DarkHomer420's page

For an up coming game I'll be playing a similar character. After looking at things I decided to go Spellslinger 1/Magus 8(adventure starts at 9). Grit is nice but I would have to take at least 3 lvls of Gunslinger to get some abilities I liked and that took away to much arcane oomph.

Taking magus gets you your cantrips back but you're still limited by your opposition schools as they're prepared spells, and gives some extra gun boosting from your arcane pool. Myrmidarch seems nice, but since it doesn't say that Spellcombat works with ranged weapons, you'd be limited to either casting or shooting your gun, you can't do both. So now the big draw would be Spellstrike being ranged, but Spellslinger already gives you that with a better list of spells to use.

So depending on how much arcane "gun mage" vs gunslinger with some spells you want I'd suggest Spellslinger 1/Magus 19 or Spellslinger 1/ Gunslinger 7/Magus 12

I tend to imagine it like in western movies, after novaing with both pistols you're gonna have to duck behind a water barrel or something to reload for a turn. If you dislike permanent Reloading Hands on the pistols themselves you could try what my GM and I did, we went the Boots of Speed route and created a holster which is a free action to activate and has a limited number of rounds per day to use of Reloading Hands.

I have to love this post since there's a dhampir character in the CC game I'm GMing. He was keeping his racial heritage a secret right up to the point where the bard went to heal him after a tough fight and before he could say anything blasted him into unconsciousness. Ah, it was priceless.

I really like some of your ideas Cheapy, penciling out some Spellslinger/Myrmidarch builds but a couple questions...

1) Do opposistion schools from my wizard dip apply to my magus levels?

2) How useful is Reloading Hands? Everyone says it's good for TWF pistols but each casting only effects one weapon, so I'd need to cast it twice for my dual pistols before every getting off a shot. I think I'd rather focus on single pistol, though creating a magic item that casts it or pistols that have it innately(sp?) would be pretty wicked later on in the AP.

Thanks to everyone who's posted, these are exactly some of the ideas and suggestions I was looking for. :)

I play alot of Warmachine/Hordes so the feel I'm going for is like the Arcane Tempest gun mages from that setting. Arcane is the feel I'm going for, self powered as opposed to a divine caster which would be powered by an outside force, not sure if I explained that right. The Spellslinger I felt traded away to much for what it gets but might be worth a second look. All in all what I would have really liked somewhere in UC would have been a firearm using version of the Arcane Archer PrC.

I changed the history? Where? Where does it say the founder was LG? Point it out for me, please! It does say he told the CHurch of Aroden to stick it. Why did they promptly call his order 'Hellknights', if he was 'merely' a LN sort, hmm?

1/4 of the orders and basically everyone in them are outright evil (very few LN and no LG in those orders). That's 25% of all Hellknights. Now, a quarter to a half of all Hellknights in the LN orders are LE. Let's say that's 25% of all Hellknights,not including those above. And a minute fraction are wondering what the idiots in the LG orders are about and we'll forget about them. The LG orders are probably 30% LG and 70% LN, because LG people don't tend to flock to being Hellknights. And they are distinctly in the minority in all Hellknight orders, I believe was mentioned?

Can you show us where you got your numbers from? The LE orders count as all LE but the LG are only 30% LG? And the LN orders are up to half LE? Yeah, I'm sure none of this is skewed toward your bias. :P

Will be starting Jade Regent soon and I think I want to run a character concept I've been kicking around for awhile, an arcane gunslinger/gun mage build. Now I wasn't very impressed with the Spellslinger archetype but have been looking at the Myrmidarch for the magus which I like except for having to wait til 4th for the ranged spellstrike. So I'm turning to the community for any ideas you guys have for doing such a build. Keep it to official Pathfinder products, I'm more interested in suggestions about class levels and feats but just for anyone who cares it will be a 25pt buy. Thanks for any help and inspiration you can offer.

Oh James, you are a sick, sick man. (and Batman is so totally NG :P )

Quote:

But, once again, a Paladin who is operating in lands where slavery is legal, knows the score. He should be working every day to change the circumstance, change the law, promote goodness, etc. But, unless he's prepared to smite you know... everybody, he has to work within the system.

and watch evil happen right in front of his eyes, stand by and let them happen. I think that works for a paladin in an abstract sense if he KNOWS its happening...until it happens right in front of him and he's morally obligated to stop it.

But he's not obligated to throw his life away if it accomplishes nothing, his death won't fix the system which is what needs to be changed. Check out the paladin entry in the CoT players guide, it spells out how a paladin in Cheliax would work to change things without charging in sword first and rocking the boat. If you piss off the government and they have you killed you will not be able to bring hope and joy to the masses.

That was part of my original design for this prestige class, that it does permit access to evil abilities. Hell is about corruption, and any one who thinks they can dabble with its power without fear of being tainted is naive at best. That's part of why the Hellknights have such strict sensibilities regarding discipline, in part to assure that their initiates don't become pawns of an otherworldy agenda. The longer you're exposed to Hell's influence, though, and the more powerful you become, the more temptations there are, and one manifestation of this is access to powers that are legitimately evil.

This is why I actually prefer how the PrC was presented in the AP originally, it was spelled out the the longer you were in service to the Hellknights, ie the more levels you had in the PrC, the more cold, detached, and cruel you became. Mechanically it works better as a 10 lvl progression as written in the world guide, but some fluff was lost in the translation. :)

While I might hop up and down stamp my feet, and insist you cant pars the Law out of Lawful Evil, and that if you deal with Hell, use their tools their methods, and use them as a model, you are going to come away tainted. In game terms your character will eventually slip towards an evil alignment bit by bit. I think that the Hell knight is the perfect example of a LE champion. It may not have been presented that way intended that way, nor may the source materiel be written that way, I think they fit hand in glove with Chiliax and the LE mechanicions of Hell and by extension the Cheliaxian Empire. I think that the House of Thrune probably believes that they are in control and merely use devils as a tool of order, but I think Asmodeus would be quite happy to let them live with their illusion of control, while he binds them tighter to Hell. Asmodeus may do the same thing with the Hell knights. Asmodeus may be pleased they are striding forth in the name of law, the whole while it is law without mercy or justice, and in some long term plan, Asmodeus might be using the Hell knights as an ultimate perversion of the law, slowly subtly and over time. There is alot in a name. All of that is merely my opinion.

My take on this is that while they are a LN organization any association with Hell must ultimately corrupt. While their strict adherence to the Measure and the influence of the LG minority among them helps to slow this corruption, they're still on the downward spiral to LE. If you already see brutality and an iron fist as useful tools to enforce order pretty soon those become the first tools you reach for.

I really think people should read both the Council of Thieves AP and it's Player's Guide if they are interested in either Hellknights or paladins in Cheliax. It's pure RP gold and sheds some light on how LG champion would function in a country controlled by a LE government.

DarkHomer420 wrote:

I myself am planning on running a Paladin of the Godclaw/Hellknight for a module my GM is gonna do, should be a hoot. :)

I'm playing one of these right now and its awwwweeesome. Here's my Godclaw Code of Conduct, which is based around the codes of the various aspects in the Faiths of... books. He also has the Oath against Savagery and is from Lastwall, so some of these may not apply to others.

Thanks for posting up your CoC, I'll be sure to stea...er "borrow" some of them when building my own. ;) I've been playing around more with the ideals that each diety represents and how they'd relate to a paladin's code.

This thread has certainly brought up a bunch of stuff me and my GM have been discussing as far as how a paladin would view himself as a Hellknight, those he served directly with, his order, and all the orders as a whole. Obviously paladins won't be part of every order, the Gate (primarily arcane diabolists) quickly springs to mind, but others would fit rather well, Order of the Scourge who hunt known criminals and lawbreakers for example. Having read Pathfinders #27 and #28 about a dozen times now there are a few things which have been stated that I take issue with.

1) Hellknights venerate Asmodeus

This is false. While some my personally turn to him, as a whole, faith is a personal and private issue among the Hellknights. As long as you preform your duties no one cares who your patron deity is, or if you even have one. The exception to this is the God Claw who include Asmodeus as part of their pantheon, seeing him as a tactitian and strategist.

2) Hellknights run around with summoned devils

Again false. Outside of the Order of the Gate, who as stated before are devil summoning D-bags, devils are rarely summoned and then primarily for training on military tactics and to kill to join the knighthood.

3) Hellknights can summon up hellhounds

Well yes, if they choose to. One you have to take the discipline, Tracker, to do so and then it's one of six options you have, the others being animals. Since the ability states it works as Summon Monster, except for duration, I see no reason that you couldn't choose a celestial version over a fiendish one, up to the individual knight.

4) Hellknights are running around with Unholy weapons

Again, yes they can if they choose to. However they also have the options of Axiomatic and Flaming Burst neither of which will be taboo for a paladin to use.

As for the Infernal Armor class ability, this is one where we get to what is to me the core of playing a Pal/HlK. In the original Hellknight PrC from #27 the levels where broken up by three paths, the Measure, the Chain, and the Hellion, and Infernal Armor came right there in the middle of Hellions path. Now as you progressed down theese paths it becomes harder to do so and stay true to higher ideals, so that by the time you reach the Path of the Hellion you've kinda given up on humanity doing what's "right" without having it's arm twisted, and as such have left behind your Paladin's code as well. The rules try to mirror the effect on a "beat cop" who may start out with high ideals but eventually gets mired in the muck of daily dealing with humanitys dregs.

@JJ and or Wes
While not specifically stated anywhere, we assumed the pantheon of the God Claw to be LN and I just wanted to get a official word on that, for issues such as a clerics Aura and can they produce paladins.

They certainly can be, several of the NPCs listed in the Hellknight orders are LG and/or are paladins. Some of the things that happen among the Hellknights I imagine wouldn't sit well with a pally's code, but nothing forbids them. I myself am planning on running a Paladin of the Godclaw/Hellknight for a module my GM is gonna do, should be a hoot. :)

I actually like this story. Obviously a bit of GM fiat but the choice facing the paladin is to either hold to his beliefs and doom reality, as was stated without Asmodeus creation couldn't be completed, or sacrifice himself and his soul to save the world. Just picturing someone play out that awful choice sounds like all kinds of awesome RP story fun.

As to the original discussion, I think it all comes down to "working with" is not the same as "serving". A paladin would work with Asmodeus' servants towards a common goal, ie Worldwound, but would never be one of those servants himself.

You really would be casting ray of frost more than a handful of times?

I'm sorry, but I can't really buy that.. the 1d3 is too small damage to be worth an action for a PC.

Ok, so of the three examples I gave you see no point in one, what about the others? The idea was that in combat those spells serve a purpose, no matter how insignificant, while Mark doesn't, at least on a regular basis.

@Banatine

The spending of a feat is a character resource, hence why I've said grabing an arcana, either through class feature or feat, solves this problem. Your power attacking fighter trained how to that, so I don't have an issue. And I said that it could work into a cool character concept, I do really like your's by the way :) , but I don't see every magus having that as a concept yet the proposal to use Mark has been on a universal basis under the idea that the class needs it to function in a combat capacity.

Most spell casters wouldn't run around casting random spells if they didn't get something out of their spells. Especially not touch range spells. How does expecting a return on an investment equal "cheese, pure and simple."

Ok, this is how I look at it, what if instead of a magus I was playing a ftr/wiz? Is it conceivable that at some point I'd cast Shocking Grasp( or Touch of Fatigue, Ray of Frost, etc) against my opponent? That I'd cast it more than a hand full of times? I think the answer to that is yes. Now how about Arcane Mark? How many times will I use Arcane Mark in combat as a ftr/wiz? Honestly not that often. So why does the magus? Because he's doing it for no other reason then to generate an extra attack. It smacks to me of meta-gaming, your character has no valid story reason to be marking all his foes, unless you give him one I guess, actually playing Zorro might be fun. But I doubt most people are doing this to play a Zorro concept, the feeling is most are doing it to generate attacks at no cost of character resources.

I live just an hour from the Tillamook cheese factory here in Oregon. I love's me some aged extra-sharp cheddar.

I am sooo jealous! I love some Tillamook extra sharp Special Reserve, though my fave right now is Beetcher's Flagship, try it if you get the chance.

The more I consider the magus issue the more I think a simple touch cantrip GM hand waved onto the list is the best answer since the cost of an arcana or a feat just to be able to flurry against mooks is just a smidge expensive for the return.

This is where I would point out that this technique is not at no-cost. There is a higher AC on the target, a -2 penalty to hit on top of that, and either a required concentration check or suffer an attack of opportunity.

Which is suffered no matter what spell you cast. The using of Arcane Mark is purely in an effort to get an additional attack with out spending a spell slot. The penalties are the same, the resources spent to do it are not, that's what I meant by no cost. But I do agree that by RAW it's kosher, but if doesn't leave the taste of extra sharp cheddar in your mouth then we just have different tolerances for cheese. ;)

My issue is not with the damage gained from an extra attack, in fact I imagine the class is based around it. My issue comes from trying to rationalize the use of Arcane Mark in order to do it. If you can honestly say that in any other situation you'd cast it as a touch attack to mark any enemy repeatedly then maybe I'd believe it wasn't just gaming the system. I certainly think the creation of a new touch cantrip would be an easy fix, but still hold to the thought of just spending the 3rd lvl arcana to create the flurry ability is still valid. The magus still "flurries" by casting a standard lvl 1+ spell, the issue is being able to flurry constantly at no cost, ie the use of an unlimited cantrip.

Is it allowed by the RAW? Yes, I think it is. Is it exploitative? Would said Magus run around Arcane Marking all his foes if he didn't get an extra weapon attack? No, he wouldn't. So just invest an arcana or feat and pick up Close Range for Ray of Frost or Spell Blending for Touch of Fatigue and stop trying to rationalize your Zorro magus. It's cheese, pure and simple.

Shooting off an email now if there's still need.

overdark wrote:

I like how you avoid the part where the gunslinger outperformed the archer in the example and instead focused on the monster.

Yes, I ignored the random damage numbers you pulled out of your butt, to focus on the fact that you had an unrealistic to-hit numbers needed. I'm quite capable of doing the math to see how much damage an attack routine will do, but if you input random garbage numbers you just made up on the spot, surprise surprise, you get random garbage outputs!

Make a broken gunslinger. If it's so obviously broken, it'll be easy.

Sorry, Overdark has already stated that they are borken and as such your fancy "numbers" and "logic" have no place here. :P

Drake, though I'm not a fan of the pre reqs, Dodge and Mobility, I am curious there was no mention of Deft Shootist. While the shooting AoO can be avoided by moving before firing I think the no AoO from reloading might be handy. Also, while Mysterious Stranger may be a sub par DPR choice it can help alleviate some MAD if going for a Holy Gun or Bard/Gunslinger build (something I myself am looking at).

Boo, oh well thanks for the help guys.

I had similiar thought too, dip in for Mysterious Stranger but I had thought to just pick up straight Pally, not sure how I feel about trading Smite for Smiting Shot. *shrug*

Just got UC and was thinking of running a Kensai in my brother-in-law's Jade Regent campaign. What I want to know is, is there a feat that allows me to use my INT modifier in place of my STR for attack and/or damage rolls? And if so which book is it in? Would prefer Pathfinder products if possible. Thanks :)

I'll second Order of the Godclaw and the Nail. Godclaw knights often travel abroad as kinda knights errant who bring their view of an ordered world to the lands. The knights of the Nail, while based out of Korvosa, do some of their recruiting out of Lastwall from those who battle against the teeming hordes.

this is the part where a G.I.Joe should jump in

Knowing is half the battle

There you go Austin ^_^

There are several Paladins in high rank within some of the Hellknight orders. The Hellknights are dedicated to law, and law is a large part of a Paladin, too. The orders of the Godclaw, the Nail, and the Scourge have LG high-ranking officials (with the Godclaw having a Paladin).

So, there should be a way to make it work.

Yes, I understand that there are 5 LG Hellknights presented in What Lies in Dust, one of which is a paladin, though if you look she is a Hellknight in training and has no levels of the Hellknight PrC. Of the other four none have more then 3 levels of the PrC, so are still focused on the Path of the Measure, learning, memorizing, and meditating on the laws they are tasked with upholding. So while, by the crunch, paladins are allowed, I'm more curious about how this work in the fluff.

When the order of knighthood you belong to expouses such beliefs as, "each Hellknight is a tyrant, exacting his order’s strictures in the hopes of reordering society one soul at a time" and "Hellknights learn to embrace and exemplify a mindset alien to most mortals—an emotionless, cold existence wherein each member offers himself in sacrifice to a goal greater than any individual".

These statements, especially the parts I bolded, seem to go against the core principals of the paladin. I guess I can see a new recruit to the Hellknight maintaining their beliefs in good but as the progress in the order I don't see any other option then those beliefs being ground away.

For an upcoming campaign I'll be playing in, I began reading alot of the Cheliaxian background and fell in love with this kingdom of tarnished glory and lost virtue. After kicking around several character ideas I started to settle on the idea of a Hellknight, with the idea of a kinda divine knight of Law. Thinking of a paladin for my base class sounded just like what I wanted, but as I read more on the Hellknights themselves, as far as beliefs and the tenets of their orders, I sort of found myself asking, "How would a paladin even function with these guys?".

While a paladins desire for law would easily be satisfied, the first time a fellow Knight roughed up a individual or dispassionately carried out a sentence wouldn't they get a bit offended? Even if the paladin actively avoided assignments or other Knights who might put them in a delicate situation, eventually they will receive an order from a superior counter to their belief in good, and among a knightly military order founded on the template of the legions of Hell chain of command would be paramount.

So tl;dr, how do others see paladins working within the ranks of the Hellknights? Am I missing something?

The Rich Parents trait can give a starting character 900gp, so it is posible to have the fundage if your GM will allow it.

Another question: Could a gunslinger pay just the masterwork cost to start with a masterwork gun? Like pay just the 300gp, and have the gun he/she starts with be masterwork?

Was talking to my brother-in-law and we figured that was ho we'd work it. My question though is can a wizard take a masterwork firearm as their Arcane bond item? Had a concept for a arcane "Gun Mage" and thought that might be kinda cool.

The section labeled feats states that the deed feats add to your available deeds, so yes that's how they all work. I do think that the other deed feats should be rewritten in the same style as Deft Shootist to make this more obvious.

This just adds to my feeling that the Gunslinger should be moved to a base class, then no worries about baseing class skills of of the Fighters.

As they are now, the Deft Shootist Deed feat is the only one that makes it very clear that they add this deed to your curent stable of deeds. Guess I'd just like to see them all written in the same fashion as Deft Shootist for the second round of play testing, which will be when I get a chance to actually play test the class.