Yep Druids do that.
My best help for you would be to suggest that you take improved feint, so that as a move action you can perform the feint action and deny someone their Dex.
Also, when you flank someone, you gain a +2 to hit, not a +1 so check your math. Looking at what you have posted I think there might be some type of accuracy penalty you are missing because you are using 2 weapons at the same time. In any case, get something that makes you invisible, or improved feint and your damage should go up.
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*edit* Ninja'd be Glendwyr. What I was about to say. Seconded!
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There are a number of rogue talents that increase sneak attack damage, so that is a good place to start.
If you have two weapon fighting at 8th you should have more than two attacks.
But the large part of the problem is not having any strength damage.
Although at 8th you should be doing 4d6 not 5d6.
The Druid has the same attack progression as you, so something else must be going on there.
Without you posting your build it's hard to diagnose.
I’ve got weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, 18 dex and a +2 dex belt as well as two +1 short swords
Found your problem.
Just to offer something different from what's been said so far:
Use poison?
The whole "nat 1" thing sucks, but it's fun to play the poisoner role otherwise. Make sure to have a mix of STR/DEX/CON poisons, so that you can be sure to target the appropriate stat. And when in doubt, go for DEX.
This is a common problem. Rogues appear to be all about DEX, but they actually work better with a 14 str, dex, and con.
See if you can't switch to a str item instead.
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Try to add agile weapone property to your short swords,
20 dex would be +5 damage per a hit, at a cost of making ti a +2 sword
After that I would get the Sword of Subtul upgrade to your swords,
Which would add +4 to hit and +4 to damage to your attacks
Tottle cost 52k (40k for subdue)+4 to hit with each sneak attack, and +8 to damage per a hit.
Also, look into adding the agile weapon enhancement from... a source I can't recall off the top of my head, adding your dex to your weapon damage.
Do find the source please, :) I have a player who will flip for it! & I as his, beaten to a pulp, DM will scream. But i can use too :)!!??
Do find the source please, :) I have a player who will flip for it! & I as his, beaten to a pulp, DM will scream. But i can use too :)!!??
here is my idea.
assuming you are human.
and a 20 point buy (with 8th level stat boosts)
i would have gone
Str 18 (15+1+2) Dex 16 (15+1) Con 14 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 7 with power attack, toughness, dodge, favored class HP, a +2 Srrength belt (Str 20), weapon focus in the desired weapon and a 2handed +1 longspear or morningstar. morningstar should be fine. it both bludgeoning and piercing, which is better than just piercing.
at 8th level, with average rolls it has 75 hit points
it doesn't lose much AC
you are looking a 6 Bab, 5 Str, +1 (weapon) +1 focus -2 power attack for +11, +13 when flanking
for D8+6+1+7+4d6. your 2 attacks deal more damage than the 3 your TWF would have had. and if you are still set on 2WF, then daggers are actually better than shortswords because they are both slashing and piercing, which is better than just piercing of a shortsword. and slashing is a generally more useful damage type.
Average flanking sneak attack swing of 32.5 against 2 swings at 18.5 a piece. but you are less hosed by movement and DR.
in the dream scenario that all of your attacks hit, what would you rather deal?
55.5 with 3 swings or 65.0 with 2?
with a simple +1 mithril shirt, you have an AC of 19 before other magic items. that 2,310 you save can go to something else.
+1 to Agile if allowed. Menacing on your offhand is a pretty good deal. For a rogue, other than those I prefer raw enhancement bonus to elemental damage, anything to help you actually land attacks.
Fast stealth is kinda lame, it's only a -5 penalty those times you need to move at speed. My rogue is currently loving Peerless Maneuver for getting to flanking position, that and acrobatics checks save the feats otherwise needed for Spring Attack. If not PM, then Gang Up gets you your flank too if you're having trouble getting it.
Poisons are expensive, probably better to save the money for buff wands. If you've got the cha and feats and fun-tolerance, you could arcane heritage yourself a umd/trap monkey that chills on your back and flings alchemical attacks when needed.
Regardless, +1 to finesse rogues not being DPS machines.
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Well, that monk has a +5 Str and a +1 enhancement bonus with an elemental damage boost on top.
Your Dex is equivalent but not adding to your damage, unfortunately.
The aforementioned agile property will help out there.
Have you considered piranha strike? It functions like Deadly Aim/Power Attack, but for light weapons & dex based fighters.
Finally, if you're willing to wait a bit...get proficiency with a scimitar & dervish dance. that'll help with a single attack, at least, but won't be available until at least 10th lvl (9th lvl feat, 10th lvl combat trick rogue talent).
Also consider this: don't try to out-do the others in the damage department. Sneak around fights and set up the baddies for even worse stuff. If you can get your hands on a hat of disguise and have some decent Bluff & Disguise scores, you can cause a LOT of havoc before your team ever gets to sword-swinging.
Consider investing in a LOT of alchemical supplies. Tanglefoot Bags, Thunderstones, barrels (not just flasks, although lots of flasks would work as well) of lamp oil & some Alchemical Fire. Set up the enemies' retreat vector with essentially landmines and booby traps, so when they flee your pouncing Druid/Kitty o' Doom and Mr. Amazing the Monk, they walk right into your killbox.
Finally, remember to use stealth and guile to your advantage. If you can catch them unawares (like sleeping or otherwise distracted), take out a guard or two and simply "disappear" them. If the rest of the foes don't react to that, keep it up until your hit-squad moves in, then leg it for the primary objective while they are distracted.
2 things:
1)
In PF there are a lot fewer things immune to sneak attack Oozes and some constructs but no where near the number there used to be in 3.5. So you may not be getting some sneak attacks effects you should be.
2)
Gang Up (Combat)
You are adept at using greater numbers against foes.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.
Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.
As soon as the druid and his pet hit the same target you are getting sneak attack damage if you attack them.
Hello, I’m playing a rogue and I just hit level 8. I’ve been having the problem that the party’s druid, monk and barbarian are vastly out damaging me.
I’ve got weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, 18 dex and a +2 dex belt as well as two +1 short swords (I’m hoping to add D6 elemental damage to each of these soon – when I get the funds).
So I’ve got two attacks with each at +10 (+4BAB +5Dex +1enchantment) to hit (+11 when flanking) and doing 5D6 damage for each attack (+1 from the short sword enchant, but no additional from strength).
The monk does his flurry of blows and gets five attacks (including his ki point attack though – but he has been using this most of the time), three of these attacks are at +13 to hit (not including flanking or anything) and two are at +8 to hit. Each of these attacks does D10+D6+6 damage.
As this compares to me, each of his attacks does an average of 15 damage if it hits and each of mine does an average of 18.5 damage. However, I get only two attacks and they are at +10 to hit while he gets three attacks at +13 AND two attacks at +8.
Your BAB should be 6, with 2 weapon Fighting you should have 3 attacks.
You aren't counting your BAB right if you are 8th level.You shouldn't dump str ever. I know, you got weapoon finesse but Str is the best stat (Damage, Carry capacity, CMB, CMD, etc).
Anyhoo, you do 1d6+1 or sneak attack 5d6+1 on each attack.
Normal damage: 4.5; Sneak attack: 18.5, 3 attacks means 55.5 damage.
Your hit is 6 BAB + 1 weapon + 5 Dex = +12/+7. -2 from TWFing = +10/+10/+5.
Flanking would be +12/+12/+7 while TWfing (+14/+9 while not Twfing).
So you can deal respectable damage with 3 attks if deny dex/flanking.
Can you explain Monk damage rate? Why is it 1d10+d6+6?
Is he using an amulet if Might Fist with flaming on it?
15 damage. So he has 22 Str?
He has +13/+13/+8/+8 or when spend Ki +13/+13/+13/+8/+8?
He deals 60 or when spend ki: 75.
So he deals more even when not spending Ki point. But that was because he didn't dump Str.
If you had even 12 Str you would be dealing 3 more damage on a full attack.
Maybe try to get touch attacks if you keep whiffing in combat. A wand of produce flame or flame blade would work.
start down the path towards two weapon feint. Then you shall get many sneak attacks.
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I'm a fan of powerful sneak and deadly sneak talents from the apg. Powerful sneak would up each hits damage to 19.16 (each sneak attack die now rolls 3.66 damage on average). Admitedly it's only on full round attacks and at a -2 to hit. It's deadly sneak where things get good thoug once you pick up that major talent each sneak attack die does 4 damage and your minimum damage goes way up.
You'll see more dramatic returns from piraña strike and the agile enchant as others have mentioned but the key to maximizing damage is to keep stacking bonuses.
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I'm a fan of powerful sneak and deadly sneak talents from the apg.
Those make you suck -- any rogue, anywhere, who takes them will do worse DPR on a full-attack once the -2 to attacks is factored.
Those two are the most rotten "improvements" in the game, and head the list of abilities/feats that make you suck worse than if you didn't have them at all.
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To the OP: get the Agile weapon enhancement for your pair of melee weapons.
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Those make you suck[/b] -- any rogue, anywhere, who takes them will do worse DPR on a full-attack once the -2 to attacks is factored.
Those two are the most rotten "improvements" in the game, and head the list of abilities/feats that make you suck worse than if you didn't have them at all.
I call shanagans.
Let's do some basic algebra. The average on 1d6 is calculated by summing the values of each side and dividing by six. Normally that's (1+2+3+4+5+6=21) / 6 = 3.5
With powerful sneak the 1 is treated as 2 yielding the following (2+2+3+4+5+6=22) / 6 = 3.67ish. I'll agree that thats not amazing.
However with deadly sneak 1s and 2s are treated as 3s yielding (3+3+3+4+5+6=24) / 6 = 4. That's an increase of .5 per die. Is parana strike good? I'll admit that it's not quite as good as parana strike until 15th level, but they stack!
My experience is that it's much much easier to increase hit rate than damage, and that ACs are generally not very high (obviously this will vary by campaign). Also there is significant opertunity cost in terms of major talents not taken so it's not a must have, but one would hardly be wrong to take it.
As others have said go for agile weapons and the piranha strike, then go for the raw weapon enchantments on your weapons, after that try to go for the feint feat line (it will be kind of tough because both TWF and feint lines require a lot of feats) but if you can't go to those feats it's ok i have an alternative, have a CHA of 15 (i know this hurts) take skill focus stealth and then take the first two eldritch heritage feats on the shadow bloodline (which gets you one of the best hide in plain sight).
@Matthew Trent
You understand that you spend two feat equilevants (two talents) in order to be able to take -2 to attack in order to increase your average damage by 0.5 per die, when you take into account the resources you spend to achieve that things become clearer.
Those make you suck[/b] -- any rogue, anywhere, who takes them will do worse DPR on a full-attack once the -2 to attacks is factored.
Those two are the most rotten "improvements" in the game, and head the list of abilities/feats that make you suck worse than if you didn't have them at all.
I call shanagans.
Let's do some basic algebra.
Your algebra ignores the loss in damage (on average) from having a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
What Mike was getting at is that the damage increased isn't offsetting the average loss in damage that a -2 does, because the -2 affects every other source of damage you are doing on all attacks (like elemental weapon damage, enhancement bonus, strength bonus, etc).
-2 to hit cost for a 3/4 BAB combatant is bad. Flanking gives you +2, however that only offsets the -2 from TWF.
Really, a different penalty would have been better for the Rogue in this talent line.
The good news is: its not you, its the class: especially the more iconic two weapon fighting and dex builds. So you didn't do anything wrong, there's nothing to blame yourself for.
The bad news is that this makes it rather hard to fix. Rogues, especially dex based ones, need to backstab VERY consistently to keep up, especially with a druid or barbarian.
Sneak attacking is situational. Full attacking is situational. Both together is a regular planetary alignment. It looks really good on paper but it just doesn't happen that often.
So powerful/deadly sneak is a heavy cost/limited benefit suitable only to situations where rogues are full attacking low AC enemies. Similar to Power Attack.
First of all power attack isn't heavy cost, also power attack gives you more damage for less penalty.
To the OP:
Don't feel bad about the druid, even in PF, the levels 6-10 are the levels where (battle built) druids are really kings, if built really carefully (and thanks to one UC feat) they can keep the king status for a few more levels.
The trick with a druid isn't the build its the gear. As soon as you realize "hey, for one less plus for me i can afford one of everything I'm already wearing on my kitty cat/raptor" your player's contribution to the damage in the fight goes through the roof.
Those make you suck[/b] -- any rogue, anywhere, who takes them will do worse DPR on a full-attack once the -2 to attacks is factored.
Those two are the most rotten "improvements" in the game, and head the list of abilities/feats that make you suck worse than if you didn't have them at all.
I call shanagans.
Let's do some basic algebra. The average on 1d6 is calculated by summing the values of each side and dividing by six. Normally that's (1+2+3+4+5+6=21) / 6 = 3.5
With powerful sneak the 1 is treated as 2 yielding the following (2+2+3+4+5+6=22) / 6 = 3.67ish. I'll agree that thats not amazing.
However with deadly sneak 1s and 2s are treated as 3s yielding (3+3+3+4+5+6=24) / 6 = 4. That's an increase of .5 per die. Is parana strike good? I'll admit that it's not quite as good as parana strike until 15th level, but they stack!
My experience is that it's much much easier to increase hit rate than damage, and that ACs are generally not very high (obviously this will vary by campaign). Also there is significant opertunity cost in terms of major talents not taken so it's not a must have, but one would hardly be wrong to take it.
Like said before you do not take into account the -2 penalty to hit which lowers to hit and crit chance considerably and will end up costing you your damage potential rather than increase it in most situations.
Even without the -2 penalty to hit I am very doubtful I would ever take these, if I compare it to a fighter's specialization.
- the damage is more situational, you usually need to flank and some creatures are immune or resistant to SA damage/crits and/or to flanking.
- your BAB is worse than a fighter, which translates into less hits so less pay-off for the damage increase
- it costs two feat equivalents instead of one, the 1st one is utter crap the 2nd makes it almost worth taking.
- until level 15 or so you will be better off with power attack or piranha strike, which end up doing about the same thing but better, giving you more return damage for your penalty to hit
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Those make you suck[/b] -- any rogue, anywhere, who takes them will do worse DPR on a full-attack once the -2 to attacks is factored.I call shanagans. ....<snip stuff>
A rogue with 6d6 worth of SA dice and Powerful Sneak gets...
...wait for it...
one point of extra damage per sneak attack in exchange for his -2 to attacks. With Deadly Sneak (the upgrade) he gets +3 dmg off his 6d6 in exchange for his -2 to attacks. But if he's an TWF rogue at 12th, this means he's now -7 behind the "attack curve" of a full-BAB character without TWF before also factoring additional penalties from Power Attack or Piranha Strike. I.e., he's in a sore position to be inflicting himself with additional penalties for such incredibly paltry benefits -- for which he is nerfing one sixth of the number of Talents he'll have received by 12th.
My experience is that it's much much easier to increase hit rate than damage,
Once you have -5 iteratives, the math all changes. In order for Powerful Sneak to yield a benefit to a TWF rogue at low level, his attack bonus has to be +1 over the target's AC. ...that's bloody difficult for any character. At 8th (BAB6), he picks up his -5 iterative, and the -2 penalty from PS/DS severely chisels into the odds it'll hit, garfing DPR.
Run some DPR calcs with iteratives; those two are amazing awful. And to get them, you have to forfeit two other much more useful goodies from the Talent list.
Taking junk like this is why rogues drop like flies and almost everyone considers them suboptimal [when they're really not]: tunnel-vision over-emphasis on gleaning every last scrap of possible theoretical damage regardless of cost leads to situations in which the rogue is dropped and the running player complains it was because he couldn't do enough damage -- when the real reason he got blotted was he didn't have Fast Getaway and Another Day since he passed on them to take worthless garbage instead.
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Rogues, especially dex based ones, need to backstab VERY consistently to keep up, especially with a druid or barbarian
Well, those two classes are the DPR juggernauts -- just about all classes have trouble "keeping up" to them.
Speaking of barbarian, multiclassing one or two levels of barbarian[urban] (Ultimate Combat) is a total gimme for almost any TWF concept -- there's finally a way to "DEX-rage".
I think I would fix it by having Deadly Sneak remove the to-hit penalty. Spending an Advanced Talent should get at least that much.
That's the house rule number 30 on my list.
The rogue as described doesn't seem to have WF, unlike the monk, the monk also seems to have more points invested in strength and possibly in gear to up damage potential.
I would consider going for daggers instead and take knife fighter archetype to make those SA d8 dice.
- Weapon Focus (dagger), handy for the knife fighter archetype the +1 to hit will help your damage output significantly and daggers can be used as missile weapons just as readily
- Weapon Finesse
- Two Weapon Fighting
- Quick Draw, daggers can be thrown using TWF allowing you to have a missile weapon handy at times you need one, make 3 attacks and switch back to melee mode instantly
- Skill Focus Stealth, better than fast stealth, giving you +3 bonus in all cases instead of just +5 when using fast stealth, also the bonus will increase to +6 at level 10 making it better in any and all instances.
Depending on race and ways you want to invest talents you might be able to take point blank shot as well, ninja trick to get swift invisibility might be extremely useful, Improved Two Weapon Fighting is worth considering if you find you hit often with that extra attack you get from TWF, rapid shot will allow you to fling a scary number of daggers per round though you will probably like to have a way to carry them on your person in significant quantities
Hello, I’m playing a rogue and I just hit level 8. I’ve been having the problem that the party’s druid, monk and barbarian are vastly out damaging me.
Time to face the fact that rogues suck. It takes alot of careful optimisation, gear and planning to put them close to equal to other classes as far as damage output is concerned.
One possible solution is to dump the rogue and play an Urban Ranger. You gain trap finding, full BAB, better hit points, better armour, more attacks, spell casting from 4th level and you can put your main stat into STR as you can get two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting as free feats at 2nd and 6th level. So many bonuses with no drawbacks. Your damage output will be strong without having to worry as a rogue on how to get off sneak attack all the time.
Second solution is play a ninja. They are much better than rogues as well.
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Time to face the fact that rogues suck. It takes alot of careful optimisation, gear and planning to put them close to equal to other classes as far as damage output is concerned.
Plain vanilla halfling rogue, straight class, nothin' weird or "recent" (i.e., Ultimate Combat, etc), PFS legal 20pt buy:
STR-05
DEX+19
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:12
CHA+14
Traits: River Rat, Reactionary
01 rog1 Improved Initiative
02 rog2 [Finesse Rogue:Weapon Finesse]
03 rog3 Two Weapon Fighting
04 rog4 [Weapon Training:Weapon Focus:Dagger]
05 rog5 FEAT (any General)
06 rog6 [Combat Trick:Piranha Strike]
Equipment: Scabbard of Vigor (several), Haversack, various 750gp wands bought with PFS "fame" (CLW, Mage Armor, Longstrider), non-masterwork daggers (oodles), +1/Agile dagger (two), Muleback Cords, Vest of Escape, potions of Invisibility (two).
-- This is about as easy as a "stereotype" rogue build gets, and it kicks maximum ass when you add the numbers up.
I'll dogpile on ;-)
One thing to get out of the way first: Don't try to outperform warriors in the damage department. Won't work (assuming a similar level of optimisation - of course if you have an optimised rogue against a non-optomised fighter, you can beat him in that). Damage is basically what warriors do.
Rogues can get near, but they can't beat it. So if you're in it just for damage, rather than the other stuff rogues can do, you might consider changing characters to get a different class.
I’ve got weapon finesse, two weapon fighting, 18 dex and a +2 dex belt as well as two +1 short swords (I’m hoping to add D6 elemental damage to each of these soon – when I get the funds).So I’ve got two attacks with each at +10 (+4BAB +5Dex +1enchantment) to hit (+11 when flanking) and doing 5D6 damage for each attack (+1 from the short sword enchant, but no additional from strength).
To add my voice to the choir: Your BAB is +6/+1, there is nothing in the game that will decrease your BAB, and extra attacks are based on BAB. That means on level 8, the rogue will always get his 2nd attack with his main hand.
That means three attacks: +6/+1 main hand, +6 off hand, plus/minus all the modifiers (including two-weapon fighting). Next level, you can go and get the next off-hand attack.
Convince the party wizard (if you have one) to learn a couple of hastes. It's a very useful spell, anyway.
The monk does his flurry of blows and gets five attacks (including his ki point attack though – but he has been using this most of the time),
Well, you hit the sweet spot here: this is the very level they get that extra "off-hand" attack, which monks get one level sooner than rogues can get it (unless you used your level 8 rogue talent to get a combat feat instead and take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting with it). If you go improved TWF next level, you'll be at 4 attacks as well.
Sure, the extra ki attack is nice, but he shouldn't have that many ki points. Something like 8. That means no more than 8 such attacks per day (and that would mean not using ki for anything else). It is a boon, but unless you have short adventuring days, it's not something the monk can keep using.
Each of these attacks does D10+D6+6 damage.
Where is that d6 coming from? I assume it's from an amulet of mighty fists with some flaming or something on it. Note that as soon as you get your elemental enchantments, you'll get that d6, too.
As for their attacks, well, monks in flurry mode do have the advantage of getting "full" BAB for flurry attacks, which translates to a +2 for them at level 8 (BAB 8 over 6), and getting to add strength to damage helps.
Did you roll stats and he rolled better ones than you? Or does he have more money? Things seem off:
The guy gets +6 to damage. That either means 22 Str or 20 Str and an amulet of mighty fists +1 flaming.
The first is curious, since that would mean that he could have afforded a better Str score than your Dex (which sounds weird - rogues can concentrate on their dex more than monks on their str). Monks need to balance Str with Wis and at least a little Dex, and of course Con, while rogues, especially finesse rogues, can go pretty much all Dex (well, not to the total exclusion of everything else, but the other attributes are secondary at best)
All that would mean that it's likely that the rogue's Dex should be higher than the monk's Str. Unless he has a good combination of racial bonuses and luck with the items (i.e. he was able to get a +4 Str belt while you only have the +2 Dex belt), the only thing I can see happening here is either that you neglected dex (and therefore, at least to some extent, your damage capabilities) for other stuff.
Or, of course, you rolled your attributes and the guy rolled better. At that point, all the bets are off - the guy with the better attributes will probably have the more effective character.
And if he can afford an amulet of mighty fists +1 flaming, why don't you have the two +1 flaming weapons yet? They're cheaper than his one amulet.
Still, it would be helpful to hear how you got your stats (Purchase method, rolling, bribing the GM with alcohol or back rubs), and what both your and the monk's total ability array are (with and without items)
But at the end of the day, the monk is still close to being a warrior class (they're not quite there, as they don't get the full BAB for everything, and only have the d8 as HD, but still they get some combat abilities from their class), while the rogue is not. That will mean the rogue has at least a bit of an uphill struggle.
I compare even worse to the druid who also has pounce so he can do it on the charge (as well as a host of druid spells of course) and an animal companion which is also doing a lot of damage.
Well, druids are a class of their own. They're really the best of their class (yes, I see it. I was just making fun of autocar ads).
But any ‘other’ category advantages I have should also be measured against the fact that my damage is sneak attack damage with very significant restrictions while their damage is something they can do to pretty much anything.
That is true, sneak attack is not as good as regular damage, as you have to set it up with getting the drop on someone or flanking them (which means you won't be able to sneak with every single attack), there are at least a few critters immune to it (but they're bad news all around really), and, most importantly, you can't really take advantage of critical hits. That's a huge plus for everyone else.
I guess what I’m asking here is if this problem is common, or if it may have something to do with me building my rogue incorrectly or them building their characters especially well.
There can be some issues specific to your case, but others are general.
Others have made good points: get the agile enhancement for your weapons - that lets you add Dex to damage - or maybe the GM will allow a feat that lets you add Dex instead of Str to damage. Look over your math and rules issues (Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't reduce the BAB itself and thus won't rob you of extra attacks, Flanking is +2, not +1) and the stuff I talked about above (are the characters themselves on equal footing or do some have advantages because they have rolled better attributes or gotten more money/gear)?
Overall, because of the significant restrictions on when you can sneak attack I feel that when I can sneak attack I should be doing the most damage. Certainly not less anyway.
I'm not quite sure about that. I'm unsure on the stance whether SA should be crittable (it's about the only significant damage boost in the game that won't benefit from critical hits), but since rogues are not warriors, there is no need to outperform warriors, even under "perfect" conditions (after all, it's not too hard to set up sneak attacks, and in many situations, games, campaigns or groups, rogues will be able to sneak attack most of the time)
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Also, is it called 'Sword of Subtul' or Subtle? What book?Magic weapon tables:
Sword of Subtlety
Aura moderate illusion; CL 7th Slot none; Price 22,310 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
DescriptionA +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it.
Having a pair of these bad boys (44,620gp) is the shizzits for a well-heeled rich-boy TWF rogue...*IF* he can get in melee sneak-attacks all the time -- because otherwise they're just +1 shortswords costing 18,000gp more each than two ordinary +1s.
For the same cash (and planned Improved Critical:Shortsword feat traded for EWP), you could have a pair of d6 18-20/x2 P or S "Deadly" +1/Keen/Agile wakizashis (2x18,335), a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone [cracked/+1 attack competence, 4000gp], and two Scabbards of Vigor (2x1,800gp)...total 44,270gp.
I'm a fan of powerful sneak and deadly sneak talents from the apg.Those make you suck -- any rogue, anywhere, who takes them will do worse DPR on a full-attack once the -2 to attacks is factored.
Those two are the most rotten "improvements" in the game, and head the list of abilities/feats that make you suck worse than if you didn't have them at all.
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To the OP: get the Agile weapon enhancement for your pair of melee weapons.
Against an AC 20 enemy (without flanking) he will deal 18.96 damage per round (without external buffs).
With Deadly Sneak on his damage will drop to 13.39.All Deadly Sneak does is increasing the average per dice from 3.5 to 4. Wow. Its great for your motivation because 1s look so evil but in the end its not going to do anything.
EDIT: I was assuming lvl 9 for the monk calculations... meh its actually 32
The monk will deal 35.3 dmg per round to the same target.
@Agile Enhancement: Its a 3rd party thingy so outside PFS games you won't see it being allowed often...
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@ Agile Enhancement: Its a 3rd party thingy so outside PFS games you won't see it being allowed often...
True enough -- home games are almost always cash-poor and access-restricted -- which is why most players are used to running meatheads (because they're the only builds not substantially stymied on a starvation budget).