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From either a real-world OR fantasy logic standpoint, wizards are better than you.
To be fair, the whole POINT of the Wuxia genre is to showcase that weapon-users can become versatile too, with proper supernatural martial art training alone. Starting a landslide with a sword swing at the nearby scenery, language-free telepathy, extended lifespan and youth, and eventually ascension to divinity (albeit the lowest in the celestial bureaucracy), all common elements that show up regularly (especially for the protagonists and BBEGs, though). As I grew up with the genre, I always find it absolutely weird to see warriors being underdogs to spellcasters in western fantasy tropes...
If there is Reality + Magic, I find it perfectly FAIR to have Reality + SMA and Reality + Super-Skills stuff rolling around (like running on water surface with Athletics/Acrobatics DC 35).
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From either a real-world OR fantasy logic standpoint, wizards are better than you.To be fair, the whole POINT of the Wuxia genre is to showcase that weapon-users can become versatile too, with proper supernatural martial art training alone. Starting a landslide with a sword swing at the nearby scenery, language-free telepathy, extended lifespan and youth, and eventually ascension to divinity (albeit the lowest in the celestial bureaucracy), all common elements that show up regularly (especially for the protagonists and BBEGs, though). As I grew up with the genre, I always find it absolutely weird to see warriors being underdogs to spellcasters in western fantasy tropes...
If there is Reality + Magic, I find it perfectly FAIR to have Reality + SMA and Reality + Super-Skills stuff rolling around (like running on water surface with Athletics/Acrobatics DC 35).
There is a reason I like Path of War, and I think this nails it on the head pretty well.
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Play E7, problem solved.
Or
Use Path of War as AirOr suggests. Really, this supplement is amazing and nearly standard issue when I play Pathfinder games.
Why do ppl necro five year old threads? I think it is safe to say you can create a new topic at this point.Why do people spam threads that had a long period of time pass between posts with comments proclaiming "thread necromancy!" without bothering to respond to the actual topic of the thread?
Besides, if someone started a new thread on the same topic, you'd be whining about "thread bloat" and how people should "just use the search feature instead of starting a duplicate thread."
Because it is funny. Because usually it was an unintentional thread revive because of searching a topic and not realizing a date.
Also, because it is important to alert new posters that the majority of comments are now dated, and could be completely invalid due to new content releases or new strategies or mechanics synergies discovered since then.
Heck, even the opinions of these people who posted 5 years ago could be radically different, to the point of a total 180. Only to get slammed for this old opinion thats had 5 years to change by new posters.
There is usually a shelf life for a thread, where its expected to just make a new one. New books coming out are a pretty good marking point, unless it was recent enough to just add the thoughts to it.
5 years should be obviously over that limit. One could have had a child that is now going into school in that time. Lots can change.
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I have been noticing that newer releases generally have weaker stuff than the Core book. Some really flavorful options, but mechanically weaker. As far as PF goes, I don't believe that power creep has ever been a thing. The core book has all the most broken stuff right there (Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid).
Take Occult classes for example: generally weaker than core classes. Some flavorful stuff (Kineticist, Occultist), but on a lower power scale. Ultimate Intrigue was just full of sadness if you're looking for powerful options. Let's see if Horror Adventures has anything good in it, I don't have it in my hand yet.
Why do ppl necro five year old threads? I think it is safe to say you can create a new topic at this point.Why do people spam threads that had a long period of time pass between posts with comments proclaiming "thread necromancy!" without bothering to respond to the actual topic of the thread?
Besides, if someone started a new thread on the same topic, you'd be whining about "thread bloat" and how people should "just use the search feature instead of starting a duplicate thread."
There's no need to necro old threads were the information and questions posed are several years in the past. New information and answers usually invalidates whatever the original topic was about.
I'm fairly certain I've never told someone to use the search thread instead of starting a duplicate threads.
I have been noticing that newer releases generally have weaker stuff than the Core book. Some really flavorful options, but mechanically weaker. As far as PF goes, I don't believe that power creep has ever been a thing. The core book has all the most broken stuff right there (Sorcerer, Wizard, Cleric, Druid).
Take Occult classes for example: generally weaker than core classes. Some flavorful stuff (Kineticist, Occultist), but on a lower power scale. Ultimate Intrigue was just full of sadness if you're looking for powerful options. Let's see if Horror Adventures has anything good in it, I don't have it in my hand yet.
This isn't actually new for paizo releases. It just becomes more apparent the more options there are.
There has ALWAYS been a curve with LOTS of sub part options, a hand full right around or right bellow average, a few above average options and A couple that were 'too strong'.
The difference is now we have many many concepts covered with 'above average' or 'too strong' options. So any new material that fits a similar vein is far more likely to have a 'better' past equivalent or close correlation.
And for the most part its probably a good thing that new options are generally not more powerful then the cleric/wizard/druid. That's a pretty high bar. I think the target is probably closer to somewhere between the core paladin and the core sorcerer. Put them in there somewhere and you have a workable option. And while that might seem 'weak' compared to a wildshaping druid with a pouncing dinosaur buddy, I think we can all agree that setting our target a little lower then that is ok, for the health of the game as a whole.
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Horror adventures did continue the trend, though not to the same extent as Ultimate Intrigue.
Just want to say that I normally not like necro threats, but in that particular case, it was interesting compare opinions from some years ago with the actual situation.
Horror is more a GM/NPC book. The player section has fewer pages that others books, and even on that part, near half the options are so blatantly evil that few characters will take it. For example, I have loved Gingerbread Witch, wich have some wicked powers that can also be used for good...until you arrive to the level 12 power; swallow whole humanoids. Too evil for 95% of player characters.
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Just want to say that I normally not like necro threats, but in that particular case, it was interesting compare opinions from some years ago with the actual situation.
Horror is more a GM/NPC book. The player section has fewer pages that others books, and even on that part, near half the options are so blatantly evil that few characters will take it. For example, I have loved Gingerbread Witch, wich have some wicked powers that can also be used for good...until you arrive to the level 12 power; swallow whole humanoids. Too evil for 95% of player characters.
Tangent, but the Gruesome Gobbler works on everything, not just humanoids. And it doesn't actually deal damage to them while they're in there so it's not even evil.
Or would you say that Gobbling a humanoid serial rapist/killer [or both in the same person] and digesting them is evil?
Yes
Cannibalism is evil, who was eaten is irrelevant.
Or would you say that Gobbling a humanoid serial rapist/killer [or both in the same person] and digesting them is evil?Yes
Cannibalism is evil, who was eaten is irrelevant.
Yup. Here we run into 3.Ps weird absolute morality like in the case of EVIL spells.
Its weird.
There's no "and digesting them", though. Since it has no damage, it's more or less just a creepy super-grapple. Heck, you could use it to hide your gingerbread familiar.
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Wait, don't they also get Cook People? I think folks are just looking at the wrong ability...
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I was about to write up a snarky comparison post, but then I remembered that this is not the right thread for a discussion on Pathfinder's weirdly inconsistent moral principles.
If you want to continue this discussion, you should probably create a new thread for it. Otherwise Chris or Liz might get involved (and I won't get to enjoy reading an alignment thread).
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Contributor
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Note that "cannibalism in PF is evil" is not universally held to be true.
You may now return to your previous derail about thread response time. ^_^
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Yeah, sorry for the derail and the errors on the Gengerbread witch. I assumed it would be lethal or near... it is not.
I think Pathfinder is stable on the power of the material over the years, what is good. What is not so good is that 3/4 feats and too many archetypes have so interesting fluff, and so bad mechanical side that made them so bad.
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Reverse creep isn't really possible. If every option in a splatbook is universally trumped by abilities in the existing material, then power levels have stayed exactly the same.
Soon as a single ability in a splatbook allows you to do something you could not do in the existing material, and is balanced, then you've increased character versatility, and the power level potential has increased (just a bit).
Generally speaking, a splatbook induces power creep, it's pretty much inevitable if you are providing mechanical options. The question isn't as much "if" it produces power creep, the question is "how much?"
That said, if splatbooks have interesting options that improve a player's ability to make unique characters, and make the game more fun, then a bit of power creep is a small price to pay right?
It's interesting how this philosophy has been proven incorrect over time as Paizo starts actually nerfing things or creating feats that limit stuff that was assumed to be part of a skill.
Turns out it is possible, it just has to be a lot more explicit than "this feat is a bad one".
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Reverse creep isn't really possible. If every option in a splatbook is universally trumped by abilities in the existing material, then power levels have stayed exactly the same.
Soon as a single ability in a splatbook allows you to do something you could not do in the existing material, and is balanced, then you've increased character versatility, and the power level potential has increased (just a bit).
Generally speaking, a splatbook induces power creep, it's pretty much inevitable if you are providing mechanical options. The question isn't as much "if" it produces power creep, the question is "how much?"
That said, if splatbooks have interesting options that improve a player's ability to make unique characters, and make the game more fun, then a bit of power creep is a small price to pay right?
It's interesting how this philosophy has been proven incorrect over time as Paizo starts actually nerfing things or creating feats that limit stuff that was assumed to be part of a skill.
Turns out it is possible, it just has to be a lot more explicit than "this feat is a bad one".
Or just full out rewriting certain archetypes *cough*scarredwitchdoctor*cough* to make them less appealing when their new class has a core mechanic that is an arguably worse version of their shtick.