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That's not the point... the point is when doing these one on one comparisons which the game isn't about... one can always rig the fight to make it come out the way you want it to.Since none of us are taking this discussion seriously, what's the problem?
BARBARIAN AM TAKING DISCUSSION SUPER SERIOUSLY ALWAYS.
BARBARIAN ALSO POINT OUT AGAIN THAT SOMEONE STARTING SPELL SUNDER AM BROKEN AND NEEDS NERF.
AGAIN, BARBARIAN AM NOW NEEDING NERF SO CASTYS CAN KEEP UP.
MORE EVIDENCE OF BARBARIAN NOT-BARBARIAN DESTRUCITY.
It just takes barbarians out of the martial category and puts them in a third "zomg broken" category.
Right next to all the rule-breaking wizards. Seems fair to me.
Finally someone have anticaster weapon,was about time tbh. So what is probelm with that now?Spell sunder have no use against martials mostly.It has NO use at all against fighter for example and fighter is easily handling barbarian in fight.And on the other way,wizard is easily handling fighter.
Rock is obvious broken because it beats scissors, even though Rock is beaten by paper while scissors cut paper to shreds.
Blasphemy! It sounds like you are saying that the classes were made to work together to cover each other's weaknesses!
also kindly note that the truename discovery is limited by the level you take it at. I believe you'd get 1 planetar at most, but I'd have to check. I think 15 HD was the limit? Not sure.
And unless you're a really sweet and noble guy not abusing his truename, the planetar's first action will likely be 'delay long enough to get this stupid mortal who is exploiting a vulnerability of mine killed by the barbarian, make every attempt to see he's not returned to life, give the barbarian a sandwhich in thanks, and go home.'
==Aelryinth
Blasphemy! It sounds like you are saying that the classes were made to work together to cover each other's weaknesses!Well, it was supposed to work that way, it just didn't pan out.
Also, in response to the whole, 'barbarian is immune to magic' thing.
-Greater Invisibility
-Enervation
-Dimension Door/Blink/TeleportWizard wins.
It's been established that the barbarian has that pendant that absorbs negative levels and grants sr. and a 28 touch ac without including dexterity. And a dire bat/gem of true seeing combo.
Honestly, the tornado is the best answer, and even that only killed the bat.
the DC to dispel an unattended spell is 15+caster level
the DC to dispel a buff on an individual is 5+CMD.
and you have to beat the DC by 10 to actually dispel it rather than just suppress it for so many rounds.
so you need +15 more worth of external static bonuses to get the same benefit a wizard does for an unnatended spell.
before you complain about your caster having crappy CMD, let me point you to defensive manuever training. which cancels out the BAB advantages. and you still get Str+Dex+5+any bonuses that effect touch AC such as rings of protection, dodge, etc. against the barbarian who gets merely his strength, the bonus of his weapon, and any feats he spent on his sunder bonus. oh, this is just to suppress the spell temporarily, if the barbarian wishes to dispel it, the caster gets a free +10 on thier side.
the DC to dispel an unattended spell is 15+caster level
the DC to dispel a buff on an individual is 5+CMD.
and you have to beat the DC by 10 to actually dispel it rather than just suppress it for so many rounds.
so you need +15 more worth of external static bonuses to get the same benefit a wizard does for an unnatended spell.
before you complain about your caster having crappy CMD, let me point you to defensive manuever training. which cancels out the BAB advantages. and you still get Str+Dex+5+any bonuses that effect touch AC such as rings of protection, dodge, etc. against the barbarian who gets merely his strength, the bonus of his weapon, and any feats he spent on his sunder bonus. oh, this is just to suppress the spell temporarily, if the barbarian wishes to dispel it, the caster gets a free +10 on thier side.
You forgot strength surge. Barbarians get +70 sunder pretty easily.
You forgot strength surge. Barbarians get +70 sunder pretty easily.the DC to dispel an unattended spell is 15+caster level
the DC to dispel a buff on an individual is 5+CMD.
and you have to beat the DC by 10 to actually dispel it rather than just suppress it for so many rounds.
so you need +15 more worth of external static bonuses to get the same benefit a wizard does for an unnatended spell.
before you complain about your caster having crappy CMD, let me point you to defensive manuever training. which cancels out the BAB advantages. and you still get Str+Dex+5+any bonuses that effect touch AC such as rings of protection, dodge, etc. against the barbarian who gets merely his strength, the bonus of his weapon, and any feats he spent on his sunder bonus. oh, this is just to suppress the spell temporarily, if the barbarian wishes to dispel it, the caster gets a free +10 on thier side.
i was attempting to defend barbarians by showing that the casters can augment thier CMD as well. and get a free +15 on top of thier normal bonuses. i know strength surge bypasses it. but i am trying to make sure that spell sunder doesn't get nerfed.
i don't know if a caster can counter strength surge, but i'm sure they can force it's use.
even if i don't maximize strength, i try not to dump it unless i have a specific concept that demands it. even as a wizard, if i can. i learned from the mistakes of playing 3 TWF rogues in one year.
Second Round:
-Use Wand of Greater Dispel Magic
You lost me. What are we dispelling?
You lost me. What are we dispelling?
Second Round:
-Use Wand of Greater Dispel Magic
The pendant that absorbs negative levels.
The pendant that absorbs negative levels.You lost me. What are we dispelling?
Second Round:
-Use Wand of Greater Dispel Magic
Ahh. That makes sense.
Counterpoint. Round 1, gem of true seeing or dire bat. Round 2, charge.
I think you need an extra round.
And where did you get a level 6 spell wand?
And on the topic of that pendant, I'd love to read it. What book is it in?
Core.
Control Weather takes 10 minutes to cast as well. Though maybe there is a faster version, i'm not entirely familiar with all the spells so perhaps the tornado was coming from something else.
All that AM BARBARIAN/Trinam is showing is that a barbarian who gets the jump on a wizard could probably one shot him. If the wizard is plotting against AM BARBARIAN then it's an entirely different story.
The barbarian has spent money to protect himself against magic, it makes sense that he's paranoid when it comes to magic users.
As for finding the invisible mindblanked wizard, we're going with the wizard being spotted before he casts invisibility. Once he casts it the barbarian simply needs to locate his square. Note that the Barbarian gets a -20 to his perception DC to find a wizard when they are casting while invisible unless it is being done silently.
Once the barbarian finds the square that the wizard is in, he has the option to use spell sunder on the invisibility with no miss chance. That's why the mindblank isn't such a huge concern.
Really this is a nice class build that shows while a wizard can be a GOD he can still bleed and that's something the game needs more of. When this character is a part of a party (i know, a scary concept) it can actually help the spell casters by helping to nullify effects on the enemy casters. Spell sundering the spell turning items or perhaps enchantment effects that are preventing the party from being effective is where this character could be a huge asset, never mind his effectiveness against melee combatants.
I hope to see is more abilities like this for other martial classes, similar to the style line of feats brought out in ultimate combat.
Honestly, the tornado is the best answer, and even that only killed the bat.Not exactly. It killed the bat and gave the sorcerer the ability to wait out the Barbarian's rage.
And it only took 20 pages to even get that far.
Were I truly evil I'd move goalposts again by saying the bat was totally a cohort with barbarian levels of its own.
But I won't, because even though barbarian has hurler, that doesn't mean its ever worth the action.
Magic :)And where did you get a level 6 spell wand?
Psst: you mean a Staff with only Dispel Magic on it? Staffs can go higher lv, wands can't (and no minimum number of spells).
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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And on the topic of that pendant, I'd love to read it. What book is it in?
By pendant, I assume he means the scarab of protection, which absorbs 12 energy-draining attacks, death effects, and negative energy effects. Note that it is 12 effects, not 12 negative levels (which I believe is the way it worked in 3.5), so it could absorb 12 separate castings of enervation, energy drain, harm, destruction, power word kill, or whatever.
Some random musings on other questions in the thread:
1. The bat's spell turning is from a ring.
2. The "elaborate components" exception to free action component drawing is RAW, not a house rule. However, the rules don't specify exactly what qualifies as elaborate. Gate is clearly not a "ritual spell" in the same way that planar binding is, as its casting time is a standard action, not 10 minutes like PB. However, its material component is equally clearly more "elaborate" than a pinch of bat guano or a handful of acorns or a rotten egg).
It's reasonable to interpret the "elaborate" rule to mean that any spell that has more than one material component could be called "elaborate" - see statue, hallucinatory terrain, or identify for examples. Something like stoneskin is tricky to interpret by this standard - it requires two types of dust (granite and diamond); it's two things, but two of the same kind of things.
Gate, on the other hand, requires at least two things, which are of different kinds. A substantial quantity of incense (10,000 gp buys a LOT of incense) and offerings of some type not specified, but obviously something other than incense or else listing them separately would be superfluous.
IOW, it's not absolutely clear in the RAW that gate must be considered to have "elaborate" material components, but it obviously may and probably even should.
Note that this does not increase the casting time of the spell. Actually CASTING it still only takes a standard action. It just stipulates that getting the components out is not a free action. So what kind of action should it take? It could be two move actions (once for the incense, one for the offerings), or one move action (if you let the caster 'free draw' one component and have to move action out the other), or it could be one move action for each offering and each unit of incense, once the GM decides exactly how much incense we are talking about (the 10K is for incense AND offerings and doesn't stipulate how you have to divide it up).
3. To the sor/wiz asking how the barbarian will spot him at 600 feet, the same applies in reverse. Logical or not, spot DC is 0, +1 for every 10 feet. The barbarian is likely to spot the wizard first, assuming a random encounter (amusing thought), where you have your long-term buffs going but don't have any particular reason to know danger awaits, so the wizard can't presume to be invisible (much less greater) at the start of combat, unless he's using a ring and reactivating it every 3 minutes.
Yes, the wizard could have foresight, but only for about 3 hours/casting. If you had a greater MM rod (extend) and spent all of your 9th level slots on foresight and nothing else (i.e., no time stop, gate, prismatic sphere, etc.), you could have pretty close to 24-hour coverage.
TL;DR = sighting is likely to be simultaneous, or slight advantage barbarian (bigger advantage if he has taken 1 level of lame oracle of the winds (wind sight, ignore first 100'))
4. Custom item of +10 competence bonus to Ride skill. Yes, you are correct. This is technically a custom magic item, but probably only because the Paizo devs
a. Were already pressed for page count in the Core rulebook
b. Made a very simple algorithm for skill-boosting magic items, unchanged from 3.5
c. Figured they had put plenty of +X skill items into the Core Rulebook, all priced on an X^2 x 100 gp basis, that no one could possibly have any confusion about how one could/should make one
d. Assumed that skill-boosting items are all pretty much the same anyway, so why bother making one specific, explicit one for every skill
BTW and FWIW, a saddle of horsemanship (+5 or +10 to ride) was one of the prize items in the jousting tournament in my manuscript turnover for War of the River Kings.
So, yes, technically a +10 Ride skill item is not specifically prewritten into the rules, but referring to it as a "custom magic item" in this context carries the implication that is is cheesy, like an amulet of +1 luck +1 sacred +1 insight +1 blah blah blah.
5. Yes, Batty Bat is pretty fragile. I would certainly consider taking the Ferocious Mount and Greater Ferocious Mount rage powers. It will eat up your rage rounds faster, but may be worth it.
The better mount for AM BARBARIAN would be, assuming he's 20th level, a young adult brass dragon (CR 10, = 18th level cohort, so your max unless you have some kind of cheat on max cohort level). It's big enough to carry you, has a ludicrous fly speed (200 feet, who cares if it's poor maneuverability), has SR to ignore a lot of wand/scroll spell tricks that casters might try to use on you, is CHAOTIC AWESOME in alignment, sees twice as well as a human (so Perception penalties are only +1 per 20 feet - much better for those long rage spots), 60-foot blindsense, and did I mention he's CHAOTIC AWESOME??? :)
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well. the situation is highly stacked against the caster. and AM BARBARIAN isn't technically a legal barbarian. he appearantly has every feat and rage power in the game. a mount that can bypass the greatest typical arcane defenses. one that even a cavalier, king of mounted combat cannot aquire.
i have an idea.
why don't we use the guidelines found in the DPR olympics? it should remove most of these shenanigans fairly well.
dire bat will be priced as if it were a hippogriff.
Jason, I did not think AM BARBARIAN could get any more awesome.
Then you put him on a freaking dragon.
...I love you, man.
well. the situation is highly stacked against the caster. and AM BARBARIAN isn't technically a legal barbarian. he appearantly has every feat and rage power in the game. a mount that can bypass the greatest typical arcane defenses. one that even a cavalier, king of mounted combat cannot aquire.
i have an idea.
why don't we use the guidelines found in the DPR olympics? it should remove most of these shenanigans fairly well.
dire bat will be priced as if it were a hippogriff.
Like I said before: I'll post an exact build for AM BARBARIAN when someone posts one of those beats everything always wizard builds.
And BATTY BAT is now a dragon. Officially.
somebody needs to post builds for these 'casters' so that i can see AM BARBARIAN's build. will somebody post a caster? i want to see those casters.
i don't count because i did stuff you could do with pure fiat and abuse of a racial spell like ability.
To be fair, I held off on posting the sorcerer because I was having too much fun watching AM BARBARIAN go to town. The fact that it was 20 pages later was testament only to how much fun I was having watching the slaughter.Honestly, the tornado is the best answer, and even that only killed the bat.Not exactly. It killed the bat and gave the sorcerer the ability to wait out the Barbarian's rage.And it only took 20 pages to even get that far.
Speak for yourself. Sandwhich mage won a long time ago.
Speak for yourself. Sandwhich mage won a long time ago.To be fair, I held off on posting the sorcerer because I was having too much fun watching AM BARBARIAN go to town. The fact that it was 20 pages later was testament only to how much fun I was having watching the slaughter.Honestly, the tornado is the best answer, and even that only killed the bat.Not exactly. It killed the bat and gave the sorcerer the ability to wait out the Barbarian's rage.And it only took 20 pages to even get that far.
Fetchling Sandwhich Bard only won through fiat and manipulation of her family tree. she personally only used a racial spell like ability to cast plane shift. why else was shadow the plane of choice? her overpowered homebrew incorporeal outsider grandpa pulled the weight. it wasn't a true victory.
He is quite amazing. Prior to this thread I could count the number if debates I'd won typing in all caps with horrible grammar on one hand.
But I digress. It would be significantly harder to tornado a dragon than a bat.
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well. the situation is highly stacked against the caster. and AM BARBARIAN isn't technically a legal barbarian. he appearantly has every feat and rage power in the game. a mount that can bypass the greatest typical arcane defenses. one that even a cavalier, king of mounted combat cannot aquire.
i have an idea.
why don't we use the guidelines found in the DPR olympics? it should remove most of these shenanigans fairly well.
dire bat will be priced as if it were a hippogriff.
Like I said before: I'll post an exact build for AM BARBARIAN when someone posts one of those beats everything always wizard builds.
And BATTY BAT is now a dragon. Officially.
So much this...
Fetchling Sandwhich Bard only won through fiat and manipulation of her family tree. she personally only used a racial spell like ability to cast plane shift. why else was shadow the plane of choice? her overpowered homebrew incorporeal outsider grandpa pulled the weight. it wasn't a true victory.Speak for yourself. Sandwhich mage won a long time ago.To be fair, I held off on posting the sorcerer because I was having too much fun watching AM BARBARIAN go to town. The fact that it was 20 pages later was testament only to how much fun I was having watching the slaughter.Honestly, the tornado is the best answer, and even that only killed the bat.Not exactly. It killed the bat and gave the sorcerer the ability to wait out the Barbarian's rage.And it only took 20 pages to even get that far.
Awwww is widdle baby upset she can't make AM BARBARIAN an elemental plane of salami on rye? Maybe my ham and cheese made with over +50 craft score will cheer you up? What's wrong is my sandwhichery too much for you? Can you not take it when I'm hamming it up? Eh? Eh?
While I would love to see a pimped out lvl 20 sorcerer, it is not a beats everything wizard and as such I would still be under no compunction to release AM BARBARIAN'S secret blend of herbs and spices.
Awwww is widdle baby upset she can't make AM BARBARIAN an elemental plane of salami on rye? Maybe my ham and cheese made with over +50 craft score will cheer you up? What's wrong is my sandwhichery too much for you? Can you not take it when I'm hamming it up? Eh? Eh?Fetchling Sandwhich Bard only won through fiat and manipulation of her family tree. she personally only used a racial spell like ability to cast plane shift. why else was shadow the plane of choice? her overpowered homebrew incorporeal outsider grandpa pulled the weight. it wasn't a true victory.Speak for yourself. Sandwhich mage won a long time ago.To be fair, I held off on posting the sorcerer because I was having too much fun watching AM BARBARIAN go to town. The fact that it was 20 pages later was testament only to how much fun I was having watching the slaughter.Honestly, the tornado is the best answer, and even that only killed the bat.Not exactly. It killed the bat and gave the sorcerer the ability to wait out the Barbarian's rage.And it only took 20 pages to even get that far.
i'm merely a bard *coughs up a lot of blood* Uncle Max is the real family arcanist. Grandpa Krskt has some racial sorcerer spells, but i don't think any of them could make an entire demiplane of Salami on rye. and i personally only have 53 hit points, my constitution is only a lowly 7, *coughs up more blood* my intellegence score alone should prove more than sufficient for crafting a few sandwhiches. *coughs up some more* *casts predestigitation to clean herself up, drinks some medicinal tea, pops a few prescriptions, and starts crafting quite a lot of Salami on rye sandwhiches out of frustration* the tea is to help swallow my pills, i am not a Geisha.
[serious]
Without reading oh, say, a thousand posts, there's something I'd like to ask:
Why is a wizard with twenty levels of experience and a Wisdom score of seven or more is facing down a barbarian (specializing is mage extermination) riding a giant bat-dragon in single combat? Have so many players running wizards ruined that many games? Also, why is a superstitious barbarian wearing so much magic gear?
[/serious]
BECAUSE THAT AM HOW BARBARIAN ROLL.
[serious]
Without reading oh, say, a thousand posts, there's something I'd like to ask:Why is a wizard with twenty levels of experience and a Wisdom score of seven or more is facing down a barbarian (specializing is mage extermination) riding a giant bat-dragon in single combat? Have so many players running wizards ruined that many games? Also, why is a superstitious barbarian wearing so much magic gear?
[/serious]
It is a caster martial disparity debate. You expect it to make sense?
It is a caster martial disparity debate. You expect it to make sense?[serious]
Without reading oh, say, a thousand posts, there's something I'd like to ask:Why is a wizard with twenty levels of experience and a Wisdom score of seven or more is facing down a barbarian (specializing is mage extermination) riding a giant bat-dragon in single combat? Have so many players running wizards ruined that many games? Also, why is a superstitious barbarian wearing so much magic gear?
[/serious]
I had hopes, but should've known better. Now all I can do is throw logic around and hope it sticks.