Dual-Wield Gunslinger Rules


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

So I'm GMing for my group, and we've recently picked up a copy of Ultimate Combat. One of my PCs wanted to give the gunslinger a try, and after looking at the pictures and reading up on the Grit system and the Daring Acts, as well as the Archetypes he settled on a Wandering Stranger style because a Daring yet foolish hero seems like he shouldn't be centric around Wisdom.

So he wants to dual wield his pistols, since every art piece in the book shows gunslingers dual wielding pistols - He wants the kick-the-door-in guns-blazing devil-may-care attitude robin-hood type of hero that all the art seems to depict.

Here's the roadblock: As far as we can tell that's not possible. We try as best we can to follow the base rules and use existing methods when we can, so we cooked up this:

If he has Alchemical Cartriges and Rapid Reload that reduces his Standard Action reload time down to a free action: However he needs a free hand in order to load them. Holstering his gun is a move action[As it triggers an Atk of Opp. and Sheathing isn't sped up by quick draw], Drawing them is a free action with quick draw.

So we are at:
Move 1: Holster Gun A
Free : Load Gun B
Move 2: Holster Gun B
Free : Quick Draw Gun A
Free : Load Gun A
Free : Quick Draw Gun B
<Fun fact: Provokes 4 Atks of Opp>

So he's essentially firing twice every other round as opposed to once per round - it all shakes out the same.

Also when he reaches 5th level and higher he will be able to reload his weapon as a free action while firing off his multiple shots - but he won't be capable of that while dual wielding. (At this point wielding only one would provide better damage output...)

The only loophole we've found would be to cast the reloading hands spell on his guns and hire a powerful mage to cast permanency on the enchantment: And even that is a stretch as it's a very powerful spell to have permanent (I'd probably make it part of some difficult quest)

But while permanently having spectral hands reloading the guns would seem cool thematically - it just seems odd that for all the art showing dual-pistol wielding heroes, the rules make it nearly impossible.

I'm just curious if I missed something, or if we need to make a house rule here to allow one-handed reloading. It doesn't seem like it should be this difficult given I see dual-wielding pistol users on pg 4, 9, 242... in fact I don't think I see an image of a gunslinger where they aren't dual wielding. I see other class archetypes with guns splashed in, and they're using muskets - but every gunslinger class picture shows them wielding two pistols. If that's the true flavor of the class, why can't the rules replicate it? I'm at a loss.


I tend to imagine it like in western movies, after novaing with both pistols you're gonna have to duck behind a water barrel or something to reload for a turn. If you dislike permanent Reloading Hands on the pistols themselves you could try what my GM and I did, we went the Boots of Speed route and created a holster which is a free action to activate and has a limited number of rounds per day to use of Reloading Hands.

Grand Lodge

DarkHomer420 wrote:
I tend to imagine it like in western movies, after novaing with both pistols you're gonna have to duck behind a water barrel or something to reload for a turn. If you dislike permanent Reloading Hands on the pistols themselves you could try what my GM and I did, we went the Boots of Speed route and created a holster which is a free action to activate and has a limited number of rounds per day to use of Reloading Hands.

That's another alternative I hadn't thought of. I dunno, I was hoping someone would point out something obvious that I overlooked though. It still feels weird to me that there isn't some simple tool (Like a Feat or Class Ability) to make this option more viable.

Silver Crusade

You should search for the weapon chords attack routine gimmick that I posted not too long ago.
Also, glove of storing. Also, double-barelled weapons.
And don't forget that switching weapons from hands is a free action.

Or simply, draw, shoot, drop, draw, shoot. You'll need lots of pistols to let fall once they shot, like it was the case for all guns like this. Or use several of these tricks at the same time :

Weapon chord on main hand, pistol in off-hand with glove of storing allows you to : shoot both, free action off-hand disappears, reload main hand, shoot main hand, reload main hand, shoot main hand, reload main hand, drop main hand (tied with weapon chord), free action off-hand appears, shoot with off-hand, reload, shoot with off-hand, reload... and swift action to get main weapon back in hand.


Unless you're using a revolver, dual wielding firearms is difficult. One option is to take 2 levels of Alchemist and take the vestigial arm discovery, giving a third hand with which to reload your two guns.

The other method is to use weapon straps. This, however, depends on how you interpret order of attacks while two weapon fighting. It seems to be generally accepted that you can make all the attack you can with one weapon, then all the attack you can with the other, so long as each weapon is used from highest to lowest BAB. Here's how it'd look in play

Start of turn: One gun in hand, one gun dangling on cord
Full Round Action: Commence Full Round Attack
Free Actions: Reload firearm between shots
Free Action: Drop firearm after iterative attacks have been made
Swift Action: Zip dangling weapon to hand
Resume Full Round Action firing off all iterative attacks with second gun
Fre Actions: Reloading second weapon
End Turn: One gun in hand, one gun dangling.

Sure, it's not what the pictures depict (which, given the rules, is kind of ironic how prevelent dual wielding is pictured), and it's not the classic back and forth shots, but it is perhaps that simplest way to get off all the possible iterative attack while dual wielding.

Silver Crusade

Roaming Shadow wrote:

Unless you're using a revolver, dual wielding firearms is difficult. One option is to take 2 levels of Alchemist and take the vestigial arm discovery, giving a third hand with which to reload your two guns.

The other method is to use weapon straps. This, however, depends on how you interpret order of attacks while two weapon fighting. It seems to be generally accepted that you can make all the attack you can with one weapon, then all the attack you can with the other, so long as each weapon is used from highest to lowest BAB. Here's how it'd look in play

Start of turn: One gun in hand, one gun dangling on cord
Full Round Action: Commence Full Round Attack
Free Actions: Reload firearm between shots
Free Action: Drop firearm after iterative attacks have been made
Swift Action: Zip dangling weapon to hand
Resume Full Round Action firing off all iterative attacks with second gun
Fre Actions: Reloading second weapon
End Turn: One gun in hand, one gun dangling.

Sure, it's not what the pictures depict (which, given the rules, is kind of ironic how prevelent dual wielding is pictured), and it's not the classic back and forth shots, but it is perhaps that simplest way to get off all the possible iterative attack while dual wielding.

Well, this ^ is pretty much what you would have found by searching my attack routine.

And frankly, it is so easy and legal to do that I would just ask the DM if I can't simply fluff it in a cooler way ; like turning the guns on my fingers and packing their barrel around pre-made alchemical bullets strapped into my cloak/clothing to protect them from elements (granted I actually paid for the mandatory "protect the powder against fire and water" items), tearing them and reloading the gun as a free action.
Or I would just ask for a magic item that gives a magical property to any gun I hold, it isn't broken in any way if I had to pay thousands of GP to craft a lot of them, especially if I can obtain the same effect and a lot more advantages by just using weapon chords.
Different flavor, but as balanced as the RAW.

Grand Lodge

Somehow we totally overlooked Weapon Chords...

They totally solve the issue, while at the same time they seem like a very lame way to solve the issue.

Something about a dude having guns dangle from ropes while he reloads just seems like I would laugh in his face while he fires at me, but it will suffice.


My question is based on the following: I'm playing a Gunslinger with the Gun Tank Archetype who will be dual wielding Mithral Revolvers. My question is do standard two-weapon fighting penalties apply as if I had a longsword in each hand or do firearms get a balance reduction to the two-weapon fighting penalty due to the fact that though they may weigh as much as a longsword they aren't as big as one?

Silver Crusade

A weapon made of mithral isn't considered as smaller for the purposes of how it can be handled, it is just lighter in weight.

Scarab Sages

I like the Black beard way, as he was infamous for having 6 pistols on him double barrel. Then have quick draw to fect them one by one and when your done with the 12 shots draw your sword and fight them off your ship.


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On a note, the TWF feat makes it so you can draw two items at once. Not sure if that helps.

But Utii has a nice point, if that's a style he could like and use.
I checked out the magic item creation, and it would cost 10.080gp to make a holster or weapon with infinite Reloading Hands spell on it, a holster being cheaper if he just used two pistols and kept changing them.

If he went that way, he could have two pistols with infinite ammo, on a rotation, never having to reload again. Of course, the best keyword on the reload holster would be BANG.

Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, I love this thing! bang, bang, bang.
*wheeze and gasp for air after an encounter of yelling bang.*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes you can dual wield firearms. But the basic kick in the door assumption is that you're only going to get one shot from each and then you're single wielding for the rest of the combat. Carry LOTS of pistols.

Dark Archive

I'm almost positive once you are higher level, the weapon cord will cause problems by allowing the gunslinger to take a lot of shots all as touch attacks.

At level 6, with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, using Grit for Focused Aim (let's assuming 16 CHA), that's 4 shots, that's 4d8 + 20, all as touch attacks. If your party is heavily optimized, this is not an issue. If not, I bet somebody will complain at some point. Also remember free actions can be limited by the GM now, as it is stated in Core under free actions.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BYC wrote:

I'm almost positive once you are higher level, the weapon cord will cause problems by allowing the gunslinger to take a lot of shots all as touch attacks.

At level 6, with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, using Grit for Focused Aim (let's assuming 16 CHA), that's 4 shots, that's 4d8 + 20, all as touch attacks. If your party is heavily optimized, this is not an issue. If not, I bet somebody will complain at some point. Also remember free actions can be limited by the GM now, as it is stated in Core under free actions.

Yes, you can get a lot of shots in by dual-wielding pistols and using weapon cords. However, the shooter only gets to target touch AC in the first range increment of early firearms (20 ft for regular pistols or double barreled pistols); with early fireams, that puts you within reach of a large creature with a reach weapon. The Deadeye deed can increase that, but only at the cost of 1 grit point per range increment (1 grit for 40 ft, 2 grit for 60 ft, etc.) and normal range penalties still apply.

Also, per the rules on weapon cords, you cannot wield another weapon in the hand with a weapon cord attached. That's a pretty big drawback when you're shooting targets at close range (although the Pistol-Whip deed at least lets you use the pistols as clubs).

Liberty's Edge

Some things that can help some of the issues mentioned by Dragonchess Player:

First range increment: Stand behind your tank, he should be able to help keep you safe while close.

Reach issues: Point-Blank Master is your friend

Weapon cord: Point-Blank Master helps overcome this issue, as well, since you can fire without provoking at melee.

Myself, I am going to be building (actually, am partway built/played to 3rd level, so far) a PC that uses pistol and whip, and the whip gives AoOs at 10' range (15' when under Enlarge Person), so shoot 'em while they are moving in, then hit 'em with the whip (trip is your friend) when they get into AoO range. Bwhahaha!

Dark Archive

Dragonchess Player wrote:
BYC wrote:

I'm almost positive once you are higher level, the weapon cord will cause problems by allowing the gunslinger to take a lot of shots all as touch attacks.

At level 6, with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, using Grit for Focused Aim (let's assuming 16 CHA), that's 4 shots, that's 4d8 + 20, all as touch attacks. If your party is heavily optimized, this is not an issue. If not, I bet somebody will complain at some point. Also remember free actions can be limited by the GM now, as it is stated in Core under free actions.

Yes, you can get a lot of shots in by dual-wielding pistols and using weapon cords. However, the shooter only gets to target touch AC in the first range increment of early firearms (20 ft for regular pistols or double barreled pistols); with early fireams, that puts you within reach of a large creature with a reach weapon. The Deadeye deed can increase that, but only at the cost of 1 grit point per range increment (1 grit for 40 ft, 2 grit for 60 ft, etc.) and normal range penalties still apply.

Also, per the rules on weapon cords, you cannot wield another weapon in the hand with a weapon cord attached. That's a pretty big drawback when you're shooting targets at close range (although the Pistol-Whip deed at least lets you use the pistols as clubs).

Anybody who isn't an idiot knows this. I play a gunslinger, and I've GMed 2 more before. I know how it works. Are you trying to impress somebody with your knowledge of the rules or something?

Shadow Lodge

If as a GM you would allow it, the player could take a dip in witch and take the Prehensile Hair hex, which could be allowed to reload by RAI.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Play a vanara, they have prehensile tails to help with loading.


It dumb that you have to make gimmicks around the system to make firearms work how they are suppose to work. I like firearms i do i'm not hating on firearms in my fantasy i'm fine with that. The way they are implemented is the rules for them is silly. Its needlessly complicated what you have to do to get multiple attacks. its silly that their touch attacks when arrows have just as much right to be. and why does a full bab class need touch-attack attacks anyways.

They should of just bumped the die of the guns like for crossbows. make a pistol do 2d6 with that x4 crit you have a solid weapon that is worth all the effort and does good damage. give the gunslinger a grit thing that allows them to do a touch attack at all the appropriate measurements. then give them let guns work better with all the reload feats and grit ability's so you can actually fire with two weapons. as opposed to the ridiculousness of having to have additional limbs to load your weapons.

what wouldn't be bad is emptying weapons on the first round and having to take the next to reload everything very reasonable.

Shadow Lodge

i don't really understand everyone's fascination with building TWF gunslingers. Yes, guns will allow you to do a fair amount of damage using touch attacks with full bab, but everyone seems to just skim over the misfire rules though, there are two ways around misfires that i can see so far, buying the right magic equipment or getting to 13th level pistolero/musket master, so if you end up dipping in alchemist that puts you back to 15th level before you avoid misfires.

why magic equipment isn't really going to work well:

depending on your build you're going to need to spend either 18600 on your two +1 reliable pistols or 70100g on two +1 greater reliable double barreled pistols (because hey, if you're trying to make as many attacks per round, why aren't you using the guns that allow you to double your freaking attacks) to reduce your misfire to 0

according to the character wealth by level chart, assuming you spend 25% of your gold on weapons, you're looking at halfway though 10th for the pistols, the cheaper option, or just after 15th level for the double barreled pistols.

Those weapon enchants i mentioned become useless once you hit pistolero 13 by the way.

for those interested in some chances of misfires:

here is a table comparing the number of shots fired in a round to the misfire value, i took it to 16 attacks because that's the most attacks you could get with a pistolero before gun training makes you never misfire with pistols (that's 3 from your bab, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, rapid shot and haste while using double barrled pistols). these values are the chances that at least one of your guns will misfire during a full round attack. (note that if you aren't using double barreled pistols you'll get 8 attacks max at 12th.

____1____2___3___4
1__.05__.1___.15__.2
2__.1___.19__.28__.36
3__.14__.27__.39__.49
4__.19__.34__.48__.59
5__.23__.41__.56__.67
6__.26__.47__.62__.74
7__.3___.52__.68__.79
8__.34__.57__.73__.83
9__.37__.61__.77__.87
10_.4___.65__.8___.89
11_.43__.69__.83__.91
12_.46__.71__.86__.93
13_.49__.75__.88__.95
14_.51__.77__.9___.96
15_.54__.79__.91__.96
16_.56__.81__.93__.97

and for those who don't want to take the pistolero then getting your 4th attack from your bab might mean something if you are using double barreled pistols

____1____2___3____4
17_.58__.83__.94__.98
18_.6___.85__.95__.98

if you really want to go bullets a blazing, just get one double barreled pistol, it lets you effectively two weapon fight with out getting the actual feats or use the ridiculous work arounds to reload with two guns.

cool things about gunslingers using two guns:

  • looks cool
  • has good DPR on paper

things that aren't cool about gunslingers using two guns:

  • misfires
  • cost of reducing said misfires
  • stupid work arounds to reload your two guns at once
  • sucks up feats
  • needing a stupid amount of free actions to reload

as BYC mentioned, a GM can put a restriction on how many free actions you can make in a round, so just remember that when you are TWF with those guns you're reloading and firing your gun as fast as a monk(at your level) flurries, faster if you use rapid shot, so don't be surprised if your DM turns around and says no.

as you might be able to tell, i do not like the idea of gunslingers using two guns...

as a final note, as always, talk to your GM, some GMs might allow you to reload your guns 18 times in a round (i know i wouldn't, you'd be reloading and firing faster than this guy). Also if you ever plan on making a TWF gunslinger, ask yourself this, is it worth sucking until around 13th level before you become awesome? if you're starting at a high level then this might not be an issue, but most campaigns finish around or before that level, not start.

Dark Archive

vidmaster wrote:

It dumb that you have to make gimmicks around the system to make firearms work how they are suppose to work. I like firearms i do i'm not hating on firearms in my fantasy i'm fine with that. The way they are implemented is the rules for them is silly. Its needlessly complicated what you have to do to get multiple attacks. its silly that their touch attacks when arrows have just as much right to be. and why does a full bab class need touch-attack attacks anyways.

They should of just bumped the die of the guns like for crossbows. make a pistol do 2d6 with that x4 crit you have a solid weapon that is worth all the effort and does good damage. give the gunslinger a grit thing that allows them to do a touch attack at all the appropriate measurements. then give them let guns work better with all the reload feats and grit ability's so you can actually fire with two weapons. as opposed to the ridiculousness of having to have additional limbs to load your weapons.

what wouldn't be bad is emptying weapons on the first round and having to take the next to reload everything very reasonable.

Paizo is usually very cautious about designing new classes, and understandably so. I'm still not sure if the gunslinger is too good, too bad, or just about right. I just haven't paid too much attention to the various DPR threads on gunslingers, so I'm not exactly sure where they were on the power scale.

I think the real problem is spending entire rounds to reload is not fun. Combats often end after 3-4 rounds, so if the gunslinger fired twice, and is reloading twice, it's just not that exciting or fun. All other classes are doing something every round, but gunslingers would have to reload. A crossbow has this problem as well, but it's only a single weapon. An entire class that has to spend entire rounds reloading would have sucked. So Paizo created paper cartridges to assist with this at the cost of higher misfire and a lot more gold (relatively speaking).

The touch attack thing is interesting, since flat-footed makes more sense. But I believe they did that from a balance standpoint. At high levels, big monsters usually have lots of natural armor instead of lots of deflection or dodge bonuses. The flat-footed AC wouldn't be that useful, combined with reloads, making a pretty terrible class.

Higher damage dice is fun, but ultimately a good static bonus is what's important for high damage. I think the touch AC brought down the damage dice, and the first range increment and low range was clearly put in there as a balancing factor. I'm okay with the damage dice, and Paizo did a further balancing thing with the gun training kicking in at level 5, making guns not high damage unless the character is committed to the class.

Overall I don't think the rules are too complicated, especially the mess that summoners have to deal with. I think the rules pretty much implies it's not really possible to do TWF with 2 pistols effectively. A GM could definitely put a limit on number of free actions for reloads, picking up the weapon with weapon cord, etc. Advanced firearms are clearly the way to go for this, but they are definitely more powerful than most weapons and would be unbalancing.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Play a vanara, they have prehensile tails to help with loading.

Having a Wis and Dex bonus certainly doesn't hurt either. On top of that, you're a monkey with a gun - instant hilarity!

The Cha penalty would hurt a wandering stranger, though...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Axiem wrote:
So he wants to dual wield his pistols, since every art piece in the book shows gunslingers dual wielding pistols - He wants the kick-the-door-in guns-blazing devil-may-care attitude robin-hood type of hero that all the art seems to depict.

The art you're mentioning seems to all feature revolvers. If you crank up the world's gun setting to "Advanced" and just use revolvers, virtually all the problems of two-fisted gunship go away.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
BYC wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
BYC wrote:

I'm almost positive once you are higher level, the weapon cord will cause problems by allowing the gunslinger to take a lot of shots all as touch attacks.

At level 6, with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, using Grit for Focused Aim (let's assuming 16 CHA), that's 4 shots, that's 4d8 + 20, all as touch attacks. If your party is heavily optimized, this is not an issue. If not, I bet somebody will complain at some point. Also remember free actions can be limited by the GM now, as it is stated in Core under free actions.

Yes, you can get a lot of shots in by dual-wielding pistols and using weapon cords. However, the shooter only gets to target touch AC in the first range increment of early firearms (20 ft for regular pistols or double barreled pistols); with early fireams, that puts you within reach of a large creature with a reach weapon. The Deadeye deed can increase that, but only at the cost of 1 grit point per range increment (1 grit for 40 ft, 2 grit for 60 ft, etc.) and normal range penalties still apply.

Also, per the rules on weapon cords, you cannot wield another weapon in the hand with a weapon cord attached. That's a pretty big drawback when you're shooting targets at close range (although the Pistol-Whip deed at least lets you use the pistols as clubs).

Anybody who isn't an idiot knows this. I play a gunslinger, and I've GMed 2 more before. I know how it works. Are you trying to impress somebody with your knowledge of the rules or something?

You were the one who stated "I bet somebody will complain at some point" about the damage from dual-wielding pistols unless "your party is heavily optimized." You also failed to provide any context that you were viewing this from any other perspective than "4 shots, that's 4d8 + 20, all as touch attacks." I was simply pointing out that there are some pretty big drawbacks from it, which you didn't mention.


Meh. Juggle your guns?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Writer wrote:
Meh. Juggle your guns?

This is something I'd have to agree with.. I forget what anime's I watched, but that is exactly what they did.

Here is how I imagine it.. Player fires one shot each gun. Using a quick flip of the wrist he keeps them suspended in the air and opens them in the same action. Then draws two things of ammo (conveniently placed on his belts), thrusts them into the guns and closes the guns in the same action, then grabs the grips and is ready to fire again. Course it would need alchemical charges to do.

but I agree its lame that they constantly show two pistol wielding gunslingers, and don't put anything in for it.. It would be like putting in pictures of a wizard casting some crazy spells.. only to put those spells under the cleric list.. or worse, have the wizard not be able to cast any spells.

Shadow Lodge

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Gun Juggling (Combat, Grit)
Prerequisites: Gun Training with selected one handed Firearm, Weapon Focus with selected one handed Firearm, Rapid Reload with selected one handed Firearm, Two weapon fighting, Sleight of Hand 6 ranks, Grit class feature
Benefit: When two weapon fighting with the one handed firearms you may juggle your firearms in order to reload both firearms. When reloading one of your firearms you may as a free action throw the other firearm in the air, reload the first firearm then catch the other firearm. Both firearms you are wielding must be selected for this feat. It costs 1 grit to perform this action, you only need to pay for the grit once per round. Once the grit has been spent this action can be used as many times as needed until the start of your next turn.
Normal:You cannot reload two one handed firearms without a large amount of BS
Special: You may select this feat more than once, each time you select this feat it applies to a new type of one handed firearm.


Skerek is win.


If I may make a slight suggestion to Gun Juggling? How about an optional Acrobatics / Slight of Hand check in place of a grit point?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, cause as is... you might be able to use that like one round in one fight.

Shadow Lodge

Ævux wrote:
Yeah, cause as is... you might be able to use that like one round in one fight.

you only need to pay the grit once per round


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yeah, but remember grit doesn't increase with level. So if you have 14 wisdom, you have 2 grit. Since you generally want to keep 1 point of grit at all times (due to many powers working as long as you have grit, or for that one moment you really need it), you have 1 round.


But as level increases, so does money. Eventually you'll be able to afford Wisdom enhancers, and maybe even an enchanted pistol that allows you to do something like this more easily or extra grit items? If you allow this feat into the game to begin with, obviously the goal is making reloading dual-wielded pistols easier, so I'm sure you'd allow other stuff.


Brinaku wrote:
But as level increases, so does money. Eventually you'll be able to afford Wisdom enhancers, and maybe even an enchanted pistol that allows you to do something like this more easily or extra grit items? If you allow this feat into the game to begin with, obviously the goal is making reloading dual-wielded pistols easier, so I'm sure you'd allow other stuff.

Gunslingers at least as the rules are written are going to be pretty poor. Also if you need to buy the feat as well as reliable guns and a +4 to wis that's alot of resources making this idea pan out around level 8 or later probably and by that point the game is like half over.

Also why do most of the grit feats have to suck so hard?


gnomersy wrote:
Also why do most of the grit feats have to suck so hard?

Probably, the designers were hesitant with the gunslinger. True, guns are awesome, and gunslingers in game are very neat. But it's sort of anachronistic with the rest of the game, and so they didn't want to overpower. Enemy NPCs can do everything with the guns, abilities, and feats available that PCs can, and it'd suck to run into a slightly-higher level enemy with guns that can decimate your party with a gun or two and some abilities. If you really want a gun-based game, they're out there. PfRPG is more focused on a medieval setting.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Brinaku wrote:
But as level increases, so does money. Eventually you'll be able to afford Wisdom enhancers, and maybe even an enchanted pistol that allows you to do something like this more easily or extra grit items? If you allow this feat into the game to begin with, obviously the goal is making reloading dual-wielded pistols easier, so I'm sure you'd allow other stuff.

Except as level increases the estimate number of rounds spent in combat also increases. And we are still only talking about a single fight here.

You already had to spend at least 1000 gold to duel wield pistols, and that is just the basic pistol. Then to get two masterwork pistols, you are looking at an additional 2600 gold.

The amount of alchemical charges used increases this further. An extra wisdom neckless would give you may 1-2 more grit points.

All of this, plus 4 feats, to only use your grit on trying to duel wield pistols at a -4 penalty.

Here is what I would do with it..

Requires: Rapid Reload, Slight of hand 1, Grit.
As long as you have at least one grit point, you may make a dc 15 slight of hand check to reload a 1handed firearm with one hand. If you fail, you drop the weapon. If you have at least 6 ranks in slight of hand, you no longer need to preform the check.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Brinaku wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Also why do most of the grit feats have to suck so hard?
Probably, the designers were hesitant with the gunslinger. True, guns are awesome, and gunslingers in game are very neat. But it's sort of anachronistic with the rest of the game, and so they didn't want to overpower. Enemy NPCs can do everything with the guns, abilities, and feats available that PCs can, and it'd suck to run into a slightly-higher level enemy with guns that can decimate your party with a gun or two and some abilities. If you really want a gun-based game, they're out there. PfRPG is more focused on a medieval setting.

I wouldn't call it a medieval setting. Sure we are running around with swords, and going to inns.. but they did that in FF7 too.


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gnomersy wrote:
Probably, the designers were hesitant with the gunslinger. True, guns are awesome, and gunslingers in game are very neat. But it's sort of anachronistic with the rest of the game, and so they didn't want to overpower. Enemy NPCs can do everything with the guns, abilities, and feats available that PCs can, and it'd suck to run into a slightly-higher level enemy with guns that can decimate your party with a gun or two and some abilities. If you really want a gun-based game, they're out there. PfRPG is more focused on a medieval setting.

I really wish people would stop saying PF is a medieval setting when its a mash up of several different eras.

example

my european knight entered himself into a Roman gladiator challenge only to lose to a halfling Ninja from the Sengoku period of japan weilding a cannon from the 18th century thats mounted on the back of a T-Rex that was wearing a helm of intelligence +6 and could untilize the monkey style of kung fu in combat.


stealth elite good show sir good show

Shadow Lodge

Ævux wrote:

Here is what I would do with it..

Requires: Rapid Reload, Slight of hand 1, Grit.
As long as you have at least one grit point, you may make a dc 15 slight of hand check to reload a 1handed firearm with one hand. If you fail, you drop the weapon. If you have at least 6 ranks in slight of hand, you no longer need to preform the check.

yeah that might do, although it really wouldn't take long for a gunslinger to not freaking drop it even without the 6 ranks clause, with 6 ranks you're looking at a +12 modifier minimum (assuming 16 dex which is pretty crappy for a gunslinger at 6th), hell a +5 modifier which is achievable before 6th would give you auto success at 6th


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's why at level 6 it is no longer a roll action, cause you will be shooting three times by then.


Get a gunslingers bandolier, Ultimate Equipment. I believe it allows for hands free reloads.


Correction: Beneficial bandolier, swift action teleport a round into a firearm.

Liberty's Edge

Eight years necro, this stuff has been covered to death and beyond. There are have been even FAQ about it and tons of feats, magic items and spells.


hey. yea just dualwield revolvers.

4 000 gold pieces worth, advanced firearm x 2

gunsmith should make it before u can take the 'pointblanck->precise->dual wield' feats

yes its advanced firearm and doesnt suit all campagins, but hey: parthfinder system is made of powergaming - and compare what can other classes of similar lvl do.

Shadow Lodge

Nettleburn wrote:

hey. yea just dualwield revolvers.

4 000 gold pieces worth, advanced firearm x 2

gunsmith should make it before u can take the 'pointblanck->precise->dual wield' feats

yes its advanced firearm and doesnt suit all campagins, but hey: parthfinder system is made of powergaming - and compare what can other classes of similar lvl do.

Did you seriously just necro a 3 year old post, which was itself a necro of an 8 year old discussion???

And your recommendation was to just use 'US Civil War' era weapons in an otherwise medieval-ish campaign setting, which was suggested by at least one poster 11 years ago???


idk whats necro.

pathfinder is far from medieval-ish. the guns can fit it.

[edit]
its not very much relevant that in our world revolvers were invented 500+- years after crossbow. there is actual gunslinger class to be allowed by gm. and if gunslinger can use just the basic guns invented around 100+- years before the revolvers it kinda holds not much logic.

the mechanics arent made for dualwielding any ranged (while u need to reload hand crossbow holding nothing in 1 hand) - its very clear. revolvers are the simplest if not the only solution here - for gunslinger that wana dualwield, and there are plenty of those.


Necro refers to when you reply to a dead discussion... the topic had not been replied to in years, and your reply brings it back from the dead. However, this is frowned upon because the original posters probably don't care anymore... as many questions asked are for specific builds in active campaigns... campaigns that have ended by the time your reply necro's the thread years after the question was asked.

Sometimes it's ok, sometimes new stuff came out after the question was asked... but in this case, you necro'ed a thread to post something that was already brought up. It's not necessary to reply to dead threads if you aren't at least going to add something new.


“Necro” is when you comment on a thread that has been inactive for a long time.

You say there isn’t logic in using just basic firearms, but the premise of Pathfinder is that its technology largely correlates with the late medieval/early modern era. It offers optional rules for archaic eras and later modern eras, but the baseline era focuses on “early firearms.”

Yes, there is an overlap of technologies in the baseline era. It doesn’t make the most sense for, e.g., the technology to make field plate, full plate, and half plate to be available, but for those armors to not be prolific as they were in the real world. It makes even less sense, however, for advanced firearms to be available in the same timeframe as those armors… since advances in firearms made them (and a whole lot of weapons) obsolete. By the time revolvers come around, almost all of the themes and tropes associated with the fantasy/sword and sorcery genres have disappeared from most of the world.

Personally, I think Paizo shouldn’t have gone the Gunslinger route; I think they missed a trick by not designing a hybrid melee/ranged full BAB class with class features focusing on historic “combination weapons” like the ax-pistol.

Shadow Lodge

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"Emerging Guns" is the default setting for Pathfinder, which basically means "Guns are only used by specialists, and basically only early guns at that" This option allows gunslingers to exist while explaining why you don't see every martial character with a firearm.

Firearms and gunslingers are not for every campaign, and even if you are excited about introducing firearms into your campaign, you should still make a decision about how commonplace they are. The following are broad categories of firearm rarity and the rules that govern them. Pathfinder's world of Golarion uses the rules for emerging guns, which is also the default category of gun rarity detailed in this Pathfinder RPG supplement.

No Guns: If you do not want guns in your campaign, simply don't allow the rules that follow. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game plays perfectly well without them.

Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced firearms, the gunslinger class, the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and archetypes that use the firearm rules do not exist in this type of campaign. Firearms are treated more like magic items—things of wonder and mystery—rather than like things that are mass-produced. Few know the strange secrets of firearm creation. Only NPCs can take the Gunsmithing feat.

Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Gunsmithing feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves.

Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level.

Honestly, gunslingers don't need the additional damage from dual-wielding: Since they are often attacking against touch AC, the attack penalty doesn't really hurt much and you are basically just doubling their already impressive damage...

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