Building a powerful sorcerer


Advice

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My disdain for sorcerers is well known in my gaming group; I feel that the bloodlines are lacking, and the extremely limited spells known list too painful to bear. Overall, I think they are subpar casters at best.

That being said, I've decided to make one for our up and coming Carrion Crown game as an exercise in absurdity. And seeing as I have nothing but low opinions of the class, I would like some assistance in building one. People who enjoy the class say they can be quite powerful, and I would like to be proven wrong.

Criteria is 25 point buy, and I must be human; the favored class option for humans is too good to pass up, and it offers a small glimmer of hope for the class. Other than that, I'm open to any advice, hints, and suggestions. Being starved for spells known, I'd like to pick the "best" ones for a sorcerer. The spells need to be one of two things:

1. Something worth casting on a frequent basis. Or...
2. Something that offers versatility to the sorcerer.

As I said, I would like to be shown that the class isn't as horrible as I think it is. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated.


What sources are you allowed?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
What sources are you allowed?

All paizo material is allowed, and 3.5 material may be available pending approval. Obviously cheesy options will be disallowed on principle, but my DM is fairly open minded when it comes to source materials, as long as his trust isn't abused.


A sorcerer is an (almost) one trick pony that if designed well does the job VERY well. Remember that you are a spell spammer with a limited selection. Work with that. If you can use the APG, try going with the option that alows you to have an extra lower level spell instead of an extra HP or skill point. Also, for a good idea on how to select spell, look for the Baldur's Gate 2 Sorcerers guide. Granted, it is for a 2nd edition game, but there are some good ideas in the spell list.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Before you do anything else, you need to think of a theme for the character. Don't try to make a wizard out of the sorcerer, that approach guarantees disappointment. Think more "magical child", that said, don't take this as a discouragement of the Arcane Bloodline, just don' take it with the idea of making your sorcerer into a kind of wizard.

The Exchange

Here's a guide that Ogre wrote on spell selection.

Ogre's Guide to Sorcerer Spell Selection

I have never played a sorcerer, but a quick glance tell me that the Arcane bloodline has potential and the Stormborn bloodline is pretty flavorful.

For traits, I recommend Magical Lineage and/or Gifted Adept.

For full casters in general, I recommend jacking the initiative so you can unleash your magical might FIRST.

Let's it for now. Good luck!

p.s. don't forget to check out the Ultimate Magic


+1 for choose theme first.

For example, an ice sorceror could take burning hands (and substitute the energy type). But could also easily reflavor spells like grease, hold person, or slow to have a cold theme.

Just not an ice beam, that's too Johnny Snow.

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You CAN build an exciting sorceror, it just requires a different mindset. Wizards pick spells a day before. Sorcerors pick spells a year before.
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And just wait till you get to metamagic. I built a 3.5 fire savant blaster, just to do it, and by 7th level, my 3rd level spells included fireball, haste (burning speed, naturally), empowered magic missle, empowered ray of enfeeblement, empowered lesser orb of fire, and searing scorching ray.

Much more than the two spells you would expect me to have. With a bloodline and favored class option, it's even better.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Here's a good way to compare mindsets using the X-Men as an example

Jean Grey and Professor X are both telepaths.

The Professor is more of a Wizard and Jean more of a sorcerer.

Liberty's Edge

From an optimization perspective I would avoid picking a "theme". A sorcerer's limited spells known means you need to avoid doubling up on spells that accomplish the same thing. Avoid redundancy, you don't need wall of stone, ice, fire, or fireball, lightning bolt, magic missle, scorching ray, etc.

My list @ 6 would probably look like the following (with favored class bonuses) in no particular order and add blood line spells to flavor:

1: Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person

2: Invisibility, Web, Scorching Ray

3: Haste

The Exchange

ShadowcatX wrote:

From an optimization perspective I would avoid picking a "theme". A sorcerer's limited spells known means you need to avoid doubling up on spells that accomplish the same thing. Avoid redundancy, you don't need wall of stone, ice, fire, or fireball, lightning bolt, magic missle, scorching ray, etc.

My list @ 6 would probably look like the following (with favored class bonuses) in no particular order and add blood line spells to flavor:

1: Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person

2: Invisibility, Web, Scorching Ray

3: Haste

Don't forget Black Tentacles. And you might want to swap out color spray at higher lvl.


Like others have said you need to know what you want to do with yourself with a sorceror. Unlike a wizard you cant do everything, but you can do a small number of things very well. Do you want to blow stuff up? Control the battlefield? Mess with enemies heads? Buff your allies? Pick like 2 of those, then go from there.

Liberty's Edge

Wilhem wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:

From an optimization perspective I would avoid picking a "theme". A sorcerer's limited spells known means you need to avoid doubling up on spells that accomplish the same thing. Avoid redundancy, you don't need wall of stone, ice, fire, or fireball, lightning bolt, magic missle, scorching ray, etc.

My list @ 6 would probably look like the following (with favored class bonuses) in no particular order and add blood line spells to flavor:

1: Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person

2: Invisibility, Web, Scorching Ray

3: Haste

Don't forget Black Tentacles. And you might want to swap out color spray at higher lvl.

Black Tentacles is a 4th level spell, otherwise I'd have included it.

For swapping out I'd ideally swap out color spray (or obscuring mist since I'll be getting stinking cloud at 7) for charm person but in a playing from 1 I'd probably have grabbed sleep and already swapped it out for enlarge person.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Like others have said you need to know what you want to do with yourself with a sorceror. Unlike a wizard you cant do everything, but you can do a small number of things very well. Do you want to blow stuff up? Control the battlefield? Mess with enemies heads? Buff your allies? Pick like 2 of those, then go from there.

This I do not agree with. You'll get too much redundancy, IMO. Personally, I'd go with doing everything somewhat and grab the best spells for whatever at each level.

The Exchange

Don't forget to use scrolls and wands for spells that are on your SPELL LIST but are not your KNOWN SPELLS.

With a good CHA and decent investment in UMD, you will eventually (at high lvl) be able to consistently cast spells outside the sorc/wiz spell list. That's something a sorcerer is actually good at.


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Theme is OK I guess, but I think it's more important to focus on what you're trying to do with the character.

Unlike wizards (who have the luxury of easily changing up their spells), sorcerers have limited spells and must look at it from this perspective:

* limited spells must be good enough to cast over and over in most fights.

* limited spells must be versatile enough to be cast over and over in most fights.

There's only so many spells that are good. There's only so many spells that are versatile. There's even less spells that are both good and versatile. You want to pick as many "grouped-together" spells as you can (since feats and abilities tie off certain attributes, like spell school and subschool). So focusing on a specific concept helps with a sorcerer by picking a select group of related spells that are both good and versatile. Theme may play into that, but getting an overall focus helps when you make some basic design choices.

Step 1: Do you want to have a high Charisma?

This is more of a binary choice than it sounds. When I say "high Charisma", I mean MAXED Charisma at the start (at the expense of other stats) and focusing on attacking saving throws/SR/resistances and spamming spells. Anything else could result in Charisma being a secondary or even tertiary stat.

High Charisma Choices:
* Save-based Battlefield Controller (hinder/distract enemies)

* Save-based Blaster (blast enemies with as much damage as possible)

Low Charisma Choices:
* Summon/Buff-Bot Battlefield Controller (use summons/teammates as pawns and buff/help them to where enemies can't win)

* Melee (buff yourself, tear into enemies and smash them)

The easier of the 4 options are the battlefield controllers. Blast spells have a bad reputation in PF -- they're harder to optimize, and there's less ray cheese than in 3.X -- but battlefield controllers are pretty easy to deal with. Making a melee sorcerer is more difficult than it was in 3.X, but it's not impossible. So for a "sorcerer noob" I'd recommend the battlefield control options.

One save-based battlefield control option that is pretty nice is the illusion route. This gives you some elements of a blaster along with plenty of control spells. If you take this route, I *highly* recommend playing a gnome to get the +1 save DC.

General purpose Info:

If you take a saving throw spell, you're going to have to get rid of it eventually (using the dump a spell for another mechanic). You need to make the most out of each spell. Heighten Spell is a hack-fix to make spells work later on, but really it's better to pick more powerful spells with higher save DCs. 3.5 added the dump spell mechanic after 3.0 because Heighten Spell alone wasn't a good option (and it *requires* you to get Heighten Spell). The exception to this is the Spell Perfection route and "saving" a spell like slow -- but even then I recommend getting Spell Perfection on the most powerful spell you have at the time (7th level spell most likely).

Don't take more than 1 spell per spell level that has a saving throw. There are some exceptions to this (when a spell has a save ability and a useful no-save ability -- like glitterdust). You don't want to load up on spells that have a save that later becomes obsolete. You don't want to rely on Heighten Spell (but you can, if you'd like -- but I don't like it). Most of the spells you should take are saveless and/or SR-less. Acid Arrow is a great example of a 2nd level spell you should take eventually. With no save, no SR, average enemy touch ACs not really going up that much as the levels increase, and a high level cap on damage increases, the spell is a no-brainer.

Always cast either the highest level spells you can or (at worst) one level behind -- unless exceptional circumstances pop up. For instance, if I'm playing a 4th level sorcerer, I pick one 2nd level spell that is "spammable". I also have a 1st level spell that is still very effective that is my "spammable" spell. Eventually you should trade up these "spammable" spells for utility spells when you get to 3rd or 4th level spells.

Rods are freaking awesome for sorcerers. The Craft Rod feat is also freaking awesome. By taking a +5 to the craft DC, you can possibly craft most rods without any prereqs other than Craft Rod. The craft DC is somewhat high, but there are ways around that. A rod of Persistent Spell should be standard equipment for most higher level save-based battlefield controlling sorcerers. Crafting a Selective Spell rod (for use with things like confusion) is much easier than taking the Selective Spell feat (available earliest at 10th level, typically 11th for sorcerers).

The Spell Perfection feat is also freaking awesome. Even though it is steep in prereqs and you don't get it until late in the game, being able to spam a super-powered spell over and over is a huge advantage of the sorcerer. I usually plan to take this feat with practically any build. Does that mean its broken. . . maybe. But it's very hard to deny that the feat is strong.

If you don't go the save-based route, the goal will be to focus on survival and your minions (party and summons). A dead summon lord buff bot is useless. So stacking Dex/Con/Wis is preferable to buffing Cha. The minimum requirement is to maintain Cha to the point that you can cast spell levels you're supposed to be casting. This same character cares about lower-level saveless spells just as much as any other sorcerer.

Don't underestimate the importance of AoE damage spells. Arcane classes are often asked to have an AoE damage spell. Don't completely ignore this expectation. There are saveless AoE damage spells, but it doesn't hurt to have a wand or some scrolls that focus on save-based AoE damage. It won't be an optimal choice, but sometimes optimal isn't necessary.

Always max out every advantage you can against SR and spell DCs. In the very early game(1-4), saving throws > SR. But afterwards, getting Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration is pretty important. When playing a save-based sorcerer, I usually get (Greater) Spell Focus between 1-4 and take (Greater) Spell Penetration ASAP at 5/7.

Just some humble opinions (: No need to take the above as an absolute requirement to play a sorcerer.


If it is an exercise in absurdity you are looking for, I suggest the verdant bloodline. Not only is it pretty weird, being a plant sorcerer and not like a druid or something, but its got a pretty useful 1st level ability with its vines.

Aside from that, pick spells that have multiple uses, like summons, and sometimes the shadow spells can be pretty useful too, like shadow conjuration and evocation.

Grand Lodge

ShadowcatX wrote:

From an optimization perspective I would avoid picking a "theme". A sorcerer's limited spells known means you need to avoid doubling up on spells that accomplish the same thing. Avoid redundancy, you don't need wall of stone, ice, fire, or fireball, lightning bolt, magic missle, scorching ray, etc.

My list @ 6 would probably look like the following (with favored class bonuses) in no particular order and add blood line spells to flavor:

1: Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person

2: Invisibility, Web, Scorching Ray

3: Haste

The goal behind this list is versatility. It's an excellent list. However, remember that you are not Batman, and you shouldn't be. The big difference between the Wizard and the Sorcerer is that the Wizard can, given enough time and money, do anything; but the Sorcerer can do a few things without the time or money. You give up preparation ability for spontaneity.

Spell choices should reflect that. The spells listed above have lots of uses, but note that they are also, mostly, spur-of-the-moment things. Other spells of value are Charm Person or Animate Rope, depending on the kind of sorcerer you are. The idea is that the Wizard deals with the problem perfectly, given a day to prepare, while the Sorcerer can jury-rig the solution right now.

Get to know the bloodlines and what they can do. For example, I have an Aberrant Sorcerer right now. Over the course of levels, I get bonuses to polymorph spells, protection from sneak attacks and crits, and a longer-range touch attack. So, this sorcerer wades into combat a bit more than most full casters, changing into whatever beast is helpful to the situation, and stacking touch attacks to whatever strikes I need. Chill Touch is a go-to spell for this build, while it's of less value to most other casters. Important feats include Combat Casting, Still Spell, and Silent Spell, so that I can cast stuff no matter where I am or what shape I have. Since I do not prepare spells, Still and Silent spells are more useful because I don't have to know in advance when I'll need them. Quickened Spell, of course, is terrific for most sorcerers in PF.


I would've suggested Fey and Serpentine (using Crossblooded) to get an amazing Enchanter (+2 to DCs, and can affect animals, magical beasts, and monstruous humanoids with Charm Person? Nice.), but I've heard Carrion Crown has lots of undead, so disregard that.

It seems that others have better advice than I could give, so I'd just like to remind you that Summon Monster can potentially open up your spell list quite a bit!


Cheapy wrote:

I would've suggested Fey and Serpentine (using Crossblooded) to get an amazing Enchanter (+2 to DCs, and can affect animals, magical beasts, and monstruous humanoids with Charm Person? Nice.), but I've heard Carrion Crown has lots of undead, so disregard that.

It seems that others have better advice than I could give, so I'd just like to remind you that Summon Monster can potentially open up your spell list quite a bit!

Why not use the same idea but go undead bloodline? It lets you affect humanoid undead with enchantments.


This was mentioned once, but its worth repeating. The Alternate favored class bonus for humans in AGP is awesome.

"Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human


Torchbearer wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I would've suggested Fey and Serpentine (using Crossblooded) to get an amazing Enchanter (+2 to DCs, and can affect animals, magical beasts, and monstruous humanoids with Charm Person? Nice.), but I've heard Carrion Crown has lots of undead, so disregard that.

It seems that others have better advice than I could give, so I'd just like to remind you that Summon Monster can potentially open up your spell list quite a bit!

Why not use the same idea but go undead bloodline? It lets you affect humanoid undead with enchantments.

Could an undead/serpentine affect for example an "undead animal" with charm person?


Nymor wrote:
Torchbearer wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

I would've suggested Fey and Serpentine (using Crossblooded) to get an amazing Enchanter (+2 to DCs, and can affect animals, magical beasts, and monstruous humanoids with Charm Person? Nice.), but I've heard Carrion Crown has lots of undead, so disregard that.

It seems that others have better advice than I could give, so I'd just like to remind you that Summon Monster can potentially open up your spell list quite a bit!

Why not use the same idea but go undead bloodline? It lets you affect humanoid undead with enchantments.
Could an undead/serpentine affect for example an "undead animal" with charm person?

I think the undead bit overrides the animal bit, so if you could use enchantments on undead, you could use it on the animal.

Shadow Lodge

The note to the Undead arcana is that it's only corporeal undead that were once humanoids that are affected, so as written it wouldn't stack with Serpentine's animal effects.


Cheapy wrote:
I would've suggested Fey and Serpentine (using Crossblooded)

I don't think using the crossblooded archetype is a wise decision for someone who doesn't like the sorcs limited spells known list. After all, the archetype limits the list even further. Being human might help a bit, but personally, I'd be totally frustrated before I even reach level 4 to get my fist 1st level bonus spell.


Max out your Use Magic Device skill... if you are the groups only arcane caster then all scrolls, wands, and similar doohickeys are yours by default, plus you can carry an extra Cure Wounds wand for emergencies when one becomes available. Have you noticed that all the Adventure Paths have a good selection of utility spell wands in them as random treasure drops? That's where you'll find the useful spells that you don't want to burn a coveted Known Spell slot on... Unseen Servant, Knock, Floating Disc, Mage Armor, etc.

As for spells, here's some basic advice I lived by when playing my last sorcerer in the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP:

1. Choose spells that have multiple applications or effects to maximize your versatility. Forget See Invisible because Glitterdust will reveal invisible objects AND potential blind the enemy. Pyrotechnics is great because it makes choking smoke or blinding flashes AND it puts out fires!

2. When selecting spells known, go with stuff that you will cast over and over every day ... save the once-per-day stuff for scrolls n' wands.

3. Make sure your favorite spells that have saving throws are in your spells known list... save the ones that don't allow saves or don't target the enemy for the wands you'll be finding/buying/trading.


I'm going to second the suggestion for a theme.

Yes, yes, I know all of the objections to a guy who can only do fire damage. I'm not suggesting THAT. But a theme. An idea. Something that will make the character fun to play every time you sit down.

Because without that, it doesn't matter what you make.

----------------------------------------------

Example: sorceror is a good person who has an unhealthy and worrisome connection to shadowy forces.

Spells could include armor of darkness (mage armor), ray of darkness (enfeeblement), blast of shadow (color spray), cloak of shadow (displacement), and at higher levels, black tentacles and shadow walk.

We've got defense (also useable on monks, fighters on boats, animal companions), a touch attack, a will save attack, a second defense, battlefield control, and group transportation.

Versatile, and still fun. That's what I recommend.

I would hate to play something as dull as round 1 cast haste, round two use battlefield control spell, rinse, repeat.


Suggestion #1 Find out what the rest of the party is. As mentioned, you are not batman. Unlike a wizard, you cannot restructure your focus by picking a different set of spells the next day. You need to know your role!

Suggestion #2 You have a distinct advantage over many sorceror designers. You know what AP your in, and therefore, you can predict that you will be facing a) lots of undead and b) other horror monsters. This should influence your spell list. Few sorceror's bother with control undead. You might want to.

Suggestion #3 Plan Plan Plan. Plan your spell list from levels 1 to 20, including both bonus spells, and spell swaps (level 4, 6, etc). PS the human bonus is awesome after level 3 or so... before that, take the HP.

Suggestion #4 Item creation - someone mentioned rods above. The same applies to custom staves (and wands). Using an ally of some sort to fulfill the spell known requirement allows you to access a lot of spells that aren't on your personal list... Faction membership is a good way of getting said ally. Given you have UMD, consider spells outside your list. Things like a wand of Bestow Grace off the paladin list can be awesome advantages.

Suggestion #5 Assuming UM, using Eldritch Heritage feat to get yourself a familiar on top of your bloodline is probably a really good idea. Familiars who can use your UMD skill can approach being an extra action per turn...


A lot of good advice so far!

Expanding on my initial inquery a bit, I should also like to ask for advice on feat choices and possible prestige classes; 3.5 material is possibbly available. From what I hear, metamagic is good for sorcerers, despite the full-round casting clause. Is it better to load up on metamagic feats, or rely more on rods? I had initially thought to pick up heighten spell at some point to stretch out the usefulness of low level spells.

Meabolex, thank you for bringing Craft Rod to my attention. I've never given much thought in rods; as far as magic items go, they are expensive. Meta magic rods are great when you can get them, but the price stings. And as far as crafting metamagic rods goes, don't you have to have the feat in order to craft the rod?

Shadow Lodge

Prestige classes:

The 3.5 Sorcerer was very well served by jumping into a full-caster prestige class ASAP. They didn't receive any further benefits for staying pure Sorcerer.

In PF, however, this is entirely not true. The bloodlines make it much more rewarding to remain a Sorcerer for all 20 levels. If you must take a prestige class, consider a Draconic Sorcerer, going for Dragon Disciple--it's a much different class in PF. Otherwise, you're really just trading one set of neat abilities for another set.

Feat Choices:

I'd like to add another thought about the Sorcerer. You are not Batman; you are Superman. You know only a few tricks, but you can do those tricks really well. So, when it comes to Item Creation feats, throw everything you know about the Wizard out the window.

Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wand: These are great for casting spells that you just can't cast enough, or that you know but can't be bothered to prepare. Sorcerers have neither problem. Forget these feats. You'll use scrolls and wands throughout your career, but you won't be making them.

Craft Wondrous Item: Decent, but remember that you must meet the prerequisites, and since your spell list is limited, it's not a matter of just jotting down the right spell in your spellbook first. Focus on the spells you'll cast, first, then see if it allows you to create items of value.

Craft Magic Arms and Armor: This will make you friends with the rest of the party, and many effects are easy to achieve. This might be worth looking into.

Forge Ring, Craft Rod, Craft Staff: Staves are wands on steroids; you need to craft them as much as you need to craft wands--don't. For Rings and Rods, follow the same advice you would with Wondrous Items. If you find Rings and Rods you want, and you already reasonably meet the prerequisites, it's okay, otherwise don't bother. Note that for metamagic rods, you already need to know the associated feat, so they might prove to be a little less valuable--they're really more like Sudden Metamagic in a tube.

Since much of the time, you're standing around casting a spell, changing from a standard to a full-round action doesn't really change much. Metamagic works well for Sorcerers. Quicken also works like Quicken should, so it's definitely valuable. The specific best metamagic will depend more on your role--if you're a buffer, Extend is great. If you're a Save-or-Die sort, Heighten, Bouncing, and Persistent are your go-to feats. You already have Eschew Materials, so Silent and Still spellcasting means it's really hard to stop you from casting. Most of the rest of the metamagic is good for blasters--which sorcerers can do.

Note that one trick that the Sorcerer is better than the Wizard is with Improved Counterspell. If you choose to go this route, make sure you know a spell of every school, and then you can Counterspell anything. However, you must choose this route and leave it at that.

But really, the greatest advice here is know your role. And the first step to that is to know your bloodline. The bloodline you choose will affect which feats you want and which prestige classes to go for. Aberrants will be closer to the frontlines, Fey will maneuver from the back, and so one. Choose your bloodline FIRST, then choose your feat/spell/PC.

Shadow Lodge

I've just read over the Carrion Crown Player's Guide, and they have this recommendation:

Carrion Crown Player's Guide wrote:


Recommendations: Sorcerers of the aberrant, arcane, celestial, destined, and undead bloodlines will fit particularly well in the Carrion Crown Adventure Path, though no bloodline would be a poor fit. Players who wish to use bloodlines from other sources may wish to look into the orc bloodline in Pathfinder Player Companion: Orcs of Golarion—especially given the nation’s proximity to the Hold of Belkzen—and the dreamspun and starsoul bloodlines in the Advanced Player’s Guide. Suggested skills include Bluff, Intimidate, and Knowledge (arcana).

Here are my thoughts about the bloodlines:

Aberrant: Combat builds. The versatility is via Polymorph. Take if you want to become a combat caster.

Arcane: Wizard Lite. You get an Arcane Bond and extra help with Metamagic. Take if you don't want to tie down to a direction.

Celestial: Good for debuffing evil. Good for summoning. Good choice.

Destined: Defense, defense, defense. As a result, a good battlefield controller in pillbox format.

Undead: Good for a necromancer. Note the quick-Black Tentacles SLA.

Dreamspun: Excellent divination or SOD caster. If you must take a prestige class, this one is good for getting into Loremaster or Harrower. I don't recommend a prestige class, though.

Starsoul: Decent blaster, excellent battlefield controller.

Let me know if anything sounds like your style.

One final note about Prestige Classes:
Since you're so worried about not knowing enough spells, I would take no prestige class. You won't get your Favored Class bonus of extra spells, and you won't advance your bloodline, so you also won't get your bonus bloodline spells, either. You'd have to give up one and a half extra spells you could know per prestige class level.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pad300 wrote:
Familiars who can use your UMD skill can approach being an extra action per turn...

I'm still not sure that's legal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Familiars who can use your UMD skill can approach being an extra action per turn...
I'm still not sure that's legal.

It surely is against RAI, I'd say. RAW... well,it's up to the GM and the OP already said that this GM hates obvious cheese.


If GM plays correctly, it's balanced. A laser shooting tiny-half health familiar is MUCH more likely to be killed than a lurking one.


InVinoVeritas wrote:

One final note about Prestige Classes:

Since you're so worried about not knowing enough spells, I would take no prestige class. You won't get your Favored Class bonus of extra spells, and you won't advance your bloodline, so you also won't get your bonus bloodline spells, either.

That´s definitely true on the Favored Class aspect, but I don´t agree on the Bloodline Spells. Read the ´spellcasting advancement´ text in any PrC. NOWHERE does it discern FROM WHAT SPECIFIC CLASS FEATURE you gain the benefits it grants, even though it is trivial to do so, and many other Classes or Feats DO specify (e.g. Eldritch Heritage grants 1st level Bloodline Power, excluding Arcana).

...So known spells gained from Bloodline, whatever the Bloodine wants to ´call´ that class ability, would count as spells known gained from advancing in that class (which PrC´s grant, if you are a Spontaneous Caster). If Bloodline Bonus Spells do not count as spells known, you can´t actually cast them, which would obviously be a serious problem with any interpretation trying to exclude these spells known...

Like I said, you definitely will lose out on Favored Class benefit, but if you´re really worried about that, you can continue take levels in Sorceror, say 50:50 with advancement in the PrC... Obviously, that isn´t something you really need to worry about right off the bat at level 1. I think PrCs can work pretty decently with a Sorceror, even if you DO give up some stuff (Bloodline Powers, Favored Class Benefit).

Sovereign Court

For Feats, I'd use:

Spell Focus: (School of Choice)
Varisian Tatoo: (School of Choice)


LazarX wrote:
pad300 wrote:
Familiars who can use your UMD skill can approach being an extra action per turn...
I'm still not sure that's legal.

Its very difficult and more often than not fails. Most familiars have a negative to Charisma. Without magical help it's only a 50/50 chance at around level 12 with max ranks in UMD for the wiz. Plus you're familiar becomes a combat target.

Best I can tell it's legal, but not necessarily always a good idea.


It becomes a far better tactic with Improved Familiar.

If you get a mephit or homonoculous, you have a familiar with better defenses, flight, and most importantly, HANDS.

Go the extra step, of course, and protect it. Cast mage armor on the familiar, for example, and maybe give it a ring of protection.


rkraus2 wrote:

It becomes a far better tactic with Improved Familiar.

If you get a mephit or homonoculous, you have a familiar with better defenses, flight, and most importantly, HANDS.

Go the extra step, of course, and protect it. Cast mage armor on the familiar, for example, and maybe give it a ring of protection.

I've got a monkey familiar that I plan to do this with. Because he has thumbs.


Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:
I've got a monkey familiar that I plan to do this with. Because he has thumbs.

The MOST important part needed for UMD`ing Wands is actually the ability to speak, because Wands (and other items) are Command Word activated. Hands are very useful as well, for drawing / switching around multiple items at will, and manipulating items in general (e.g. Potions), but a Raven can use UMD on Wands even though it doesn`t have thumbs, holding the Wand in it`s claws should be fine.

The Improved Familiars, which kick in around 5th-7th level, are definitely a step up, because they let you have ALL of that, AND flight, AND a bunch of great other abilities, including stuff like Lay on Hands, Blindsense, etc.

If the OP is already `familiar` with the benefits of Familiars, I assume he would be attracted to Arcane Bloodline to begin with... If he`s not, that can be part of the learning process for the Class. I HIGHLY recommend the Familiar for all it offers... Fortunately, if you have access to Ultimate Magic, ANY other Bloodline can take Arcane Heritage: Arcane Bloodline, and gain complete Familiar access themselves (just as -2 effective level).

The Arcane Bloodline`s Arcana, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline Abilities (besides Familiar) aren`t that impressive at low levels (they rock at high level with metamagic and extra spells known), so taking another bloodline but getting the Arcane BL Familiar via Eldritch Heritage seems like a rewarding approach. You need to start off with Skill Focus: Knowledge if you want to grab Eldritch Heritage at the earliest level possible (3rd), but you can also pick it up any time after that, obviously.


ShadowcatX wrote:

From an optimization perspective I would avoid picking a "theme". A sorcerer's limited spells known means you need to avoid doubling up on spells that accomplish the same thing. Avoid redundancy, you don't need wall of stone, ice, fire, or fireball, lightning bolt, magic missle, scorching ray, etc.

My list @ 6 would probably look like the following (with favored class bonuses) in no particular order and add blood line spells to flavor:

1: Color Spray, Grease, Silent Image, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person

2: Invisibility, Web, Scorching Ray

3: Haste

I would suggest hold person. It's makes any melee helpless and open to coup de grace-ing.


Quandary wrote:


If the OP is already `familiar` with the benefits of Familiars, I assume he would be attracted to Arcane Bloodline to begin with... If he`s not, that can be part of the learning process for the Class. I HIGHLY recommend the Familiar for all it offers... Fortunately, if you have access to Ultimate Magic, ANY other Bloodline can take Arcane Heritage: Arcane Bloodline, and gain complete Familiar access themselves (just as -2 effective level).

The Arcane Bloodline`s Arcana, Bloodline Spells, and Bloodline Abilities (besides Familiar) aren`t that impressive at low levels (they rock at high level with metamagic and extra spells known), so taking another bloodline but getting the Arcane BL Familiar via Eldritch Heritage seems like a rewarding approach. You need to start off with Skill Focus: Knowledge if you want to grab Eldritch Heritage at the earliest level possible (3rd), but you can also pick it up any time after that, obviously.

I plan on getting a familiar through the Obtain Familar Feat from, I believe, Complete Arcane. Once I hit 7th level, I'll then pick up Improved Familiar; what I choose is still up in the air, but I have time. With Obtain Familiar, I won't need to be arcane bloodline.

Shadow Lodge

Any thoughts regarding the bloodline you plan on taking?


InVinoVeritas wrote:


Craft Wondrous Item: Decent, but remember that you must meet the prerequisites, and since your spell list is limited, it's not a matter of just jotting down the right spell in your spellbook first. Focus on the spells you'll cast, first, then see if it allows you to create items of value.

You are wrong on this one, the spell prerequisite can be overcomed by taking a +5 to the crafting DC.

Scarymike wrote:

This was mentioned once, but its worth repeating. The Alternate favored class bonus for humans in AGP is awesome.

"Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human

It's not just awesome, it's SO good that make any other race choice a very very bad idea.

Personally i don't like that thing (because only humans get it) but it's right there in the APG.


@ leo1925 I don't mind because humans get so little else in comparison to the other races -- it's good that their favored class options are a bit better than the rest.

Personally I think a human infernal serpentine crossblooded with eldritch heritage feats for arcane bloodline isn't a bad idea at all. Use the Threnodic Spell metamagic feat if you need it. At this point you'll be able to target undead, animals, monstrous humanoids and magical beasts with most enchantment spells. Enchanters are fairly wishy-washy though -- either they do awesome or they do very poorly.

Feats might look like this:
Skill Focus(knowledge(arcane), Spell Focus(Enchantment), Eldritch heritage(arcane bloodline), Threnodic Spell, Improved Familiar, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus(Enchatment), Improved Eldritch heritage(arcane bloodline), Spell Focus(conjuration), Combat Casting, Augment Summoning, Greater Arcane Heritage, Superior Summoning

Could offer an interesting combination of options.

Shadow Lodge

I've not heard of Eldritch Heritage or Crossblooded. Are they from Ultimate Magic?


InVinoVeritas wrote:
I've not heard of Eldritch Heritage or Crossblooded. Are they from Ultimate Magic?

Yes


leo1925 wrote:
It's not just awesome, it's SO good that make any other race choice a very very bad idea.

Lots of lower level spells isn't bad from a utility perspective.

From a perspective of casting your most powerful spell every round (which sorcerers should usually be doing), it's not going to help you.

So it's an OK option. There are better choices in terms of pure power though. . .


Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Meabolex, thank you for bringing Craft Rod to my attention. I've never given much thought in rods; as far as magic items go, they are expensive. Meta magic rods are great when you can get them, but the price stings. And as far as crafting metamagic rods goes, don't you have to have the feat in order to craft the rod?

Nope. You take a +5 to the crafting DC to make up for the missing metamagic feat. But there are several ways around dealing with a high crafting DC. One solution is to use Craft (Sculptures) to craft rods. Then you can use the crafter's fortune spell (+5 bonus on next craft check) and masterwork artisan tools (+2). Being a gnome helps here as well (+2 to a craft skill).

With a +0 Int modifier at level 9 (the first level you can get Craft Rod), you can get:

27 = take 10 + 9 ranks + 3 class + 5 crafter's fortune

The DC to craft most metamagic rods is 17 caster level + 5 base + 5 missing feat = 27

So you really don't even need tools, to be a gnome, or have any Int modifier. Those would help if the rod had 2 prereqs though. . .


generally speaking pick spells that bet more impressive with caster level.

Magic missle does for example and Endure elements doesnt.

Dark Archive

Sayer_of_Nay, I agree with you on the way that the blood lines are setup, the spell selection is lacking and I feel it doesn't match with the theme of the bloodline.
(For that reason my dm let be substitute spells that matched the blood line... I was an electric breathing Draconic bloodline so I got shocking grasp as a 1st lv spell) I
I was hoping that UM would have feats to help certain blood lines, like an ability to exchange bloodline powers for better powers and effects like how Paladin exchanges lay on hands for channeling, an example would be exchanging 2 draconic claw uses for an awesome leaping ability.
This is not in the UM or other published books but it can be homebrew.

For this issue at hand, I don't have UM yet so I don't know the prestige classes. But your Sorcerer can multi-class. One or 2 paladin levels would give you an awesome boost to saves. And ac vs. smite targets, plus if you cast spells or use powers that require an attack roll you can add that awesome Cha bonus of yours.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
Scarymike wrote:

This was mentioned once, but its worth repeating. The Alternate favored class bonus for humans in AGP is awesome.

"Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human

It's not just awesome, it's SO good that make any other race choice a very very bad idea.

Personally i don't like that thing (because only humans get it) but it's right there in the APG.

I wholly disagree with your assertion, but that's a debate for another thread.

Sayer of Nay: You may want to go with the Arcane Sage bloodline archetype in Ultimate Magic. It allows you to substitute Intelligence instead of Charisma for the purposes of determining th effects of your sorcerer abilities (bloodline ability uses per day, bonus spells, DCs, etc.) in exchange for giving up your normal bloodline arcana.

It goes a LONG way towards boosting your skill set, though you will no longer be the face of the party (most likely). You get to keep some of the best options of the Arcane bloodline too, like the extra spells known and the +2 to DCs of a single school. You even get a familiar which can do the whole UMD thing described above.

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