Ah, Crane Technique


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Ravingdork wrote:
Hah! Trick question. I don't think such a character will ever get as broken as Aelryinth says.

Touche, spiderman, you saw through my ruse. Off the top of your head, by 8th level, how many different ways can you counter the crane wing/deflect arrows defense?


Crane's fine by me, but it's interesting to see this debate and various mchanic options on the thing.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Matt Stich wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Hah! Trick question. I don't think such a character will ever get as broken as Aelryinth says.
Touche, spiderman, you saw through my ruse. Off the top of your head, by 8th level, how many different ways can you counter the crane wing/deflect arrows defense?

Off the top of my head?

In no particular order...
Mobility fighter* using multiple attacks
TWF fighter* using multiple attacks
Any ranged character capable of making multiple attacks
Any combat maneuver build with a readied action (grapple in particular)
Any spellcaster at all using any one of a thousand spells
A commoner using pit traps, herds of stampeding cows, and/or antagonize to great effect

Anyone else can at least get a draw (charge in, attack gets negated/countered, crane can only really stand his ground or withdraw, either of which takes away much of crane's abilities and makes it a more even fight).

* referring to the archetype


Ravingdork wrote:
Matt Stich wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Hah! Trick question. I don't think such a character will ever get as broken as Aelryinth says.
Touche, spiderman, you saw through my ruse. Off the top of your head, by 8th level, how many different ways can you counter the crane wing/deflect arrows defense?

Off the top of my head?

In no particular order...
Mobility fighter* using multiple attacks
TWF fighter* using multiple attacks
Any ranged character capable of making multiple attacks
Any combat maneuver build with a readied action (grapple in particular)
Any spellcaster at all using any one of a thousand spells
A commoner using pit traps, herds of stampeding cows, and/or antagonize to great effect

Anyone else can at least get a draw (charge in, attack gets negated/countered, crane can only really stand his ground or withdraw, either of which takes away much of crane's abilities and makes it a more even fight).

* referring to the archetype

So you would not say you're 15th level build is OP by any stretch of the word, would you? I mean you've given us a build that is viable around 7-8 and multiple ways to get around that build, many of which don't even require magic to do.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Matt Stich wrote:
So you would not say you're 15th level build is OP by any stretch of the word, would you?

Well, a lot of people are of the opinion that the game begins to break down at about 15th-level anyways. I don't know how true that is, as I don't play past 10 very often (sadly), but making an equivalent build to my own above is far too easy, even when restricted to just core. Therefore, I really don't believe it is overpowered by ANY stretch of the imagination. Anyone saying otherwise is just using hyperbole.

Matt Stich wrote:
I mean you've given us a build that is viable around 7-8 and multiple ways to get around that build, many of which don't even require magic to do.

It is powerful, but it's also easy to counter. Balance has been maintained.

The ONLY time I can see it being a (small) problem is 4th and 5th-level (and ONLY those levels) when you have a human spring attack crane fighter getting in one attack a round with an enemy's single attack being negated.

Nevertheless, it is easy to counter via the use of combat maneuvers, similar tactics, utilizing more than a single enemy (as the crane can negate one attack per round, not one attack per enemy), and many other methods--even at those levels.


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From the srd:

Quote:


Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

So, let's say that a crane master style that we'ell name him "wuxiaguy" uses crane style fight vs a fighter that we'll name "bob".

Now, wuxiaguy spring attack bob. Wuxiaguy has fast movement, then he can, for example, attack from a minimum distance of 10 feet and move after the attack 80 ft. ( wuxiaguy is at least lvl 18 ).
Well done wuxiaguy. Now it's bob's turn. And Bob use 4 times his movement to be adjacent to wuxiaguy. Next turn: wuxiaguy can't spring attack.
Sure, he can tumble bob to try spring attack later, or maybe can take a standard action to attack and move ( using tumble to avoid Aoo ). But Bob is a fighter, he has a feat/lvl, maybe he wield a spear and has stand still, or maybe has step up and strike, etc.

Alternatively, bob has this fantastic feat:

Quote:


Catch Off-Guard (Combat)
Foes are surprised by your skilled use of unorthodox and improvised weapons.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.

and this:

Quote:


Improvised Weapon Mastery (Combat)
You can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon, from a razor-sharp chair leg to a sack of flour.

Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +8.

Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.

Now, if bob use as weapon a chair, this chair does 2d6+str damage, and wuxiaguy maybe is flat-footed ( or maybe not, if he use a temple sword, for example, but personal experience says that a playe, when play a monk, use only unarmed attack, ignoring monk's weapons :P ).

If wuxiaguy is flat-footed, he can't use Crane Wing. And if he can't use Crane Wing, he's screwed. And Bob say to wuxyaguy: well, you've spent decades of your life to be a fine and nearly invincible martial artist, fighting, training, etc. when you lose against a douchebag with a chair. Not bad, wuxiaguy. Not bad... * hit him wit the +5 flaming burst chair *


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PRD wrote:

Improved Unarmed Strike (Combat)

You are skilled at fighting while unarmed.

Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed—you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you attack foes while unarmed. Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your choice.

Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.

Improved unarmed strike negates the flat-footed thing (monk has this feat for free since level 1).

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DeathSpot wrote:
...I still think I'm gonna win with my meteor swarm.

Sigh.

The rules say that:
- meteor Swarms is a spell, specifically a a level 9 spells;
- that to cast spells you need to know the spell and have the relevant spell slot or you need to have the capability to cast that spell as a spell like capability.

So please, stop making thins thread worse with your strawman.

Aelryinth wrote:


And a 3 foot long taut string is a Fine object? I think you have your view of a fine object somewhat skewed. Maybe if I'm trying to cut it along the perfectly vertical axis...but hitting a bowstring isn't going to be harder then hitting the edge of a door as far as size goes. Do you have problems swatting at a yardstick?

Actually a longbow will be over 5' from tip to tip. So defining the string a fine sized object is very questionable.

On the other hand as rules go the string is a integral part of the bow when notched so it should get the bow enhancement bonus.
Sundering rules are fairly abstract (as a lot of rules in the game) so it is better not to question how the sundering happens.

I suspect a lot of players would be way more happier to have their bowstring sundered instead of their precious bow as the bowstring can be easily replaced.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I still have some problems with Crane Wing - I think it is overwhelmingly powerful versus your average opponent. A lot of the discussion has been about whether a spring attacking Crane Styling monk is completely immune to attacks, and "proving" or "disproving" that. That's not a relevant metric and dealing in absolutes is pointless.

The question is, how much does Crane Wing swing the balance against a usual opponent (monster with attack routine or fighter that is mostly melee and has a bow just for kicks)? Even if the monk is subject to the secondary attack(s), they are vs. a monk's defensive fighting AC.

I'd like to see dpr of monk vs opponent with and without Crane Wing. I believe that a) vs your usual monster, as the primary attack that gets blocked is almost always the highest damage one, this feat is super great and b) vs your usual fighter, it's still really good since attacks after their first are at -5 to hit on top of the defensive fighting AC bonus. And even worse if you run the numbers on "I step back and throw my dagger" tactics for the fighter - your average two-weapon 80 dpr kill 'em all fighter is going to do an average of maybe 5 dpr doing that.


Ernest Mueller wrote:
The question is, how much does Crane Wing swing the balance against a usual opponent (monster with attack routine or fighter that is mostly melee and has a bow just for kicks)? ... I believe that a) vs your usual monster, as the primary attack that gets blocked is almost always the highest damage one, this feat is super great

When making a full attack, does a monster have to follow a fixed order? Could a GM not choose to lead with a monster's weaker attacks or less accurate attacks first in an attempt to use up a character's special defences like Crane style?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Pretty sure that is against the rules.

Edit:

Full Attack wrote:
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.

Plus, you only have to negate attacks that hit, so even if you could lead with your weak attacks, if they miss and the strong attacks hit, you're right back where you started.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ernest Mueller wrote:

I still have some problems with Crane Wing - I think it is overwhelmingly powerful versus your average opponent. A lot of the discussion has been about whether a spring attacking Crane Styling monk is completely immune to attacks, and "proving" or "disproving" that. That's not a relevant metric and dealing in absolutes is pointless.

The question is, how much does Crane Wing swing the balance against a usual opponent (monster with attack routine or fighter that is mostly melee and has a bow just for kicks)? Even if the monk is subject to the secondary attack(s), they are vs. a monk's defensive fighting AC.

I'd like to see dpr of monk vs opponent with and without Crane Wing. I believe that a) vs your usual monster, as the primary attack that gets blocked is almost always the highest damage one, this feat is super great and b) vs your usual fighter, it's still really good since attacks after their first are at -5 to hit on top of the defensive fighting AC bonus. And even worse if you run the numbers on "I step back and throw my dagger" tactics for the fighter - your average two-weapon 80 dpr kill 'em all fighter is going to do an average of maybe 5 dpr doing that.

If Deflect Arrows is balanced, than Crane Wing, which does exactly the same thing, except against a different type of attack, and requires even more investment to get, is also fine.

Grand Lodge

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The brilliant thing that Crane Style does let you do? Tank a T-Rex, as a monk (yes, or anyone really), at no risk to yourself! :D

I have to admit, that's awesome. Definitely a feature, not a bug. I'm just seeing this T-Rex come charging over the hill and the monk stepping forward, narrowing his eyes and saying "Don't worry, guys. I got this."

Sovereign Court

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Ninjaiguana wrote:

The brilliant thing that Crane Style does let you do? Tank a T-Rex, as a monk (yes, or anyone really), at no risk to yourself! :D

I have to admit, that's awesome. Definitely a feature, not a bug. I'm just seeing this T-Rex come charging over the hill and the monk stepping forward, narrowing his eyes and saying "Don't worry, guys. I got this."

But finds, to his horror, that it's actually a hasted T-Rex!


Ninjaiguana wrote:

The brilliant thing that Crane Style does let you do? Tank a T-Rex, as a monk (yes, or anyone really), at no risk to yourself! :D

I have to admit, that's awesome. Definitely a feature, not a bug. I'm just seeing this T-Rex come charging over the hill and the monk stepping forward, narrowing his eyes and saying "Don't worry, guys. I got this."

Lol I did this very thing in Savage Tide with my monk. Before I had Crane Style.

I'm hardcore like that.

Grand Lodge

Calixymenthillian wrote:
Ninjaiguana wrote:

The brilliant thing that Crane Style does let you do? Tank a T-Rex, as a monk (yes, or anyone really), at no risk to yourself! :D

I have to admit, that's awesome. Definitely a feature, not a bug. I'm just seeing this T-Rex come charging over the hill and the monk stepping forward, narrowing his eyes and saying "Don't worry, guys. I got this."

But finds, to his horror, that it's actually a hasted T-Rex!

Heh, I actually pulled that on my players once. Slapped the old legendary creature template on a T-Rex, selected 'perma-haste' - (Ex) perma-haste, at that! - from the list of abilities it can grant...very nasty.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My player's monk disemboweled a T-rex in my Shackled City game.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

A normal tank can easily accomplish what a crane character can without the feats. These feats don't really change the dynamic of the game, which when considering balance, is what is most important. Also, when it comes to challenging encounters, T-rexes are laughable.


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Monk: "Guys, with this feat I can totally tank a giant lizard!"
Wizard: "Wow you can tank a dragon! That's OP, man..."
Monk: "No, not a dragon..."
Rogue: "You can defeat a hydra? I think the Dm is going to nerf that..."
Monk: "No, not a hydra..."
Cleric: "So, like a wyvern or something?"
Monk: "Not that either, but I can tank a T-rex"
Fighter: "Yeah... that is... nice, I guess? Whatever. Have you guys seen my new sword? It's keen!"


Just read and reread Crane style feat chain. It's no biggie. In a straight fight you just ask a buddy to help you flank. And while in duel use a maneuver, eating an AoO if necessary... Grapple, Trip and Net are your friends.

Regards,
Ruemere

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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I don't see what all the fuss is about. If your opponent is using crane style, just ready an action to attack him when he can't use crane style to deflect your attack.

On your turn, ready your action and approach your opponent. If you reach your opponent while he can still use crane style to deflect your attack, your turn ends, his defensive fighting or full defense from the previous round ends at the start of his turn, and your readied attack goes off because he can't currently use crane style to deflect your attack.

If you don't reach your opponent and he moves up to attack you, he arrives adjacent to you, he isn't fighting defensively yet because he hasn't attacked yet, and your readied attack goes off because he can't currently use crane style to deflect your attack.

So crane style is only preventing you from attacking your opponent if he uses full defense and stays outside your reach. But an opponent without crane style could do the same thing by readying a move action and staying outside your reach. Guys willing to dance around outside your reach without attempting to attack you are often hard to melee attack, even without crane style.

All in all, crane style provides some solid benefits. And it forces opponents to start readying actions if they want to hit you in melee, which you can exploit to give your allies a tactical advantage if you can make yourself a big enough target. But crane style is hardly unbeatable.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The nerfs to Spring Attack and Vital Strike completely DESTROYED the already subpar mobility builds. If anything, the Crane Style feats make mobility builds somewhat viable again.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Epic Meepo wrote:

I don't see what all the fuss is about. If your opponent is using crane style, just ready an action to attack him when he can't use crane style to deflect your attack.

On your turn, ready your action and approach your opponent. If you reach your opponent while he can still use crane style to deflect your attack, your turn ends, his defensive fighting or full defense from the previous round ends at the start of his turn, and your readied attack goes off because he can't currently use crane style to deflect your attack.

If you don't reach your opponent and he moves up to attack you, he arrives adjacent to you, he isn't fighting defensively yet because he hasn't attacked yet, and your readied attack goes off because he can't currently use crane style to deflect your attack.

So crane style is only preventing you from attacking your opponent if he uses full defense and stays outside your reach. But an opponent without crane style could do the same thing by readying a move action and staying outside your reach. Guys willing to dance around outside your reach without attempting to attack you are often hard to melee attack, even without crane style.

All in all, crane style provides some solid benefits. And it forces opponents to start readying actions if they want to hit you in melee, which you can exploit to give your allies a tactical advantage if you can make yourself a big enough target. But crane style is hardly unbeatable.

This does NOT work, because defensive fighting starts at the start of his turn if he wants it to do so. You can't beat him to the punch on that point.

Ao0 of 1:4 is because you're not getting an AoO as he moves away all the time...you're getting it HALF the time because he's using Acrobatics to neutralize it.

So, the scenario is he moves, 50% miss chance to you...1 AoO /2 rds, on average.
It goes like this:
Rd 1. Assuming you start together with the Crane in range.
He moves back with Acrobatics. This round, his Acrobatics fail, so you get an AoO.
He parries, AoO's you back. 1:0.
He moves out of range, stops, and readies an action to attack you when you come into range.
You advance with a standard action or a charge or whatever, and get an attack. He also gets an attack on you.
2:1 for attacks.

Rd 2
He withdraws. This time his Acrobatics work, and you get no AoO.
He stops and readies an attack to hit you when you come in range.
You advance or charge.
He neutralizes your one attack, and takes his AoO, and also takes his readied action.
4:1 for attacks. You're going to die.

If you don't close to attack, you have to try ranged combat. which, if you are a Melee combatant, isn't likely to work at all. If you do something like draw a bow, you're just setting yourself up for a sundered weapon.

-------------
The only 'solutions' I'm seeing here, aren't. A grapple isn't likely to work unless you have a devoted grapple fiend, and even then Free Action renders it useless. CMD's are generally extremely high for fighting types, especially a high dex build like a Crane should be. And if you use a weapon, he can parry it, which relegates you to your lowest bonus attacks.

This is considerably more powerful then Deflect Arrows, because a Ranged attacker can always take a full attack just by standing still and shooting/throwing. A Melee does not have that option.

The only options I'm seeing are Archetypes (which I already mentioned, multiple attacks as a standard action) and specific attack-generating builds which tend to be class specific (CAGM is a rage power, it doesn't help a ranger out at all).

Is there a FEAT option to enable a character like this to be beat in melee? i.e does one of the other 'martial art trees' have something to neutralize it? Like, maybe they finally allowed Pounce as a feat instead of an archetype ability...

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Ravingdork wrote:
The nerfs to Spring Attack and Vital Strike completely DESTROYED the already subpar mobility builds. If anything, the Crane Style feats make mobility builds somewhat viable again.

Actually, I'd go the other way. Crane style completely destroys the viability of a Vital Strike build, because if you can only launch one attack, you'll never hit the Crane.

:)

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

You never answered that argument.

Are you saying an archer must enchant his bow AND his bowstring to be protected from sundering by a lesser enchanted weapon?


Aelryinth wrote:
Is there a FEAT option to enable a character like this to be beat in melee? i.e does one of the other 'martial art trees' have something to neutralize it? Like, maybe they finally allowed Pounce as a feat instead of an archetype ability...

There doesn't need to be. Thrown/projectile weapons get past it, multiple attacks get past it, magic gets past it, etc.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

ruemere wrote:

Just read and reread Crane style feat chain. It's no biggie. In a straight fight you just ask a buddy to help you flank. And while in duel use a maneuver, eating an AoO if necessary... Grapple, Trip and Net are your friends.

Regards,
Ruemere

If you use a manuver, and get hit with an AoO, the manuver auto-fails before you get to check CMD. Exactly how many times can you do that, before you're dead?

"Let someone else help me fight him" seems the consensus opinion here, because unfortunately not every build can be a multi-attack on standard action, or a Robilar's variant.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

TriOmegaZero wrote:

You never answered that argument.

Are you saying an archer must enchant his bow AND his bowstring to be protected from sundering by a lesser enchanted weapon?

Pretty much. Just like you'd have to enchant your locking gauntlet to not be sundered when it's attached to your +5 sword.

As someone else noted above, getting your bowstring cut is waaaay better then having your bow smashed to peices.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Matt Stich wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Is there a FEAT option to enable a character like this to be beat in melee? i.e does one of the other 'martial art trees' have something to neutralize it? Like, maybe they finally allowed Pounce as a feat instead of an archetype ability...
There doesn't need to be. Thrown/projectile weapons get past it, multiple attacks get past it, magic gets past it, etc.

If you go to the beginning post, I specifically said MELEE solutions, not ranged attacks or magic, thanks.

Which becomes "The solution is he's invincible in Melee, kill him with something else."

That's not a solution, it's a cop-out.

===Aelryinth


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Aelryinth wrote:
Matt Stich wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Is there a FEAT option to enable a character like this to be beat in melee? i.e does one of the other 'martial art trees' have something to neutralize it? Like, maybe they finally allowed Pounce as a feat instead of an archetype ability...
There doesn't need to be. Thrown/projectile weapons get past it, multiple attacks get past it, magic gets past it, etc.

If you go to the beginning post, I specifically said MELEE solutions, not ranged attacks or magic, thanks.

Which becomes "The solution is he's invincible in Melee, kill him with something else."

That's not a solution, it's a cop-out.

===Aelryinth

No, it's definitely a solution. If one thing doesn't work, use something else.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

No, it's a cop-out. I specifically asked for viable Melee solutions, potentially usable by any class, and not just specific archetypes.

You're basically saying "Don't use Melee." Hence, cop-out.

==Aelryinth


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Defensive fighting doesn't start until he attacks. "You can choose to fight defensively when attacking."

Meanwhile, you seem to be asking for ONE feat to counter something which takes SIX feats to do. A human fighter, the build with the most feats in the game, would be using up just under 1/3 of the feats he will ever get to pull this off. For any other class, it's even more of an investment.

If an archer was standing on top of a cliff, across a chasm, raining arrows down on the party, would it be a cop-out to suggest that other archery and spell-slinging might be a more optimal way of dealing with him than the fighter trying to leap the chasm and climb the cliff to get into melee? No, of course not. Sometimes, ranged combat is a better option than melee combat. Sometimes, any given skill is at a disadvantage, and others are a better solution to the problem. That's why adventurers normally travel in parties.


Aelryinth wrote:

No, it's a cop-out. I specifically asked for viable Melee solutions, potentially usable by any class, and not just specific archetypes.

You're basically saying "Don't use Melee." Hence, cop-out.

==Aelryinth

Pretty much all I have to do is make sure I'm right next to you when your turn begins. I move to you and attack, triggering crane. You can't spring attack me because I'm right next to you and spring attack only doesn't provoke from the target of your attack. So you move away from me and provoke. I'll grapple you, attack you, doesn't matter because you can't deflect my next attack because Crane has already triggered this turn.


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Aelryinth wrote:
ruemere wrote:

Just read and reread Crane style feat chain. It's no biggie. In a straight fight you just ask a buddy to help you flank. And while in duel use a maneuver, eating an AoO if necessary... Grapple, Trip and Net are your friends.

Regards,
Ruemere

If you use a maneuver, and get hit with an AoO, the maneuver auto-fails before you get to check CMD. Exactly how many times can you do that, before you're dead?

"Let someone else help me fight him" seems the consensus opinion here, because unfortunately not every build can be a multi-attack on standard action, or a Robilar's variant.

AoO does not negate a maneuver, it merely applies a penalty:

If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll).

The fighter is likely to have decent AC, so eating up an AoO is not going to be an issue. All he needs to do, is to manage to grapple or trip Monk once, afterwards, it is a matter of maintaining the grapple until the fighter gets +5 bonus for successful grappling.
Moreover, with the amount of feats Monk needs to pull off Crane chain style, he is unlikely to have Combat Reflexes, so purposefully striding around the Monk (or otherwise provoking him to use up his sole AoO) should do wonders for subsequent maneuver.
Of course, if the said Monk decides NOT TO use an AoO, the fighter is free to walk around the Monk and focus on more interesting activities.

Monk's CMD is not likely to be THAT high. Monks suffer from MAD, so for the same amount of points, they need to invest into 3-4 stats (Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom and Constitution), while fighters do fine with merely two (Strength and Constitution).
With decent builds (i.e. a warrior type who spares a feat for a maneuver) Barbarians can easily reach 40s or 50s on their maneuver check, while Fighters can invest some of their weapon training bonuses into weapons with trip ability benefiting from weapon training bonuses.

Other options: trip with reach weapon. Or carry a whip and let the Monk try to AoO from the distance of 15 feet.

Finally, I've seen similar stuff in my WFRP campaign (dodge skill allowed to trade one's attacks for ability checks to negate attacks - every other warrior played an Elf to get near 90% chance to avoid attacks) and it did not break the game.

Regards,
Ruemere

Sovereign Court

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Aelryinth wrote:

If you go to the beginning post, I specifically said MELEE solutions, not ranged attacks or magic, thanks.

Which becomes "The solution is he's invincible in Melee, kill him with something else."

That's not a solution, it's a cop-out.

===Aelryinth

OMG!!! Antimagic field is so broken!!!! There's no magical solution to it!!!!


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As Ruemere points out, Maneuvers don`t automatically fail from suffering an AoO while you are making them.
Also, I`m pretty sure that by RAW, ALL AoO`s triggered by a maneuver attack don`t apply their DMG to increase the CMD...
Only the AoO from not having the Improved Maneuver Feat has that feature.
I was confused about the intent of that for some time (and still am to some extent, since Paizo never answered my question), but I don`t see how you can read the RAW otherwise.

There are a few abilities like Pugilist Barbarian get`s vs. Grapples,
which possibly suggest that the AoO they allow is specifically the same AoO as from non-Improved Maneuvers (and thus allow DMG to CMD), but for general AoO`s, that`s not the case.
(and even in the case of the Pugilist ability, since it`s also increasing the CMD by 2, I suspect that isn`t the intent, though both DMG+2 COULD techincally be applied)

The Exchange

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Isn't Spring Attack it's own full-round action these days, meaning you can't fight defensively (the option for which is only available for a standard action or a full-attack action) while using it?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ProfPotts wrote:
Isn't Spring Attack it's own full-round action these days, meaning you can't fight defensively (the option for which is only available for a standard action or a full-attack action) while using it?

I hadn't thought of that. You just might be right.

BOOH for mobility nerfs!

Scarab Sages

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ProfPotts wrote:
Isn't Spring Attack it's own full-round action these days, meaning you can't fight defensively (the option for which is only available for a standard action or a full-attack action) while using it?

HAHAHHAHA! Oh, how did I miss that! You are correct. Spring attack is a full round action. You can't fight defensively or total defense and still spring attack.

I delcare this thread officially over. Crane attack is useful, but no more than that, as it is of limited utility. Bow strings do not exist in the game, cannot be sundered and do not need to be enchanted seperately. A locking gauntket IS NOT part of a sword. That's why they have a seperate entry in the equipment list. So many silly arguments slain. YAY logic!


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We may have another problem though guys, i just found this crazy spell called fly, it actually lets me never get attacked by a melee until like level 9! (When fighters can theoretically get boots of flying) Waaay more op then crane style.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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ProfPotts wrote:
Isn't Spring Attack it's own full-round action these days, meaning you can't fight defensively (the option for which is only available for a standard action or a full-attack action) while using it?

Well played, ProfPotts. Well played.


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Shadow_of_death wrote:
We may have another problem though guys, i just found this crazy spell called fly, it actually lets me never get attacked by a melee until like level 9! (When fighters can theoretically get boots of flying) Waaay more op then crane style.

I call for this to be banned/nerfed/erratad/rewritten/shot/stabbed/clubbed/ etc. Who's with me?


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Aelryinth wrote:

No, it's a cop-out. I specifically asked for viable Melee solutions, potentially usable by any class, and not just specific archetypes.

You're basically saying "Don't use Melee." Hence, cop-out.

==Aelryinth

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING.

There, I used caps, maybe that will get your attention. Its one feat with few prerequisites and it lets you make an offhand attack at your highest base attack bonus -2. Or you can do so without the feat for -4/-4 which is not too much in the scheme of things, crane boy is still eating a -2 to hit you with style at 5th level.

That or you can throw your primary melee weapon. Or fight defensively, or total defense action and ignore him. Or delay till he ends his turn next to you and full attack if he is too far away. Or you could get pounce. Or be an alchemist with feral mutagen and get 3 attacks at your highest BAB, or be a Barbarian or Sorcerer and get two claw attacks at your highest base attack bonus, or be a magus and attack with your one handed weapon and one spell.

Thats just a few of the things I can think of off the top of my head. There are plenty of other melee options.

satisfied?

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
underling wrote:
ProfPotts wrote:
Isn't Spring Attack it's own full-round action these days, meaning you can't fight defensively (the option for which is only available for a standard action or a full-attack action) while using it?

HAHAHHAHA! Oh, how did I miss that! You are correct. Spring attack is a full round action. You can't fight defensively or total defense and still spring attack.

I delcare this thread officially over. Crane attack is useful, but no more than that, as it is of limited utility. Bow strings do not exist in the game, cannot be sundered and do not need to be enchanted seperately. A locking gauntket IS NOT part of a sword. That's why they have a seperate entry in the equipment list. So many silly arguments slain. YAY logic!

PRD wrote:

Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC for the same round.

...

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

Fighting Defensively isn't any kind of action, it is a modifier to the kind of action you are using, so the use of Standard Action/Full-Round Action in the above quotes refer at the action you can use in conjunction with the "modifier" Fighting Defensively.

The ROI is that you can use Fighting Defensively only if you are using some kind of attack action and Spring Attack include an attack action.

Shadow_of_death wrote:
We may have another problem though guys, i just found this crazy spell called fly, it actually lets me never get attacked by a melee until like level 9! (When fighters can theoretically get boots of flying) Waaay more op then crane style.

Potion of fly, 750 gp. Well within WBL at level 5.

Archomedes wrote:


TWO WEAPON FIGHTING.

That or you can throw your primary melee weapon.

As it has been pointed out already several times in the thread, you don't get multiple attacks with two weapon fighting when moving unless you have the right archetype.

Throwing weapons have their set of problems: your ammunitions are limited, if you use returning weapons to circumvent the ammunition limits you can't move (the weapon return to the location from which you have thrown it at the start of the next round) and you can catch at most 2 returning weapons (one for each free hand).

Missile weapons are a better option.

Aelryinth is over-blowing the efficacy of the feat, but it is hardly a weak feat.


So, if what you said is right, then full-round action and full-attack action are interchangeable terms for fighting yes?

I mostly play spellcasters, so I'm mostly familiar with the split with full-round action and 1 round casting.

Edited for clarity.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Swivl wrote:

So, if what you said is right, then full-round action and full-attack action are interchangeable terms for fighting yes?

I mostly play spellcasters, so I'm mostly familiar with the split with full-round action and 1 round casting.

Edited for clarity.

Not exactly. Normally full attacks require a full round action (there are exceptions with specific feats/powers) but the two terms aren't fully interchangeable.

What I am saying is that for simplicity the descriptions of fighting defensively speak only of using it with a standard attack or a full attack, but that by RAI it should be usable with any attack action [barring explicit exceptions].

ProfPotts feel that the rule is exclusive,

ProfPotts wrote:
Isn't Spring Attack it's own full-round action these days, meaning you can't fight defensively (the option for which is only available for a standard action or a full-attack action) while using it?

while I feel the defensive combat option can work with all form ot attack action.

RAW he is right, RAI, I really doubt it.

Liberty's Edge

Oddly, through this whole thread I cannot get the image of this overpowered monk leaping around and able to deflect strong hard swinging Greatswords being stopped by his pants being pulled down (via Dirty Trick). Just an image that tickled me.

I like this Crane stance, it seems good. I am struggling to see the overpoweredness of it though. I mean, the OP is talking about a specific situation of a duel. Great, so in one situation the monk Crane stance is amazing. Simple solution: Don’t duel the monk. I mean in any other situation the ability is nice but nothing awesome. For a start, in a typical battle there are friends to help, but more importantly, a Spring Attack Monk is something you would ignore and get on with killing the dangerous enemy – the monk leaps around getting his one hit in while a Fighter with one attack is hitting much harder thanks to better Str. Kill everything else, gang up on the monk.

Even the duel situation is not that amazing against plenty of classes:
Barbarian – covered earlier, they have ways to deal with it

Ranger – likely very good with a bow, also has some spells, also a pet and possible FE Humans. If he is not pin cushioning the Monk then in melee he gets his attack and the pet (Boon Companion is popular so that with flanking bonus makes it pretty good, add FE and it cannot be ignored)

Casters – Plenty of spells to deal with a monk (yes the monk has good saves, but still leaves plenty of options)

Fighter – lots of Feats, very likely good at one or two manoeuvres

Ninja – Vanishing Trick, Sneak Attack Damage

A Paladin and Rogue would have the hardest time against the monk – but then the Rogue is a poor duelling option. The Paladin would only be duelling if the Monk was evil and that gives extra AC, Hit and Damage so any hits he does make will hurt.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Just joining the thread, so thank you Prof Potts for catching that full round action thing. I caught it myself this morning.

Spring Attack = Full Round Action

Fight Defensively = Standard Action.

So Monk Spring attacks, Fighter charges monk gets slammed. *shrug*

Looks like for a lot of feat investment, the monk can become a better stand and fight guy. No biggy.

Contributor

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm lazy, so here's a crane character I built prior to this discussion. It's not a spring attacker, but that's as easy as giving up critical focus for spring attack.

A really intriguing character build

Is there any chance that you could post a few snapshots of this character at lower levels? I kind of really want to steal this for something.

Also, to contribute to the current discussion:

Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action
You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.


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Aelryinth wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:

You never answered that argument.

Are you saying an archer must enchant his bow AND his bowstring to be protected from sundering by a lesser enchanted weapon?

Pretty much. Just like you'd have to enchant your locking gauntlet to not be sundered when it's attached to your +5 sword.

As someone else noted above, getting your bowstring cut is waaaay better then having your bow smashed to peices.

==Aelryinth

What's the cost for enchanting a bowstring? It's not on any weapon tables, so it's not enchanted as a weapon. It's not on any armor tables, so it's not enchanted as armor. It's not a scroll, wand, staff, ring, rod, or potion. That leaves mundane items (which are either alchemical or entirely mundane) or wondrous items.

I would hope we could all agree that bowstrings are not alchemical items. That leaves mundane item for a non-magical bowstring and wondrous item for magical bowstring. That seems pretty reasonable, and opens the door for specificly magical bowstrings which add something to the bow when used. However, wondrous items have no set cost formulas, so we have no idea how much it would cost to create one, and we have no examples to go from. So again, we still have no idea how much it would cost to buy a new bowstring and have it enchanted.

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