 8 is like those stupid people you knew in High School that got passed along even though they couldn't write a decent sentance. They were still capable of communicating verbally like human beings, although typically through slang or at least improper grammer.

Also, if "Thog"'s an 8 INT, in this scenario he must have an abysmal Int AND Cha. Int shows a lack of understanding in things like logic/math, reading, but you can have an 8 INT and a high Charisma and come across smooth - even silver-tongued.


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Liegence wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Benly wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:


Again, I agree. But I still think that the most common interpretation of an 8 intelligence is "Thog like puppies! Thog smash puny talky man!"
I can see that for a 5 or maybe even a 6-7, but honestly that's like saying a 12 intelligence makes you Einstein. Reasonably speaking, it would be more like "12 Int was an honor student, 8 int was a C student." While I know a lot of us Internet nerds would like to think otherwise, the Cs and Ds weren't exactly cavemen. :)

Which, as he said, is entirely subjective upon the GM.

And yes for many 7 or 8 is just like Thog.

He is simply working off of his expierience. If you feel yours differs than be sure to dump int right away. It makes about the same amount of difference one way or another.

Completely disagree that 8 is "Thog". There's no way - if 8 is Thog what is 6 or 7? 8 is like those stupid people you knew in High School that got passed along even though they couldn't write a decent sentance. They were still capable of communicating verbally like human beings, although typically through slang or at least improper grammer.

Also, if "Thog"'s an 8 INT, in this scenario he must have an abysmal Int AND Cha. Int shows a lack of understanding in things like logic/math, reading, but you can have an 8 INT and a high Charisma and come across smooth - even silver-tongued.

I do not agree with it either. However whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is what your GM says.

In this case Sean has worked with his experience with his GM's and other GM's opinions on what they feel those stats represent. For his GM and many others having that low int means exactly what has been said. If your experiences are different that's great you should arrange your stats accordingly.


TarkXT wrote:

I do not agree with it either. However whether you agree or disagree is irrelevant.

The only thing that matters is what your GM says.

In this case Sean has worked with his experience with his GM's and other GM's opinions on what they feel those stats represent. For his GM and many others having that low int means exactly what has been said. If your experiences are different that's great you should arrange your stats accordingly.

Just for the record here, I don't agree with the idea that INT 8 means that your character is too dumb to understand first person vernacular. I personally see the score as representing someone "simple." Capable of speech and reasoning but also someone who takes a long time to grapple with more complex ideas. Your traditional TV jocks and ditzy cheerleaders, if you will.

Oh- and just to touch on that low int, high charisma thing: I don't think you'll come off as smooth or silver-tongued if you've dumped your int score. I see this character as a sort of Zap Brannigan (futurama) when trying to "fake" it, or Forrest Gump when being sincere. Their intelligence is always apparent, but Forrest was downright charming.

I'll add a note in the stat section about dumping intelligence instead of wisdom.


Right! I've gone ahead and linked the multiclass section back to the rest of the guide. It's not done, but I think it's about halfway there. I've been taking a lot of time to comb through all the options currently available but I'm interested in hearing suggestions if anyone has any.

So far I've found that most multiclassing favors the Warrior type, though sorcerer in particular has some very interesting bloodline arcanas.

Progress wrote:
  • Add new races to the guide (95% - still need to add race-specific feat notes if applicable)
  • Scan new spells to add to guide (0%)
  • Review new archetypes (0%)
  • Finish Multiclassing section (50%)
  • Final sweep through the guide (0%)


Ultimate Equipment - a little gem for the Oracle:
Page of spell knowledge. I think deserves to be mentioned.
Pay gold to get an extra spell known. Expensive for high level spells - but you get extra options and for 1-3 level spells it's a bargain.


Favored class options. Hmm there is a lot of copy paste here.
Perhaps it would be better to disguss "extra spell known" and "+1/4 level for curse" favored class options in the beginning - and then just note which class have it, instead of repeating yourself.

Spells - the elven spell "ward of season" - isn't Elves only - so anyone could get it (with GM approval) - it made my list - and for any lame oracle it should be a no brainer.

"Final sweep through guide" - heh - sure you don't wanna keep the guided updated :-)


Bigtuna wrote:

Ultimate Equipment - a little gem for the Oracle:

Page of spell knowledge. I think deserves to be mentioned.
Pay gold to get an extra spell known. Expensive for high level spells - but you get extra options and for 1-3 level spells it's a bargain.

I hadn't even considered looking over the Ultimate Equipment guide, to be honest. I think when I finish with what I've got on the burner I might add an equipment section that calls out specific items that function well with the oracle. This will definitely make the list.

Bigtuna wrote:
Favored class options. Hmm there is a lot of copy paste here. Perhaps it would be better to disguss "extra spell known" and "+1/4 level for curse" favored class options in the beginning - and then just note which class have it, instead of repeating yourself.

Yeah, you're right. It didn't seem so bad at first, but looking at it again I should definitely shorten this.

Bigtuna wrote:
Spells - the elven spell "ward of season" - isn't Elves only - so anyone could get it (with GM approval) - it made my list - and for any lame oracle it should be a no brainer.

I'll be covering all of the racial spells, no fear. I figured that since they were so debatable I'd put them after all of the other spells in a special racial section. I'd make a note that the spells were designed for use by the specific race, but lenient DMs might allow casters of any race access to them. Then I'll rate each spell according to race using a similar format as the rest of the guide.

Bigtuna wrote:
"Final sweep through guide" - heh - sure you don't wanna keep the guided updated :-)

Lol, I'm not abandoning the guide, don't worry. When I say "final sweep" I only mean in adding new content. The Advanced Race Guide changed the game in a fairly significant way, so I want to make sure I don't have conflicting remarks throughout the guide.


Does anyone have any thoughts on the "armor" feature so many of the Oracle mysteries have?

Wood, Waves, etc. many of them have this feature which becomes better as you gain oracle levels.

But they all have the caveat "one hour per oracle level." This is a nice feature, but to my mind almost totally useless until you get to 7th or 8th level or something.

I mean, what are you supposed to do, carry around normal armor to use for all the hours your Ice Armor (or whatever) isn't available?

It is a revelation that I think all the mysteries that get it can take at 1st level. As it stands now it seems like it would at least not be terrible past 10th level, but it is definitely not one of the first revelations any oracle should take.

I don't think I really understand why they limited it to one hour per level.

Also can you cast magic vestment on this armor? Makes it a lot more useful if you can.


sunbeam wrote:

Does anyone have any thoughts on the "armor" feature so many of the Oracle mysteries have?

Wood, Waves, etc. many of them have this feature which becomes better as you gain oracle levels.

But they all have the caveat "one hour per oracle level." This is a nice feature, but to my mind almost totally useless until you get to 7th or 8th level or something.

I mean, what are you supposed to do, carry around normal armor to use for all the hours your Ice Armor (or whatever) isn't available?

It is a revelation that I think all the mysteries that get it can take at 1st level. As it stands now it seems like it would at least not be terrible past 10th level, but it is definitely not one of the first revelations any oracle should take.

I don't think I really understand why they limited it to one hour per level.

Also can you cast magic vestment on this armor? Makes it a lot more useful if you can.

I rated them all in my guide as about an orange because they're situationally useful. They provide a very modest buff and don't have any penalties commonly associated with armor (speed, armor check, weight). They can also be donned with a single standard action instead of the lengthy 10 to 40 rounds.

They're 1 hour per level specifically because of this bonus.

As for being able to buff them with Magic Vestment- I don't see any specific wording that says you can't. Honestly, that might make them stronger revelations after level 8 or so. The revelations specifically state that they conjure armor and Magic Vestment requires it to be cast on armor and grants an enhancement bonus.

I'm not sure if it makes them green though. I'll have to think about it.

They're still fairly useless as anything but backup for the first 6-8 levels though.

edit: I changed my mind. The scaling of this armor, when paired with Magic Vestment, keeps it roughly in line with a set of Platemail using level-appropriate enhancement bonuses. That makes it green, possibly blue for certain mysteries.

Scarab Sages

Since you are talking about prestige classes now, have you thought about Veiled illusionist from Paths of Prestige. The requirements are not too restrictive and you get some fun stuff, like illusion spells (Invisibility, image spells) from the wizard spell list.

If you are building a heavens oracle (or something similar), who will probably get Spell focus: Illusion anyway and doesn't have that many worthwhile revelations, veiled illusionist would probably be pretty good. It makes an oracle Illusionist a viable build.


First, let me say that this guide is great, possibily the best one I've seen around cause gets updated and covers many aspects with useful informations for Oracle class players. So, great job here and keep it updated: your work is really appreciated!

Second, this guide and many hours of playing with oracle PCs made me appreciate this class a lot. The oracle class is great, very fun to play and creative. It's the only class I consider to play multiple times and without getting bored, because of the flexibility and adaptability to every concept (thanks to the curse and the mistery mechanics).

Third, I would like to contribute sharing my impressions and game experience with this fantastic class:
- oracle's armor (refered to the tipical armor the oracle can conjure that lasts [lv] hours and gives a scaling armor bonus) is always a great choice, possibily every oracle 7th level revelation (with a duration of 7 hours). Speaking by numbers, at level 7th you will have an armor with an AC of 6, no penalties neither constrictions which can be improved to 7 with a magic vestment spell (same duration!). Also, it's a very useful buff to use while sleeping. By level 20 you can reach a 12 AC bonus + 5 from magic vestment = 17 total armor bonus, not bad at all...
- aasimar, ifrit and sylph makes for great oracles because of the racial favorited class bonus. Unless I'm reading it wrong, possible great uses are: spirit of the warrior [ancestor] by level 11 will give 16 bab, so 4 attacks and a really good bonus to hit, CMD and qualify for amazing feats like dazing and stunning assault (also having a greater DC). By level 20 a 30 bab... Same, but limited, for maneuver mastery [battle]; raise of the dead [bones] will last more and will let you conjure a really strong -fast advanced- zombie (no HD cap); many forms [dark tapestry] by level 10 you will have access to greater polymorph; form of flame [flame] and water form [waves] for even more hours and polymorph by level 9 into a huge elemental form with elemental body IV; mental acuity [lore] for even extra intelligence (by level 20, a +8); bonded mount (nature) calculates your companion using your level (x1.5); spell resistance [spellscar] for quasi-immunity to spells! (level 12 -> 23, level 20 -> 35 SR). The possibilities... I'm not sure about the DC of abilities like lignification that uses level to calculate the DC. In this case the racial favored class bonus of the aasimar might increase the DC by 5...
- halfelf is possibily the best race for the oracle. With Paragon Surge spell, this class becomes the king of versatility

Scarab Sages

How do u feel the race book hs changed the game>?


Okeikkk wrote:
Info on the Veiled Illusionist

I took a look at the class and you're right, it's pretty solid and easy to qualify. Unfortunately Paths of Prestige is a PF: Accessory and not part of the main line of books, which I've tried to limit the guide to. I feel that keeping it strictly to the main line of books, or "loose core" and I've come to call it, keeps it accessible to most players. I've also found that the accessory books tend to be a little less vigorous in determining potentially unbalanced material.

45ur4 wrote:
First, let me say that this guide is great, possibily the best one I've seen around cause gets updated and covers many aspects with useful informations for Oracle class players. So, great job here and keep it updated: your work is really appreciated!

*blush* I love hearing that the guide is going to some good use, but I can't take credit for all of it. The guide is mostly a combined effort of the community interested in the Oracle, though I act as a final arbiter in terms of what goes in. Ultimately, I don't take full credit for the guide but I do claim full responsibility.

45ur4 wrote:
Second, this guide and many hours of playing with oracle PCs made me appreciate this class a lot. The oracle class is great, very fun to play and creative. It's the only class I consider to play multiple times and without getting bored, because of the flexibility and adaptability to every concept (thanks to the curse and the mistery mechanics).

Couldn't agree more. I had a much lower opinion of the class before I started on the guide, but now I find it incredibly flexible and brimming with flavor.

45ur4 wrote:
- oracle's armor (refered to the tipical armor the oracle can conjure that lasts [lv] hours and gives a scaling armor bonus) is always a great choice, possibily every oracle 7th level revelation (with a duration of 7 hours). Speaking by numbers, at level 7th you will have an armor with an AC of 6, no penalties neither constrictions which can be improved to 7 with a magic vestment spell (same duration!). Also, it's a very useful buff to use while sleeping. By level 20 you can reach a 12 AC bonus + 5 from magic vestment = 17 total armor bonus, not bad at all...

Earlier, sunbeam questioned whether or not the armor revelations could be combined with Magic Vestment. It was something I'd never even thought of, but it forced me to look back through them and rerate each one. I found that the ones that had favorable wording (bones, waves, wood) were easy to recommend, but I still feel that a lot of it is up to DM interpretation. I also struggle with the idea of something being blue but not particularly useful before 7th or 8th level, which is halfway (or more) through most character's lifetimes.

45ur4 wrote:
- aasimar, ifrit and sylph makes for great oracles because of the racial favorited class bonus. Unless I'm reading it wrong, possible great uses are: spirit of the warrior [ancestor] by level 11 will give 16 bab, so 4 attacks and a really good bonus to hit, CMD and qualify for amazing feats like dazing and stunning assault (also having a greater DC). By level 20 a 30 bab... Same, but limited, for maneuver mastery [battle]; raise of the dead [bones] will last more and will let you conjure a really strong -fast advanced- zombie (no HD cap); many forms [dark tapestry] by level 10 you will have access to greater polymorph; form of flame [flame] and water form [waves] for even more hours and polymorph by level 9 into a huge elemental form with elemental body IV; mental acuity [lore] for even extra intelligence (by level 20, a +8); bonded mount (nature) calculates your companion using your level (x1.5); spell resistance [spellscar] for quasi-immunity to spells! (level 12 -> 23, level 20 -> 35 SR). The possibilities... I'm not sure about the DC of abilities like lignification that uses level to calculate the DC. In this case the racial favored class bonus of the aasimar might increase the DC by 5...

Aasimar and Ifrit are both marked blue, but the Sylph is hard to recommend because it doesn't really have anything going for it. As for their favored class bonus, shared with the Elf, I'm torn on. You provide a few really excellent uses of this ability, but most revelations are going to hit diminishing returns at some point. It's probably worth it for some revelations, sure, but anything with a hard cap is significantly less worthwhile in a "full campaign."

Still, you make some excellent points. I'll probably adjust my wording to be less negative, and bump it from red to green up to orange to blue.

45ur4 wrote:
- halfelf is possibily the best race for the oracle. With Paragon Surge spell, this class becomes the king of versatility

That spell is so stupidly amazing that I already nerfed it in my own game. There was a very similar feature in 3.5 with the Chameleon prestige class, and it was so good that there was an entire guide devoted to exploiting their rotating feat. Exploits from this spell range from unhindered magical crafting to gaining any single arcane spell added to your list by taking two feats into the Eldritch Heritage tree for Arcane.

Black Lotus wrote:
How do u feel the race book hs changed the game>?

It changed the game by doing exactly what it was supposed to: making race matter. When Pathfinder first wandered onto the scene the difference in races was as minor as it was in 3.5- you're looking for stat boosts, vision, and land speed. Everything else stopped mattering after level 5 or so. Then with the inclusion of racial favored classes, variable racial features, race-specific feats/spells/archetypes... it's all so amazing. The book made race so significant that you can choose any race with "oracle" options and build something that no other race can emulate. You don't have to, obviously, but the fact that you can is amazing to me.

One of the things that 4th edition D&D spouted during their initial advertising, long before it actually released, was that they were "going to make race matter." They said things like "a dwarf cleric won't play like a tiefling cleric." I was so incredibly excited about this concept because I feel that a character's race should matter. Dwarf Clerics shouldn't just be shorter than Tiefling Clerics- they should be dwarfy. This of course turned out to be utterly false advertising in the long run, and was likely my biggest disappointment in the system. This is not 4e hate, though! It's just a way I was excited and then disappointed.

When each race is viewed separately none of them are worse off with the new additions. They've all gained incredible, and often unique (or unique-ish) versatility while also maintaining their racial concept. Elves still feel elfy, and dwarves still feel dwarfy. And now you can play a 17th level Elven Oracle and have people at the table say "man, I wish my character was an elf so that I could be able to do that."

That's how the race book has changed the game.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:

That spell is so stupidly amazing that I already nerfed it in my own game. There was a very similar feature in 3.5 with the Chameleon prestige class, and it was so good that there was an entire guide devoted to exploiting their rotating feat. Exploits from this spell range from unhindered magical crafting to gaining any single arcane spell added to your list by taking two feats into the Eldritch Heritage tree for Arcane.

While I agree that getting any arcane spell is a bit more versatility than they probably intended, it does not give you unhindered crafting. It only lasts for 1 minute per level, which until very late game, does not give you enough time per day to even get the 2 hour minimum for scrolls, and potions, let alone the four for everything else.


The Vulture wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

That spell is so stupidly amazing that I already nerfed it in my own game. There was a very similar feature in 3.5 with the Chameleon prestige class, and it was so good that there was an entire guide devoted to exploiting their rotating feat. Exploits from this spell range from unhindered magical crafting to gaining any single arcane spell added to your list by taking two feats into the Eldritch Heritage tree for Arcane.

While I agree that getting any arcane spell is a bit more versatility than they probably intended, it does not give you unhindered crafting. It only lasts for 1 minute per level, which until very late game, does not give you enough time per day to even get the 2 hour minimum for scrolls, and potions, let alone the four for everything else.

Good point. I was definitely thinking of the Chameleon's ability when I wrote that. Thanks for setting me straight. :)

Still, I limited the ability to only combat and skill feats in my own game.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
The Vulture wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:

That spell is so stupidly amazing that I already nerfed it in my own game. There was a very similar feature in 3.5 with the Chameleon prestige class, and it was so good that there was an entire guide devoted to exploiting their rotating feat. Exploits from this spell range from unhindered magical crafting to gaining any single arcane spell added to your list by taking two feats into the Eldritch Heritage tree for Arcane.

While I agree that getting any arcane spell is a bit more versatility than they probably intended, it does not give you unhindered crafting. It only lasts for 1 minute per level, which until very late game, does not give you enough time per day to even get the 2 hour minimum for scrolls, and potions, let alone the four for everything else.

Good point. I was definitely thinking of the Chameleon's ability when I wrote that. Thanks for setting me straight. :)

Still, I limited the ability to only combat and skill feats in my own game.

An entirely reasonable limitation, and probably more along what they had in mind for it. I think I'll end up using that rule, myself, if one of my players ever tries a half elf spontaneous caster.

I also wish to say just how much I like the guide. While you may say you're worried about being overly wordy, I sure appreciate the depth you go into here.


The Vulture wrote:
I also wish to say just how much I like the guide. While you may say you're worried about being overly wordy, I sure appreciate the depth you go into here.

I'm glad to hear it. At least my ramblings aren't a total waste. :D

As for updates, I'm totally done with the Races section. I've also added all of the racial spells to the guide. You can find it at the end of the spell section in it's own little area, as well as a new link added at the top.

I apologize again for all the delays in this guide. I'm now working in a customer service call center (loooong hours) and have been suckered into designing a baby shower invite for a cousin (very frustrated about this). There seems to be a lot of interest in the multiclass section so I'll be focusing most of my energy there. I've decided to keep that section live so you'll be able to track changes as they come. I'll still make a post here when it's complete of course.

Progress wrote:
  • Review new archetypes (0%)
  • Finish Multiclassing section (50%)
  • Final sweep through the guide (0%)


Sean, I have a feeling you're about to downgrade your rating of Steel Scarf.


Cheapy wrote:
Sean, I have a feeling you're about to downgrade your rating of Steel Scarf.

Womp womp.

Yep, downgraded it goes. That blows.


Haha, saw the updated placeholders, looking forward to rage prophet! (i hope it's 4 stars because of the shenanigans myself and a few other people posted)


ashern wrote:
Haha, saw the updated placeholders, looking forward to rage prophet! (i hope it's 4 stars because of the shenanigans myself and a few other people posted)

Yeah, I already rated them but I haven't written up why each rating. I've got a list of notes on each, though. The thing you hear most often about the rage prophet it "take 4 barbarian and the rest oracle and you're a better rage prophet than this class." I was inclined to agree until I tore the class apart. Honestly it does some goofy stuff that really can't be emulated elsewhere. I'm a big fan. :D

I haven't read any threads on the RP in a while though. Mind linking them here? It'd help me flesh out my assessment of the class.


Ugh, this multiclassing section has been exhausting. I've dug through every single core/basic class to make sure that I was rating it correctly and efficiently. There are a lot of freakin' archetypes.

That said, I'm almost done. I've got the first two sections finished, leaving only the Prestige Class part at the end. I've chosen only to explore 6 prestige classes as they were the most natural options. If anyone else had a suggestion for a prestige class (loose core only, please) just drop me a line here in this thread and I'll look it over.

The Prestige section won't take long, but frankly I'm feeling damn lazy right now. I've ready so much about the cavalier and monk that my eyes feel like they're going to bleed. And those two didn't even have anything worth contributing to the guide.


Hellknight Signifer - from path of prestige (i know not something you wanna include) - but if I mention it here someone might notice :-)

Easy too qualify for. A feat you might want.

"if a Hellknight signifer has the Warrior Priest feat, his Hellknight signifer level stacks with other divine spellcasting classes for determining the effects of those classes' domain powers, inquisitions, and mysteries"

So you don't get extra mysteries, but it advances those you have.
You gain:
Extra Class skills
Heavy armor prof + an weapon prof.
and a few nifty abilities - and since you don't loose caster lvl this is one of the few prestige classes i would even consider taking...


Wow, that's super nice Bigtuna. I'm not surprised that it didn't make it to the main line of books, lol.

On a side note I'm totally done with the Multiclassing section. That means that all I have left to do is the new Archetypes and another sweep of the guide.

Woo! So close! Holy f*ck I've gotten lazy.

Again, sorry for all the delays, people.


*ahem*

The Oracle Guide is now officially complete and up to date with current source books.

I still need to sift through it a few (dozen) more times to catch inconsistencies and poor writing, but everything is there and written about.

I'm still considering an equipment section and a few sample builds, but for now I'm just happy to settle on "finally done."


I'll let you keep the feeling of accomplisment a little while before I starts to suggest extra content :-)


Ward of season - I assume using the extra powers is a free action - if not the spell wouldn't make sense...

It's 1 hour/lvl - extend it... You can cast it on your allies - sometimes even before you go to sleep...

Spring - don't use the option...

Summer - +10 untyped base speed all day! That's a bonus not just for the lame. Positioning is important - and as thing get large or huge you'll need this for flanking... The 30 feet is there when you need it. It's like expidious retreat quickend - when you need it. All day.

Fall - I would go with summer 9/10 times - but before you run through the stinking cloud or well something that you know will test your fort saves - you could spend an action on this. The second option - it's there when you need it - and could save you a heal spell/heroes feast/neutralise poison... And If poisoned in combat you (or your ally that can't stop poison by himself) take the initial save - and if he fail - can spend a standard action to change to this option get +2 on his save + a second dice on the save. It's a bonus - not the main effect (that summer)

Winter - difficult terrain is a b%*%~ - when you se a difficult battlefield this will help you 5 foot steep to make those full attacks or get away so you don't need to cast defensively...

Overall I rate this green or even blue (not Paragon surge blue) but it's the kind of spell that you cast and USE every day.


Bigtuna wrote:
Ward of season - I assume using the extra powers is a free action - if not the spell wouldn't make sense...

Yeah, I'm not sure here either. Free seems the most appropriate though.

Bigtuna wrote:

It's 1 hour/lvl - extend it... You can cast it on your allies - sometimes even before you go to sleep...

Spring - don't use the option...

Summer - +10 untyped base speed all day! That's a bonus not just for the lame. Positioning is important - and as thing get large or huge you'll need this for flanking... The 30 feet is there when you need it. It's like expidious retreat quickend - when you need it. All day.

The extra 30 feet is sorta there. Keep in mind that it's a boost to your base land speed, not your land speed, so it's affected by armor encumbrance. Since most oracles are in medium armor, it will usually equate to a 20 foot boost in speed. You can check out the chart here. The +10 movement is really nice though.

Bigtuna wrote:
Fall - I would go with summer 9/10 times - but before you run through the stinking cloud or well something that you know will test your fort saves - you could spend an action on this. The second option - it's there when you need it - and could save you a heal spell/heroes feast/neutralise poison... And If poisoned in combat you (or your ally that can't stop poison by himself) take the initial save - and if he fail - can spend a standard action to change to this option get +2 on his save + a second dice on the save. It's a bonus - not the main effect (that summer)

I've never found poisons and diseases to be very common, honestly. They're a pain to deal with for sure, but I think you'd probably end up using the summer option 19/20 times. Still, you're right, it's nice when you need it. The issue I'm having here is that you're spending a standard action to swap to your +2 fortitude when you could be doing something else.

Bigtuna wrote:
Winter - difficult terrain is a b%++# - when you se a difficult battlefield this will help you 5 foot steep to make those full attacks or get away so you don't need to cast defensively...

You're absolutely right here. I changed my wording to reflect this.

Bigtuna wrote:
Overall I rate this green or even blue (not Paragon surge blue) but it's the kind of spell that you cast and USE every day.

And see this is actually my problem: the spell is nice. But at the end of the day it's just a bunch of first level spells rolled into a single spell that you can swap around as a standard action. To make it really amazing you've got to spend a freakin' fifth level spell slot which is totally unacceptable. The versatility of the spell makes it green in my eyes, but most days it's just going to be Longstrider with bursts of Expeditious Retreat when you need it, and those are both first level spells. That's why I rated it orange/green.

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