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It's not that I don't like the technique, as a tactic it's great...it's just got no counter that I can see in melee.
I like the screwball notion that everything has to have a melee counter.
It's cute and naive.
However barring that I will share several means of breaking this 'combo':
1. Step up and strike.
2. Stand still.
3. Grappling.
OR I can simply stand beside you; you can't spring attack if you aren't moving at least 10 feet before your attack. All I have to do to stop you spring attacking is stand beside you by the end of the round.
C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER!
Without the spring attack the rest simply falls apart.
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OR I can simply stand beside you; you can't spring attack if you aren't moving at least 10 feet before your attack. All I have to do to stop you spring attacking is stand beside you by the end of the round.
That one doesn't work - he attacks you once, then moves away, and uses crane to negate the AoO. At that point he doesn't need to spring attack. It's still equally (in)effective, though.
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That one doesn't work - he attacks you once, then moves away, and uses crane to negate the AoO. At that point he doesn't need to spring attack. It's still equally (in)effective, though.
OR I can simply stand beside you; you can't spring attack if you aren't moving at least 10 feet before your attack. All I have to do to stop you spring attacking is stand beside you by the end of the round.
It prevents his spring attacking and makes him use up the negation on an AoO which means I'm still going to get to attack on my turn, meaning 2 attacks a round of which he can only negate 1 -- so it does work.
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It prevents his spring attacking and makes him use up the negation on an AoO which means I'm still going to get to attack on my turn, meaning 2 attacks a round of which he can only negate 1 -- so it does work.That one doesn't work - he attacks you once, then moves away, and uses crane to negate the AoO. At that point he doesn't need to spring attack. It's still equally (in)effective, though.
OR I can simply stand beside you; you can't spring attack if you aren't moving at least 10 feet before your attack. All I have to do to stop you spring attacking is stand beside you by the end of the round.
The monk could get around that by withdrawing (so he doesn't provoke and thus doesn't use his block) or running (in which case you can't catch up to him, because he's a monk). Neither of which would allow him to also attack you, though, so stalemate again.
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What about hold person? This theoretical character put so much into offense his saves can't be that high. Magic him into submission
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I liked the boar style, it lest you do piercing and slashing damage!
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Hmmm...let's break this down by combat rounds, and actions within them. We'll assume for the sake of argument that the fighter isn't smart enough to change his tactics (because, hey, something's gotta be a dump stat, and it might as well be INT).
Round 1, Manny the Monk: Monk wins initiative, and spring attacks the (presumably) fighter. He hits for, oh, 10 damage. He's now several feet away. Doesn't matter how far, because he's in charge range.
Round 1, Freddy the Fighter: Charge attack at Manny (negated by Crane).
Round 2, Manny: Full attack for 15 damage (man, that fighter's hard to hit, what with all that armor and stuff!), then provoke an AoA moving away for 15 damage (can't be negated because Manny's already used his Crane, and it's not his turn again yet).
Round 2, Freddy: Charge attack at Manny (negated by Crane).
Round 3, Manny: Full attack for 12 damage (criminy dutch, what's this guy's AC? Oh, right; he's a fighter. Probably around 33. Manny needs a 19 or 20 just to hit him), then provoke an AoA moving away for another 15 damage.
Round 3, Freddy: Charge attack at Manny (negated by Crane).
Lather, rinse, repeat. Unless the monk wins initiative, rolls REALLY well, and has more hit points than the fighter (yeah, right), he's gonna lose.
It's even worse if Freddy chooses to try a trip attack when Manny moves away, because then Manny's never even gonna get up.
You really mean 'move out of threatened area and negate with Acrobatics', right, thus provoking no AoO and the FIghter still can't do anything? And then withdrawing around cover if possible, to minimize a charge and reduce movement to a standard action at best? Or, hey, LET him charge...-2 AC always helps.
It's not like Thicket of Blades exists in PF. Although, hmm, would combat patrol work? I think it only increases the radius you threaten for movement...
And if the average fighter has a 30 AC at level 10, I'm pretty sure a rival Crane could scratch up a TH bonus better then +11 :) A Crane Fighter would be at a bare minimum of +20ish or so, no?
===
As for the bowstring, I don't consider it any more 'integral' to the bow then a locking gauntlet is to the sword it's attached to, or the arrow that's fit to it. I'd give it the CMD of the bow to be hit, but if you're saying the string as hard to snap as the wooden bow, then the wooden haft of an axe must be as hard as the steel head!
i.e. you can attach any suitable bowstring, and it'll work fine, the magic is the bow. Now, if you could only attach ENCHANTED and specially prepared bowstrings, I'd acknowledge the point.
===Aelryinth
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As for the bowstring, I don't consider it any more 'integral' to the bow then a locking gauntlet is to the sword it's attached to, or the arrow that's fit to it. I'd give it the CMD of the bow to be hit, but if you're saying the string as hard to snap as the wooden bow, then the wooden haft of an axe must be as hard as the steel head!
Why, yes, it absolutely is.
There are NO RULES WHATSOEVER which make any given part of a weapon easier to sunder than the rest. The bowstring is part of the bow, the haft is part of the axe. In fact, in D&D, bowstrings effectively do not *exist*. There is no entry for them on any item chart. They have no statistics. There are absolutely no mechanics relating to bowstrings. A bow fires arrows, a broken bow fires them at penalty, and if the bow is reduced to 0 HP it stops working. No string involved. That's the bare RAW.
To be slightly more serious: the magic is doubtlessly in the wood of the bow, but the string takes on the magic of the bow as surely as any arrow nocked to it.
I see. You're trying to defend the magic of bowstrings by claiming bowstrings don't exist? :) You're then confusing me...axe-hafts don't exist either. Nor do hammer handles. Oh, oh, sword-hilts and pommelguards don't exist separately!
:) That's not working!
There's nothing in the rules that defends a bowstring being as hard to damage as the bow it's attached to...like the locking gauntlet effect I'd managed above. So, you're presuming a House Rule at least as much as I am...but I can at least look at other rules that don't support the strings being magical (locking gauntlet) and being able to hit the weakest part of a bow (sundering an axe).
==Aelryinth
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Hmm, now your fighter (he's not a monk, after all; that's fine) is going to have enough ranks in acrobatics (he's got nothing better to spend his damned-few skill points on, right?) to beat my CMD and get away - and still have a high enough AC to stand up to me? Pfft. Also, if you're moving away behind cover, I'll just lob a tanglefoot bag at you (and don't tell me I can't see you; if so, you can't see me and I've got all sorts of things I can do), then wander over and full attack while you're hobbling about.
There's nothing in the rules that defends a bowstring being as hard to damage as the bow it's attached to...
Really? You're going there? Okay, then Freddy Fighter's gonna cast meteor swarm at you, because there's nothing in the rules that specifically says a 10th-level fighter can't cast it. And don't say 'That's silly; everyone knows fighters can't cast spells,' because there's NOT ONE place in the rules that specifically says '10th-level fighters cannot cast meteor swarm.' Sheesh.
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I see. You're trying to defend the magic of bowstrings by claiming bowstrings don't exist? :) You're then confusing me...axe-hafts don't exist either. Nor do hammer handles. Oh, oh, sword-hilts and pommelguards don't exist separately!
That is, in fact, exactly correct. An axe haft is part of an axe. A hammer handle is part of a hammer. A sword hilt is part of a sword. So's the pommel guard. None of them exist separately for the purposes of sundering. An attack against any of them is a Sunder attempt against the item that they are part of, using the hardness and HP of that item
There's nothing in the rules that defends a bowstring being as hard to damage as the bow it's attached to...like the locking gauntlet effect I'd managed above. So, you're presuming a House Rule at least as much as I am...but I can at least look at other rules that don't support the strings being magical (locking gauntlet) and being able to hit the weakest part of a bow (sundering an axe).
==Aelryinth
There are no rules for attacking parts of an item separately from the item itself. Ergo, it cannot be done. That's the rules backing up my point. The burden of proof is on you, to show that a rule exists.
A locked gauntlet is a separate item, with its own statistics. A bowstring, as far as the rules show, or even acknowledge its existence is a part of a bow.
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The monk could get around that by withdrawing (so he doesn't provoke and thus doesn't use his block) or running (in which case you can't catch up to him, because he's a monk). Neither of which would allow him to also attack you, though, so stalemate again.It prevents his spring attacking and makes him use up the negation on an AoO which means I'm still going to get to attack on my turn, meaning 2 attacks a round of which he can only negate 1 -- so it does work.That one doesn't work - he attacks you once, then moves away, and uses crane to negate the AoO. At that point he doesn't need to spring attack. It's still equally (in)effective, though.
OR I can simply stand beside you; you can't spring attack if you aren't moving at least 10 feet before your attack. All I have to do to stop you spring attacking is stand beside you by the end of the round.
Withdrawing won't allow him to fight defensively though so I can hit him with a standard attack. If he runs -- well I win with the AoO and the fact he's running away.
Also Acrobatics -- well that's not going to be easy either -- After all the DC is 10+ the target's CMD... which fighters tend to have in spades... the best you can hope for in such a case is 50/50 chance of success, any round you fail I get to hit you twice -- putting me beyond the capabilities of crane style... again.
Honestly it's pathetic how easy it is to get around.
Heaven forbid I do something to cause you to lose your dex bonus too -- after all if that happens your doubly screwed, as you lose crane technique and of course your dex bonus and dodge bonuses.
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Also, including the previous argument and just to remember to the people saying you could sunder a bowstring so it's easier to do it than on the wood of a bow, I'll gladly add that if you look into the "Damaging Objects" rules, you'll see something funny.
Weapon or Shield Hardness Hit Points
Light blade 10 2
One-handed blade 10 5
Two-handed blade 10 10
Light metal-hafted weapon 10 10
One-handed metal-hafted weapon 10 20
Light hafted weapon 5 2
One-handed hafted weapon 5 5
Two-handed hafted weapon 5 10
Projectile weapon 5 5
Weapons ALREADY have hardness and hit points based on their structure.
Sundering a one-handed hafted weapon is easier than sundering a metal hafted one. Saying you can cut a bowstring that doesn't even exist conforming to the rules is pretending the system isn't actually already including these kind of structural weaknesses into the rules ; when they totally are.
The rules -already- assume you are hitting the weak point when trying to sunder a weapon, how you fluff the "broken" part is up to you.
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projectile weapon 5 5 absolutely no mention of what part of the weapon you are sundering, just what type of weapon.
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If I take my +5 bow string, and put it on my +5 bow, can I shoot +10 arrows? ;P
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If I take my +5 bow string, and put it on my +5 bow, can I shoot +10 arrows? ;P
Sure however every enemy group now has ninja's who ready actions to sunder your nonmagical arrow whenever you draw back the bow.
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Bah, you can have +15 arrows (tip, shaft and flechetts het their own echantment), with the bow it gets whopping +25 attack ;)
And you still don't even near my every-part-enchanted crossbow Ravingdork :D
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Bah, you can have +15 arrows (tip, shaft and flechetts het their own echantment), with the bow it gets whopping +25 attack ;)
And you still don't even near my every-part-enchanted crossbow Ravingdork :D
Every +5 link in my spiked chain dominates ALL!!! :D
The Pouncing Barbarian has the only melee resort to the Crane technique, as I noted before...the ability to move and make a full attack, effectively 'outrunning' the ability to deflect. Such a duel would be far more even, unless a spring attacking Crane duelist had some cover from straight-line charges (such as being able to move behind cover or difficult terrain to stop a charge).The only other alternative is the Robilar's Gambit...
or a first lvl summoner, claw, claw, bite + lance with pounce...
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Every +5 link in my spiked chain dominates ALL!!! :DBah, you can have +15 arrows (tip, shaft and flechetts het their own echantment), with the bow it gets whopping +25 attack ;)
And you still don't even near my every-part-enchanted crossbow Ravingdork :D
*Retreats to craft a +5 shotgun*
I've always considered that when the other side of an argument resorts to mockery and hyperbole that they've acknowledged they've lost, so no skin. And when others chime in with their opinions on posters without contributing to the discussion, they are acknowledging it, too.
So, I love it. The best defense that you can't cut a bowstring is that bowstrings DO NOT EXIST. What a WONDERFUL argument. That sure makes sense!
As for bringing in the devs, my gut feeling is they'd go 'sure, go ahead.' JJ tends to do that when you ask him something.
And a 3 foot long taut string is a Fine object? I think you have your view of a fine object somewhat skewed. Maybe if I'm trying to cut it along the perfectly vertical axis...but hitting a bowstring isn't going to be harder then hitting the edge of a door as far as size goes. Do you have problems swatting at a yardstick?
As for Acrobatics, 50/50 success means you whiff half the time for NO damage. You're also forgetting that a SPring attacker already has Mobility and Dodge...so you're swinging at a massive penalty with your AoO even if you DO get one.
Your moving tactic doesn't work, either. Withdraw action by Crane, no AoO. Removes and waits for you. You advance, take a swing, parried, AoO back at you.
You, no damage. Crane, AoO. 0:1.
Crane then withdraws again on his turn. This is you doing absolutely no damage and him getting an attack/rd.
If he wants to get two attacks a round, he can simply move away, Acrobatics = 50% chance of drawing an AoO that has an increased miss chance due to Mobility, if Acrobatics does fail he can choose to parry and AoO back, then he simply readies an action to hit you as you close in on your turn to get his second attack when you take your one. If his Acrobatics worked, your one attack is instead parried and he gets his AoO then.
Him, two attacks, you, none or one. And this scenario is at his choice, not yours.
So the ratio is now 4 attacks to 1, approximately, over the course of two rounds, one round Acrobatics works, the other it doesn't, ignoring Mobility.
This is not damage mitigation or AC shenanigans...this is the complete neutralizing of an attack, without a roll or miss chance. Unless you can do multiple attacks with a standard action, there's no way around this. Miss chances have long been argued as more powerful then AC...well, this is 'miss absolutely', not 'miss chance'.
Feinting to make the Crane lose his Dex has maybe a 50% chance of success. That takes your odds from 0:1 to 1:2...you're still on the losing end of this deal. He's still not going to stand there and give you a full attack, and you're also wasting actions on the feint.
If there something in UC which specifically makes blows unparryable, or something? There has to be a counter to this technique somehow, or another fighting style that can match it. We can overcome miss chances...is there something to overcome parries?
==Aelryinth
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I removed a couple posts. Please don't defame other posters.
Also, sometimes its good to learn when to walk away from an argument.
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So, I love it. The best defense that you can't cut a bowstring is that bowstrings DO NOT EXIST. What a WONDERFUL argument. That sure makes sense!
Actually, the other argument was "is there a way to enchant the bowstring to make it +5 and require a +5 weapon for sundering? if not, then what is the purpose of the 'weapon must have enhancement equal or higher to sunder' rule?"
Are you really saying an archer must enchant his bow TWICE to get protection from sundering?
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I've always considered that when the other side of an argument resorts to mockery and hyperbole that they've acknowledged they've lost, so no skin. And when others chime in with their opinions on posters without contributing to the discussion, they are acknowledging it, too.
So, I love it. The best defense that you can't cut a bowstring is that bowstrings DO NOT EXIST. What a WONDERFUL argument. That sure makes sense!
As for bringing in the devs, my gut feeling is they'd go 'sure, go ahead.' JJ tends to do that when you ask him something.
And a 3 foot long taut string is a Fine object? I think you have your view of a fine object somewhat skewed. Maybe if I'm trying to cut it along the perfectly vertical axis...but hitting a bowstring isn't going to be harder then hitting the edge of a door as far as size goes. Do you have problems swatting at a yardstick?
As for Acrobatics, 50/50 success means you whiff half the time for NO damage. You're also forgetting that a SPring attacker already has Mobility and Dodge...so you're swinging at a massive penalty with your AoO even if you DO get one.
Your moving tactic doesn't work, either. Withdraw action by Crane, no AoO. Removes and waits for you. You advance, take a swing, parried, AoO back at you.
You, no damage. Crane, AoO. 0:1.
Crane then withdraws again on his turn. This is you doing absolutely no damage and him getting an attack/rd.
If he wants to get two attacks a round, he can simply move away, Acrobatics = 50% chance of drawing an AoO that has an increased miss chance due to Mobility, if Acrobatics does fail he can choose to parry and AoO back, then he simply readies an action to hit you as you close in on your turn to get his second attack when you take your one. If his Acrobatics worked, your one attack is instead parried and he gets his AoO then.
Him, two attacks, you, none or one. And this scenario is at his choice, not yours.
So the ratio is now 4 attacks to 1, approximately, over the course of two rounds, one round Acrobatics works,...
If he withdraws, he was not fighting defensively, and so he cannot parry. Fighting defensively requires you to make an attack, and Total Defense eats up your standard action. In neither case can you withdraw.
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Ignoring the rules doesn't make them go away Aelryinth.
Withdraw -- No AoO NO FIGHTING DEFENSIVELY means NO CRANE STYLE. Which of course means I hit the monk. I'm not taking a penalty to hit since I'll be attacking on my turn which you can't block, since you didn't attack (due to withdrawing) which of course means you can't be fighting defensively.
So it's:
Withdraw Crane damage 0: Fighter attacks 1
NO parry No counterattack just losing.
If he fails the acrobatics he's getting an AoO which will eat up his parry (and being that he has mobility it makes it a great time to be a fighter -- I can still hit him without any trouble at all).
If he manages his acrobatics... I either ready a trip attack for when he spring attacks, or grapple... or dirty trick. Which he can't parry, since it's not an attack -- he springs, I trip/grapple/dirty trick he's screwed.
All in all it's simply not a good method of being 'invulnerable' namely because it doesn't work.
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Crane Wing lets you deflect one melee weapon attack per round.
You can make an offhand attack with your gauntlet, your shield or your backup weapon if you have to duel such an opponent.
There is such a thing as two weapon fighting, you know.
Edit: to clarify, this is how you hit a crane style user at level 5, before access to iterative attacks.
Ignoring the rules doesn't make them go away Aelryinth.
Withdraw -- No AoO NO FIGHTING DEFENSIVELY means NO CRANE STYLE. Which of course means I hit the monk. I'm not taking a penalty to hit since I'll be attacking on my turn which you can't block, since you didn't attack (due to withdrawing) which of course means you can't be fighting defensively.
So it's:
Withdraw Crane damage 0: Fighter attacks 1
NO parry No counterattack just losing.
If he fails the acrobatics he's getting an AoO which will eat up his parry (and being that he has mobility it makes it a great time to be a fighter -- I can still hit him without any trouble at all).
If he manages his acrobatics... I either ready a trip attack for when he spring attacks, or grapple... or dirty trick. Which he can't parry, since it's not an attack -- he springs, I trip/grapple/dirty trick he's screwed.
All in all it's simply not a good method of being 'invulnerable' namely because it doesn't work.
So, no withdrawing possible.
Ah! So basically, he's on the defensive fighting thing, where he has a +7 AC bonus (or higher, from Traits) against your AoO, and a straight out 50% miss chance for the AoO from Acrobatics, and STILL gets to parry!
So, we're talking 4 attacks for the Crane to 1 to you...AT BEST. And your AoO attack is at -7 to hit from mobility and defensive fighting...his on you is at -1, I believe? So the odds are that he withdraws, you whiff by Acrobatics or by Mobility, and he's got 2 attacks and that parry waiting for you when you advance.
It might well be a great time to be a fighter, but the odds are you're still going to swing and miss.
==Aelryinth
Crane Wing lets you deflect one melee weapon attack per round.
You can make an offhand attack with your gauntlet, your shield or your backup weapon if you have to duel such an opponent.
There is such a thing as two weapon fighting, you know.
Edit: to clarify, this is how you hit a crane style user at level 5, before access to iterative attacks.
No. The problem here is you need a full attack action to hit the Crane, and the Crane is moving around and limiting you to standard actions, i.e. one swing.
Unless you've a way of dealing out multiple swings on a standard action, you're in trouble.
I should also like to point out that the simple ability to parry away your BEST attack in an exchange of full attacks, and then generate an extra attack for himself, caters nicely to the Crane technique if he doesn't want to do the 'float like a butterfly' scenario. You lose your attack most likely to hit, and he gets one extremely likely to hit, which skews the damage exchange nicely.
==Aelryinth
I'm afraid I don't believe that a trip ATTACK, grapple ATTACK, or disarm ATTACK against CMD is not considered an attack for the parry ability. Is there clarification on this point? Anything which affects success on the attack or defense adds to CMB or CMD, I'd think that deflecting such things entirely would work perfectly fine.
It looks like you're trying to erect an artificial wall where none exists.
==Aelryinth
Two Weapon Fighter archetype. And I bet I'm not the only person who houserules that 'attack with both weapons as a standard action' ability he gets into part and parcel of two weapon fighting.
I think you overestimate the monk's ability to hit the fully armored fighter he's up against, and underestimate the fighter's ability to hit his AC. Assuming RAW, the monk has to use his native 3/4 BAB on all his attack rolls, instead of the full BAB he can get when standing still, an effective -2 or -3 penalty, and is taking a further -1 for fighting defensively; meanwhile the fighter will have gained weapon training a few times and probably has Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus. The monk is hitting less often than you think, and the fighter has a good chance of hitting on any attack of opportunity provoked.
If the monk provokes an attack of opportunity, and it hits, that uses up his Crane Wing for the round; on the fighter's turn, he charges and smears the monk with his much greater damage output--Weapon Training, Weapon Specialization, much greater strength than the monk can feasibly have, it all adds up.
And that's assuming the monk's tangling with a fighter. A barbarian could force the monk to provoke the first time he tried to start the tactic. If the monk ever tried to withdraw, the barbarian could use No Escape, stay with the monk, and drop him with a full attack. Ground Breaker could make it difficult for the monk to get in to attack. Could use Come and Get Me to force the monk to provoke non-movement related AoOs.
I'm afraid I don't believe that a trip ATTACK, grapple ATTACK, or disarm ATTACK against CMD is not considered an attack for the parry ability. Is there clarification on this point? Anything which affects success on the attack or defense adds to CMB or CMD, I'd think that deflecting such things entirely would work perfectly fine.
It looks like you're trying to erect an artificial wall where none exists.
==Aelryinth
No, the best arguments against you are ones you seem to be missing the point on. The reason they point out that bowstrings don't exist is that for all intents and purposes of the game they don't. That means is since PF is silent, then it's not part of the game. What we can determine with what rules we have, is that there is no way that a bowstring is separate from a bow, so that's what we say.
They go so far out in the realm of silly because that's how silly his argument has become. Don't think for a second that a few insults mean that you're right. That's also a fallacy.
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No. The problem here is you need a full attack action to hit the Crane, and the Crane is moving around and limiting you to standard actions, i.e. one swing.There is such a thing as two weapon fighting, you know.
Edit: to clarify, this is how you hit a crane style user at level 5, before access to iterative attacks.
Then pull out your daggers or darts and throw them at him. They would then be ranged weapon attacks and ignore his deflection ability.
Unless you've a way of dealing out multiple swings on a standard action, you're in trouble.
You can throw anything as an improvised ranged weapon with a range increment of 10ft by taking a -4 non proficiency penalty. Assuming that you don't have a ranged weapon on your person. As a standard action. Ignoring deflection. You can even two weapon fight with improvised ranged weapons as a standard action.
I should also like to point out that the simple ability to parry away your BEST attack in an exchange of full attacks, and then generate an extra attack for himself, caters nicely to the Crane technique if he doesn't want to do the 'float like a butterfly' scenario. You lose your attack most likely to hit, and he gets one extremely likely to hit, which skews the damage exchange nicely.
by taking a penalty to hit on all attacks, being forced to make an attack every round or spend a full round defending every round and spending a bunch of feats. Additional limitations include not being able to two hand weapons, two weapon fight, or carry a shield with your off hand. Also, the feats you spent are useless for deflecting ranged attacks and are meaningless versus spells.
I would say that given the trade offs, crane style is balanced, wouldn't you?
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I've always considered that when the other side of an argument resorts to mockery and hyperbole that they've acknowledged they've lost, so no skin. And when others chime in with their opinions on posters without contributing to the discussion, they are acknowledging it, too.
So, I love it. The best defense that you can't cut a bowstring is that bowstrings DO NOT EXIST. What a WONDERFUL argument. That sure makes sense!
As for bringing in the devs, my gut feeling is they'd go 'sure, go ahead.' JJ tends to do that when you ask him something.
And a 3 foot long taut string is a Fine object? I think you have your view of a fine object somewhat skewed. Maybe if I'm trying to cut it along the perfectly vertical axis...but hitting a bowstring isn't going to be harder then hitting the edge of a door as far as size goes. Do you have problems swatting at a yardstick?
Have you ever fenced with yardsticks? Now imagine that your opponent is holding the yardstick dead center. Now imagine that there is something hanging off to the side of it, now imagine that you have to get a good hard whack at the stick hanging off of the other stick. now imagine that your opponent is dancing back because he wants to shoot arrows at you while you try to hit the stick with your stick. Now you have to avoid the arrows, catch up with him and match his maneuverability. My guess is that you would have a few too many arrows sticking through your chest to cut that bow string, if that is what you were focusing on hitting. To use your analogy.
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So, no withdrawing possible.Ah! So basically, he's on the defensive fighting thing, where he has a +7 AC bonus (or higher, from Traits) against your AoO, and a straight out 50% miss chance for the AoO from Acrobatics, and STILL gets to parry!
So, we're talking 4 attacks for the Crane to 1 to you...AT BEST. And your AoO attack is at -7 to hit from mobility and defensive fighting...his on you is at -1, I believe? So the odds are that he withdraws, you whiff by Acrobatics or by Mobility, and he's got 2 attacks and that parry waiting for you when you advance.
It might well be a great time to be a fighter, but the odds are you're still going to swing and miss.
==Aelryinth
How are you getting 4 attacks for my one?
Certainly not with a full attack. I'm getting an aoo every other round, and my standard attack. You are getting a single attack from your standard action, no AoO's and no full attacks.
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Man, if the new CRANE WING turns into the old DEFLECT ARROWS (that required a Reflex save) I'm going to go ape s%#%.
It's perfectly fine as written. Something actually worth having. Anyways, there are numerous ways to counter it. Take the TWF or mobility archetype fighters for example. Duel wielding or full attack while moving? Yes please!
GIRLY NAYSAYERS: "But, OMG! That's SO totally broken! Someone bring out the nerf bat!"
Please! Enough with making everything weaker already. If you don't like it, don't use it. Leave the rest of it alone.
So, no withdrawing possible.Ah! So basically, he's on the defensive fighting thing, where he has a +7 AC bonus (or higher, from Traits) against your AoO, and a straight out 50% miss chance for the AoO from Acrobatics, and STILL gets to parry!
So, we're talking 4 attacks for the Crane to 1 to you...AT BEST. And your AoO attack is at -7 to hit from mobility and defensive fighting...his on you is at -1, I believe? So the odds are that he withdraws, you whiff by Acrobatics or by Mobility, and he's got 2 attacks and that parry waiting for you when you advance.
It might well be a great time to be a fighter, but the odds are you're still going to swing and miss.
==Aelryinth
How are you getting 4 attacks for my one?
Certainly not with a full attack. I'm getting an aoo every other round, and my standard attack. You are getting a single attack from your standard action, no AoO's and no full attacks.
He gets an attack from his standard action, and an AoO when he deflects an attack from Crane Riposte. Which is still only 2 attacks...
Hey Ravingdork, this seems to be in your territory: stat block it!
With all this talk about what's op and what's not op and all kinds of words and scenarios being thrown around why don't you or Aelryinth make a statblock or 3 and use actual statistics for it. Stop theorycrafting.
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Hey Ravingdork, this seems to be in your territory: stat block it!
With all this talk about what's op and what's not op and all kinds of words and scenarios being thrown around why don't you or Aelryinth make a statblock or 3 and use actual statistics for it. Stop theorycrafting.
I'm lazy, so here's a crane character I built prior to this discussion. It's not a spring attacker, but that's as easy as giving up critical focus for spring attack.
I've attempted to create a non-monk character using the new styles from Ultimate Combat. I ended up making a fighter/duelist with the Crane style, hoping to end with an optimized tank.
The end result is a character with 39 base AC (and a high touch AC), which can be pumped up to 46 when fighting defensively (costing only a -1 penalty to attack rolls).
Furthermore, this character can negate one mundane ranged attack against her each round (Deflect Arrows) AS WELL AS one melee attack made against her each round (Crane Wing). So many of her enemies will need a natural 20 to hit her, which she can negate automatically. Furthermore, due to her advanced studies in the crane style of martial arts and dueling techniques, she can get an Attack of Opportunity against anyone who 5-foot steps away from her, withdraws away from her, or attacks her and misses due to her choosing to negate it.
Depending on one's interpretation of the Canny Defense ability, her AC may well be 4 points lower (which is still extremely high).
Kirom Lancaster
Female elf fighter 6/duelist 9
CG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +10; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
DEFENSE
AC 39, touch 27, flat-footed 27 (+9 armor, +4 deflection, +12 Dex, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +3 natural)
hp 130 (15 HD)
Fort +15, Ref +18, Will +10; +2 vs. enchantment effects
Defensive Abilities canny defense, elaborate defense, Elven immunities, parry; Immune magical sleep effects
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares)
Melee +4 keen scimitar +28/+23/+18 (1d6+13/15-20) or
+4 keen scimitar +28/+23/+18 (1d6+22/15-20) with precise strike, or
unarmed strike +21/+16/+11 (1d3+2)
Ranged +2 returning chakram +23 (1d8+4)
Special Attacks acrobatic charge, no retreat, precise strike +9, riposte, weapon training (rapier +3)
STATISTICS
Abilities Str 14 (+2), Dex 22 (+6), Con 13 (+1), Int 22 (+6), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 8 (–1)
Base Atk +15; CMB +19 (+26 disarm with scimitar); CMD 46 (58 vs. disarm/sunder)
Feats Combat ReflexesB (7 AoO’s/round), Crane Style, Crane Riposte, Crane Wing, Critical Focus, Deflect ArrowsB (see below), Dervish Dance, DodgeB, Following Step, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, MobilityB, Step Up, Step Up and Strike, Weapon FinesseB
Skills Acrobatics +22, Bluff +17, Escape Artist +22, Handle Animal +17, Perception +20, Perform (dance) +8, Ride +22, Sense Motive +18, Stealth +22, Survival +9; Armor Check Penalty –2; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
SQ enhanced mobility, grace, improved reaction +4, silent hunter, weapon familiarity
Gear +2 returning chakram, +4 keen scimitar, +4 glamered celestial armor, amulet of natural armor +3, belt of incredible dexterity +4, boots of speed, cloak of resistance +5, dusty rose prism ioun stone (in wayfinder), gloves of dueling, headband of vast intellect +4 (handle animal, ride), ring of protection +4, tender (34gp)
Encumbrance light 58 lb., medium 116 lb., heavy 175 lb.; Weight Carried 29 lb. (excluding tender)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Acrobatic Charge (Ex) You may charge over difficult terrain that normally slows movement. Depending on the circumstance, you may still need to make appropriate checks to successfully move over the terrain.
Canny Defense (Ex) When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, you add 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to your Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon (included above). If you are caught flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dexterity bonus, you also lose this bonus.
Combat Reflexes You gain the benefit of the Combat Reflexes feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon (included above).
Deflect Arrows You gain the benefit of the Deflect Arrows feat when using a light or one-handed piercing weapon (included above). You do not need a free hand to use this feat.
Elaborate Defense (Ex) If you choose to fight defensively or use total defense in melee combat, you gain an additional +3 dodge bonus to AC.
Enhanced Mobility (Ex) When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, you gain an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of a threatened square.
Grace (Ex) You gain an additional +2 competence bonus on all Reflex saving throws (included above). This ability functions for you only when you are wearing light or no armor and not using a shield.
Improved Reaction (Ex) You gain a +4 bonus on initiative checks (included above). This bonus stacks with the benefit provided by the Improved Initiative feat.
No Retreat (Ex) Enemies adjacent to you that take a withdraw action provoke an attack of opportunity from you.
Parry (Ex) Whenever you take a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, you can elect not to take one of your attacks. At any time before your next turn, you can attempt to parry an attack against you or an adjacent ally as an immediate action. To parry the attack, you make an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack you chose to forego during your previous action. If your attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. For each size category that the attacking creature is larger than you, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. You also take a –4 penalty when attempting to parry an attack made against an adjacent ally. You must declare the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but before the roll is made.
Precise Strike (Ex) You gain the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, adding your duelist level to your damage roll. When making a precise strike, you cannot attack with a weapon in your other hand or use a shield. Your precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is also immune to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike.
Reliable Strike (Ex) Once per day you may reroll an attack roll, critical hit confirmation roll, miss chance check, or damage roll as an immediate action. You must accept the second roll even if it is worse.
Riposte (Ex) You can make an attack of opportunity against any creature whose attack you successfully parry, so long as the creature you are attacking is within reach.
Silent Hunter You reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait).
Weapon Familiarity Elves are proficient with longbows (including composite longbows), longswords, rapiers, and shortbows (including composite shortbows), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon.
Weapon Guard (Ex) You gain a +2 bonus to CMD against disarm and sunder attempts while wielding your chosen weapon. This bonus also applies on saves against any effect that targets your chosen weapon (for example, grease, heat metal, shatter, warp wood).
Weapon Training (Ex) You gains a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls with your chosen weapon.
How long would you say it took to get to the point where the character is as viable/broken as Aelryinth says?
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How long would you say it took to get to the point where the character is as viable/broken as Aelryinth says?
Hah! Trick question. I don't think such a character will ever get as broken as Aelryinth says.
That being said, the trick can work within the first 8 levels.
You need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte, and Improved Unarmed Strike.
A human fighter can get that many feats by 5th-level, but due to feat requirements, can't pull it off until at least 8th-level.
A monk might be able to it by 7th-level, seeing as they can skip certain prerequisites.