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You can force a stalemate with a reach weapon. Move to 5 ft away and attack. Blocked by Crane. AoO not possible due to fighter being out of range. Crane rival then has two options: Move away, not attacking at all, or take a 5 ft step in to attack, and take a Lucerne Hammer to the face next round. If the crane rival is a Fighter instead of a monk, an enlarge person spell tips it in the favor of the polearm user, as the increased range of attacks makes it difficult to escape without being within a 5 ft step.
As for bowstrings being nonmagical, by that reasoning, I should be able to sunder a monk's arm or leg. It is a weapon, after all.
Is there any chance that you could post a few snapshots of this character at lower levels? I kind of really want to steal this for somethingI'm lazy, so here's a crane character I built prior to this discussion. It's not a spring attacker, but that's as easy as giving up critical focus for spring attack.
A really intriguing character build
I'm not really up for it, but you (or someone else) are more than welcome to dissect the character and reduce it's level.
You can force a stalemate with a reach weapon. Move to 5 ft away and attack. Blocked by Crane. AoO not possible due to fighter being out of range. Crane rival then has two options: Move away, not attacking at all, or take a 5 ft step in to attack, and take a Lucerne Hammer to the face next round. If the crane rival is a Fighter instead of a monk, an enlarge person spell tips it in the favor of the polearm user, as the increased range of attacks makes it difficult to escape without being within a 5 ft step.
As for bowstrings being nonmagical, by that reasoning, I should be able to sunder a monk's arm or leg. It is a weapon, after all.
Find me the rules for enchanting a locking guantlet. They don't specifically exist either.
But you can only sunder objects, and arms or legs are part of creatures, and you can't sunder a creature.
You can fight defensively while SPring Attacking, as pointed out above.
The arguments about ignoring the Monk don't work if the Crane is a fighter...nor if its one of the new Monks, who can really lay a smack down.
Reach does nothing but provoke an AoO...maybe. If spring attacking, there is no AoO. If not Spring Attacking, the best you can do is avoid the return AoO from the Crane as he parries, in which case he's still ahead 2:1. And if you're using a Reach Weapon, he doesn't even have to move away...YOU DO, or you can't attack him! Which means now YOU have to make the acrobatics check, or suffer an additional AoO!
And, of course, his readied action could be "Move up to my opponent and attack when he withdraws to attack me."
So THAT tactic doesn't work.
=======
Keep in mind I'm not at all worried about this being used in the hands of enemies. Enemies are pretty standardized, and the party will take them out.
I'm more worried about it being used in the hands of PC's to make them basically invulnerable to the big bad melee machine. basically, for -1 to hit, the PC gets a +4 AC bonus, cancels out the BBEG's best attack (and maybe only attack), AND gets a free attack of their own.
That's an INCREDIBLY good feat. You'd have to be slightly insane not to want to take this feat chain, even if you don't Spring Attack. Here comes the Dragon's 12-96+40 dmg Bite attack...Parried! And I get an AoO! woot!
You don't have to use it at all like I pointed out, which is more a point of melee invulnerability then anything.
Just think of a THW guy doing this.
One big smack. -1 to hit. His enemy's best return attack misses, the secondary attacks are at an extra -4 to hit, and your big guy now gets an AoO to boot!
===Aelryinth
I love the Crane Style and Flowing monk or Tetori Archtypes, they make my pacifistic monk much more viable (and really annoying to the baddies)
Which plays out very much like crane style IRL and therefor Exalted. My Exalted MA lover read it and went, "Hey! I've played this before!" It made her quite excited.
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That's an INCREDIBLY good feat. You'd have to be slightly insane not to want to take this feat chain, even if you don't Spring Attack. Here comes the Dragon's 12-96+40 dmg Bite attack...Parried! And I get an AoO! woot!You don't have to use it at all like I pointed out, which is more a point of melee invulnerability then anything.
Just think of a THW guy doing this.
One big smack. -1 to hit. His enemy's best return attack misses, the secondary attacks are at an extra -4 to hit, and your big guy now gets an AoO to boot!
But it's not a feat -- it's five feats (though the unarmed fighter and monk can get it in 3~4). Also you aren't going to use it with THW -- you must have an empty hand to use crane style... which you don't have with a two handed weapon.
Now a humanoid BBEG that's a melee monster might have trouble hitting the monk -- but the dragon isn't... neither is the pit fiend... or anyone else with several natural attacks. Also if he really is a BBEG and a 'melee monster' he's probably going to be a pouncing barbarian or a mobility fighter. This is of course if he doesn't have any of the several other techniques mentioned (such as grappling, step up and strike, etc) that he can use to break this.
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Additionally at the level at which your theory craft build is doable the humanoid BBEG melee monster would be 3-ish levels higher then the players, making him level 12-ish.
What does this mean? If your BBEG melee monster does not have a SINGLE magical trick up his sleeve and is level 12 you are doing something SERIOUSLY wrong there. Even the best most hardcore honorable warriors have some species of trick they can pull out to deal with something they cannot normally deal with, they are the BIG BAD EVIL GUY after all, those dudes make plans with plans within cookies. Tasty cookies made out the bones of the heroes who came before and FAILED.
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The arguments about ignoring the Monk don't work if the Crane is a fighter...nor if its one of the new Monks, who can really lay a smack down.=======
Keep in mind I'm not at all worried about this being used in the hands of enemies. Enemies are pretty standardized, and the party will take them out.I'm more worried about it being used in the hands of PC's to make them basically invulnerable to the big bad melee machine. basically, for -1 to hit, the PC gets a +4 AC bonus, cancels out the BBEG's best attack (and...
The monk is ponsing around like a ballet dancer, you are damn right I can ignore him as the BBEG. It's not about ignoring the player because he is a monk, I am ingnoring him beause he is attacking me once a round with hs scary bare hands. Tempting though it is to waste my time on him, the Paladin attacking with Smite, the TWF full attacking me, the Rogue stabbing me in the back, the Barbarian Rage, the Wizard blowing me away or trying to control me - THOSE are the guys that scare me. A monk that has used all his Feats to leap around is a whole lot less of a threat.
So, even at lvl 5 before people start getting multiple attacks (the only time where Spring Atk Monk is almost similar in threat to the others) the build is a nifty one. But really, the least of my problems
Wow. I can't believe this thread is still going...
Personally from all the styles I like Crane and Snapping Turtle. Why? Because I like the more defensive ones.
Crane Style has more appeal to me. It reminds me of the martial arts I am doing :)
I say a feat chain well done.
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You can force a stalemate with a reach weapon. Move to 5 ft away and attack. Blocked by Crane. AoO not possible due to fighter being out of range. Crane rival then has two options: Move away, not attacking at all, or take a 5 ft step in to attack, and take a Lucerne Hammer to the face next round. If the crane rival is a Fighter instead of a monk, an enlarge person spell tips it in the favor of the polearm user, as the increased range of attacks makes it difficult to escape without being within a 5 ft step.
As for bowstrings being nonmagical, by that reasoning, I should be able to sunder a monk's arm or leg. It is a weapon, after all.
Find me the rules for enchanting a locking guantlet. They don't specifically exist either.
But you can only sunder objects, and arms or legs are part of creatures, and you can't sunder a creature.
You can fight defensively while SPring Attacking, as pointed out above.
The arguments about ignoring the Monk don't work if the Crane is a fighter...nor if its one of the new Monks, who can really lay a smack down.
Reach does nothing but provoke an AoO...maybe. If spring attacking, there is no AoO. If not Spring Attacking, the best you can do is avoid the return AoO from the Crane as he parries, in which case he's still ahead 2:1. And if you're using a Reach Weapon, he doesn't even have to move away...YOU DO, or you can't attack him! Which means now YOU have to make the acrobatics check, or suffer an additional AoO!
And, of course, his readied action could be "Move up to my opponent and attack when he withdraws to attack me."
So THAT tactic doesn't work.
=======
Keep in mind I'm not at all worried about this being used in the hands of enemies. Enemies are pretty standardized, and the party will take them out.I'm more worried about it being used in the hands of PC's to make them basically invulnerable to the big bad melee machine. basically, for -1 to hit, the PC gets a +4 AC bonus, cancels out the BBEG's best attack (and...
A reach weapon would put you 5 ft away, too close for a spring attack. If you're not a monk, You can take a 5 ft step in, avoiding AoO but eating your movement for the round, move in, using Crane style to eat the AoO, still eating your movement, or use these tactics to move away. Move up to strike, and the polearm user can take a 5 ft step back, avoiding any AoO for leaving a threatened square and hit you once (more if Crane was used to negate the previous AoO). The only advantage Monk has in this situation is the ability to get further away. Make that mistake, and I'll back up as far as I can (bleeding out your exit distance, and ready actions to hit you when you come into range forcing Three attacks (an AoO coming in, the readied attack, and an AoO coming out. You can use acrobatics, but remember you can only move half your speed when you do that.
Additionally, you can't ready a move and an attack. You can only ready one type of action (move, standard, swift, etc)
While there are no specific rules dictating bowstrings (this is an abstraction, after all), your reasoning definitely goes against RAI for sunder. What would be the point of enchanting bows, with that thought process? Whether the string is sundered or the wood, the bow is rendered useless. It's a bit of lawyering to reinforce your point. If you want to get that detailed, that string should only be able to be sundered by slashing weapons. Piercing weapons should not be able to sunder at all. I should be able to sunder the straps on magical armor with anything. Doesn't break the armor, just makes it useless for the time being. Straps can be replaced. You reasoning just puts a tax on ranged fighters.
As for the continuing of this thread, I am a terrible minmaxer (my go to character in 3.x was themed sorcerers. I am a concept nerd.), I am very fond of strategy. This is an excellent exercise to me. I apologize to anyone hoping this ends :)
Piercing weapons can't be used to sunder (slashing or blunt, and only as appropriate) in normal situations. You also can't sunder armor while it is being worn.
In case of the no spring attack, he'd have to attack, retreat, use up the parry, get the AoO, and retreat to a distance that would force you to close. If you're using a Reach weapon, that's a 5' step from being able to Spring Attack (and you can move sideways and in as part of a Spring attack...
Note that using a Reach Weapon specifically ALLOWS Spring Attack...you aren't starting adjacent to me, so you aren't shutting me down. As long as I move 10', I can Spring Attack, avoid the AoO from Reach, and move out of range. I may not get an AoO when I parry your standard action, but that still leaves me 1:0 in a duel.
If you have a reach weapon, the AoO for leaving a threatened square happens before you leave the square, not after! :)
If you have to back up, after you stop moving, the ready action goes up, the monk closes 5', and your Reach weapon does nothing (no AoO for a 5' step). I can also have the Ready action be 'if they move away more then 5', move with them', which would keep me right next to a Reach weapon wielder, right?
A THW fighter can 'free hand' by letting go of his weapon at the end of his turn, no? IF it's a weapon capable of being wielded in one hand normally (i.e. a bastard sword). I'm not sure if the wording on the THW fighter applies only to weapons in two hands, or weapons that can ONLY be wielded with two hands...be kinda strange if he couldn't get his bonuses for using a longsword or battleaxe or morningstar in both hands...
Regardless :) You get a high damage bozo not taking his enemy's best attack, +4 to AC, and an extra attack every round, for -1 damage. That's one HELL of a feat chain!
====Aelryinth
Here's a dumb question.
There's a couple weapons that grant you a shield bonus to AC if you wield them, Aldori dueling swords among them. This is analogous to shields being usable as weapons.
Can you enhance the shield bonus these weapons give? I can't find anything in the rules that says you can't...but the bonus might be derived from the feat instead of a weapon, so's, not sure.
Be funny if you could enhance an Aldori Dueling sword's shield benefit...
==Aelryinth
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Piercing weapons can't be used to sunder (slashing or blunt, and only as appropriate) in normal situations.
Um... that is not true.
Sunder
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
In case of the no spring attack, he'd have to attack, retreat, use up the parry, get the AoO, and retreat to a distance that would force you to close. If you're using a Reach weapon, that's a 5' step from being able to Spring Attack (and you can move sideways and in as part of a Spring attack...
Note that using a Reach Weapon specifically ALLOWS Spring Attack...you aren't starting adjacent to me, so you aren't shutting me down. As long as I move 10', I can Spring Attack, avoid the AoO from Reach, and move out of range. I may not get an AoO when I parry your standard action, but that still leaves me 1:0 in a duel.If you have a reach weapon, the AoO for leaving a threatened square happens before you leave the square, not after! :)
If you have to back up, after you stop moving, the ready action goes up, the monk closes 5', and your Reach weapon does nothing (no AoO for a 5' step). I can also have the Ready action be 'if they move away more then 5', move with them', which would keep me right next to a Reach weapon wielder, right?
A THW fighter can 'free hand' by letting go of his weapon at the end of his turn, no? IF it's a weapon capable of being wielded in one hand normally (i.e. a bastard sword). I'm not sure if the wording on the THW fighter applies only to weapons in two hands, or weapons that can ONLY be wielded with two hands...be kinda strange if he couldn't get his bonuses for using a longsword or battleaxe or morningstar in both hands...
Doing what your describing one, negates your ability to make AoOs with that 2h weapon, and also reeks of metagame thinking and intentional loophole finding and exploiting.
Regardless :) You get a high damage bozo not taking his enemy's best attack, +4 to AC, and an extra attack every round, for -1 damage. That's one HELL of a feat chain!
====Aelryinth
Alright fine, in your absolutely narrow situation this feat chain is nothing but pure unadulterated win.
Unfortunately 1:1 fights simply do not happen all that often in the game. And when they do your twinked out Crane duelist will slowly whittle away at his opponent until he wins the duel. Guess what, that is a valid tactic that one could do WITHOUT using this feat chain, the chain just makes it much easier.
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When used in this way, the extra attack comes at the expense of a full attack, and (in the monk's case) a full BAB. And he's not taking one of his enemies' best attack. The other guys' can get through at him just fine. Feat chain here means 'roughly 1/3 of the feats the character will ever have.'
Just thought I'd throw a few clarifications in there.
You are correct on the sundering...that is an adjustment from the old rules, which restricted sunders to blunt and slash damage! Now it seems that they merely restrict it to 'inapplicable damage', i.e. the mace on the rope rule.
Regardless, you still can't sunder armor while it is being worn, unless you're a bebilith or something.
==Aelryinth
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When used in this way, the extra attack comes at the expense of a full attack, and (in the monk's case) a full BAB. And he's not taking one of his enemies' best attack. The other guys' can get through at him just fine. Feat chain here means 'roughly 1/3 of the feats the character will ever have.'
Just thought I'd throw a few clarifications in there.
Feat chain means more than one feat that is reliant on having the other feats in the 'chain' in order to gain more benefit.
It doesn't require a certain number of feats of the total you will have be used up otherwise a 'feat chain' would be a 'feat chain' for one character and not for another -- which is rubbish.
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You are correct on the sundering...that is an adjustment from the old rules, which restricted sunders to blunt and slash damage! Now it seems that they merely restrict it to 'inapplicable damage', i.e. the mace on the rope rule.
Regardless, you still can't sunder armor while it is being worn, unless you're a bebilith or something.
==Aelryinth
This is incorrect:
You can attempt to sunder an item held by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
When used in this way, the extra attack comes at the expense of a full attack, and (in the monk's case) a full BAB. And he's not taking one of his enemies' best attack. The other guys' can get through at him just fine. Feat chain here means 'roughly 1/3 of the feats the character will ever have.'
Just thought I'd throw a few clarifications in there.
Not taking ONE of his opponent's attack is perfectly fine if it's the ONLY attack the opponent can make (i.e. restricted to standard action). It's a 2:0 damage, which is absolutely awesome until 15th + level, where your third iterative might actually hit. Two attacks going off at full BAB -1 is generally much better then getting +2 iteratives, because those secondary attacks, and especially the tertiary, have excellent chances of missing.
Wow, just read Aldori Swordlord, does it dovetail nicely with the fighting defensively here. Full attack action, the Aldori is going to get a +7 AC bonus and be swinging at NO PENALTY. And if someone swings at them, they get an AoO, parry it, and get ANOTHER AoO. And they get another scaling AC bonus when making a full attack. Ouch!
==Aelryinth
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Here's a dumb question.
There's a couple weapons that grant you a shield bonus to AC if you wield them, Aldori dueling swords among them. This is analogous to shields being usable as weapons.
Can you enhance the shield bonus these weapons give? I can't find anything in the rules that says you can't...but the bonus might be derived from the feat instead of a weapon, so's, not sure.
Be funny if you could enhance an Aldori Dueling sword's shield benefit...
==Aelryinth
I don't think it's a dumb question at all -- rather nuanced I would say:
My feelings on this is that the shield bonus can't be enhanced by 'raw' since it is a function of a feat in most cases instead of the weapon itself (specifically in the case of the Aldori Dueling Sword).
In the case of combination weapons like the klar which is specifically on the shield list I think by RAW you can enhance it as a shield, since it is listed as such. This would be much like enhancing a spiked shield as both a weapon and a shield.
You are correct on the sundering...that is an adjustment from the old rules, which restricted sunders to blunt and slash damage! Now it seems that they merely restrict it to 'inapplicable damage', i.e. the mace on the rope rule.
Regardless, you still can't sunder armor while it is being worn, unless you're a bebilith or something.
==Aelryinth
This is incorrect:
You can attempt to sunder an item held by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.If your attack is successful, you deal damage to the item normally. Damage that exceeds the object's Hardness is subtracted from its hit points. If an object has equal to or less than half its total hit points remaining, it gains the broken condition. If the damage you deal would reduce the object to less than 0 hit points, you can choose to destroy it. If you do not choose to destroy it, the object is left with only 1 hit point and the broken condition.
o.0
I just filled in the 'can't sunder worn armor' automatically as an exemption. But there's actually several feats which mention sundering armor directly, and Lucerne Hammers give you bonus on doing it!
I think that's just awesome:)
I will note that a buckle is probably a fine object for that -20 to CMB, and sundering one buckle isn't going to ruin a whole suit of armor ;)
===Aelryinth
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Not taking ONE of his opponent's attack is perfectly fine if it's the ONLY attack the opponent can make (i.e. restricted to standard action). It's a 2:0 damage, which is absolutely awesome until 15th + level, where your third iterative might actually hit. Two attacks going off at full BAB -1 is generally much better then getting +2 iteratives, because those secondary attacks, and especially the tertiary, have excellent chances of missing.
Wow, just read Aldori Swordlord, does it dovetail nicely with the fighting defensively here. Full attack action, the Aldori is going to get a +7 AC bonus and be swinging at NO PENALTY. And if someone swings at them, they get an AoO, parry it, and get ANOTHER AoO. And they get another scaling AC bonus when making a full attack. Ouch!
==Aelryinth
Considering you are spending:
1 feat for unarmed strike, 1 for dodge, and 3 for crane style
Plus
5 feats for Aldori Dueling Mastery
for a total of 8 feats I don't think that's too insane.
Also you would have to use the dueling sword one handed in order to benefit from crane style.
You would take a -0 (-1 from crane style + a penalty reducer from Aldori Swordlord) to hit and get a +8 bonus to AC (+10 versus melee attacks):
+1 (dodge)
+2 (defensive fighting)
+1 (crane style defensive fighting)
+2 (shield bonus from Aldori Dueling Mastery)
+2 (dodge bonus from level 7 Aldori swordlord)
+2 (bonus against melee attacks only)
it isn't a bad deal. You could have all the feats needed by 7th level with a human fighter (iirc).
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I just filled in the 'can't sunder worn armor' automatically as an exemption. But there's actually several feats which mention sundering armor directly, and Lucerne Hammers give you bonus on doing it!
I think that's just awesome:)
I will note that a buckle is probably a fine object for that -20 to CMB, and sundering one buckle isn't going to ruin a whole suit of armor ;)
Um... the size of the object doesn't affect your CMD -- only the size of the creature (since it is your CMD that is opposed not the buckler's).
Also A suggestion for human fighters:
Take the racial favored class bonus for fighter and increase your CMD against Grappling and Sundering/Tripping. I would suggest grappling every level and sundering or tripping every other level.
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When used in this way, the extra attack comes at the expense of a full attack, and (in the monk's case) a full BAB. And he's not taking one of his enemies' best attack. The other guys' can get through at him just fine. Feat chain here means 'roughly 1/3 of the feats the character will ever have.'
Just thought I'd throw a few clarifications in there.
Feat chain means more than one feat that is reliant on having the other feats in the 'chain' in order to gain more benefit.
It doesn't require a certain number of feats of the total you will have be used up otherwise a 'feat chain' would be a 'feat chain' for one character and not for another -- which is rubbish.
I am well aware of the meaning of feat chain. I was pointing out that the particular combination of feats which Aelryinth proposes--Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte accounts for around 1/3 of the total feats that you can get by being human and taking 20 levels of fighter, which gains you more feats than any other build in the game.
@Aelryinth: That Crane Wing ignores only one attack wasn't my point there. It was that it only ignores one attack from a single enemy. If Crane Wing could deflect one attack per enemy attacking, then you might have a legitimate problem. But when Crane style comes up against multiple opponents, its in trouble.
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I am well aware of the meaning of feat chain. I was pointing out that the particular combination of feats which Aelryinth proposes--Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte accounts for around 1/3 of the total feats that you can get by being human and taking 20 levels of fighter, which gains you more feats than any other build in the game.
Ah well ok... but 20 levels of fighter as a human isn't the most feats you can gain in the game.
Instead lets do this:
Human Zen Archer monk 6/ fighter(unbreakable) 12/ Cavalier(lurking) 1
perfect strike
precise shot
point blank shot
weapon focus(long bow)
weapon specialization(long bow)
improved precise shot
point blank master
Endurance
Toughness
(tactician feat)
and then 6 more bonus feats and all your normal feats as well as human feat.
That's 27 feats all together, and while we are at it grab that ioun stone that gives you alertness for 28 total... just cause we can.
Not taking ONE of his opponent's attack is perfectly fine if it's the ONLY attack the opponent can make (i.e. restricted to standard action). It's a 2:0 damage, which is absolutely awesome until 15th + level, where your third iterative might actually hit. Two attacks going off at full BAB -1 is generally much better then getting +2 iteratives, because those secondary attacks, and especially the tertiary, have excellent chances of missing.
Wow, just read Aldori Swordlord, does it dovetail nicely with the fighting defensively here. Full attack action, the Aldori is going to get a +7 AC bonus and be swinging at NO PENALTY. And if someone swings at them, they get an AoO, parry it, and get ANOTHER AoO. And they get another scaling AC bonus when making a full attack. Ouch!
==Aelryinth
Considering you are spending:
1 feat for unarmed strike, 1 for dodge, and 3 for crane style
Plus
5 feats for Aldori Dueling Mastery
for a total of 8 feats I don't think that's too insane.
Also you would have to use the dueling sword one handed in order to benefit from crane style.
You would take a -0 (-1 from crane style + a penalty reducer from Aldori Swordlord) to hit and get a +8 bonus to AC (+10 versus melee attacks):
+1 (dodge)
+2 (defensive fighting)
+1 (crane style defensive fighting)
+2 (shield bonus from Aldori Dueling Mastery)
+2 (dodge bonus from level 7 Aldori swordlord)
+2 (bonus against melee attacks only)it isn't a bad deal. You could have all the feats needed by 7th level with a human fighter (iirc).
Minor Quibble:
+1 Dodge feat+3 Defensive Fighting (Acrobatics, 5 ranks)
+1 Crane Defensive bonus feat
+2 Shield Bonus Aldori Duelling Mastery feat
+2 Dodge defensive, Aldori Swordlord Archetype
= +7 AC bonus ALL the time, +2 Shield. Since you have NO penalty for fighting defensively, you simply fight defensively all the time as a default.
and +2 when in Melee delivering a full attack.
If you are level 12 -
Someone attacks you...
1/rd, AoO for being attacked. Note this takes an immediate action, it doesn't use up an AoO like normal. You don't even need combat reflexes! (Aldori Swordlord)
1/rd, AoO for parrying an attack and stopping it (Crane)
+ Your normal attack.
You are now 3:0, with full BAB, on an exchange of standard actions. You get two extra attacks, -1 attack for a foe, on an exchange of full attacks.
Note: the aldori sword works best when one handed, the aldori swordlord doesn't use a shield, and neither does the Crane style.
The synergies are...impressive. Note that +7 AC bonus is effective ALL the time. That's the equivalent of a +5 bonus to a shield and Heavy armor prof all by itself, without touching anything else.
==Aelryinth
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Aelryinth it is still an AoO -- it's even called such... its simply more expensive than other AoO's since it takes an immediate action too. AND it only kicks in after you've been hit -- if you haven't been hit you don't get to take that AoO.
Agree on the one handed that's what I pointed out.
I did forget the bonus from acrobatics which would increase the AC bonus by 1 more than I had meaning a +9 bonus (+11 against melee attacks).
It's effective all the time you aren't flat footed or denied your Dex... not quite the same thing -- take blind fighting for sure to help enlarge the number of times you can use it.
But for the amount you are investing in it... I'm not too worried: You are completely set up for melee only which means getting shot will stink.
I would suggest that some Duelist levels could be a good thing to mix in that but you're going to be MAD has heck if you do.
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And it's not effective ALL the time, only when you are fighting defensively. In other words, if you haven't acted in combat yet, you don't get the bonuses.
If you are ambushed by a ninja, you don't get the bonuses.
If you spend an action to charge or use vital strike or cast a spell rather than fight defensively, you don't get the bonuses.
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And I don't have to sunder your +4 bow. I have to sunder your +0 bowstring.
===Aelryinth
Off-topic but discussed in the tread.
On one hand, it sounds absolutely logical to be able to cut (sunder) a bow string. Not only that, but it sensibly sounds like an easier way to disable a bow than breaking the said bow in two.
True, bowstrings are not listed on the equipment chart, but we know that this chart is by no means extensive. We are aware of its existence. We know it exist as a detachable part of the bow. We can logically assume that bowstrings deteriorate faster than the bow itself, therefore bowstrings have to be available for sale separately from the bow.
In that regard, the are analogue to the buttons on a shirt, the leather straps inside a shield and the laces of a suit of armors.
On the other hand, items are usually enchanted as a whole; at least this is the general assumption. Crossbows are not enchanted part by part, lever by lever and rivet by rivet. It is fair to assume that the initial bowstring was enchanted as part of the bow upon its creation. Such a string would resist the tides of time and the wear and tear as easily as the bow itself.
We also know that many enchantments and magical effects extend to their immediate environment, including items they touch and everything that is 'part of them'. Attended objects benefit from the saving throw of their wielders, protection from fire also protect the recipient's clothes etc. In that light, I don't think it is a far stretch to assume that the magical enhancement of a bow extends to all of its components, including the bowstring. Even if it doesn't say so specifically by RaW, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that this is the case by RaI.
Furthermore, as many have pointed out, bowstrings are not easily identifiable as something that can receive an enhancement bonus on a scale of 5 (like a weapon, an armor, a ring of protection or a cloak of resistance etc). Even if locking gauntlets are not primarily intended to be used as weapons, they are weapons. They have a damage rating like any other weapon in the book, and we have rules to use them as a such. Not so with the bowstring. I guess it could be used as an improvised weapon to strangle/trip someone, but declaring that it has to be enchanted as a weapon because it could be used as an improvised weapon is pushing the argument a bit far IMO. Likewise, I don't see the bowstring being enchanted to grant a shield bonus, a deflection bonus or a resistance bonus; none of these fit to the theme of a bowstring.
And then there is the practical - if unrealistic - aspect to consider. A +0 string would rot easily. No 500 years old mighty bow of elven awesomeness would be immediately usable after being found. Same would go for magic armors or magical shields (too bad you don't have extra leather straps in your inventory). From there, it wouldn't be a far stretch to say that the shaft of this +2 spear has rotten, that the laces in this +3 leather armor have degraded and the buckle of this belt of giant's strength is rusted shut. Again I don't think this is explicitly written as such, but I believe that the game accepts a fair amount of un-realism for the sake of playability.
From what I can read from the rest of the game, I'd say that bowstrings are either enchanted with the bow (therefore not easier to sunder and just as expensive to replace as repairing a sundered bow) or the bow extends its magical benefit to its string (my favorite approach). the later would make a sunder attempt on a bowstring a bit easier, as long as you can bypass the magical bonus of the bow.
'findel
Aelryinth it is still an AoO -- it's even called such... its simply more expensive than other AoO's since it takes an immediate action too. AND it only kicks in after you've been hit -- if you haven't been hit you don't get to take that AoO.
Agree on the one handed that's what I pointed out.
I did forget the bonus from acrobatics which would increase the AC bonus by 1 more than I had meaning a +9 bonus (+11 against melee attacks).
It's effective all the time you aren't flat footed or denied your Dex... not quite the same thing -- take blind fighting for sure to help enlarge the number of times you can use it.
But for the amount you are investing in it... I'm not too worried: You are completely set up for melee only which means getting shot will stink.
I would suggest that some Duelist levels could be a good thing to mix in that but you're going to be MAD has heck if you do.
Not sure on the AoO, Abraham...it seems to me that they are subbing the cost, not adding one on. Need a ruling, I guess.
Also have to revise the AC...the Aldori Swordlord defensive bonus only applies on a full-round action...which I'm going to assume means a full attack? So, great AC on a full attack, not quite as good without it.
Duelist levels would have flavor, but not effectiveness. Perhaps after level 13, when you get Weapon Training 4. bonuses to hit are very important.
I'm not seeing your 'melee only' set up. That's only a +2 bonus from The Swordlord archetype. The rest of your AC holds up against being shot.
Edit: Duh, you're referring to the parries and AoO's. NM. Crane would still have a very good AC, and he's no better off against being shot then any normal fighter is. Net win for the Crane.
It would be wonderful if you could get uncanny dodge as a feat for this build. Alas...maybe some barb levels after 13.
===Aelryinth
And I don't have to sunder your +4 bow. I have to sunder your +0 bowstring.
===Aelryinth
Off-topic but discussed in the tread.
** spoiler omitted **...
A fair enough ruling, Laur. I just don't consider a bowstring 'integral' to the bow. Bowstrings get taken off and removed. A locking gauntlet doesn't suddenly get +10 to hardness when attached to a +5 sword, why should a bowstring? Nor does the gauntlet become +5 when worn with +5 armor.
I'd happily rule there's enough magic to keep the string intact under normal circumstances...but then someone is sure to argue that 'normal circumstances' should include raining, so they can fire their bow in a downpour without a problem with a wet string. Meh.
===Aelryinth
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A fair enough ruling, Laur. I just don't consider a bowstring 'integral' to the bow. Bowstrings get taken off and removed. A locking gauntlet doesn't suddenly get +10 to hardness when attached to a +5 sword, why should a bowstring? Nor does the gauntlet become +5 when worn with +5 armor.
I'd happily rule there's enough magic to keep the string intact under normal circumstances...but then someone is sure to argue that 'normal circumstances' should include raining, so they can fire their bow in a downpour without a problem with a wet string. Meh.
===Aelryinth
Tell you what Aelryinth:
A gauntlet has function seperate of the armor. The bow string does not have function separate of the bow. The bow imparts its magic on the arrow fired -- so why wouldn't it impart the same magic on the bow string which has no function without the bow (and visa versa)?
The gauntlet is a false analogy since it has separate function. You would be better off trying to sunder just the breastplate of full plate for a more apt example...
or for an even better example the handle of an axe of pole arm.
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Aelryinth it is still an AoO -- it's even called such... its simply more expensive than other AoO's since it takes an immediate action too. AND it only kicks in after you've been hit -- if you haven't been hit you don't get to take that AoO.
Agree on the one handed that's what I pointed out.
I did forget the bonus from acrobatics which would increase the AC bonus by 1 more than I had meaning a +9 bonus (+11 against melee attacks).
It's effective all the time you aren't flat footed or denied your Dex... not quite the same thing -- take blind fighting for sure to help enlarge the number of times you can use it.
But for the amount you are investing in it... I'm not too worried: You are completely set up for melee only which means getting shot will stink.
I would suggest that some Duelist levels could be a good thing to mix in that but you're going to be MAD has heck if you do.
Not sure on the AoO, Abraham...it seems to me that they are subbing the cost, not adding one on. Need a ruling, I guess.
Well it's specifically called an attack of opportunity. Can't be much more of one than that. It doesn't say it functions 'like an attack of opportunity' or 'this is like an attack of opportunity but...' it simply says 'as an immediate action you can take an attack of opportunity against an opponent that hits you in melee combat." (or however the end of the statement goes).
As such I'm comfortable saying it's an attack of opportunity since that is exactly what it is called. All the ability does is let you take one when you normally couldn't, which is the part that eats up the immediate action in my opinion.
Also have to revise the AC...the Aldori Swordlord defensive bonus only applies on a full-round action...which I'm going to assume means a full attack? So, great AC on a full attack, not quite as good without it.
Yeah still not bad at all though.
Duelist levels would have flavor, but not effectiveness. Perhaps after level 13, when you get Weapon Training 4. bonuses to hit are very important.
Dervish levels could add on more AC and would add on more damage -- it all comes down to what sort of armor you do or don't want to be wearing and if you want another means of parrying or not.
I'm not seeing your 'melee only' set up. That's only a +2 bonus from The Swordlord archetype. The rest of your AC holds up against being shot.
Edit: Duh, you're referring to the parries and AoO's. NM. Crane would still have a very good AC, and he's no better off against being shot then any normal fighter is. Net win for the Crane.
Well a 'normal' fighter can certainly do fine against ranged attacks too and can have a very nice AC on his own as well -- a shielded fighter for example could go with a tower shield dip some monk for unarmed strike pick up the master of many forms hit dragon style and crane style and fight defensively to have just as much AC if not more and be able to share it with adjacent allies as well... his ability to hit might not be as good of course though with a tower shield so we can simply drop him down to a heavy shield and have him use it as his primary weapon.
It would be wonderful if you could get uncanny dodge as a feat for this build. Alas...maybe some barb levels after 13.===Aelryinth
Either that or some rogue, or internal vivisectionist alchemist.
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A fair enough ruling, Laur. I just don't consider a bowstring 'integral' to the bow. Bowstrings get taken off and removed. A locking gauntlet doesn't suddenly get +10 to hardness when attached to a +5 sword, why should a bowstring? Nor does the gauntlet become +5 when worn with +5 armor.
===Aelryinth
Tell you what Aelryinth:
A gauntlet has function seperate of the armor. The bow string does not have function separate of the bow. The bow imparts its magic on the arrow fired -- so why wouldn't it impart the same magic on the bow string which has no function without the bow (and visa versa)?
The gauntlet is a false analogy since it has separate function. You would be better off trying to sunder just the breastplate of full plate for a more apt example...
or for an even better example the handle of an axe of pole arm.
The bowstring is a very specific corner case.
Unlike the shaft of a polearm, the bowstring is meant to be detached frequently, adjusted and changed whenever needed. Ultimately, it is a disposable item, like the strings of a guitar. We could say that the wooden shaft of a spear is similar, only the frequency of the replacement is much lower.
But unlike the locking gauntlet, the bowstring has no use outside its primary function, whereas the locking gauntlet is still a protective item even without locked-in weapons. Also the bowstring is an integral part of the mechanism of the bow for without which the bow simply cannot loose arrows, unlike the sword which can still be used without a locking gauntlet. For the sword, the locking gauntlet is an optional accessory. For the bow, the string is essential.
The ganutlet get used without the sword. The sword get used without the gaunlet. Neither the bow nor the strings are usable on their own. There, I think, lies the fundamental difference between the gauntlet and the bowstring and which is why, like Abe, I do not see the locking gauntlet as a proper analogy for the bowstring.
In that sense, the bowstring is closer to the straps that allows you to don a suit of plate mail. They are items that exist outside the armor, but the armor cannot function as intended without them. They too are part of the many little things that adventurers constantly need to adjust, repair and replace, only us players do not keep track of all these things. So would these armor straps burn independently from the otherwise fire-resistant armor? Should enemies be allowed to effectively sunder your +5 plate mail because they aimed at the straps? I think it could be possible, even fun in the right context - as with the bowstring - as long as we agree that it is of the domain of houserules. In that case, a DM would need to be consistent and offer damaged loot to its players (magic shields without handles, magic armors without straps, magic bows without strings, magic spears without shaft etc), which could lead to frustration with the majority of players.
But aside from that, I really don't think that neither RaW nor RaI consider strings and straps separately from their respective items as far as damage and magical enhancement are concerned...
'findel
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Progress Report: Crane Style Monk w/archetypes in PF Savage Tide.
So we came across this Titan crocodile thing. We succeeded perception, so no surprise round. Rolled initiative and I got pretty low, and the croc is first. He charges in to me, as I'm taking point, with a critical bite and takes out more than half my HP. As my turn comes up, I activate Slow Time to get a few standard actions to buff up my AC, close in and make one defensive attack (I was already in Crane from the previous battle which took place moments before). Perfect, because on his next turn he rolls another critical threat. Deflected! I don't have the 3rd feat yet, so I just block. His next roll on his full attack is a 1, so he's done. The croc gets confused this round, so he'll attack the last person to attack him. We've dealt with confusion a lot this game, so the fighter delays his attack the next round so the croc can target me since I've been up in there defensive flurries around blocking the occasional hit (my AC went up by 10 if I remember correctly, so I deflected 3 attacks overall).
So it saved me, kept me in the game, and I made out to be an imposing force between the party and the baddie. PERFECT! That's exactly what I wanted to be doing, and these feats help facilitate that.
Great defense. So far, that's all I've seen. Wait 'till next odd level to get the last one, to see if that changes my play a little bit. But one extra attack from a monk usually isn't the end of the world.
The first feat is still powerful. Cutting the penalty in half for fighting defensively and adding one to the bonus is a potent feat.
I agree. Crane Style is driving the dm nuts. A Master of Many Styles monk can have Crane Wing by 2nd level. He took Crane Wing for a Monk/Ftr (Elusive Fighter)/Duelist AC build. So his AC is already extremely high making him difficult to hit. When the DM does hit him, he evades with Crane Wing. Drives the DM crazy. Though he did hammer the character with ranged attacks which the character can still be torn up by. No dodging ranged attacks. But against low level melee characters, it's pretty powerful.
I gather the Monk didn't take Deflect Arrows?
==Aelryinth
Since monks get a ton of them and he was refering to a monk actual BUILD, plenty easy to take. It's a monk bonus feat.
And actually, it's more along the lines of "Making a character invulnerable to standard attack actions, being able to limit an enemy to only taking standard attack actions, yet with a great AC to defend against other attack options."
Unless the enemy has alternate ways to attack, it's a form of tanking invulnerability. All you need is 10' of room to manuver.
===Aelryinth
Just to chime in:
I've taken the wording "melee weapon attack" to mean that things like bite, gore or claw attacks can't be deflected. Have I been mistaken? Has this been clarified?
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Bites, gores, and claws are still natural weapons, and are used in melee attacks, making them melee weapons. Nothing in Crane Wing's text says it only works on manufactured weapons.Just to chime in:
I've taken the wording "melee weapon attack" to mean that things like bite, gore or claw attacks can't be deflected. Have I been mistaken? Has this been clarified?
Why then put "weapon" in that sentence?
No, I believe that is to exclude natural weapons.
Again, has this been clarified?
PS
See also PRD, natural weapons:
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack
See? natural weapons != melee weapons.
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If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."
In this thread.
It seems like the feint maneuver does a pretty good job of getting through a Crane technique monk.
Given the lousy odds of success for a Feint manuver, I'm not really impressed :P You're in effect losing an attack...so you MAYBE won't lose an attack. Kinda odd, at the least, from a cost standpoint.
The closest thing to equality you'd get is a TWF with Double slice, and even then, with the AoO, Crane is up 2:1.
Of course, a Barbarian with Come and Get Me has the same advantage, only better. Robilar's Gambit IS incredibly powerful.
==Aelryinth
This has been beaten to death in many threads. A natural weapon is a melee weapon.No, I believe that is to exclude natural weapons.
Again, has this been clarified?
Hm. Does not seem to be used in the rules this way consistently though. In the natural attacks section, it is distinguished between unarmed, natural and melee weapon attacks.
Also "melee weapons" is used consistently in the equipment section to describe manufactured weapons. The term is at no point i could find used to describe natural weapons.
It even says:
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon).
Emphasis mine.
So, per RAW: natural attack != weapon attack.
I disagree with SKR. The wording of the feat is in a way that it does NOT apply to natural attacks. Changing this would require an errata (re-wording of the feat).