Channeling the Cosmos: A guide to the Oracle


Advice

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Color spray: You´re right, mixed that one up. Nontheless I think Misfortune is awesome for everyone.

Regarding "being silly":
Yes, the archetypes could have been Mysteries as well, but then you couldn´t mix abilities to better fit a character concept. Sure, your example is right, but look at it at lvl 10 or so. You can have "stonish" revelations by then, mixed with "possed style" stuff.

More possiblities to mix and match abilities to build the character you want are always a good thing.


If you really think what you wrote, why do you bother with mysteries at all?

Archetype: mix and match oracle
Mystery: the mix and match oracle doesn't chose a mystery.
Revelation: at level 1, 3, 7, 11, 15 and 19, the mix and match oracle gain a revelation of his choice. Each time he can chose a revelation, he can chose it from any mystery, or from an archetype.
Bonus spell: at level 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, the mix and match oracle gains a bonus spells known of his choice from any spell list.

Variant archetype: hex mix and match oracle
The hex mix and match oracle can gain hex instead of revelations.

etc. If more possibilities = always a good thing, then don't bother with restrictive choices at all. Just let anyone choose any power from any list.


If I could, I would. But rules are there for a reason.

I don´t think this discussion is going anywhere, as you clearly have your point of view you are not going to change.

Liberty's Edge

KrispyXIV wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
@ShadowcatX: I can't find this Experimental Spellcaster feat. What book is it in?

Its a Words of Power thing. I did a doubletake looking for it too.

It lets you pick up a single Effect Word and add it to your list.

Actually it adds a single effect word, the boost meta word, and all target words to your spells known. Boost is a real catch here because you can use it just as often as a regular word caster can use his metawords.

A boosted summon servitor is functionally the same as a summon monster IV summoning lantern archons. 1d4+1 of those critters remains viable for quite a while, especially in a 3rd level slot. Later on you can double up on them by casting the word twice in a higher level slot and boosting both words.

I'm not finding rather or not adding a metaword to a word spell increases the casting time for a spontaneous caster, if it does not, then it also takes place as a standard action.


ShadowcatX wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
@ShadowcatX: I can't find this Experimental Spellcaster feat. What book is it in?

Its a Words of Power thing. I did a doubletake looking for it too.

It lets you pick up a single Effect Word and add it to your list.

Actually it adds a single effect word, the boost meta word, and all target words to your spells known. Boost is a real catch here because you can use it just as often as a regular word caster can use his metawords.

A boosted summon servitor is functionally the same as a summon monster IV summoning lantern archons. 1d4+1 of those critters remains viable for quite a while, especially in a 3rd level slot. Later on you can double up on them by casting the word twice in a higher level slot and boosting both words.

I'm not finding rather or not adding a metaword to a word spell increases the casting time for a spontaneous caster, if it does not, then it also takes place as a standard action.

So I dont really get Words of Power very well, but trying to piece it together; Servitor line of spells uses the 'Selected' target word. Checking the 'Selected' target word, I see that boosting it adds 3 levels to the level of the effect word.

So... its a sixth level spell to cast a fifth level equivalent (d4+1 creatures is a two level upward adjustment, right? Therefore Summon Monster V), or have I missed something about this that makes it not incredibly terrible?


InVinoVeritas wrote:
Note that Bleeding Wounds scales with level, so you'll be doing more damage with it at higher levels (not much more, but whatever). More importantly, though, it's best to share the love with multiple creatures with this spell; take a level of Cleric and spam negative energy channels. Have a Spell Storing weapon available to cast Inflict on whoever you attack. If you're fighting a single opponent, it's not as helpful, but it's great against a horde of mooks.

This is great with a little imagination....

* Positively cycled Oracle surrounded by undead blows one positive channel followed by Invisibility to Undead

* Negatively cycled Oracle attacked by non-darkvision living angry mob blows one negative channel followed by Darkness

Basically bleed damage aoe kills slow and does not require you can see or reach your target - so slow down you enemy with something simple and get real bang for your buck. Few fights require you win RIGHT NOW - later (and cheaper....) is FINE in many cases


GâtFromKI wrote:
speed never reduced from emcumbrance =/= speed never reduced from armor.

:

www.d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Encumbrance comes in two parts: encumbrance by armor and encumbrance by total weight. (...) Encumbrance by Armor: A character's armor determines his maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, armor check penalty, speed, and running speed.

So again: How does an oracle of battle in medium or heavy armor get a base speed of 15ft.?


Turgan wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
speed never reduced from emcumbrance =/= speed never reduced from armor.

:

www.d20pfsrd.com wrote:
Encumbrance comes in two parts: encumbrance by armor and encumbrance by total weight. (...) Encumbrance by Armor: A character's armor determines his maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, armor check penalty, speed, and running speed.
So again: How does an oracle of battle in medium or heavy armor get a base speed of 15ft.?

Behold! The amazingness of reading the lame curse in its entirety!

"Lame: One of your legs is permanently wounded, reducing your base land speed by 10 feet if your base speed is 30 feet or more. If your base speed is less than 30 feet, your speed is reduced by 5 feet. Your speed is never reduced due to encumbrance. At 5th level, you are immune to the fatigued condition (but not exhaustion). At 10th level, your speed is never reduced by armor. At 15th level, you are immune to the exhausted condition."

Ignoring the speed reduction of armor is an explicit benefit gained at 10th level from the curse. This is a different benefit from ignoring movement reduction due to carried encumbrance; in fairness, the curse could be more clear on this when describing the initial benefits of the curse.

However, if we dont simply ignore the parts of the curse that come later in the description, its pretty obvious how it works.


Thank you for the answer, KrispyXIV.

I read the text, but was sure that armor encumbers and thus reduces the base speed. So I ignored the later part - maybe wishful thinking.

Liberty's Edge

KrispyXIV wrote:

So I dont really get Words of Power very well, but trying to piece it together; Servitor line of spells uses the 'Selected' target word. Checking the 'Selected' target word, I see that boosting it adds 3 levels to the level of the effect word.

So... its a sixth level spell to cast a fifth level equivalent (d4+1 creatures is a two level upward adjustment, right? Therefore Summon Monster V), or have I missed something about this that makes it not incredibly terrible?

You're correct actually, good catch. I didn't get that you had to boost the target word, which then increased the spell level, I thought you just boosted the effect word itself. Pity. Still a way to get a spell added to a list and standard action summoning, but not nearly as good as I thought.

*scraps that character concept*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Wasum wrote:

Just to make sure: as long as you're no melee-oracle (and maybe even then) human is sososososo much better than any other race. 17 additional spells for free is just amazing and the most important thing a spontaneous caster could get.

A badly built one perhaps, or one who can't seem to find his thematic spell focus. There are other options, which become very viable when you don't try to play an oracle like a wizard.


LazarX wrote:
Wasum wrote:

Just to make sure: as long as you're no melee-oracle (and maybe even then) human is sososososo much better than any other race. 17 additional spells for free is just amazing and the most important thing a spontaneous caster could get.

A badly built one perhaps, or one who can't seem to find his thematic spell focus. There are other options, which become very viable when you don't try to play an oracle like a wizard.

Or plays a thematic focus that requires lots of spells to make work. But thankfully even then you honestly don't need that many levels of human favored class spells.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
Wasum wrote:

Just to make sure: as long as you're no melee-oracle (and maybe even then) human is sososososo much better than any other race. 17 additional spells for free is just amazing and the most important thing a spontaneous caster could get.

A badly built one perhaps, or one who can't seem to find his thematic spell focus. There are other options, which become very viable when you don't try to play an oracle like a wizard.

I think the human bonus really shines for the enabler oracle, where you really are trying to buff the snot out of your party (or remove the debuffs) Since a lot of those spells either stack, or are situational, you end up wanting (not needing, but wanting) a broad spell list.

Shadow Lodge

I've been looking over the spell lists for a Flame Oracle, and determined that for the most part, Spell Focus (Evocation) is a better deal than Elemental Focus (Fire).

The only non-evocation fire spells that require a saving throw that the Flame Oracle can get are Glyph of Warding (as a Blast Glyph; but in that case, just use a Fireball Spell Glyph instead--but you're really learning Glyph as an oracle?), Fire Seeds (in holly berry bomb form only), and Incendiary Cloud. On the other hand, there are useful evocations that the oracle can choose that can benefit from Spell Focus, like Searing Light, and since the oracle can take Elemental Spell to change the damage descriptor (recommended against some opponents, of course), Spell Focus still functions in these cases.


InVinoVeritas wrote:
...and since the oracle can take Elemental Spell to change the damage descriptor...

Does Elemental Spell change descriptors on a spell? It certainly doens't say so in the description.

Is that a general magic rule? Or is it just being assumed as a house rule?

Shadow Lodge

KrispyXIV wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:
...and since the oracle can take Elemental Spell to change the damage descriptor...

Does Elemental Spell change descriptors on a spell? It certainly doens't say so in the description.

Is that a general magic rule? Or is it just being assumed as a house rule?

Perhaps I misspoke when I said that the spell descriptor changes. However, it doesn't matter, because the Elemental Focus feat affects the DC based on the type of energy damage, not the spell descriptor.


InVinoVeritas wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
InVinoVeritas wrote:
...and since the oracle can take Elemental Spell to change the damage descriptor...

Does Elemental Spell change descriptors on a spell? It certainly doens't say so in the description.

Is that a general magic rule? Or is it just being assumed as a house rule?

Perhaps I misspoke when I said that the spell descriptor changes. However, it doesn't matter, because the Elemental Focus feat affects the DC based on the type of energy damage, not the spell descriptor.

So then, is there any value in using elemental spell to expand the usefulness of Elemental Focus by 'forcing' it to apply outside its normal spells?

Shadow Lodge

KrispyXIV wrote:
So then, is there any value in using elemental spell to expand the usefulness of Elemental Focus by 'forcing' it to apply outside its normal spells?

I don't think so. The greatest value for Elemental Spell is so that if all you have are fireballs, but you're fighting efreeti, you can make them cold-balls instead. A cold-ball doesn't receive the DC bonus from Elemental Focus, but it still does receive the DC bonus from Spell Focus.

ETA: I think the big thing for folks like the Flame Oracle, is that they've got lots of fire, but not a lot of anything else. They don't really need to change everything else into fire, but they benefit from changing fire into everything else.


InVinoVeritas wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
So then, is there any value in using elemental spell to expand the usefulness of Elemental Focus by 'forcing' it to apply outside its normal spells?
I don't think so. The greatest value for Elemental Spell is so that if all you have are fireballs, but you're fighting efreeti, you can make them cold-balls instead. A cold-ball doesn't receive the DC bonus from Elemental Focus, but it still does receive the DC bonus from Spell Focus.

I kindof doubt it too, but I figured I'd put the question out there. The real killing issue here is spontaneous casting; you can't even make Cold Ice Strike fire to benefit from Elemental Focus (for example) without losing the trait that makes it good, because it becomes a Full Round Action. Its really bad when you go from Swift > Full, but its always pretty bad to go to that Full Round.

I just figured I'd ask the question because on the internet, you never know what someone may see that you missed :)


On the subject of human favored class bonuses: My personal opinion here is that the human favored class bonus is really great for oracles who are trying to pull the weight of a divine caster along with playing their own concept. The cleric list isn't fantastic, but it's got a lot of spells you want for one reason or another (just not everyday). Having the ability to add a few additional spells to the list is a nice perk for some characters, a necessity for others, and may be ignored entirely by the rest. The value of this is entirely based on character concept, party makeup, and character level. Low level spells just aren't great.

Elemental Spell: By RAW it certainly reads as if the spells will gain/replace the elemental descriptor. It doesn't explicitly state this, though.

Fire Descriptor, under Magic in the SRD wrote:
Spells that manipulate fire or conjure creatures from fire-dominant planes or with the fire subtype should have the fire descriptor.


The rule of thumb is that the descriptors always match the elemental damage, even if the ability doesn't explicitly say so. If you are dealing cold damage with a spell, you are in fact using a cold spell.


ShadowcatX wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:

So I dont really get Words of Power very well, but trying to piece it together; Servitor line of spells uses the 'Selected' target word. Checking the 'Selected' target word, I see that boosting it adds 3 levels to the level of the effect word.

So... its a sixth level spell to cast a fifth level equivalent (d4+1 creatures is a two level upward adjustment, right? Therefore Summon Monster V), or have I missed something about this that makes it not incredibly terrible?

You're correct actually, good catch. I didn't get that you had to boost the target word, which then increased the spell level, I thought you just boosted the effect word itself. Pity. Still a way to get a spell added to a list and standard action summoning, but not nearly as good as I thought.

*scraps that character concept*

Well, it's not TERRIBLE. After all, summons are normally whole-round casts. Doing this is essentially casting a Rapid Summon Monster V right?


Just wanted to throw in that Clerics/Oracles get Spiritual Weapon/Spiritual Ally as [Force] spells, so there are some reasonable (though not great) options for Toppling Spell.

A Toppling Spiritual Weapon is a pretty decent persistent battlefield control for a 3rd level spell, and I've seen a Toppling Spiritual Ally be pretty amusing as well at higher levels with its multiple attacks and ability to AOO trip.

It's no Toppling Magic Missile, but it's usable.

Scarab Sages

TarkXT wrote:
Or plays a thematic focus that requires lots of spells to make work. But thankfully even then you honestly don't need that many levels of human favored class spells.

I agree wholeheartedly. The thematic focus should not be limited by class alone. If you are playing an Oracle who casts a lot of spells that doesn't mean that you should have just played a straight caster.


Well, let me add "when playing up to high levels". At low-levels other races do quite good as well.


Also, for the Waves Oracle, Freezing Spells revelation, there is Cold Ice Strike, which is a solid spell on it's own.


The guide is generally well thought our but a blasty ability which uses Fort save being crap?

:I

Use it against magic users who have useless Fort saves and low HP see the look on their face when they can't counterspell it.

Use it against Monks who are used to dancing through such things with Imp Evasion. They will be crying.

Things are not as useless in all respects as indicated.


Caliburn101 wrote:

The guide is generally well thought our but a blasty ability which uses Fort save being crap?

:I

Use it against magic users who have useless Fort saves and low HP see the look on their face when they can't counterspell it.

Use it against Monks who are used to dancing through such things with Imp Evasion. They will be crying.

Things are not as useless in all respects as indicated.

My point here wasn't that fortitude saving throws are crap to go against, but rather that more often than not your enemy will have a really good fortitude save. Obviously there are exceptions to this. However, going with the CR 8 creatures (because why not?) we get:

creatue (best save / worst save)
Any CR 8 Dragon* (fort, ref / ref, will)
Animate Dream (will / ref)
Axiomite (will / fort)
Behir (fort / will)
Bodak (will / ref)
Dark Naga (ref / fort)
Denizen of Leng (fort, ref / will)
Destrachan (will / ref)
Dire Tiger (fort / will)
Efreeti, Genie (ref / fort)
Erinyes (ref / will)
Giant Octopus (ref / will)
Giant Slug (fort / ref)
Giant Tarantula Spider (fort / will)
Glass Golem (immune to magic)
Goliath Stag Beetle (fort / will)
Gorgon (fort / ref)
Gray Render (fort / will)
Greater Shadow (ref / fort)
Hydrodaemon (fort / will)
Intellect Devourer (ref, will / fort)
Lamia Matriarch (ref / fort)
Marsh Giant (fort / ref)
Mihstu (fort, ref / will)
Moonflower (fort / ref)
Nabasu (all saves equal)
Neh-Thalggu (will / ref)
Ogre Mage (fort / ref)
Quickwood (fort / ref)
Shantak (fort / will)
Sphinx (fort / ref)
Stone Giant (fort / ref)
Tenebrous Worm (fort / ref)
Treant (fort / ref)
Triceratops (fort / will)
Tylosaurus (fort / will)

*Very young Silver Dragon is unique with a high will and low reflex.

And if your DM is the type to throw character classes at you, let's look at those:

Fort strong: alchemist, barbarian, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, gunslinger, inquisitor, magus, monk, paladin, ranger
Fort weak: bard, rogue, oracle, sorcerer, summoner, witch, wizard

Reflex strong: alchemist, bard, gunslinger, monk, ranger, rogue
Reflex weak: barbarian, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, magus, paladin, oracle, sorcerer, summoner, witch, wizard

Will strong: bard, cleric, druid, inquisitor, magus, monk, paladin, oracle, sorcerer, summoner, witch, wizard
Will weak: alchemist, cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, ranger, rogue
Other: when raging a barbarian is roughly between strong and weak will saves.

Now, obviously, when you're casting offensive magic of any sort you want to target their lowest saving throw to ensure your best possible chance at success. When combining all of this information we get the following. Keep in mind that I combined all of the dragons into a single unit in an attempt not to skew the data too much.

Vs. Monsters
Fortitude is the best save: 22 times
Fortitude is the worst save: 6 times
Reflex is the best save: 9 times
Reflex is the worst save: 15 times
Will is the best save: 6 times
Will is the worst save: 14 times

Vs. Character Classes
Fortitude is a strong save: 12 times
Fortitude is a weak save: 7 times
Reflex is a strong save: 6 times
Reflex is a weak save: 13 times
Will is a strong save: 12 times
Will is a weak save: 6 times

Characters are clearly more complex because it's difficult to determine what their strongest save will be due to feats, gear, and stat allocation. Those should be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyways, to truly sum up the data we can see that in a random encounter with a CR 8 monster (treating all dragons as 1 entity, and ignoring the two hedge cases of magic immunity & equal saves) the following is true:

  • Fortitude will be the monster's strongest save approximately 64% of the time, and the weakest save approximately 17% of the time.
  • Reflex will be the monster's strongest save approximately 26% of the time, and the weakest save approximately 44% of the time.
  • Will will be the monster's strongest save approximately 17% of the time, and the weakest save approximately 41% of the time.

I hope that helps clear some things up. It pretty much holds true to what I discussed under "Saving Throws Suck" in part 2 of the guide.


Pathian wrote:

Just wanted to throw in that Clerics/Oracles get Spiritual Weapon/Spiritual Ally as [Force] spells, so there are some reasonable (though not great) options for Toppling Spell.

A Toppling Spiritual Weapon is a pretty decent persistent battlefield control for a 3rd level spell, and I've seen a Toppling Spiritual Ally be pretty amusing as well at higher levels with its multiple attacks and ability to AOO trip.

It's no Toppling Magic Missile, but it's usable.

The problem with Spiritual Weapon is that it specifically says it uses your Wis modifier, which probably sucks or at least isn't good. If it was my game I'd say that it was designed to use Wis when it was a Cleric only spell and so it was unnecessary to say it was your casting stat that it used. As such I think RAI would use Cha for Oracles, but that's not RAW. Check with your DM. Spiritual Ally also says Wis, so YMMV.

Pathian wrote:
Also, for the Waves Oracle, Freezing Spells revelation, there is Cold Ice Strike, which is a solid spell on it's own.

That's true, but a line is usually not the ideal shape for a blast. If you're an ice blaster it's most definitely the way to go though. Well, that or Flame Oracle with Elemental Spell (Cold)(I know I'm obsessed with that. : P ). Though that doesn't give the Freezing Spell Revelation.


nategar05 wrote:
Pathian wrote:
Also, for the Waves Oracle, Freezing Spells revelation, there is Cold Ice Strike, which is a solid spell on it's own.
That's true, but a line is usually not the ideal shape for a blast. If you're an ice blaster it's most definitely the way to go though. Well, that or Flame Oracle with Elemental Spell (Cold)(I know I'm obsessed with that. : P ). Though that doesn't give the Freezing Spell Revelation.

Man, that Freezing Spell revelation is so awesome it hurts. I think it's a direct jab at the cleric list, too. :D


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
nategar05 wrote:
Pathian wrote:
Also, for the Waves Oracle, Freezing Spells revelation, there is Cold Ice Strike, which is a solid spell on it's own.
That's true, but a line is usually not the ideal shape for a blast. If you're an ice blaster it's most definitely the way to go though. Well, that or Flame Oracle with Elemental Spell (Cold)(I know I'm obsessed with that. : P ). Though that doesn't give the Freezing Spell Revelation.
Man, that Freezing Spell revelation is so awesome it hurts. I think it's a direct jab at the cleric list, too. :D

I guess you could dip it with your cold blasting Sorcerer and take it at 1st level. Staggered for 1 round isn't as good as 1d4 rounds, but it's still nothing to sneeze at. Tongues makes a good dipping curse for full casters that like summoning.

Shadow Lodge

Question regarding the usefulness of Stone Shape: 10-30 cu. ft. seems very little. I mean, a single game square occupied by medium character occupies a space of 5x5x10 = 250 cu. ft. Does creating walls that are 1" thick really fly? Even then, you'd be able to create, say, a 10-30ft x 10ft x 1" wall, which is a wall on two to six game square edges. Frankly, doesn't sound too impressive to me, especially for a touch spell.

Can you touch the ground, have the stone snake on the floor through a 1"x1" passage to form a wall 100 feet out? Or how is it you make this useful?


Iridian wrote:

Question regarding the usefulness of Stone Shape: 10-30 cu. ft. seems very little. I mean, a single game square occupied by medium character occupies a space of 5x5x10 = 250 cu. ft. Does creating walls that are 1" thick really fly? Even then, you'd be able to create, say, a 10-30ft x 10ft x 1" wall, which is a wall on two to six game square edges. Frankly, doesn't sound too impressive to me, especially for a touch spell.

Can you touch the ground, have the stone snake on the floor through a 1"x1" passage to form a wall 100 feet out? Or how is it you make this useful?

I think the best way to start examining this spell is to avoid the "build a wall" aspect of it. Wall of Stone is 2 levels higher and infinitely better at this- and rightly so.

You see this a lot on the cleric spell list so it feels kinda lame saying again, but this spell is subtle. It also relies entirely on your ability to make it useful, so it may not be a spell for everyone. Keep in mind that stone has a hardness of 8 and 15 hitpoints per inch of thickness. It's serious business.

Shape stone excels at doing small projects in a big way. Seal off a door/hallway, build deep notches into the floor to create difficult terrain, create stone spikes to hinder mobility, cut open a stone wall because you got bored navigating the dungeon, throw up a tiny wall to prevent yourself from being flanked and limit enemy access to you, build a pedestal for your caster/archer friend to keep her out of melee range, build yourself a set of stairs or a bridge to avoid jump/climb checks, carve rungs into a stone wall to lower the climb difficulty, corner an enemy against a wall and trap it in a thin casing of stone (surround it for the best results), tear down a particularly important support structure or reinforce a weak one (it's a touch spell, after all), etc.

If you take Wall of Stone as a 5th level spell you'll never be without stone to manipulate, and that's even better.

Sovereign Court

Is Aasimar the best race for an oracle?

I've always liked aasimar and tieflings.


GeraintElberion wrote:

Is Aasimar the best race for an oracle?

I've always liked aasimar and tieflings.

Aasimar aren't technically a player race, but if your DM is willing to let you play one they aren't a terrible choice.

Aasimar get a +2 to charisma so they're automatically a green choice. They also get a +2 to the oracle's only dump stat, which is kinda nice because you can dump it down to 7 for the bonus points and still have a 9. Darkvision is always great, and a +2 to diplomacy and perception are always welcome. Daylight 1/day might as well be worthless, and the celestial resistances aren't going to matter after a while (though they're nice for a few levels).

I'd say they're about a green. They're a decent choice for any sort of oracle, but they don't really bring anything to the table that makes me think "wow, this would be excellent in the hands of an oracle" like the half-orc, human, half-elf, or gnome does. They're just sort of blandly good at what they do. They'll make a successful oracle to be sure, but the three human types and the gnome are all better at being an oracle in specific ways.

Shadow Lodge

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Iridian wrote:
Question regarding the usefulness of Stone Shape: 10-30 cu. ft. seems very little.

I think the best way to start examining this spell is to avoid the "build a wall" aspect of it. Wall of Stone is 2 levels higher and infinitely better at this- and rightly so.

Shape stone excels at doing small projects in a big way. ... tear down a particularly important support structure

If you take Wall of Stone as a 5th level spell you'll never be without stone to manipulate, and that's even better.

So a lot of creativity is needed. Righto. The tearing down a support structure is particularily devious, it would seem. In principle you could topple towers with this, given some DM fiat. It's sufficient to cut a sufficiently slant seam 1mm thick to the tower base, and it'll just slide across the seam and fall.

Strictly speaking, in the toppling case if there's no lower limit to the thickness (thinness) of the seam you'd need to make it's sufficient to just to break the chemical bonds and microstructure holding the stone together. We're talking micro/nanometer scale here. So given consistently rocky enough of a mountain, you could slide the top off to a nearby town. :P


Iridian wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Iridian wrote:
Question regarding the usefulness of Stone Shape: 10-30 cu. ft. seems very little.

I think the best way to start examining this spell is to avoid the "build a wall" aspect of it. Wall of Stone is 2 levels higher and infinitely better at this- and rightly so.

Shape stone excels at doing small projects in a big way. ... tear down a particularly important support structure

If you take Wall of Stone as a 5th level spell you'll never be without stone to manipulate, and that's even better.

So a lot of creativity is needed. Righto. The tearing down a support structure is particularily devious, it would seem. In principle you could topple towers with this, given some DM fiat. It's sufficient to cut a sufficiently slant seam 1mm thick to the tower base, and it'll just slide across the seam and fall.

Strictly speaking, in the toppling case if there's no lower limit to the thickness (thinness) of the seam you'd need to make it's sufficient to just to break the chemical bonds and microstructure holding the stone together. We're talking micro/nanometer scale here. So given consistently rocky enough of a mountain, you could slide the top off to a nearby town. :P

Now you're thinking with portals!


Why isn't trip a good option?

If you have the battle Mystery you'll be in melee. So Taking the Maneuver Mastery just add a nice option, that you just don't use on huge or flying things...

Let's do the level 10 math.
CMB = 25
(10 (oracle level) + 7 str (assuming a fair start value, perhaps +2 from level since you are a battle oracle +4 from item or Bull str +2 from enlarge person) +1 size (yes you'll be large from enlarge person or rightous might, if you ) +2 imp trip + 3 Divine Power (you're in batlle you'll wanna buff) +1 weapon focus +2 GMW)

And then the monsters: (I'll remove the flying or others that can't be tripped)

Bebilith: CMD 34 (46 vs trip), Huge (you need to be Large to try a bull rush, a drag, an overrun, a reposition or a trip), doesn't have item (immune to disarm, steal and sunder). Will save : +7. A command with 11 Cha has more chance of affecting it than any maneuver.
- okay trip isn't gonna work

Clay golem: CMD 30, doesn't have item (immune to disarm, steal and sunder). Highest save +4, but immune to magic.
- trip would work just fine

Fire giant: CMD 31. Ref +4, Will +9. Spells and maneuvers are as valuable here. Would the oracle have some good Raf spell (like create pit), spells would be better.
- I have a chance, but only fall prone on a "1" - i'll take my chances :-)

Rakshaza: CMD 29. Fort +9, Will +8, SR 25. Maneuver are better (since the oracle doesn't have enough SR-ignoring spells).
- iT'S GOING DOWN!

Young red dragon: CMD 30, fly (can't be tripped), doesn't have item (immune to disarm, steal and sunder). Will +10. A plane shift with 15 Cha is still a better option than trip or sunder
- if it for some reason decides to land I'll make him prone.

Young silver dragon: CMD 28, fly (can't be tripped), doesn't have item (immune to disarm, steal and sunder). Will +12. A plane shift with 15 Cha is still a better option than trip or sunder.
- if it for some reason decides to land I'll make him prone.

Young white dragon: CMD 32, fly (can't be tripped), doesn't have item (immune to disarm, steal and sunder). Will +10. A plane shift with 15 Cha is still a better option than trip or sunder.
- if it for some reason decides to land I'll mostlikely make him prone, and since I only fall prone on a "1" it could still be worth an action..

It's 1 revalation - and you are good - if you happen to have dex 14 or more combat reflexes is good, but not really needed. And this is CR 10 monsters. How often do you meet just one monster with CR = Charakter level, compared to a few lower CR monsters? Lesser CR, will in most cases be easier to trip...

And this is without any help. Now what happens at lvl 11 when the poor guy provokes AoO? Do you have allies? If you do you have just given them a free attack. And If you really wanted to trip - there's teamwork feats.
Coordinated Maneuvers (+2 not much..)
Tandem Trip (roll twice on trip - YES please!)
Paired Opportunists (+4 on the AoO becomes great with the greater trip)

And the Battle Oracle's power continues to rise (to around level 15 where monster just tend to be too big, to flying, to much of a caster)
GMW, Divine Power, greater trip, Greater weapon focus, Oracles levels, and if you picked up the whole eldrich bloodline inherit bonus to str...
Seems like a rather nice option to me (but not the only thing your char would do)...


Bigtuna wrote:
Why isn't trip a good option?

Remember, just because an option is useful and a valid choice in combat doesn't make it neccesarily a 'good' general choice of abilities. If its a 'good' choice only part of the time, and is comparable to something that is almost as good a choice almost all of the time, which is better to recomend from an optimization standpoint?

Trip is also an EXCELLENT example of an ability which has a use wildly dependant on campaign and DM preference, for example; some DM's may run nothing but outsiders, dragons, or magical beasts who fly or are otherwise immune to maneuvers like trips. Other DM's may prefer to use as foes NPC's in humanoid form built with class levels to present the party with comparable enemies or rivals. In first sort of campaign, resources spent on things like tripping are a near total waste. In the second, it can be terribly effective in a combat support role.

The key thing is, options which are dependant on campaign as to whether or not they are terrible or great probably shouldn't have a general rating which is good or superior; they should have a rating reflecting their general use, with a note that in some circumstances their effective rating could change based on that.

Liberty's Edge

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Well, it's not TERRIBLE. After all, summons are normally whole-round casts. Doing this is essentially casting a Rapid Summon Monster V right?

You're a spontaneous caster adding a meta word. I can't find the exact RAW, but I greatly suspect it works just like metamagic. Still better than a whole round casting time, but not by much given the higher level slot. Better to just be an evangelist. . .


Well the guide (nice work by the way) does give the revalation a fair rating :-)

I know it outside the books he wanted to include, but a few (Paizo) spells should be mentioned if not in the guide - then here.

Defending Bone - it's a early level Stoneskin without the price tag.

Admonishing Ray - it's force dam, so should work with toppling spell - can you apply imp trip or greater trip? Don't know - but if your GM allows it - that 3 trip attempts and some non-lethal damage (doesn't work on undead - but still)

Soothing Word - now that's spell for people with limited spells known. Helps with a whole range of condition. Paralyse is genereally to rare to add remove paralyses on the list of known spells, but show me a paralysed player and I'll show you a player that would love just to be staggered...

Terrible Remorse - sure a caster will just harm him self and take a concentration check, but a melee type will either do some real dame to him self or lose an action..

Any other worthwhile Paizo oracle spells?


Bigtuna wrote:

Well the guide (nice work by the way) does give the revalation a fair rating :-)

I know it outside the books he wanted to include, but a few (Paizo) spells should be mentioned if not in the guide - then here.

Defending Bone - it's a early level Stoneskin without the price tag.

Admonishing Ray - it's force dam, so should work with toppling spell - can you apply imp trip or greater trip? Don't know - but if your GM allows it - that 3 trip attempts and some non-lethal damage (doesn't work on undead - but still)

Soothing Word - now that's spell for people with limited spells known. Helps with a whole range of condition. Paralyse is genereally to rare to add remove paralyses on the list of known spells, but show me a paralysed player and I'll show you a player that would love just to be staggered...

Terrible Remorse - sure a caster will just harm him self and take a concentration check, but a melee type will either do some real dame to him self or lose an action..

Any other worthwhile Paizo oracle spells?

Those are really good ones, yeah. I saw a bunch of awesome spells when going through the spells one by one, but as you mentioned my goal was to keep it as close to the main pathfinder line as possible. I'd have to dig back through it all to pick out any others, but Soothing Word stands out as a real winner.

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet or not, but I thought it worth mentioning.

You have Extra Revelation listed as a blue feat, and it is great... once, maybe twice, but I've seen a few builds though where players get to 8th-10th level and they've taken Extra Revelation too many times and all that's left are the junk revelations.

It is a feat with deceptively diminishing returns, it's blue once, then maybe green, then almost certainly orange. Particularly with mysteries that have a limited number of good revelations.


Dennis Baker wrote:

Don't know if anyone has pointed this out yet or not, but I thought it worth mentioning.

You have Extra Revelation listed as a blue feat, and it is great... once, maybe twice, but I've seen a few builds though where players get to 8th-10th level and they've taken Extra Revelation too many times and all that's left are the junk revelations.

It is a feat with deceptively diminishing returns, it's blue once, then maybe green, then almost certainly orange. Particularly with mysteries that have a limited number of good revelations.

That's a good point that I hadn't considered. I guess I take common sense and forethought for granted. :)

Shadow Lodge

Regarding Extra Revelation:

Over the course of 20 levels, you will get 6 revelations out of a menu of 10. For most revelations, you can be quite sure to find a minimum of 2-3, and probably 4-5 that you can be without.

Extra Revelation is best for a multiclass Oracle, who might only otherwise take 3-4 revelations.


Yeah, I rarely see Extra Revelation being useful more than twice for a full classed Oracle, though I suppose with some Mysteries and/or campaigns may make it useful more often.


Ha I love this line from the guide.

Quote:


Oracle’s Burden generally isn’t worth the time it takes to cast, though it has the potential to be more worth it for you. For instance, if you took both the clouded vision and deaf curses. In which case, why do you hate fun??

I did this exact thing for one of my characters cohort. He uses the wind mystery and specifically the wind sight revelation to see outside of his clouded vision. I don't think it's optimal or anything, but it's been a whole lot of fun. Oh he also dipped gunslinger...

The Exchange Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Sean FitzSimon wrote:
That's a good point that I hadn't considered. I guess I take common sense and forethought for granted. :)

You would think... I wouldn't have mentioned it save I've seen a thread from someone who literally ran out of revelations.


The Lore oracle ability automatic writing allows you to use commune once per day for no xp cost. I find this a huge bonus that solves you an enormous amount of problems. Should be blue IMO.

Also mental acuity can grant you 1 bonus skill point per level at level 7 and 2 bonus skill points per level at level 13 and 3 bonus skill points per level at level 19 provided you start off with an odd number in intelligence, so potentialy it can be quite beneficial. Could be half green.

InVinoVeritas wrote:

Regarding Extra Revelation:

Over the course of 20 levels, you will get 6 revelations out of a menu of 10. For most revelations, you can be quite sure to find a minimum of 2-3, and probably 4-5 that you can be without.

Extra Revelation is best for a multiclass Oracle, who might only otherwise take 3-4 revelations.

I 'll second this.


Cleave. It's a nice feat, but it's also one of the few feats you can gain as a weapon enchantment, and as a +1 bonus!
And the Warrior Oracle has a desperat need of feats!

Also The Feat Spell Perfection - the real reason even a Warrior Oracle could use 3 metamagic feats (one of them quicken) - Spellperfection with either Divine power or Rightous Might makes sure the warrior enters battle ready to fight.

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