Channeling the Cosmos: A guide to the Oracle


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TarkXT wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:


This is a really interesting concept.

But not entirely unique. One nature ORacle I've seen played literally saw nothin but the perfection of nature, the world as it would be without the influence of humanoid races mucking it up.

I played with an earth oracle dwarf who was literally half stone for his ugly curse.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of reflavoring the curses to suit your mystery. I've seen a life oracle with the tongues mystery whose eyes shone golden white and she could only speak the language of the celestials.

Just recently I played with a Waves oracle with the lame mystery. His body had become more aquatic and made it more difficult to walk on land with what were essentially elongated webbed feet. It was awesome.


cp wrote:

As for curing - a couple of examples.

An 11th level oracle can cast a Magical Lineage Empowered CLW as a 2nd level spell - and cures on average 22 hp. And he can cast those on a healthy character for use as bonus HP. Not having your wizard's go down and lose an action is WAY worth it.

Or do it with a 2nd level cure and a lesser rod of maximize for 58.. Its pretty strong...

As a well built Oracle (or a well built anything), your actions should be just as important and useful as any wizard's. I understand that it's often the divine character's job to heal, but preemptive healing to that extent is simply wasteful. There are better uses of your actions, like taking steps to preventing the damage if possible.

Besides, any wizard worth keeping alive (mechanically, at least) should be able to take care of himself and the rest of the party as well in combat without a large number of temp HP at the start of encounters.


nategar05 wrote:
cp wrote:

As for curing - a couple of examples.

An 11th level oracle can cast a Magical Lineage Empowered CLW as a 2nd level spell - and cures on average 22 hp. And he can cast those on a healthy character for use as bonus HP. Not having your wizard's go down and lose an action is WAY worth it.

Or do it with a 2nd level cure and a lesser rod of maximize for 58.. Its pretty strong...

As a well built Oracle (or a well built anything), your actions should be just as important and useful as any wizard's. I understand that it's often the divine character's job to heal, but preemptive healing to that extent is simply wasteful. There are better uses of your actions, like taking steps to preventing the damage if possible.

Besides, any wizard worth keeping alive (mechanically, at least) should be able to take care of himself and the rest of the party as well in combat without a large number of temp HP at the start of encounters.

Nategar, we may in fact be the same person.

Shadow Lodge

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:


This is a really interesting concept.

But not entirely unique. One nature ORacle I've seen played literally saw nothin but the perfection of nature, the world as it would be without the influence of humanoid races mucking it up.

I played with an earth oracle dwarf who was literally half stone for his ugly curse.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of reflavoring the curses to suit your mystery. I've seen a life oracle with the tongues mystery whose eyes shone golden white and she could only speak the language of the celestials.

Just recently I played with a Waves oracle with the lame mystery. His body had become more aquatic and made it more difficult to walk on land with what were essentially elongated webbed feet. It was awesome.

The aberrant sorcerer with a level of Bones oracle I mentioned earlier took the Haunted curse. He calls himself the Red Hand, and a red handprint is his Arcane Mark.

His curse? His hands. No, not the ones at the end of his arms (although he often complains that they spend too much time there). His other hands. His Long Limbs manifest as extra hands reaching in odd places near him. Occasionally, hands catch and hold a weapon that pierces too deeply into him. Often, an odd scurrying can be observed underneath his cloak. So, every so often, he realizes he is carrying something in the wrong hands.


For the Wood Mystery:

In Treantmonk's Druid spells guide, he ranks Warp Wood green:

"A fairly useful debuffing spell. You can warp several targeted weapons, shields etc with one spell. Also has some utility use, like to open doors (and as the spell suggests - sink ships). A will save negates."

For the most part, he's pretty good at rating things. Would this push Bend The Grain into Orange or better territory? Also, it also gives Wood Shape (to be fair he rated that red) and Repel Wood (orange) as options? Especially after you get Transmute Metal to Wood.

Also, cursed be the Wooden Weapon Revelation. If it had included a bow as something you could summon, it almost might have made archery worthwhile. Maybe. I don't see why they didn't. Longbows are made of wood and usable with Wood Bond.

======

In the Feats section:

1. It'd be a good idea to point out that Toughness is best at 1st level because the extra bonus HP, especially relative to the rest of your HP total.

2. It may also be a good idea to rate every metamagic feat (excluding campaign setting specific ones) because the Oracle is so heavily reliant on magic and has the spell slots to effectively use them.

=======

I'd also officially recommend that you recommend to anyone wanting to play a blaster Oracle to be a Flame Oracle with Elemental Spell to compensate for enemy resistances and immunities. It's the only Mystery spell list that properly allows some great blasting. By all means continue sharing the opinion in the guide that blasting is generally a sub-par role to have, and I agree that it is. Still, it's good to help blasters out.

Not to be condescending, but odds are decent that some people may not pick up on that immediately if they aren't familiar with the system itself or even with the difference between arcane and divine spell lists if they're previously used to playing blaster Wizards or Sorcerers. That may be part of why they're reading your guide in the first place. I only learned Pathfinder relatively recently and the way I've come to know the system and efficient ways of doing things was by reading every optimization guide I could find.

======

Also, um, bump. : P


RE: the cool flavor curse interpretations, the obvious gnome pyromaniac flame oracle I have in mind uses wasting as his curse, but it's actually burn scars that he continually inflicts on himself because he sees fire as the highest form of life and wants to become one with it. crazy little bastard - but intimidating as hell ;)

Also a minor point on the guide; I read Rock Throwing as giving proficiency in thrown rocks; "you are an accomplished rock thrower" doesn't sound to me like being non-proficient. If that's true, 2d4 damage with 1.5 str bonus is nothing to shake a stick at -- there's an interesting niche build there. You're basically using a falchion, trading crit range for RANGE range. But where do you keep all those rocks is the question :)

Liberty's Edge

At a couple points you refer to the eldritch heritage feat chain as 4 - 5 feats. I get calling it 4 feats, since it requires skill focus, but I'm lost on the 5th feat.

Also, is it confirmed that it the arcane bloodline heritage grants the ability to cast the sorcerer spells by RAI or is that strictly RAW? (Not saying the guide shouldn't go by RAW, I'm just curious.)


ShadowcatX wrote:

At a couple points you refer to the eldritch heritage feat chain as 4 - 5 feats. I get calling it 4 feats, since it requires skill focus, but I'm lost on the 5th feat.

Also, is it confirmed that it the arcane bloodline heritage grants the ability to cast the sorcerer spells by RAI or is that strictly RAW? (Not saying the guide shouldn't go by RAW, I'm just curious.)

Its RAW basically. But it doesn't leave any room for other interpretations so its RAI I guess ;).

And its ONE spell (for most of the time) you will get for 3 Feats. You could have +x inherent bonus on CON for that, which I would rate higher ;)


I may have missed this somewhere in the thread, if someone else pointed it out I appolgize:

The Dual-Cursed Oracle's Misfortune Revelation does not require you to target enemies with it. Your buddy just rolled a natural 1 on his save against a SoD? How unfortunate... for your enemy, as you're going to have your buddy re-roll it and take the second roll.

I know its already Blue, but the guide notes enemies. Figured it was worth pointing out.


nategar05 wrote:

For the Wood Mystery:

In Treantmonk's Druid spells guide, he ranks Warp Wood green:

"A fairly useful debuffing spell. You can warp several targeted weapons, shields etc with one spell. Also has some utility use, like to open doors (and as the spell suggests - sink ships). A will save negates."

As the spell alone I'd rated it orange, but the dismal amount of times per day you can do it pushed it down to red. I could easily see it remaining orange though. Repel Wood is a really tricky spell to make work correctly (it's only a 60' line).

Quote:
Also, cursed be the Wooden Weapon Revelation. If it had included a bow as something you could summon, it almost might have made archery worthwhile. Maybe. I don't see why they didn't. Longbows are made of wood and usable with Wood Bond.

Haha, I'd actually thought the same thing. It's as if the mystery is taunting you.

Quote:
1. It'd be a good idea to point out that Toughness is best at 1st level because the extra bonus HP, especially relative to the rest of your HP total.

Good point.

Quote:
2. It may also be a good idea to rate every metamagic feat (excluding campaign setting specific ones) because the Oracle is so heavily reliant on magic and has the spell slots to effectively use them.

I'm a pretty firm believer that no caster should have more than 2-3 metamagic feats, otherwise she's really not getting her money's worth. You make a good point about covering all of them, though. I think I'll break them off into a sub section and discuss the importance and versatility of metamagic. But I really do loathe discussing them all. :)

Quote:
I'd also officially recommend that you recommend to anyone wanting to play a blaster Oracle to be a Flame Oracle with Elemental Spell to compensate for enemy resistances and immunities. It's the only Mystery spell list that properly allows some great blasting. By all means continue sharing the opinion in the guide that blasting is generally a sub-par role to have, and I agree that it is. Still, it's good to help blasters out.

Every time I covered a mystery I thought to myself "here are a few mystery specific suggestions." I worry that adding an additional paragraph would make my guide too wordy and that the actual ratings would get lost among the commentary. I'll add the specific suggestion to pursue Flame Oracle in the blaster description.

Quote:
Not to be condescending, but odds are decent that some people may not pick up on that immediately if they aren't familiar with the system itself or even with the difference between arcane and divine spell lists if they're previously used to playing blaster Wizards or Sorcerers. That may be part of why they're reading your guide in the first place. I only learned Pathfinder relatively recently and the way I've come to know the system and efficient ways of doing things was by reading every optimization guide I could find.

This is definitely a good point, and I'll bring it up in the spell half of the guide where I discuss blasting.


MyTThor wrote:
RE: the cool flavor curse interpretations, the obvious gnome pyromaniac flame oracle I have in mind uses wasting as his curse, but it's actually burn scars that he continually inflicts on himself because he sees fire as the highest form of life and wants to become one with it. crazy little bastard - but intimidating as hell ;)

I'm helplessly in love with this concept.

Quote:
Also a minor point on the guide; I read Rock Throwing as giving proficiency in thrown rocks; "you are an accomplished rock thrower" doesn't sound to me like being non-proficient. If that's true, 2d4 damage with 1.5 str bonus is nothing to shake a stick at -- there's an interesting niche build there. You're basically using a falchion, trading crit range for RANGE range. But where do you keep all those rocks is the question :)

I agree that by RAI it seems that proficiency is "implied," but RAW a rock is an improvised weapon and requires a feat to use without harsh penalty. I can see it as orange for niche builds and a favorable DM ruling. The biggest problem is that you'll likely have to rely on nearby rocks, or pull them from extradimensional space, and you won't be able to ever do more than one a round. It's a fun trick to have in your back pocket, but it's never going to be green, you know?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
ShadowcatX wrote:
At a couple points you refer to the eldritch heritage feat chain as 4 - 5 feats. I get calling it 4 feats, since it requires skill focus, but I'm lost on the 5th feat.

The second arcane heritage feat can be taken twice to get both the 3rd and 9th level ability of a bloodline. For most people it's 4 feats (including skill focus), but a select few bloodlines have enough goodies to warrant taking them all.

Quote:
Also, is it confirmed that it the arcane bloodline heritage grants the ability to cast the sorcerer spells by RAI or is that strictly RAW? (Not saying the guide shouldn't go by RAW, I'm just curious.)

RAW it grants you 1-3 wizard spells. As far as RAI goes, I honestly feel like it agrees with RAW. You're gaining these bloodline abilities from a rich ancestry of arcane magic. It makes a lot of sense that this has manifested as the knowledge of a select few arcane spells. It's not any more gamebreaking than a sorcerer with the ability, but it's a definite boost to the strength of the class.


KrispyXIV wrote:

I may have missed this somewhere in the thread, if someone else pointed it out I appolgize:

The Dual-Cursed Oracle's Misfortune Revelation does not require you to target enemies with it. Your buddy just rolled a natural 1 on his save against a SoD? How unfortunate... for your enemy, as you're going to have your buddy re-roll it and take the second roll.

I know its already Blue, but the guide notes enemies. Figured it was worth pointing out.

It boggles my mind how I managed to miss that. Good catch!


Now that I think of it, Clouded Vision is slightly worse than TarkXT made it out to be in your quote of him. He said that it's most useful for melee Oracles, which is true. However, a really good candidate for melee Oracles is the half-Orc (tied with Human IMO) and they already have Darkvision. Also, he mentioned Scent as a workaround for it. However, Scent is a benefit of the Deaf curse. Clouded Vision eventually gives you Darkvision 60 ft., Blindsense 30 ft., and Blindsight 15 ft.


nategar05 wrote:
Now that I think of it, Clouded Vision is slightly worse than TarkXT made it out to be in your quote of him. He said that it's most useful for melee Oracles, which is true. However, a really good candidate for melee Oracles is the half-Orc (tied with Human IMO) and they already have Darkvision. Also, he mentioned Scent as a workaround for it. However, Scent is a benefit of the Deaf curse. Clouded Vision eventually gives you Darkvision 60 ft., Blindsense 30 ft., and Blindsight 15 ft.

You're right about scent, but half-orcs have the ability to pick up scent as a feat so it remains loosely applicable none-the-less. I amended his quote to match this.

I find Clouded Vision to be a really poor choice for any oracle (as noted in my guide), but the benefits do initially favor the human/half-elf. Darkvision is a wasted boon for the Half-Orc, but the half-orc has the ability to gain scent and decrease her dependence on sight. In the end I'd say it's about equal if you're willing to spend a feat orc side.

Also, the metamagic section is done.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
nategar05 wrote:
Now that I think of it, Clouded Vision is slightly worse than TarkXT made it out to be in your quote of him. He said that it's most useful for melee Oracles, which is true. However, a really good candidate for melee Oracles is the half-Orc (tied with Human IMO) and they already have Darkvision. Also, he mentioned Scent as a workaround for it. However, Scent is a benefit of the Deaf curse. Clouded Vision eventually gives you Darkvision 60 ft., Blindsense 30 ft., and Blindsight 15 ft.

You're right about scent, but half-orcs have the ability to pick up scent as a feat so it remains loosely applicable none-the-less. I amended his quote to match this.

I find Clouded Vision to be a really poor choice for any oracle (as noted in my guide), but the benefits do initially favor the human/half-elf. Darkvision is a wasted boon for the Half-Orc, but the half-orc has the ability to gain scent and decrease her dependence on sight. In the end I'd say it's about equal if you're willing to spend a feat orc side.

Also, the metamagic section is done.

Good job on the metamagic. I read it and have no disagreements. The only thought I have is that Rime Spell is actually decent with a bunch of Cold spells, such as accessible with Elemental Spell. +2 level to nearly every spell for that? I don't think it's worth it, but it's not too bad an option. Also, it could be good for the Waves Oracles at high level if they have nothing better to do than spam Walls of Ice.

As for the half-orc getting scent, that feat requires Wis 13, so it's quite expensive, although everything you just said is still true.


nategar05 wrote:
As for the half-orc getting scent, that feat requires Wis 13, so it's quite expensive, although everything you just said is still true.

Ooh, forgot about that. Well, it's not even my opinion to start. :D


nategar05 wrote:


As for the half-orc getting scent, that feat requires Wis 13, so it's quite expensive, although everything you just said is still true.

Not really? I mean Wis 13 is not that high if scent is what you really want. You shouldn't be dumping wis anyway since you're essentially ripping up your one good save.

And again there are plenty of workarounds for it not to mention it's as good as a non-curse to a melee oracle who will be mostly buffing himself and swinging at people in sight anyway. So you really don't even need scent it's jsut there if you want it. Heck even nature oracles can get a seeing eye dog.


TarkXT wrote:
nategar05 wrote:


As for the half-orc getting scent, that feat requires Wis 13, so it's quite expensive, although everything you just said is still true.

Not really? I mean Wis 13 is not that high if scent is what you really want. You shouldn't be dumping wis anyway since you're essentially ripping up your one good save.

And again there are plenty of workarounds for it not to mention it's as good as a non-curse to a melee oracle who will be mostly buffing himself and swinging at people in sight anyway. So you really don't even need scent it's jsut there if you want it. Heck even nature oracles can get a seeing eye dog.

I agree that it's not that hindering to melee types even without scent. I actually put it in one of the first posts of this topic (you may want to use ctrl f, it's a really long post.). However, to be really good at a thing or two, it's nice to find a stat to dump. Yes losing a couple of perception and Will save points isn't pleasant, but it looks like it's the most eligible stat to dump.

It's not like Wis 13 is the end of the world for an Oracle, but it may not be the most optimized thing, even for scent with Clouded Vision. That said, it's not like it's a horrible choice, so it's still a good option.


nategar05 wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
nategar05 wrote:


As for the half-orc getting scent, that feat requires Wis 13, so it's quite expensive, although everything you just said is still true.

Not really? I mean Wis 13 is not that high if scent is what you really want. You shouldn't be dumping wis anyway since you're essentially ripping up your one good save.

And again there are plenty of workarounds for it not to mention it's as good as a non-curse to a melee oracle who will be mostly buffing himself and swinging at people in sight anyway. So you really don't even need scent it's jsut there if you want it. Heck even nature oracles can get a seeing eye dog.

I agree that it's not that hindering to melee types even without scent. I actually put it in one of the first posts of this topic (you may want to use ctrl f, it's a really long post.). However, to be really good at a thing or two, it's nice to find a stat to dump. Yes losing a couple of perception and Will save points isn't pleasant, but it looks like it's the most eligible stat to dump.

It's not like Wis 13 is the end of the world for an Oracle, but it may not be the most optimized thing, even for scent with Clouded Vision. That said, it's not like it's a horrible choice, so it's still a good option.

To expand on this: the guide is written from the perspective of a 15 point buy game, with details on how you might grow in higher point buys (namely, 20). The oracle is surprisingly MAD, more-so than I first thought when starting the guide. I might go back and edit those prepackaged point buys because I hate how low the constitution is. In a low point buy game you need to be able to dump something to truly optimize your stats.

I'd like to point out that I personally don't dump stats unless I'm forced to (pre-selected stat arrays I get to arrange) because I don't like the burden of roleplaying a poor stat. This goes double for mental. But the fact remains that in this sort of situation everyone has a dump stat, and Wisdom is the oracle's. In a higher point buy game, or one with rolled stats, it wouldn't be hard to justify a higher wisdom for this sort of thing. But in a 15 point buy you'd be downright silly to attempt it.


I'd argue that Int is more of a dump stat for most. After all what's going to end up saving your life more, a good will save or a couple of extra skill points? Even if you dumped it down to 7 you still end up with more skill points then a comparable cleric who does the same.


TarkXT wrote:
I'd argue that Int is more of a dump stat for most. After all what's going to end up saving your life more, a good will save or a couple of extra skill points? Even if you dumped it down to 7 you still end up with more skill points then a comparable cleric who does the same.

That is a fair point.

Though I guess it'd depend on individual playstyle:

Some people want their characters to be effective in combat and to be good at surviving. They'd increase their defenses as much as they could (HP, saving throws, etc.) and do what they have to do to make them effective at what they do (buffing, debuffing, controlling, blasting, etc.).

Others want their characters to be awesome at utility even if they have to take hits to the above things. They may value Int more because they don't see the point of having a character that's harder to kill if they have nothing to do outside of combat.

I can see both sides. I'm not emotionally attached to my characters. Since it only takes me a short time to build them and I enjoy building characters anyway, I have several backup characters for any one character that I'm currently playing. I told my GM I was tempted to create like 20 characters and have them ready. I'd dump Con to a 7 on all of them. They'd only last an encounter or two a piece but they sure would be awesome at other stuff while they last. He thought it was funny. YMMV. : P

PS My current Wizard has a Con of 14, so no I don't actually do that.


TarkXT wrote:
I'd argue that Int is more of a dump stat for most. After all what's going to end up saving your life more, a good will save or a couple of extra skill points? Even if you dumped it down to 7 you still end up with more skill points then a comparable cleric who does the same.

I can see that. There's still a lot of value in being able to pursue the big four knowledge skills so that you can identify your enemies. After all, if you know your enemy's weakness, you're halfway there to defeating it.

It really is a matter of playstyle though.

Liberty's Edge

I would point out that if the Oracle is going after eldritch heritage Half-Elf is more blue than human.


ShadowcatX wrote:
I would point out that if the Oracle is going after eldritch heritage Half-Elf is more blue than human.

I agree.


doctor_wu wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
I would point out that if the Oracle is going after eldritch heritage Half-Elf is more blue than human.
I agree.

I think more clarification here is required. What would you take for what bloodline and how far?


Just the first feat to get a familiar and then later get an improved familiar with telepathy to improve a deaf oracle was the idea I came across.

Laughing touch from the fey bloodline might be nice as well. I am not sure about taking past the first ability and this is only if I wanted a half elf oracle.

Those are the two I was thinking of.

Liberty's Edge

TarkXT wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
I would point out that if the Oracle is going after eldritch heritage Half-Elf is more blue than human.
I agree.
I think more clarification here is required. What would you take for what bloodline and how far?

It doesn't matter actually. A human who burns his bonus feat on skill focus as a prerequisite for eldritch heritage is much worse off (from a racial powers perspective) than a half-elf who just takes their basic skill focus.

Of course, that's ignoring the stupidly good human favored class bonus that makes all other races red in comparison.


TarkXT wrote:
doctor_wu wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
I would point out that if the Oracle is going after eldritch heritage Half-Elf is more blue than human.
I agree.
I think more clarification here is required. What would you take for what bloodline and how far?

The fact that Half Elves at that point get a bonus feat which is definately useful (Skill Focus (whatever for the bloodline), as well as low light vision, skill bonuses, and +2 to a LOT of relevant saves in addition to human flexible attributes is why they make the best Eldritch Heritage characters.


Human oracles can use there bonus feat for skill focus, and can still take the favored class bonus for extra spells, and will have one more skill point per level then a half elf.

The eldritch line is really good for a lot of oracles (pit-touched or orc for warriors, arcane for controllers and blasters, shadow isn't bad for enablers) but I don't see that a half-elf is gonna be stronger then a human in that role.


1. Skills: fly is useless, except for the heavens oracle or some oracle with polymorph power. Clerics and oracles use air walk, which doesn't require fly check.

2. Feat: why do you mention craft wand but not craft rod? Craft rod is like having all metamagic feat with only one feat. And there's also craft wondrous item...

3. Metamagic feat: bouncing is awful. If I cast a spell on A, that's because I want A to be affected, I don't care if B is affected when A resist. It's far from green.

4. Metamagic feat: persistent is blue for anyone who use spells with save. With only +2 level, it's the best ratio cost/efficiency.

5. Metamagic feat: quicken is blue also. Rods are great, but it's a move action to retrieve the rod you need, which negate the purpose of the rod. Except if you have always the rod in hand, but it's not always possible. eg: you're an oracle 11, warrior flavor, and you always have a greatsword in hand; a rod won't help you to cast quickened divine favor... eg 2: you use the caster's flavor, you have always in hand a rod of still spell in case you're paralyzed.

6. Ancestor oracle: ancestral weapon. A standard action to summon it, minute-per-level duration (which means you can't summon it before entering the dungeon; only during the first round of combat), and a weaker enhancement bonus than greater magic weapon. Unless I'm missing something, it's one of the worst revelation ever.

7. ancestor oracle: blood of heroes and spirit of the warrior are very good; at level 11, a round of buff should look like this: spirit of the warrior (your BAB is now +11/+6/+1, we don't care about the other boni), blood of heroes (+2 to hit and damages), quickened divine favor (+3 to hit and damages).

8. Battle oracle: combat healer is one of the best revelation. Healing in combat isn't a great choice because it cost a standard action. What did you intend to do with your swift action anyway? Casting a quickened divine favor each round?

9. Battle oracle: maneuver mastery isn't blue. It can be useful, but it's far from a must-have. Trip doesn't work on flying monsters (which means: it doesn't work at all at level 10; if the monster doesn't fly, why do you go in melee range instead of killing it while air walking or ignoring it?), disarm/sunder works only on monsters with weapon, almost all the other maneuvers don't work if the enemy is two size larger than you. At least you have access to enlarge, but anyway your spells are almost always a better choice if you want some control. Basically, maneuver mastery works only in humanoid-heavy campaign, and even then, it's not a must-have.

10. Heavens oracle: Lure of the heaven is useless. You have overland fly as a bonus spell.

11. Heavens oracle: Mantle of moonlight. Force rage on non-willing target. No save. With awesome display, that's the most powerful ability of a heavens oracle.

12. Life oracle: life link. It's a way to distribute the damages among the party. For your channel ability. It doesn't change the rating, but it could be worth mentioning.


Mostly replying to Gat. And by mostly, I mean only.

RAW, it seems like you can craft metamagic rods without knowing the metamagic feats. This seems pretty off to me. I am not sure that it's the intent.

Depending on how the rod is made, quickdraw would allow you to grab any rod you need. Hint: always make it as a club.

Ancestral Weapon means you don't need to use gold on scrolls or take GMW. I mean, you still should. But minute per level is still firmly in the "do it before combat" camp of when to use. It's not horrible, and you are never without a weapon. At a ball without your weapons, and s!$& goes down? You're covered. Situational? Sure. But it's useful elsewhere as well.

The main benefit of Lure of Heavens isn't the fly, but the constant effect levitation. You don't need to spend resources on water walking, won't ever trip pressure plates, caltrops won't be a huge issue, rough terrain might not be an issue depending on characteristics, can move across lava easily...It's a great utility revelation that doesn't require you to expend spells or resources.

Most of my campaigns were humanoid-heavy. From all the posts I've read on the forums, it would seem that this is the norm, rather than the exception. So trip, and maneuver mastery, are still viable at higher levels.

Mantle of Moonlight is quite good. Castys can't cast when raging.


Cheapy wrote:
Ancestral Weapon means you don't need to use gold on scrolls or take GMW. I mean, you still should. But minute per level is still firmly in the "do it before combat" camp of when to use. It's not horrible, and you are never without a weapon. At a ball without your weapons, and s&!$ goes down? You're covered. Situational? Sure. But it's useful elsewhere as well.

If you don't have your weapon, grab a club and cast GMW. And minute per level is, in my experience, just too short, especially when you can't cast it again: it's useful when you have some rounds of pre-buff, but you can't cast it when you enter the dungeon.

Well, maybe ancestral weapon isn't the worst revelation, but it's not a powerful one.

Quote:
The main benefit of Lure of Heavens isn't the fly, but the constant effect levitation. You don't need to spend resources on water walking, won't ever trip pressure plates, caltrops won't be a huge issue, rough terrain might not be an issue depending on characteristics, can move across lava easily...It's a great utility revelation that doesn't require you to expend spells or resources.

With overland fly also you won't spend resources on water walking, won't trip pressure plates, won't walk on caltrops... And you will cast overland fly every morning, because that's what people with overland fly do (especially spontaneous casters with overland fly).

And lure of heavens cost you some resources. Namely, it cost you a revelation, which could be used for awesome display, moonlight mantle, star chart or moonlight bridge (as someone mentioned, it can be used as a wall of force...). You can change your known spells (which mean you can learn water walk at level 6, then forget it at level 8 and learn air walk, then forget it at level 10), not your revelation, and lure of heavens does almost nothing until level 5 and from level 10, and not much in-between.

Quote:
Most of my campaigns were humanoid-heavy. From all the posts I've read on the forums, it would seem that this is the norm, rather than the exception. So trip, and maneuver mastery, are still viable at higher levels.

It is viable in the majority of campaign, which doesn't means that it is a blue ability (blue means "must-have"; quicken spell isn't even blue in his ranking, and given the choice between the two, I'll always chose quicken). I don't even think it's a good ability: it's a viable ability, that's it.


I'm pretty sure that it's been clarified by someone at Paizo that moonlight bridge can't be used as a wall of force.

Something about there needing to be a gap to traverse. I'll link to it later.


Cheapy wrote:

I'm pretty sure that it's been clarified by someone at Paizo that moonlight bridge can't be used as a wall of force.

Something about there needing to be a gap to traverse. I'll link to it later.

I remember this too. Dont have a link, but I'm sure you're right.

Also, Fly is a great skill because Swift-Action Fly Revelations are the bee's-knees, especially if you took Lame.


Well, so not 100% official. But, the fluff of the ability is pretty clear that it's just a bridge. And it's only treated as a wall of force when attacked. It's not a wall of force.

It's a poorly worded ability that gets the munchkins excited about the fact that they might be able to get a Wall of Force at first level and be able to do it quite a few times per day without spending any spell slots.


Cheapy wrote:
It's a poorly worded ability that gets the munchkins excited about the fact that they might be able to get a Wall of Force at first level and be able to do it quite a few times per day without spending any spell slots.

Actually it doesn't change my point: even if moonlight bridge is useless, I still wouldn't take lure of heavens.

N1 Awesome display.
N3 Mantle of moonlight.
N7 Star chart.
N11 I don't know what, but not lure of the heavens since it's useless at this level (coat of many stars or dweller in the darkness, I guess).

The real munchkins' ability is awesome display, which doesn't suffer misinterpretation.

Note: I also think oracle's archetypes are retarded (they change the known spell and the revelation... that's the same as "taking an other mystery"), therefore I boycott them strongly. I won't ever take any of them or look at their powers, even if someone prove me that the most powerful character in pathfinder is an oracle with some archetype. But I guess that lure of the heavens can be useful for someone less stubborn than me, with an archetype which replace overland fly.


If you have a ten foot wide pit and have a fighter bull rush someone into it Moonlight bridge will be useful for trapping that enemy for a day long enough to take teh others out of combat. I am still pretty sure you can't climb through a bridge.


GâtFromKI wrote:
1. Skills: fly is useless, except for the heavens oracle or some oracle with polymorph power. Clerics and oracles use air walk, which doesn't require fly check.

Considering that you can't even take ranks in Fly without the ability to fly in some way that requires fly checks, this seems pretty obvious to me.

GâtFromKI wrote:
2. Feat: why do you mention craft wand but not craft rod? Craft rod is like having all metamagic feat with only one feat. And there's also craft wondrous item...

I'm generally not a fan of the craft feats because in most campaigns they equate to spending a feat for a discount. Even in a campaign that this isn't the case, prepared casters are far better crafters than you will be simply because they can have the spells required to craft. Yes, you can usually craft an item without the spell, but every one you're missing is a +5 to the DC, and you're not going to be awesome at spellcraft checks. Crafting metamagic rods without knowledge of metamagic is highly shady, but may be RAW. I'll have to look into this.

GâtFromKI wrote:
3. Metamagic feat: bouncing is awful. If I cast a spell on A, that's because I want A to be affected, I don't care if B is affected when A resist. It's far from green.

A spell that is resisted is a turn that's wasted. Sure, you really wanted to hit Enemy A, but when that fails (and it did) you can instead direct the spell at the enemy you were going to deal with next turn anyways.

GâtFromKI wrote:
4. Metamagic feat: persistent is blue for anyone who use spells with save. With only +2 level, it's the best ratio cost/efficiency.

You hit the nail on the nose. Spells that don't have any return on a successful save aren't going to be rated very high in my guide, which is where this feat is most useful. Plus, I rated this a green (good choice), but it's hardly a must have for any type of oracle.

GâtFromKI wrote:
5. Metamagic feat: quicken is blue also. Rods are great, but it's a move action to retrieve the rod you need, which negate the purpose of the rod. Except if you have always the rod in hand, but it's not always possible. eg: you're an oracle 11, warrior flavor, and you always have a greatsword in hand; a rod won't help you to cast quickened divine favor... eg 2: you use the caster's flavor, you have always in hand a rod of still spell in case you're paralyzed.

Actually, the real beauty of the rod is that it isn't using a spell four slots higher than itself. Warrior types will probably have a glove of storing for exactly the reason you mentioned. And even if you're still reduced to spending a move action to get the rod that's still always better than spending your standard action to cast a spell.

Quicken Spell becomes a good choice for metamagic at the same time that the rods become reasonably within your wealth by character level. I don't rate the feat poorly (it's green), but it's easy to get away with not having- especially if you don't pass 15th level.

GâtFromKI wrote:
6. Ancestor oracle: ancestral weapon. A standard action to summon it, minute-per-level duration (which means you can't summon it before entering the dungeon; only during the first round of combat), and a weaker enhancement bonus than greater magic weapon. Unless I'm missing something, it's one of the worst revelation ever.

You may have missed something, then. Ancestor oracles don't have a way to gain martial weapon proficiency outside of racial choices and dipping into another class. This ability automatically lets them have proficiency in whatever simple/martial weapon they create. The scaling enhancement bonus is clearly spelled out as inferior to other options in the guide, but it's not cutting into character wealth or using spells known. Additionally, you can summon whatever kind of weapon you want which is a great big wonderful bonus. And finally, yes, you'll likely spend your standard action to summon the weapon when your party doesn't see combat coming, but many groups are able to anticipate combat cast some of their longer duration buffs (minute+/level) before jumping into the fray.

GâtFromKI wrote:
7. ancestor oracle: blood of heroes and spirit of the warrior are very good; at level 11, a round of buff should look like this: spirit of the warrior (your BAB is now +11/+6/+1, we don't care about the other boni), blood of heroes (+2 to hit and damages), quickened divine favor (+3 to hit and damages).

Your tactic here is good for about 1 combat, since Spirit of the Warrior has a dismal duration. I've identified Blood of Heroes as a decent choice revisiting later on, but it's not as great and shiny as you make it out to be.

GâtFromKI wrote:
8. Battle oracle: combat healer is one of the best revelation. Healing in combat isn't a great choice because it cost a standard action. What did you intend to do with your swift action anyway? Casting a quickened divine favor each round?

At 10th level, sure, otherwise you're very likely spending a move action to get to the target (It's range: touch). I didn't mark it red because it's not useless, but the limited uses of this ability and the limitations on how much you can actually heal don't really build into a powerful ability.

GâtFromKI wrote:
9. Battle oracle: maneuver mastery isn't blue. It can be useful, but it's far from a must-have. Trip doesn't work on flying monsters (which means: it doesn't work at all at level 10; if the monster doesn't fly, why do you go in melee range instead of killing it while air walking or ignoring it?), disarm/sunder works only on monsters with weapon, almost all the other maneuvers don't work if the enemy is two size larger than you. At least you have access to enlarge, but anyway your spells are almost always a better choice if you want some control. Basically, maneuver mastery works only in humanoid-heavy campaign, and even then, it's not a must-have.

Just because it isn't useful against every single enemy every single time doesn't mean this ability isn't useful. Combat Maneuvers are an excellent form of battlefield control, and a must-have addition to the oracle who chooses to wade into melee. Oracles shouldn't be focused on damage, but rather debilitating her enemies and supporting her allies. Being able to disarm/trip/sunder is an excellent option when you're toe to toe with something mean.

I'm not really sure why you're talking about flying and ignoring creatures in a melee centered mystery, so I can't respond there.

GâtFromKI wrote:
10. Heavens oracle: Lure of the heaven is useless. You have overland fly as a bonus spell.

Cheapy touched on most of my points, but overland flight is a really good point (I'd missed that). It's hardly useless, though.

GâtFromKI wrote:
11. Heavens oracle: Mantle of moonlight. Force rage on non-willing target. No save. With awesome display, that's the most powerful ability of a heavens oracle.

I bumped it to green, simply because I'd missed the no-save bit. Mantle of Moonlight is hindered because on anything other than a caster this ability is a buff.

GâtFromKI wrote:
12. Life oracle: life link. It's a way to distribute the damages among the party. For your channel ability. It doesn't change the rating, but it could be worth mentioning.

I'm not sure what you mean here.


GâtFromKI wrote:

Note: I also think oracle's archetypes are retarded (they change the known spell and the revelation... that's the same as "taking an other mystery"), therefore I boycott them strongly. I won't ever take any of them or look at their powers, even if someone prove me that the most powerful character in pathfinder is an oracle with some archetype. But I guess that lure of the heavens can be useful for someone less stubborn than me, with an archetype which replace overland fly.

Currently playing a dual cursed nature oracle I would advice looking at the archetypes ;)

Misfortune is so good, I can´t even really discribe it. This alone would make it worthwhile, but trading charm animal for ill omen and speak with plants for bestow curse is very good as well. Loosing Barkskin and the skills kind of hurts, but even so, Misfortune more then makes up for this.

Maybe the archetypes are not that good for all mysteries, but trading more or less useless spells for usful ones and very useful abilities is worth a look.

Regarding crafting for oracles:
You can be quite good at this with the right revelations. As a nature oracle you can use Natural Divination to get a modifier which is often high enough to craft most stuff even without the spells and a not so great spellcraft mod.


Dela wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:

Note: I also think oracle's archetypes are retarded (they change the known spell and the revelation... that's the same as "taking an other mystery"), therefore I boycott them strongly. I won't ever take any of them or look at their powers, even if someone prove me that the most powerful character in pathfinder is an oracle with some archetype. But I guess that lure of the heavens can be useful for someone less stubborn than me, with an archetype which replace overland fly.

Currently playing a dual cursed nature oracle I would advice looking at the archetypes ;)

Misfortune is so good, I can´t even really discribe it. This alone would make it worthwhile, but trading charm animal for ill omen and speak with plants for bestow curse is very good as well. Loosing Barkskin and the skills kind of hurts, but even so, Misfortune more then makes up for this.

Maybe the archetypes are not that good for all mysteries, but trading more or less useless spells for usful ones and very useful abilities is worth a look.

After reviewing the Archetypes it seems that the dual-cursed oracle is the best of them. It's an additional debuff for two more revelations and access to two very powerful revelations. The rest of them are mediocre for those who aren't looking to combine the flavors of different mysteries, since it's pretty much your only way to do so.


You´re right, dual-cursed is better then the rest. But I wouldn´t disregard them per se. It´s worth a look if you don´t like the spells of your mystery and don´t need the skills.

Besides, another thing for Misfortune: As you are a creature yourself, you should be able to target yourself with it.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
I'm generally not a fan of the craft feats because in most campaigns they equate to spending a feat for a discount.

Why do you mention craft wand?

GâtFromKI wrote:
3. Metamagic feat: bouncing is awful. If I cast a spell on A, that's because I want A to be affected, I don't care if B is affected when A resist. It's far from green.

Anyway, bouncing spell doesn't compare with persistent spell.

  • Boucing spell: if your spell has no effect, you can use a swift action to redirect it on another target you didn't intend to affect in the first place. And it still can have no effect (since it didn't have any effect on the first target...). +1 level only.
  • Persistent spell: The target you want to affect make two save. It doesn't need the spell to have no effect, it doesn't consume any action, it doesn't redirect the spell on a random target... +2 level.

Actually, I can't think of any situation in which I would use bouncing. If I target a though creature and fear my spell has no effect, redirecting it on something else won't help and isn't worth the increase of level and the cost of my move action (since the casting becomes a complex action) and my swift action. If the target is weak, why would I increase the level of my spell with a metamagic feat?

Bouncing and persistent have the same ranking in your guide, that's just plain wrong: one is a must-have for some build, while the other is useless...

Quote:
Actually, the real beauty of the rod is that it isn't using a spell four slots higher than itself. Warrior types will probably have a glove of storing for exactly the reason you mentioned. And even if you're still reduced to spending a move action to get the rod that's still always better than spending your standard action to cast a spell.

A standard action to get the rod if you're haunted. Since haunted have have the highest ranking in your guide, you can't discard it.

But that's not the problem. Using your move action to retrieve the rod and your swift action to cast the spell is still less powerful than just using your swift action to cast. There's a reason why Quicken is the must-have-feat for any full-caster, and arguably for 2/3-spellcaster (with spell perfection, it's worth it), the oracle isn't an exception.

You give a blue ranking to toughness and extra revelation, but not to quicken? Oh please, come on... Is there any revelation more powerful than a quickened spell?

Quote:
You may have missed something, then. Ancestor oracles don't have a way to gain martial weapon proficiency outside of racial choices and dipping into another class. This ability automatically lets them have proficiency in whatever simple/martial weapon they create. The scaling enhancement bonus is clearly spelled out as inferior to other options in the guide, but it's not cutting into character wealth or using spells known. Additionally, you can summon whatever kind of weapon you want which is a great big wonderful bonus. And finally, yes, you'll likely spend your standard action to summon the weapon when your party doesn't see combat coming, but many groups are able to anticipate combat cast some of their longer duration buffs (minute+/level) before jumping into the fray.

And what shiny weapon am I missing?

You rate ancestral weapon better than blood of heroes, while the character is less efficient with a summoned falcata than with a morgenstern and blood of heroes, and blood of heroes activate as a move action. If you want weapon with special abilities, longspear and sickle are simple weapons, and non-proficiency penalty is only -4 (that's easily compensated with a GMW and blood of heroes or spirit of the warrior).

I would find ancestral weapon interesting if it gave some proficiency. As it is, I can't think of any weapon which justify the cost in term of revelations and actions, and the weakness of the summoned weapon ("I'm level 10, I summon a +1 weapon" sounds like a joke).

Quote:
At 10th level, sure, otherwise you're very likely spending a move action to get to the target (It's range: touch). I didn't mark it red because it's not useless, but the limited uses of this ability and the limitations on how much you can actually heal don't really build into a powerful ability.

The target is "you". You're a battle oracle, you're in melee range.

Anyway, the revelation can't be taken before level 7. It means that you can take the revelation at level 7, which is only 3 level away from level 10, or at level 11 or higher, which is higher than level 10. you can't discard it because "it is only useful after level 10".

Quote:
Just because it isn't useful against every single enemy every single time doesn't mean this ability isn't useful. Combat Maneuvers are an excellent form of battlefield control, and a must-have addition to the oracle who chooses to wade into melee. Oracles shouldn't be focused on damage, but rather debilitating her enemies and supporting her allies. Being able to disarm/trip/sunder is an excellent option when you're toe to toe with something mean.

Just because it can be useful doesn't mean it is a must-have and deserve a blue rating.

And Combat maneuvers aren't good control. Disarm/sunder works on less than 10% of the bestiary, trip can't work after level 10 because flying creatures are immune (and you don't have to go at melee range of non-flying). Even when you can attempt the maneuver and you have the revelation, it still haven't more chance of success than a spell (without optimisation, just a regular spell) because of the absurd CMD of many monsters (while generally, at least one of the three save is quite low). And even if you land the maneuver, the effect is still less efficient than a spell: a tripped creature simply stand up or attack from prone, while a paralysed creature is paralysed.

Combat maneuvers are viable control in many campaign. It make the revelation a usable ability, not a blue ability.

Quote:
I'm not really sure why you're talking about flying and ignoring creatures in a melee centered mystery, so I can't respond there.

I simply don't understand how trip can be useful after level 10.

Quote:
I bumped it to green, simply because I'd missed the no-save bit. Mantle of Moonlight is hindered because on anything other than a caster this ability is a buff.

Which means it can be used as a buff on your companions. How does it hinder the revelation?

Anyway, you won't use it on your companions. You don't have that many use per day, and it's a debuff which prevent caster from casting, no save. It's a debuff which prevent caster from casting, no save. It's a debuff which prevent caster from casting, no save. Is there a more powerful caster-debuff? Even if you only encounter caster every other day, it's still worth it.

The range is touch, but:

  1. You're an oracle. You can endure melee range.
  2. You're an oracle. You're able to go at melee range (even if the opponent is fying, invisible, anything, you can counter his defenses).
  3. You're an oracle. You're able to hit with a melee touch attack.

I see no reason to not have this revelation at level 7.

Quote:
Quote:
12. Life oracle: life link. It's a way to distribute the damages among the party. For your channel ability. It doesn't change the rating, but it could be worth mentioning.
I'm not sure what you mean here.

My english skill is too weak... Let's use an example.

A level 3 Life oracle and his friends are adventuring together; the Life oracl has channel and Life link. His friend lose 20 HP, the oracle isn't wounded. If he use his channel ability, he will cure a total of 2-12 HP.

If he use life link during 2 rounds, he lose 10 HP and his friend is cured of 10 HP; now his channel ability cure both of them, and will cure a total of 4-20 HP (2*2-10).

Liberty's Edge

Andy Ferguson wrote:
and can still take the favored class bonus for extra spells,

This alone makes every other race red in comparison to humans. Same way it does on sorcerer. Since other races aren't rated red, I can't help but think this is largely being ignored. Seriously, its 10 feats over 20 levels, as opposed to say the hp every level which is 1 feat. Or the skill point every level which if you have psionics unleashed is 1 feat.

Take this out of the equation for a minute and compare:

Quote:
and will have one more skill point per level then a half elf.

to everything a half-elf will get, and tell me which one comes out ahead.

Low light vision, elf blood, elven immunities, keen senses, multi-talented (probably not used) and an extra language.

vs.

A skill point a level.

Which would you pick?


ShadowcatX wrote:


Take this out of the equation for a minute and compare:

Why? It's in the equation.


GâtFromKI wrote:
Why do you mention craft wand?

I mention craft wand for exactly the reason I state in it's review:

"A wand of Cure Light Wounds is absolutely the most efficient way to keep your party healed. Not in combat of course, but once you’re picking up the pieces. If your campaign doesn’t have a magic item mart with easy access to such wands then grabbing this feat is a solid choice. If it does, laugh mockingly at this feat and go get something fun."

GâtFromKI wrote:
Bouncing spell vs. Persistent Spell

I really don't have anything more to say on this. Both feats exist as a way to help with making your spells stick. One lets the spell jump to another enemy for a lower cost, while the other requires the enemy to make two saves at a higher cost. I see them both as equally useful because they both fill the same role: make your spells more effective. Neither are blue for most casters.

GâtFromKI wrote:

A standard action to get the rod if you're haunted. Since haunted have have the highest ranking in your guide, you can't discard it.

But that's not the problem. Using your move action to retrieve the rod and your swift action to cast the spell is still less powerful than just using your swift action to cast. There's a reason why Quicken is the must-have-feat for any full-caster, and arguably for 2/3-spellcaster (with spell perfection, it's worth it), the oracle isn't an exception.

You give a blue ranking to toughness and extra revelation, but not to quicken? Oh please, come on... Is there any revelation more powerful than a quickened spell?

Quicken is green because it doesn't become an effective choice of metamagic until the mid teens. Using your highest level spell slots to cast 1st and 2nd level spells is hardly a good use of resources. It's green because it's a good choice, but it's not blue because many characters can safely avoid it.

GâtFromKI wrote:

The target is "you". You're a battle oracle, you're in melee range.

Anyway, the revelation can't be taken before level 7. It means that you can take the revelation at level 7, which is only 3 level away from level 10, or at level 11 or higher, which is higher than level 10. you can't discard it because "it is only useful after level 10".

I don't discard it. I've rated it as orange, which as noted in the start of the guide is to mean "A mediocre, or uncommonly useful option. Generally not worth it." In this case it is an uncommonly useful option, and thus deserving of its rating.

GâtFromKI wrote:

Just because it can be useful doesn't mean it is a must-have and deserve a blue rating.

And Combat maneuvers aren't good control. Disarm/sunder works on less than 10% of the bestiary, trip can't work after level 10 because flying creatures are immune (and you don't have to go at melee range of non-flying). Even when you can attempt the maneuver and you have the revelation, it still haven't more chance of success than a spell (without optimisation, just a regular spell) because of the absurd CMD of many monsters (while generally, at least one of the three save is quite low). And even if you land the maneuver, the effect is still less efficient than a spell: a tripped creature simply stand up or attack from prone, while a paralysed creature is paralysed.

Combat maneuvers are viable control in many campaign. It make the revelation a usable ability, not a blue ability.

You clearly don't see the value of the combat maneuvers, and that's totally fair from your perspective. Combat maneuvers are here to give you additional options beyond your spells, particularly because any save DCs of a melee oriented oracle are going to be rather low. The value of trip is significant: it requires a move action to stand back up, thus limiting its range of actions to a standard, and it also provokes opportunity attacks from all adjacent enemies.

GâtFromKI wrote:
I simply don't understand how trip can be useful after level 10.

Trip only fails against three types of opponents: those who can fly, those who lack legs, and those larger than you by two size categories. The assumption that every single enemy past level 10 falls into at least one of those categories is somewhat mind boggling.

GâtFromKI wrote:
Argument on Mantle of Moonlight.

You actually hit my main argument against Mantle of Moonlight in your post: "Even if you only encounter caster every other day, it's still worth it." Something that's only useful on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays isn't a blue option. It's green, to be sure, because it's very powerful. But it's not blue.

GâtFromKI wrote:

My english skill is too weak... Let's use an example.

A level 3 Life oracle and his friends are adventuring together; the Life oracl has channel and Life link. His friend lose 20 HP, the oracle isn't wounded. If he use his channel ability, he will cure a total of 2-12 HP.

If he use life link during 2 rounds, he lose 10 HP and his friend is cured of 10 HP; now his channel ability cure both of them, and will cure a total of 4-20 HP (2*2-10).

That's a solid point.

Before this goes any further I want to point out something in the guide you may have missed. It's a bit of a preamble, but I wrote it in an attempt to avoid this sort of miscommunication.

"Know Thyself, at the very end wrote:
The most important thing to take away from this guide is that this is just a series of opinions. My opinions, to be precise. Most every opinion here is formed based on math, statistical probability, and core assumptions of the Pathfinder system. Even still, only you can know your particular game, and it’s up to you to judge and assess the information here according to your situation. I only hope to offer one particular viewpoint of the game.

Later on, in part two of the guide, I touch on the usefulness of powerful abilities. This refers specifically to spells, but holds true to most anything:

Understanding Magic wrote:
Just because it’s powerful doesn’t mean you want it: This is perhaps the biggest issue when evaluating the cleric spell list from the vantage point of an oracle, and something I think a lot of people forget. You only have a few known spells at any given level, so it’s up to you to make them count. You need to avoid spells that are super-crazy-powerful on Tuesdays because that’s wasted space for every other day of the week. In big broad terms: if you can’t find a use for a spell at least once a day, preferably more than once, it probably doesn’t belong on your list. Leave situational spells to the casters who don’t pay a premium for the ability to learn a spell, or just grab a scroll.


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ShadowcatX wrote:
This alone makes every other race red in comparison to humans. Same way it does on sorcerer. Since other races aren't rated red, I can't help but think this is largely being ignored. Seriously, its 10 feats over 20 levels, as opposed to say the hp every level which is 1 feat. Or the skill point every level which if you have psionics unleashed is 1 feat.

This is a pretty uneducated thing to say, and I feel it's worth discussing.

First of all, the wizard spell list is better than the cleric spell list in almost every way. Doing a direct comparison of the two will have the wizard side winning every time, even if you're only comparing the top 10%.

The cleric spell list is marred by an abundance of highly situation spells or spells of marginal use on a day-to-day basis. It's got some real gems, but those aren't hard to pick up with the standard allotment of oracle spells known. This is especially true of warrior types who won't have the spell DCs to make a lot of the good spells worth it.

What the human oracle has over every other oracle is the ability to pick up some of those situation spells in a pretty low cost way. This can be excellent for small parties lacking a cleric/wizard, but when a prepared caster enters the mix (especially a cleric) the use here is even less. Why get those highly situation spells when an ally can cover that base for you?

Saying that every other race is worthless because of this feature is pretty similar to saying that every race without darkvision is worthless if you enjoy dungeon delving. It's an advantage, sure, but it's easily overcome in common setups.

And for the record, it may be 10 feats over 20 levels, but it's ten really crappy feats.

Shadow Lodge

Slightly offtopic but regarding blaster Oracle: am I correct in that Elemental Spell only changes the damage type, but does not change the spell descriptor to the element type? Relevant for PF Society Organized Play feat Devotee of Sun Goddess, which gives +Cha dmg to fire/good spells. And to some other descriptor-based bonuses.

Very nice guide, thank you.


Iridian wrote:

Slightly offtopic but regarding blaster Oracle: am I correct in that Elemental Spell only changes the damage type, but does not change the spell descriptor to the element type? Relevant for PF Society Organized Play feat Devotee of Sun Goddess, which gives +Cha dmg to fire/good spells. And to some other descriptor-based bonuses.

Very nice guide, thank you.

It doesn't explicitly say so in the Elemental Spell feat, but yes, it'll add the descriptor to the spell.

The bolded bit is relevant.

Magic Rules, SRD wrote:
Fire: Fire effects make the target hotter by creating fire, directly heating the target with magic or friction. Lava, steam, and boiling water all deal fire damage. Fire effects can also cause confusion, dizziness, exhaustion, fatigue, nausea, unconsciousness, and death. Spells that manipulate fire or conjure creatures from fire-dominant planes or with the fire subtype should have the fire descriptor.

Shadow Lodge

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

It doesn't explicitly say so in the Elemental Spell feat, but yes, it'll add the descriptor to the spell.

The bolded bit is relevant.

Oh nice, thanks! When I saw the devotee feat, I just knew I had to make a blaster that employs it. I think oracle is best suited for that, due to the feat's very limited scope (divine, fire). Even though you say blaster oracles are less than optimal. :)

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