PF it's not a game for solo monster / NPC :)
If you want to put a dragon, or another solo monster, you have to prepare carefully. It has to be played with intelligence, if he has a treasure he will use it, and he will use at best all of his powers. If this is not enough, maybe you beed to raise the CR.
Under the right circumstances with preparation and clever encounter design a single CR 11 Dragon can wipe the floor with a Level 9 party.
You are right if the party consists of four rogues.
Soooooo, popping a Dragon into convenient bow shot range of a Paladin who has all his smites left with Dragon bane Arrows is NOT an indication that the CR system is broken.
Why would he need more than ONE smite?
A green dragon should do his lair underwater.
Well, I see this one has turned out exactly like the last.
Whats your opinion, pray tell?
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Can't show you the sheet, but I will try to give the most important stats as I remember them:
PB 20.
Gnome.
Str: 10
Dex: 18
Cha: 22His weapon: a small +1 giant bane longbow
(using dragon bane arrows)Relevant feats:
WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim.
Buffs on him at the time: Haste.
That would make his attack progression somewhat like:
+23/+23/+23/+18/+13
with 3d6 + 12
Or
+20/+20/+20/+15/+10
(deadly aim - I think he used that)with 3d6 + 20
First attack would get another +9 dmg.
The dragon had AC 24, buffed to 28.
One attack missed, no crits.
Total dmg (four hits): 12d6 + 89 (mean 131, max 161). Dragons HP: 136.
EDIT: Forgot the size bonus, edited it in.
We are getting way off track and ignoring the obvious questions.
First, this gnome has an 18 dex and a 22 charisma, which would tell me it's probably not a 15 point buy (what the CR is based off of).
2rd, without full equipment we have no idea where they are with regards to WBL. Which is what CR is based off of.
So two factors off the bat indicate this is an above CR player. Now we add in the fact that someone hasted the Paladin in the first round (one action from a party member consuming resources) and we now have two players who soloed the dragon, not one.
Additionally, the Paladin has consumed one of the two times they can do this per day (at that level)
So we can guess the Paladin should at least be a few CR higher, and that this encounter consumed a highish level spell from a caster, several specialized arrows, and one of two smites per day.
Now moving on to the Dragon. A Young Adult Green Dragon is a CR 11.
Even though it somehow has teleportation, it decided to pick it's fight in an open field without any cover.
The dragon has woodland stride, so it could have done flyby attacks through a forest that gave cover against ranged attacks. It could have used silent image and summon monster to create distractions from a distance, using it's 200 ft fly through the forest combined with 18 stealth to do hit and run tactics.
Then it would have been a more interesting fight.
But what it appears we have is an above 15 point buy above WBL character buffed by a party member fighting under more or less optimal conditions.
So the outcome isn't surprising.
Guys, read my posts!
I wrote that he was a PB 20.
Also, he can use smite evil three time per day at lvl 9, not two times.
EDIT:
I also wrote that the WPL of the character is a bit lower than what the chart gives.
Equipment: Aside from the bow I believe he had a +2 Cha and a +2 Dex booster, an amulet of natural armor +2 and a +1 armor of some kind (mithral breastplate I believe). Thats more or less it. A few consumables (among them 10 dragon bane arrows). Around 30.000 gp. Significantly less than the 46.000 gp that are considered "normal" for lvl 9.
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin)
Why would an intelligent, evil dragon NOT be slightly cutthroat? It's just basic tactics, and nothing more than he PC's would use. If it's fine for the PC's, it's fine for the monsters.
And it isn't excessively cutthroat. Excessive would be coating it's claws and teeth in purple worm poison, use a scroll of Deeper Darkness and Silence, getting greater invisibily, bull's strength, bears endurance and owl's wisdom, teleport in at night when they're asleep and Go CrAzY :D.
The DM isn't being cutthroat by having monsters act according to their abilities and personality.
I don't care what the circumstances are. You shouldn't have to be excessively cutthroat (teleporting the dragon in, invisable, next to the paladin)
Why would an intelligent, evil dragon NOT be slightly cutthroat? It's just basic tactics, and nothing more than he PC's would use. If it's fine for the PC's, it's fine for the monsters.
And it isn't excessively cutthroat. Excessive would be coating it's claws and teeth in purple worm poison, use a scroll of Deeper Darkness and Silence, getting greater invisibily, bull's strength, bears endurance and owl's wisdom, teleport in at night when they're asleep and Go CrAzY :D.
The DM isn't being cutthroat by having monsters act according to their abilities and personality.
You are right if the party consists of four rogues.
Under the right circumstances with preparation and clever encounter design a single CR 11 Dragon can wipe the floor with a Level 9 party.
See above.
Guys, adding to the dragon helpers, treasure, and other circumstantial bonus increase it's CR. The whole point is t how a CR 11 dragon can pose a threat to this paladin, not how a dragon CR 15 thank to 2+ caster/supporter + PC wealth + a bunch of additional trick can do that.
A young green dragon has a treasure of about 21k in medium progression (triple standard). Above I spent about 2100 + 150 * 3 + 375 + 700 = 3625 gold pieces of that (in addition to the greater teleport which OP said was fixed by some other party).
The players being under-wealthed combined with being on a high point buy evens out.
And as said, to pose a threat it requires far less than my example (which would probably slaughter them all). Shooting range in a forest is severely limited. Shooting under water is severely limited.
EDIT: Also, wind. Severe winds cause a -4 penalty on all ranged attacks and a -4 penalty to fly checks - a good deal for the dragon. A windstorm would cause a -8 penalty to fly checks, meaning the dragon can't rely on flying in combat very well, but makes ranged attacks impossible.
Guys, adding to the dragon helpers, treasure, and other circumstantial bonus increase it's CR. The whole point is t how a CR 11 dragon can pose a threat to this paladin, not how a dragon CR 15 thank to 2+ caster/supporter + PC wealth + a bunch of additional trick can do that.
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Guys, read my posts!
I wrote that he was a PB 20.
Also, he can use smite evil three time per day at lvl 9, not two times.
EDIT:
I also wrote that the WPL of the character is a bit lower than what the chart gives.Equipment: Aside from the bow I believe he had a +2 Cha and a +2 Dex booster, an amulet of natural armor +2 and a +1 armor of some kind (mithral breastplate I believe). Thats more or less it. A few consumables (among them 10 dragon bane arrows). Around 30.000 gp. Significantly less than the 46.000 gp that are considered "normal" for lvl 9.
You are correct on smite, but that is still one of your three uses a day. At 9th level you don't have a handy haversack or a bag of holding, etc?
Also, you get feats at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th, meaning the 4 feats you listed are pretty much all your feats...except I don't see Precise shot and Point Blank is a pre-requisite for Rapid Shot...
And as I said, open field against a ranged combatant when you have woodland stride? Flyby attacks with concealment all day.
Wow, a lot of pages to come up with "X creature died easily vs Paladin with bane arrows? You played creature X stupidly"
Paladins are really, really good.
When they use smite + Archery based, they become insane.
It's not how the dragon was played. Play a 1st level commoner intelligently enough, he can TPK a 9th level party.
However, the system does make Paladins very powerful. To the OP: Yep, paladins using smite and archery do probably more damage than any other build in the game. Was that your question?
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Guys, adding to the dragon helpers, treasure, and other circumstantial bonus increase it's CR. The whole point is t how a CR 11 dragon can pose a threat to this paladin, not how a dragon CR 15 thank to 2+ caster/supporter + PC wealth + a bunch of additional trick can do that.
He can be in the woods (his natural enviroment) using cover and concealment to do guerilla tactics with spells like silent image, charm person, entangle, etc...
Why would the dragon who has a +18 stealth not be in a place where it can use that stealth?
You can find it somewhere in the 400+ post discussion I linked in my first response.
Oh, I just skimmed through that and found a lot of opinions I agree with (I did not found yours, just a few snippets where you replied briefly to other posts).
Anyway:
My bottom line, with which I will now walk away from this discussion is:
Smite evil is fine
Deadly aim, manyshot and rapid shot in conjunction are fine.
The two abilities together can be problematic.
I don't think at all its a gamebreaker, but s.th. I will have to keep in mind while DMing.
Certainly the CR of evil outsiders and dragons are off a bit (I think probably about -2), if you have an "Archerdin" (as someone in the oldthread coined it) in the party.
Why would the dragon who has a +18 stealth not be in a place where it can use that stealth?
Last post: Because it had been ordered to kill the PCs with its friends and the PCS were on a steppe. Doh.
Why would he need more than ONE smite?
Play this encounter out a second time, considering my suggestions, and then tell me honestly wether the Paladin still wiped the floor with the Dragon... or continue trolling, your choice.
You are right if the party consists of four rogues.
No, I am right with any average party if the encounter is under water and the Dragon is prepared and has some access to Dispel Magic. All very reasonable given the fact that this Dragon has survived for up to 100 years and possesses 14 Int.
Wow, a lot of pages to come up with "X creature died easily vs Paladin with bane arrows? You played creature X stupidly"
Well, it's not really that it died easily. It should fall pretty easily since it's the esse of the paladin. If played smart, it wouldn't have been killed AS easily though.
It was taken out of it's environment, which means it isn't as dangerous. I believe that's even stated by the bestiary.
Last post: Because it had been ordered to kill the PCs with its friends and the PCS were on a steppe. Doh.
Why would the dragon who has a +18 stealth not be in a place where it can use that stealth?
So maybe the dragon should be well prepared...
Last post: Because it had been ordered to kill the PCs with its friends and the PCS were on a steppe. Doh.
Why would the dragon who has a +18 stealth not be in a place where it can use that stealth?
Yeah. It means that it wasn't a CR11 dragon anymore though, just like a dire shark wouldn't have been a CR9 monster.
EDIT: I think that the dragon's CR should have been adjusted like this:
Not in it's natural habitat: CR -1
Otherwise not using it's full potential: CR -1/-2
The other monsters didn't seem to do much to help it, so no boost for being in a team.
Basically, it's a CR8-9ish encounter. Which should be taken down pretty fast by a 9th level party, especially if one of the members is specialized at dealing with dragons.
If the dragon had been played smart, it could have been a decent challenge for the party, even alone. If it had used some tactics with the other assassins, it would've smashed the party to bits.
Repeating that the CR in the Bestiary assume optimal conditions for the monsters does not make it more true. But feel free to write the same things again and again.
Repeating that the CR in the Bestiary assume optimal conditions for the monsters does not make it more true. But feel free to write the same things again and again.
So you are saying that a Dire Shark teleported into a desert is a valid CR9 encounter? Or a Bulette is a valid CR7 encounter on the plane of air?
Or a rakshasha that spends it's turns poking it's nose? A level one sorcerer tarrasque that casts ray of frost the whole day?
It does. That's why they have those abilities. And that's a good thing, as it makes for more differentiated and interesting monsters. I have a strong memory of that actually being stated in black on white in the bestiary, but don't have access to it now. I'll be back on that.
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I can't help but notice that a big issue is being raised regarding the Pally smite, even though a fighter could manage big damage against ALL encounters.
The Pally stats of 10 Dex, 22 Cha. A fighter should at least be rocking 22 Str and 18 Dex and have an appropriate bow to make use of it.
So the FIghter should be shooting 5 attacks with damage of +5 (str) +4 (weapon specialisation and training? Maybe more?) +6 (Deadly Aim) plus he has spare feats.
So, I make that +15 damage per hit with my very limited knowledge of a Fighter, I bet someone that knows the class well could make that better. But my very basic Fighter is doing 5 damage less per shot, plus 9 less for first shot. So in a round he does 34 damage less, in future rounds he does 25 less.
So, ultimately, the Smite is allowing a Paladin specialised in killing the big bad evil to do so in 1 round rather than a Fighters 1.5 rounds. That doesn't seem so outrageous to me considering the Fighter's damage can likel be improved further. not to mention the spare feats which could allow him to have a 15ft threat range in case the dragon wants to disarm
Repeating that the CR in the Bestiary assume optimal conditions for the monsters does not make it more true. But feel free to write the same things again and again.So you are saying that a Dire Shark teleported into a desert is a valid CR9 encounter? Or a Bulette is a valid CR7 encounter on the plane of air?
Or a rakshasha that spends it's turns poking it's nose? A level one sorcerer tarrasque that casts ray of frost the whole day?
It does. That's why they have those abilities. And that's a good thing, as it makes for more differentiated and interesting monsters. I have a strong memory of that actually being stated in black on white in the bestiary, but don't have access to it now. I'll be back on that.
Your examples are absurd.
Consider the RotR AP. The two dragons encountered there
meet the party over open ground, outside of their lairs and without any extra equipment.
Nonetheless the designers chose to use the listed CR.
I guess you guys all know your stuff better than Paizos adventure designers....
snip
The smite damage is one thing, the +CHA to hit the other.
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It is not as simple as you make it sound either.
I was using the OP's example though. In that example he had been scrying on the party so the dragon comes in already invised along with a lamia, and 2 giants who I did not even account for yet.If I run a dragon I will probably try to ambush the party so one rounding my dragons for one reason or another has never happened. I may also use favorable terrain. Since the party is normally hunting the dragon they are usually fighting on the bad guy's terms so run up and hit is never as easy as "run up and hit".
I am curious:
- these dragons never go out hunting?- are always invisible and protected by buffing spells that last rounds or minutes for each spellcasting level?
- are constantly burning scrolls and potions to have full defences?
I see plenty of occasion to ambush dragons if you go hunting them.
In the OP situation:
- teleport on top of the party (if all go well, you don't miss teleport, you know the terrain [scrying the location work only if you have an idea of where it is and at best give you the seen casually precision]);
- roll initiative (the OP said that the party was aware they were scried upon, so no surprise);
- there is a very good chance that the NPC party will lose the initiative (all large or bigger critters, most of them with non stellar initiative) and that the paladin will act before them. No sundering weapons on a AoO;
- Ooops, you have placed the NPC spellcaster in rage of the PC party;
- eat the paladin archer full attack wile doing at best 1 AoO against him for each NPC (but then you have used up all your AoO and the other party members will be free to do as they please).
Why not heavily pre buffing with scroll and potions and spell by the "powerful" level 7 necromancer.
- as already mentioned 12% chance of miss teleporting. So what happen if they burn all your spell for the day and then mis-teleport?
- Scrying: Casting Time 1 hour, sorcerer/wizard 4 (so no buffing on the part of the 7 level caster before casting this), we are left with the 2 level sorcerer and the dragon casting a a 3rd level sorcerer. No level 2 spells.
- buffing after the scry attempt: it is feasible, but as the targets have noticed the scry attempt every round spent buffing is a round the targets can spend buffing. The 7nt level necromancer hasn't a a lot of spells: he is already burning level 4 spells: scrying and improved invisibility. The third level 4 spell is from his school, necromancy.
The only decent necromancy buffing spell I recall is False life (level 2).
So, unless the NPC are playing the "15 minute working day" and somewhat regenerate freely their resources there is little motivation to burn several expendable for an attack that has a 12% chance to completely miss the intended target.
Sure, you can use DM fiat and say:
- they will not mis-teleport;
- the stuff they use will regenerate if for some reason they don't get killed and don't kill the whole party;
- they know all the right spells, they have all the right spells memorized, they play the 15 minute day and have no need to conserve anything (like a spell to escape if necessary or something to use in a emergency if necessary).
I prefer to play my NPC like they ere PC, whit the same kind of limitation.
Morning Hyla,
In response to your request for tactics that could have been used (without adding in additional scrolls, potions or gear), I have a couple of questions (just trying to understand the tactical situation) and suggestions.
Is there any reason why the NPCs didn't have Invisibility up before teleporting in?
Is there any reason that the attack didn't happen at night, when the darkvision of the dragon, lamia and giants would have helped them? Not sure what the other races in the PC party were, but if only a few (or none) had darkvision, then a night attack would have been in order.
Giants throwing boulders from 60' away and dragon doing fly-bys and breathing would likely have made the encounter a bit more challenging.
If the dragon wanted to play with them a bit, it could have done a fly-by breath attack, made a bit of noise to get the paladin to call upon their divine powers (smite attack), to use a their resources, and then flown away. Repeat a few more times during the night. This would likely have made it so that all of the parties healing would have been used up (cleric spells) before the main attack.
This is on top of the suggestions to sunder the quiver or disarm the paladin (and at least one other weapon from a PC) and have the dragon fly away with the two weapons.
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Repeating that the CR in the Bestiary assume optimal conditions for the monsters does not make it more true. But feel free to write the same things again and again.So you are saying that a Dire Shark teleported into a desert is a valid CR9 encounter? Or a Bulette is a valid CR7 encounter on the plane of air?
Or a rakshasha that spends it's turns poking it's nose? A level one sorcerer tarrasque that casts ray of frost the whole day?
It does. That's why they have those abilities. And that's a good thing, as it makes for more differentiated and interesting monsters. I have a strong memory of that actually being stated in black on white in the bestiary, but don't have access to it now. I'll be back on that.
Your examples are absurd.
Consider the RotR AP. The two dragons encountered there
** spoiler omitted **
meet the party over open ground, outside of their lairs and without any extra equipment.
Nonetheless the designers chose to use the listed CR.
I guess you guys all know your stuff better than Paizos adventure designers....
Quick note: 3.5 Dragon CR was purposefully lowered, in order to make them more "worthy" of the name and dangerous at the printed CR. In Pathfinder, this went away - Dragons are now back in line with other creatures.
Repeating that the CR in the Bestiary assume optimal conditions for the monsters does not make it more true. But feel free to write the same things again and again.
No, it assume that a NPC with high intelligence will act according with it. A Tarrasque has not an optimal condition, it just ravages lands. An ancient dragon would be a different thing.
Now, the dragon you used it's 14 or 16 INT, I'm wrong? So why it wouldn't snake the character, or hire some NPC?There are a lot of monster with animal int that are a bad threat in the wild, but you can fool them easy. The dragon's CR depends also from the variety of options and the high INT rate. If you don't use it, you are playing an halved dragon.
Edit: to the OP
You are correct.
Paladins had a great lobby group working for em during the pathfinder open playtest, and still do.
I am glad to see smite got weakened somewhat in errata, wasn't aware of that. Still too potent IMO.
If you don't like the power of the pathfinder paladin I suggest you change the mechanics in your home games
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Edit: to the OP
You are correct.
Paladins had a great lobby group working for em during the pathfinder open playtest, and still do.
I am glad to see smite got weakened somewhat in errata, wasn't aware of that. Still too potent IMO.
If you don't like the power of the pathfinder paladin I suggest you change the mechanics in your home games
Smite is definitely awesome, and after years of 3.5 where the class was just pitiful and their special abilities of smite and LoH were beyond a joke, it's great that they are actually a good clas with great special abilities.
I do admit though, possibly the damage, AC and To Hit is overly generous. You could take away the To Hit part and I would still be happy.
Then again, a Ranger and his favoured enemy must be closing in on a +6 To Hit and +6 to Damage by now (maybe lvl 10?) for him AND his companion, so smite would start to look a bit depressing if it was against a favoured enemy of the Rangers
Hyla if you want more than guesswork, show the point buy, show the wealth for the character, show the character sheet.Relevant feats:
WF (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim.
How is a level 9 gnome paladin, that should have 5 feats able to afford this?
by my counting PBS, precise shot (which was stated he had), along with WF, Rapid shot, Manyshot and deadly aim is 6 feats.
Am i missing something here.
How is a level 9 gnome paladin, that should have 5 feats able to afford this?
by my counting PBS, precise shot (which was stated he had), along with WF, Rapid shot, Manyshot and deadly aim is 6 feats.
Am i missing something here.
AS I said I do not have the charcter sheet at hand. Possibly the character did not have WF.
If you don't like the power of the pathfinder paladin I suggest you change the mechanics in your home games
Oh no, I won't do that. The player would be pissed off and rightly so. Maybe in the next campaign. Although I really do not see the problem with the ability if the paladin is a melee fighter.
I'd just like to point out that the PRD does indeed state that a monster encountered in terrain favorable to the PCs does reduce the CR.
Ad Hoc CR Adjustments: While you can adjust a specific monster's CR by advancing it, applying templates, or giving it class levels, you can also adjust an encounter's difficulty by applying ad hoc adjustments to the encounter or creature itself. Listed here are three additional ways you can alter an encounter's difficulty.
Favorable Terrain for the PCs: An encounter against a monster that's out of its favored element (like a yeti encountered in a sweltering cave with lava, or an enormous dragon encountered in a tiny room) gives the PCs an advantage. Build the encounter as normal, but when you award experience for the encounter, do so as if the encounter were one CR lower than its actual CR.
So the dragon was a CR 10 simply right off the bat thanks to being out of its element.
So the dragon was a CR 10 simply right off the bat thanks to being out of its element.
I see certain substantial differences between a yeti in a lava cave and a dragon who is simply encountered over open ground.
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I see certain substantial differences between a yeti in a lava cave and a dragon who is simply encountered over open ground.So the dragon was a CR 10 simply right off the bat thanks to being out of its element.
So to be clear.
Your 9th level Gnome Paladin is reported to have Weapon Focus (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Deadly Aim. 4 Feats
Rapid Shot has Point Blank as a pre-requisite, so that would be the 5th feat (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th)
Now I note you do don’t have precise shot, so you are going to take a penalty whenever you fire into combat.
You were hasted by another party member at some point. A 3rd level spell and at least one party members standard action, and since the dragon was next to you
You were attacked on a steppe by a forest creature, completely negating several of the features of the creature and giving a ranged attacker a huge advantage of an area with absolutely no cover or concealment.
You happened to have 10 dragon bane arrows and you are immune to fear effects (frightful presence being one of the best Dragon abilities)
So you built a character basically for this purpose, and it was able to accomplish what it was made to do when confronted with a Forest Dragon Teleported to an open field without cover…for some reason…
Now put the dragon in a forest, and I’m guessing your low perception will be a problem (you don’t have the skill points to get it too high, and your Wisdom can’t be that great with the scores you posted. And of course the dragon would get concealment as it moved at full speed through the woods, isolating party members who are shaken due to frightful presence while maintaining cover.
Had you actually been surprised and not had your bow drawn, you would be burning a move action in the first round to pull it out (No Quick Draw). Not to mention that you have a 3 foot player wielding a 5 foot bow…but the rules allow it so whatever…
Dragon Bane arrows would be 2000 for 50, so 10 would be 400 gold. The five you fired would be 200 gold.
So the creature you had specifically prepared for in advance showed up in front of you in an open field and after you had been buffed by a party member you were able to “Solo” it.
Now let’s do the same thing with a Black Dragon, also CR 11. Dragon casts Darkness (at will) and now you can’t see him and your movement is too slow to get out of Darkness for a round or two. And even if you do, he can cast it at will to where you move, and just stay in darkness to keep total concealment, throwing up obscuring mist when needed. With Mage Armor AC goes up to 32 to go along with that 80 ft range on the breath weapon he is firing from concealment.
And he’s not even fighting in his preferred environment where he could use his swamp walk ability.
So yes, when you move a Forest Creature to an open field, it makes a difference.
Your 9th level Gnome Paladin is reported to have Weapon Focus (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Deadly Aim. 4 Feats
Now I note you do don’t have precise shot, so you are going to take a penalty whenever you fire into combat.
As said before: no character sheet at hand. The character definitely has precise shot, so possibly no WF.
Dragon Bane arrows would be 2000 for 50, so 10 would...
They would be 8000 for 50, since you need to have a +1 enhancement before adding special abilities. So 10 would be 1600 gp. This too has been stated before.
Any reason why you are not answering my questions Hyla?
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Your 9th level Gnome Paladin is reported to have Weapon Focus (Longbow), Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Deadly Aim. 4 Feats
Now I note you do don’t have precise shot, so you are going to take a penalty whenever you fire into combat.
As said before: no character sheet at hand. The character definitely has precise shot, so possibly no WF.
They would be 8000 for 50, since you need to have a +1 enhancement before adding special abilities. So 10 would be 1600 gp. This too has been stated before.
Dragon Bane arrows would be 2000 for 50, so 10 would...
And you skip the black dragon...
Forest creature in an open field is a fish out of water.
I'm serious, this situation is not normal for such a monster. He's not well prepared, not in its ambient, the paladin has the dragon bane weapon... it's not an animal, it's a dragon, play it as a dragon.
So I have only skimmed the messages, didn't want to read 285, so pardon me if this came up somewhere else before... but as with all archers, their greatest weakness is WIND WALL.
My current campaign has a paladin in it, and I like giving him some evil stuff to smite, just for the fun of it, but the BBEG also has mercenaries in his employ... lots of CN mercenaries. So even if the BBEG is evil, a lot of his guard who can easily get in the way are not. They are just greedy CN merc's.
The other fun thing to do with Paladins, is have them fight an anti-paladin, and they can smite each other :)
Anywho, that's what I recommend, throw in some wind walls (even if they are easily dispelled, still takes up other actions, and prevents the one turn KO). Get some CN mooks to fight him (I find a Kensai who has the magus arcana that can make an attack a Touch attack to work well).
And if it has to be an evil dragon, he would know the peril of fighting a Paladin all to well. I don't think you played it stupid. And hey, sometimes it's fun to let the players have a gory quick victory... for now ;)
He's not well prepared,
He was. He had the one useful buff he could cast by himself and even another buff cast by an ally.
So I have only skimmed the messages, didn't want to read 285, so pardon me if this came up somewhere else before... but as with all archers, their greatest weakness is WIND WALL.
Funny thing in the later stages of the combat the mentioned stone giant wizard wind walled the paladin in. The wall was dispelled the very next round.
He's not well prepared,He was. He had the one useful buff he could cast by himself and even another buff cast by an ally.
A dragon that has to kill a party don't attack them when they'r all armed and geared. The CR of the dragon depends also by the fact that he could snake you, or prepare some traps or ambush. If you want a face to face encounter, choose a dragon with an higher CR, but you should not give all the XP, because the dragon will be played more like a beast.
The dragon knows the party? Knows wich weapon or spell they use? Know where they live or sleep? They have a family? Etc. Those are the things that a dragon could ask himself if he has to kill someone.
1. Paladin being played without Smite Errata
Not true. We played WITH errata.
Without the errata the mean damage would have gone up from ~135 to ~160, so that would have made little difference anyway.
Also I am amazed at the amount of aggression I am drawing here: lazy DM, stupidly played etc. etc.
Its simply not the case that CR assume super-optimal conditions for the bad guys.
In my described case the conditions were even slightly disadvantegeous for the PCs since they were not buffed, but the bad guys were at the start of the combat.
If I take a look at my AP books or the many PF modules I own - I simply fail to see the elaborate tactics, preparation and environmental advantages you guys claim are absolutely necessary in order for the CR be valid.
So are this all stupid modules, written by lazy authors or what?
Or maybe your elaborations are misguided attempts at disguising the fact that yes, a CR 11 dragon ist just not a real challenge for a lvl 9 party including an archer paladin.
Why is it so hard to just admit that? It does not make PF a bad game or anything. Its just that my expectations were wrong, and next time I will send a CR 13 or 14 dragon.
If the dragon is along it will be an easier fight than a CR 11 dragon with backup. Really what it boils down to is your willingness to play hardball with the players. Being buffed does not matter that much if you aint willing to bring the pain. If you get the PC's on the ropes you can start to pull back, but once the PC's get you on the ropes it is really hard to do anything about it. I can guarantee that if you had cast all your buffs before teleporting in, and dropped right in front of the party, using my suggested tactics that fight would have been harder.
Now if the dragon were alone he would have a much harder time in the situation he was in.
You also can't discount the players advanatages. They knew the bad guys were coming, and had an open field with an archer who was all setup for the dragon. That makes a fight a lot easier.
PS:I am not suggesting you have to jump the PC's everytime, but don't fight to their advantage. Fighting on your terms is a big thing in this game. <---The PC's had this during your fight.
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PS:When you grapple someone they are moved into an adjacent square square so the caster won't be able to teleport him away because he won't be able to reach him. The dragon is huge and will have a 15 foot reach with his bite.
When you grapple you are grappled, no AoO for the dragon, so what block the caster from doing a few steps and casting free action/dimension door or other similar spells to free the paladin?
Actually I do get it. The problem is where are you teleporting too. 100 ft is not far enough by the way if those mirror images eat up enough attacks for the dragon to survive.
Again (because you obviously didn't get it):
He grapples you.
Either its the wizards turn (or cleric with some spells or whoever) or yours. If its yours you delay.
Its the Wizards turn (if it wasn't before). He teleports you 100 ft away.
Its your turn now: You full attack the dragon and will most likely kill him.
Mirror Image sorcerer/wizard 2 Range personal
Green dragon: Young adult: DR 5/magic, spell resistance: spellcasting 3rd
So we are always at the point of "free expendables" for the NPC?
This thread says the entire build matters
I can't believe I was about to stat out a 20 level pc when I can use a 10th level one to prove the same point.Here we have Two-Paw Pete
Smiting Team Evil: ~99.13 DPR - +1 to hit is ~7.93 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~29.74 more
Smiting a jerk: ~66.63 DPR - +1 to hit is ~5.33 more, +1 damage is 3.25 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~19.99 more
Not smiting at all: 31.40 DPR - +1 to hit is ~2.73 more, +1 damage is 2.99 more, an extra full-BAB attack is ~9.56 moreThen we have Pinpoint...
I'm not sure how to calculate potential damage based off hit accuracy but if you take a fighter with:
18 str
weapon training 2 doublesword
1 Exotic weapon doublesword
2 power attack
3 Weapon focus
4 weapon specialization
5 Two weapon fighting
6 double slice
7 improved two weapon fightinghe can put out (admittedly at max) 1d8+6(str+1/2)+9(pwratk w/2hands)+2(wpn spec) which is 21-22 damage a hit over 4 hits which is 88, with no magic gear.
I know it doesn't come out to as much as the paladin, but i compared a fighter with a doubleweapon to a fighter with a bow. Not a fighter with 2 one handers.
but I still don't see how there could be a difference. Rapid shot does +1 attack with -2 to hit, two weapon fighting does the same thing. Archers get many shot, but two weapon fighters get rend which adds damage without making a to hit roll similar to manyshot. Power...
Listen, if you are going to go EWP to TWF and especially if you are doing it to see how much damage you can put out, take Kukris.
Monsters have no usables or any other magic items other than those stated in their statblock.
If you are giving them usables you are increasing the CR of that monster and thus making it better. That much for the CR+2 not being down in one round.
Also you rely on heavy caster support (teleporting a HUGE dragon counts for 4 creatures, so you have to be a lvl 12 caster to teleport him with you) plus casting about 3-4 buff spells on him. While this is perfectly legal by CR means it still shows us that the CR+2 creature has no chance of surviving one round because it will need an CR 11 Caster with him so he can teleport (since he cannot use a teleport scroll per se).While I agree, allow me one nitpick: A young adult green is large, not huge.
It is huge.
Green DragonLE dragon (air)
Base Statistics
CR 4; Size Small; Hit Dice 5d12
Young adult
CR Base + 7
Size Base + 3
The base CR of the dragon is 4+7=11. That means a young adult is a CR 11 so you got that right.
The base size is small. If you go up one category size then it goes to medium. Two sizes equals a large. Three sizes would be huge.
I can imagine no possible scenario where this dragon (alone) could have presented any challenge whatsoever against the party.
That's the issue - the attack had no imagination. sorry but it didn't.
A party of PC's that powerful is going to have a reputation; use some of the hoard to pay thieves to steal a bow... what til there is some cover to attack from, play to you teams strengths not their weaknesses etc..
Seriously.. it isn't about the Paladin or the smite. (as everyone else is commenting).
Don't rush yourself with the next encounter, if it's a big bad then let the suspense build and think through the combat, location, time of day etc..
All this "This fight would've been done the right way had you stolen or sundered his bow beforehand!" is beyond absurd.
100% of Pathfinder adventures are written stupidly. I mean, in Rise of the Runelords alone in like 1 book we've fought two dragons outside their element. I mean, there shouldn't be any White Dragons outside the frozen tundra where they are on their own turf. And Red Dragons? Only in the middle of volcanoes.