Table-top Mortal Kombat, because that's exactly what Pathfinder is. Foolish me, I've been telling stories, creating plots, developing NPCs alongside the PCs...
And now we have to question why any GM would ever allow a PC a dragon cohort and then let him get the drop on someone as obviously important as a 20th level anything in an environment where his cohort can be present, and give the caster an 18th level cohort.
If the caster knows the duration on his own time stop so he can time delayed blast fireballs to trigger the instant it drops that's 4-16 DBFs metamagiced into a grab bag of elements, and because a level 18 cohort can also cast level 9 spells another 4-16 DBFs. Possibly the 20th level caster is a sorceror to max his charisma for leadership.
it's only a CR10 dragon. but i don't think a superstitious magic hating barbarian would want a mount that uses magic. or to use all the magic bling he does.
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BARBARIAN FLUFF AM GENERALLY THAT BARBARIAN RAISED BY MAN WITH CAPE AND AMAZING SUNGLASSES. AND NO SHIRT. AM NEVER NEED FOR SHIRT. THIS MAN AM TEACHING BARBARIAN HOW TO BE LANCE THAT AM PIERCE HEAVENS, AND HOW TO SMASH ANYTHING THAT AM MOVING. THANKS TO MAN WITH MIGHTYFINE CAPE AND AMAZING SUNGLASSES, BARBARIAN AM BECOME SUPERPOWERFUL.
THEN SOME GUY ON INTERNETS AM SAYING CASTYS AM NEVER LOSE. BARBARIAN HAVE NEW GOAL: SMASH MANY CASTYS.
AND BATTY BAT AM TOTALLY A BAT. HAS WINGS. FLIES. SEES INVISIBLE STUFF WITH... SENSES. IT AM BATTY BAT AS SURE AS BARBARIAN AM NOT BATTY BAT.
ALSO IT AM BREATHING HOT DEATH ON ENEMIES. BATTY BAT AM GOOD AT BEING BATTY BAT.
BARBARIAN FLUFF AM GENERALLY THAT BARBARIAN RAISED BY MAN WITH CAPE AND AMAZING SUNGLASSES. AND NO SHIRT. AM NEVER NEED FOR SHIRT. THIS MAN AM TEACHING BARBARIAN HOW TO BE LANCE THAT AM PIERCE HEAVENS, AND HOW TO SMASH ANYTHING THAT AM MOVING. THANKS TO MAN WITH MIGHTYFINE CAPE AND AMAZING SUNGLASSES, BARBARIAN AM BECOME SUPERPOWERFUL.
THEN SOME GUY ON INTERNETS AM SAYING CASTYS AM NEVER LOSE. BARBARIAN HAVE NEW GOAL: SMASH MANY CASTYS.
AND BATTY BAT AM TOTALLY A BAT. HAS WINGS. FLIES. SEES INVISIBLE STUFF WITH... SENSES. IT AM BATTY BAT AS SURE AS BARBARIAN AM NOT BATTY BAT.
ALSO IT AM BREATHING HOT DEATH ON ENEMIES. BATTY BAT AM GOOD AT BEING BATTY BAT.
I bet you just hate GM fiat.
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I bet you just hate GM fiat.
IT AM CASE OF GM HAVING TO NERF BARBARIAN SO CASTYS CAN KEEP UP.
AM ANNOYING, BUT BARBARIAN POINT AM PROVEN IF THAT AM CASE.
AM MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY!
BTW, doesn't the Epic Handbook allows for wands to be created for spells over level 4, I believe, but doesn't require Epic Ranks to do so?
And as an aside, yeah, he can just use a Staff of Greater Dispel Magic instead.
Also has rules for Dragon Cohorts in the Epic Handbook for monstrous levels of Leadership.
I personally think an Awakened Dire Bat with 12 levels of Barbarian would be a more appropriate cohort...
===Aelryinth
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Jason, I did not think AM BARBARIAN could get any more awesome.
Then you put him on a freaking dragon.
...I love you, man.
You could also go young umbral (CE), young cloud (CN), or young adult white or black (CE), but only the young adult brass is totally METAL!!! (rim shot) :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Jason, I did not think AM BARBARIAN could get any more awesome.
Then you put him on a freaking dragon.
...I love you, man.
Hey, wait, wait, wait.
CR 10 = a cohort level of 18? Where is this stated? I always thought if I wanted a cohort I could just go with CR= to 2 below the players.
Under the rules for monsters as cohorts, a dragon cohort has an equivalent level to its CR +8.
I think the barbarian needs a helmet. One he can take as a follower that offers AC and save bonuses.
Control Weather takes 10 minutes to cast as well.Fortunately, my Sorcerer didn't cast control weather.
Is there some reason to believe that the wizard is too dumb to move from the square in which the Barbarian last saw him?
As for finding the invisible mindblanked wizard, we're going with the wizard being spotted before he casts invisibility. Once he casts it the barbarian simply needs to locate his square.
Ah my apologies, i missed that one. That's a very handy spell indeed.
This posts about mounted cohorts comes after someone realized that you can't have an awakened animal as companion?
This idea is good. Maybe the 20 level wizard that you are trying to kill with your flying mount has taken leadership, too.
Mmmh... maybe a 18 level fighter? Better, a 18 level barbarian vs the 20 level barbarian. Maybe with an animal companion of his level :) If the wizard took the right item creation feats he can have double the usual amount of magic items in gold pieces. Maybe some buffs? :)
Why a wizard should cast invisibility and don't use a ring of invisibility instead? Then, he can also use improved invisibility.
When a rule ruins the game, change it. Rage cycling is excessive? Change. Mind blank too strong? Nerf. What's the problem? This is YOUR game. Then play without problems and enjoy :)
Pathfinder exists because rules are meant to be changed for everyone fun, otherwise we would play the first D&D.
You can powerplay with all rules. Someone could take item creations feats, working to obtain tons of gold, then doing for himself and having at level 20 ten times the value of magic items he should have. It's the GM that have to impede this use of rules. These are made to interact with a "realistic" world, not to make some strange pvp arena without context.
This tread helped me finding some bugs in the rules, but it's gone very far from the real game and its purpose. You should never be in a situation like described here in a game session. It's just boring and silly.
well. the situation is highly stacked against the caster. and AM BARBARIAN isn't technically a legal barbarian. he appearantly has every feat and rage power in the game. a mount that can bypass the greatest typical arcane defenses. one that even a cavalier, king of mounted combat cannot aquire.
Actually. The barbarian has very few feats. Most barbarian build take three feats :Power attack, raging vitality, and combat reflexes. That's it. They then take all those feats and take extra rage power. Hence a barbarian with 17-18 rage powers. Perfectly legal and the current barbarian strategy since rage powers are mostly better than feats.
As for the mount...of course, the cavalier (standard) is very limited in mount choice but the cavaliers mount gets better. AM BARBARIANS does not. If you want a cool mount as a cavalier take beast rider.
This posts about mounted cohorts comes after someone realized that you can't have an awakened animal as companion?
Nope. AM BARBARIANS mount is not an animal companion, special mount, or familiar (those are class features which barbarians don't get unless they choose the mounted fury archtype). He does have a plain old mount. Take any animal that can act as a mount, make it friendly with handle animal, cast awaken on it. TADA! It will do special tasks and endeavors for you. All you have to do is be it's buddy and ask it. You now have an awakened animal that if asked will function as your mount.
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Nope. AM BARBARIANS mount is not an animal companion, special mount, or familiar (those are class features which barbarians don't get unless they choose the mounted fury archtype). He does have a plain old mount. Take any animal that can act as a mount, make it friendly with handle animal, cast awaken on it. TADA! It will do special tasks and endeavors for you. All you have to do is be it's buddy and ask it. You now have an awakened animal that if asked will function as your mount.
Actually, since Jason pointed out that the Barbarian COULD be riding a dragon had he taken leadership, and since he has like five feat slots still open even after everything else, clearly he is. And has been all along, since this is a C-M D debate, and my god if castys can randomly decide they had something prepared all day always I can randomly decide my bat is a bloody dragon the whole time.
It makes sense, too. AM does't have any ranks in knowledge (nature) or (arcana), clearly he can't tell the difference. And for whatever reason, the Dragon thinks it's a hoot.
Unless it's a Bat with barbarian levels. Need to figure out which of the two is scarier. Then it's a bat with barbarian levels and that's just awesome.
State of flux, man. State of flux. Pity that dragons with barbarian levels aren't until level 21. T^T
This posts about mounted cohorts comes after someone realized that you can't have an awakened animal as companion?Nope. AM BARBARIANS mount is not an animal companion, special mount, or familiar (those are class features which barbarians don't get unless they choose the mounted fury archtype). He does have a plain old mount. Take any animal that can act as a mount, make it friendly with handle animal, cast awaken on it. TADA! It will do special tasks and endeavors for you. All you have to do is be it's buddy and ask it. You now have an awakened animal that if asked will function as your mount.
Indeed, was not AM the one that tryed to do this :)
By the way, an "old mount" will not last 1 round, awakened or not (if you want it to take levels, without leadership and class features you have to divide with it, so if you are at 20 level the wizard should have double your XP).Those last posts show why the more powerful PC or NPC in the game are those who have more followers. This is why usually you don't mess with kings, or similar.
Since the beginning of this tread, caster that posted here almost never used feats, but melee seems to have too much :P This maybe tells something. Are feats for caster less useful at high level? Dunno.
With normal rules, the situation remains the same. Wizard can't kill the barbarian (if he's not quite smart to have him use all rage), barbarian can't even spot the wizard.
None as yet convinced me that this is the right way to play.
Maybe, if you want, create a 20 level build with the same amount of money (obviously, create items cost half price) and after we'll see who' the better.
This will mean nothing, because I never play alone (and I hope you all have friends to play togheter), so in a team is not so useful making all saves against team spells. It is even possible that you absorb a spell from your allies instead of enemies, and you take half healing.
Huh? It seemed like the barbarian was winning. The Barbarian spots the wizard first most likely, the wizard however is a diviner so acts in the surprise round most likely first but can't see the barbarian and only has one move or standard action so until she finds the barbarian she can't use any target spells and has to guess where to aim her area of effect spells. I think that gives the barbarian a pretty good chance to have rage up.
No need to comment on sandwiches...but plenty have been scored, prepared, and eaten by the barbarian. Besides BAT is kinda chewy. Who eats bat when you can get wizards to wish you the best pastrami on rye at the point of your blade.
It always seems that people are just jumping to the conclusion that the fight is skewed towards the barbarian. Here is some debunking for you, based on the 20 something pages of posts.
Perception - Barbarian probably has a slight lead on this. Combat will start at your taking 10 perception score (if your perception bonus is +20 then you see the enemy at 300 ft.) Taking ten simplifies things and is a decent average. Who ever sees the other first has a surprise round.
Initiative - If you want to win initiative....make a claim for it. "I play a divination wizard and so go first. Suck it!" or "I'm a freaking wizard with Imp Init, reactionary, decent Dex. I probably go first." That's all you have to do. No one is claiming the barbarian has an uber init bonus.
Magic items - He is a lvl 20 character and the game is based on magic items. Get over it. You have the same amount of cash as he does. SPEND IT!
Buffs - Rage is not a buff...it is a class mechanic that is a free action. On his turn your damn right it gets turned on. You may start with any buffs that last 1 hr/lvl or greater. These buffs are commonly cast in the morning and last all day. You may also have permanent spells on you, as long as they are legal (very few spells are). As a wizard, you have time stop for all that short duration stuff.
Invisibility - He has a gem of seeing (part of that magic item stuff that every character should have at lvl 20). As far as MIND BLANK goes...awesome! Finally some one used the freaking spell! He can not see a wizard that is mind blanked and invisible. He has to use his dire bat (or whatever it is now) to locate you. It has blindsense 40 ft (Dragons have 60ft blindsense). If he gets within 40 ft of you he knows where you are and can thus spell sunder your invisibility / mindblank / whatever.
Time Stop - I think we have thoroughly debunked using time stop for calling monsters.
Gate - Thoroughly hashed out this one too. It will take you at minimum a move action to draw up the material components (If you won't take Justin's word for it, you just won't take anyone's). If you call more that you caster lvl in HD of creatures, you will need to negotiate. This will take 1 round (based off of planar ally spell which specifically says negotiating with called creature for services takes 1 rnd).
Eater of magic - Can not be used as previously described when using superstition. You may not voluntarily choose to not roll a save with superstition.
Rage cyclcing - Perfectly legal. There are ways to prevent this / take advantage of it.
Smasher - I know...not very anti-wizard but we did tangent off into a fighter v barbarian for a few posts. Smasher can only be used on UNATTENDED objects. NO smashering the fighters adamantine gear.
Barbarian Build - Has it been posted yet. NOPE. Is it breaking the rules. NOPE. Barbarians can get ridiculousness number of rage powers by substituting feats for them. Bring out the builds for both sides please.
Leadership - I would rather avoid using it. However, having a mount at lvl 20 without using leadership is a huge liability and I can understand wanting to use it. Please note, if the barbarian can take leadership to get a cohort than so can the wizard. Someone in the fight make this decision.
Did I miss anything?
MISSED PART WHERE BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.
WHAT? Barbarian has never spotted mage. Why this mage should come in line of blind sight of the barbarian? No, the line of sight of the bat, that then has to tell to barbarian. Now let's talk to wich creature has the wizard at his command. If barbarian use leadership, even mage can, if not you should add the mount XP to the mage XP.
Ring of invisibility + mind blank (24h) means perma invisibility. Now instead is mage that can't see barbarian?
Make the character sheet first, then we can talk about it. Decide an amount of money.
WHAT? Barbarian has never spotted mage. Why this mage should come in line of blind sight of the barbarian? No, the line of sight of the bat, that then has to tell to barbarian. Now let's talk to wich creature has the wizard at his command. If barbarian use leadership, even mage can, if not you should add the mount XP to the mage XP.
Ring of invisibility + mind blank (24h) means perma invisibility. Now instead is mage that can't see barbarian?Make the character sheet first, then we can talk about it. Decide an amount of money.
AM NOT SEEING BEATS-EVERYTHING WIZARD. BARBARIAN BUILD AM CURRENTLY JUST AS VALID.
WHAT? Barbarian has never spotted mage. Why this mage should come in line of blind sight of the barbarian? No, the line of sight of the bat, that then has to tell to barbarian. .....
Ring of invisibility + mind blank (24h) means perma invisibility. Now instead is mage that can't see barbarian?
Yep. AM BARBARIAN never countered with how to see an invis + mindblanked enemy at greater than 40 ft.
Ring of invis + mind blank = seudo perma invivibility. Must reactivate the ring every 3 min to keep up the invisibility. Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. So every three min you must spend a standard action to keep up the invisibility. Kind of repetitive and probably not something you would do all day long. It would also break the min you attacked something. Other than that...perfectly legal strategy. If this was going on...combat may not even start, lol. The best fights are the ones you don't even fight. EVERYONE WINS!
Character wealth will be standard 880,000 GP for lvl 20 characters. This is starting wealth, not GP and thus crafting feats will not change this (A belt crafted at 3000gp is still worth 6000gp in wealth).
I still don't see why you're not changing to a mounted fury, and polymorphing any object you horse into a dire-bat. Leadership doesn't need to enter into it, and you're only losing 5 DR and 6 resist fire.
I still don't see why you're not changing to a mounted fury, and polymorphing any object you horse into a dire-bat. Leadership doesn't need to enter into it, and you're only losing 5 DR and 6 resist fire.
All is in flux.
AM BARBARIAN is. Simply.
Seriously, that might be worth looking into.
I admit I haven't read every post but correct me if I am wrong but the original scenario was the barbarian sees a mage and decides to beat said mage to a pulp. Now if we are changing the scenario to the mage starting off invisible that does muddy the issue. We need some some build rules in place and the scenario in which this encounter is to occur before we can get anywhere. So can we set some mutually agreeable rules and then post some builds?
I still don't see why you're not changing to a mounted fury, and polymorphing any object you horse into a dire-bat. Leadership doesn't need to enter into it, and you're only losing 5 DR and 6 resist fire.
Because there are several reasons polymorphing a horse into a dire bat is a very stupid/cruel thing to do.
1. The Bat previously known as Horse will now have a body that digests meat, not the grass it's eaten it's entire life(before the change).
2. Walking for bats is very different for a horse.
3. A horse, even one polymorphed into a bat, does not know how to fly.
Maybe the horse was always a bat in a horses body to begin with?
I still don't see why you're not changing to a mounted fury, and polymorphing any object you horse into a dire-bat. Leadership doesn't need to enter into it, and you're only losing 5 DR and 6 resist fire.
Its a very valid build. You get a lvl appropriate mount. No leadership required. You polymorph it into a dire bat which is permanent. Your mount will fly and have blindsense, but have awesome hp, saves, etc. There are funny negatives involving dispels, anti-magic fields and falling however.
I still don't see why you're not changing to a mounted fury, and polymorphing any object you horse into a dire-bat. Leadership doesn't need to enter into it, and you're only losing 5 DR and 6 resist fire.20th-level Divination Specialist has a 30 + 7 (24dex) + II + trait + item(dagger of warning) = 47 initiative.
If we are going back to the beginning, the wizard has a d4+1 (2 rounds accounting for bad luck) rounds to buff using timestop. Cool? Plus, I am casting spells at the barbarian before his rage starts. Note: his will and reflex saves would stink for the first two spells.
I am not going to use the leadership feat.
No...the wizard may spend his first round casting time stop, in which he may do what ever he can legally do. AKA, you may spend your first action to time stop and buff but you can not effect another creature while in time stop. You can not use time stop to drop a bunch of save spells on the barbarian.
This all depends on perception scores, so it can vary ---- Since the barbarian probably sees you first and activates a surprise round, you will have a standard action before the barbarian and then the barbarian will have a standard action (which he will activate rage). You will have one standard action of non-raging barbarian. You probably can not see him as he would be out of your perception range so time stop would be a great starter.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming your wizards are CONSTANTLY invisible? How the frakk do they interact with the surrounding world?
The context of the fight was, "barbarian sees wizard, and decides it'll be metal to turn him into a sandwhich". Unless your wizard is invisible 24/7, that is a possible scenario, and changing the scenario afterwards is off-limits. When it's your turn, you can cast invisibility.
EDIT: Oh, and barbarians riding dragons is totally kick-ass.
BARBARIAN FLUFF AM GENERALLY THAT BARBARIAN RAISED BY MAN WITH CAPE AND AMAZING SUNGLASSES. AND NO SHIRT. AM NEVER NEED FOR SHIRT. THIS MAN AM TEACHING BARBARIAN HOW TO BE LANCE THAT AM PIERCE HEAVENS, AND HOW TO SMASH ANYTHING THAT AM MOVING. THANKS TO MAN WITH MIGHTYFINE CAPE AND AMAZING SUNGLASSES, BARBARIAN AM BECOME SUPERPOWERFUL.
Ah, I almost forgot. Link.
EDIT: Oh, and barbarians riding dragons is totally kick-ass.
I suggest that this creature be AM's new mount.
I also found a picture of AM as a kid when he got his ver first mount. Here it is.
Someone not me should really come up with rules similar to the DPR olympics and then everyone can make any caster or any non caster and then we can focus on which ones look the most promising to beat the other (caster vs. non caster.)
Someone not me should really come up with rules similar to the DPR olympics and then everyone can make any caster or any non caster and then we can focus on which ones look the most promising to beat the other (caster vs. non caster.)
Neither side of the debate would be satisfied with this.
Particularly the casters, because you can't abstract creative use of spells or something.
That said, AM BARBARIAN won about 16 pages ago, the new topic is if a dragon or a dragon bear is a better mount.
I wanna see the bear's CR first, though.
I wanna see the bear's CR first, though.
Half Dragon Grizzly: CR 6
Half Dragon Dire Bear: CR 9
I wanna see the bear's CR first, though.Half Dragon Grizzly: CR 6
Half Dragon Dire Bear: CR 9
Do either get blindsense/sight?
I don't know about a dragon bear, but a case could be made for PAO-ing a dragon horse.
Do either get blindsense/sight?I wanna see the bear's CR first, though.Half Dragon Grizzly: CR 6
Half Dragon Dire Bear: CR 9
No, only darkvision.
Pah. It appears the dragon still wins.
Pah. It appears the dragon still wins.
Make a Half-Bear template and apply it to a dragon.
If you go PAO, remember that BLIND SIGHT does not transfer. Only blindsense will transfer. Also...find a way to not get hosed by a dispel magic (Ring of spell turning would work...and hose the caster in return).