Building a powerful sorcerer


Advice

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Ravingdork wrote:
You even get a familiar which can do the whole UMD thing described above.

No you don't.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork, that statement is good for giving sorcerers credit but it just makes the class into a wizard like class. Also with everyone else having access to blood lines some of what makes sorcerers so special is taken away. And after seeing Split Slot, I feel that Sayer_of_Nay is correct wen stating that the class is lacking.

Liberty's Edge

If you go for a pure Sorcerer (ie, no Dragon Disciple) so that you can really explore the class, I suggest the Arcane Bloodline : more spells added to your list, good Bloodline spells (Invisibility, Dispel Magic, Dimension Door, Overland Flight, Greater Teleport) and nice abilites dealing with Metamagic feats.

I have been playing a Halfling Jinx Sorceress of the Arcane Bloodline for a few sessions now. It is the very first time I play an arcane caster and it is a very interesting experience.

The minus (especially compared to wizard) : very few skills, and not so good at Knowledge : Arcana and Spellcraft.

The plus : casting many times the appropriate spell. Depending on the situation, I can turn the villain's path into a skating rink (Grease), almost ensure that my comrades are control-proof (Protection from Evil) or that the bad guys get stunned at the very least (Color Spray)

In addition to all that was posted here, I would suggest that you search for "Sorcerer" in this Advice section. It will lead you to a lot of very interesting posts on what the best spells are (including some Spell Compendium goodness).


Pathfinder books only or are any of the 3.5 books still open? And if so, which ones?


meabolex wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
It's not just awesome, it's SO good that make any other race choice a very very bad idea.

Lots of lower level spells isn't bad from a utility perspective.

From a perspective of casting your most powerful spell every round (which sorcerers should usually be doing), it's not going to help you.

So it's an OK option. There are better choices in terms of pure power though. . .

I agree with Leo. Simply try and stuff the planar binding line into your sorceror without it - to take advantage of your charisma dominance - and watch what happens to your spell list. You need a circle of protection, dimensional anchor, one or more binding spells, and maybe dismissal.

Alternatively consider 2nd level spells

Which spells do you not want to have available from say 9th level on

Mirror Image, False Life, Defending bone, Glitterdust/See Invisible, scorching/admonishing ray, shatter, invisibility, command undead, spectral hand, knock, rope trick, make whole, web, create pit

Pick 5...

The extra spells allow you to become a)much less of an eggshell with a hammer, and b) fill in a lot of utility, giving you the tool for the situation.


@pad300
I am glad you agree but as other people have said this is a discussion for another thread, we told the OP that this a very good choice so i think that now we should tell him (or let other people do) other good options.


Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
I'd like to pick the "best" ones for a sorcerer.

This is a trap.

Sorcerers are not built piece by piece, but rather holistically. A patchwork build is going to try to play like a wizard and is doomed not to be a wizard.

Sorcerers are very different creatures from wizards despite sharing most of the same spell list. If you are going to play one as the other you are going to not be as happy as you would be actually being the other class.

I would suggest that you consider what all you want the PC to be able to accomplish, consider things like metamagic feats/items, consumables, magic items and the like along with spells known.

Its harder to build, but not as bad as doing a melee build in 3.5.

Speaking of 3.5 as you have some access to those things, there is a feat that will let you apply metamagics without increasing the casting time. Consider it.

Also consider being mounted. Whether reduced or not (depending on whether you are indoors or out) being mounted will give you more mobility while letting you make full round action castings.

Bloodline is a tough choice for you, I would suggest that you first look to answer what all you want your character to be doing first and then see which compliment your idea and which don't. This can help you narrow down the list.

What levels do you plan on seeing with the sorcerer and how fast will you obtain them?

As to PrCs, rather than spend 2 feats for a familiar perhaps a single level (or two) in diabolist? It only costs your soul.. and you weren't really planning on using it for anything else now were you? The imp companion will outshine any improved familiar out there by far.

-James

Shadow Lodge

James's thoughts are all very good.

I've done some reading, however, and definitely, Obtain Familiar is superior to Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) because there are far fewer requirements and your familiar level is your character level, not your character level -2.

Thanks to leo1925 for the clarification on magic item crafting, but the basic advice still stands: Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are suboptimal choices for sorcerers.

Sudden Metamagic will get you spells that instantly have the metamagic you're looking for, without an increase in casting time or spell level slot. You only get to use them once/day as opposed to three/day with metamagic rods, but it's easier on the coin purse and you don't need to have the right tool in your hand.

Everyone's advice is still, for the most part, the same. Choose your theme, then your bloodline, then your abilities, traits, feats, skills, and spells. Of the bloodlines mentioned in Carrion Crown, I would personally choose Celestial or Starsoul, but that's a personal preference, and you've got to be happy with that choice. Look at each bloodline's powers, arcana, and bonus spells, and answer to yourself, how could I make that work for me? How would I maximize the value of that particular set of powers? And would I want to do that? That will tell you which choice you should make.


pad300 wrote:

Mirror Image, False Life, Defending bone, Glitterdust/See Invisible, scorching/admonishing ray, shatter, invisibility, command undead, spectral hand, knock, rope trick, make whole, web, create pit

Pick 5...

This is a good exercise in picking sorcerer spells.

Assuming the character is a save-based battlefield controller at level 4, you'd have to go with either glitterdust, web, or create pit. For the purposes of this exercise, let's pick web.

1. web - 4

Now you're level 5, you get a bloodline spell -- which can severely alter our decision making. Let's pick arcane (since that's the "default" sorcerer anyway). You get invisibility, so that opens up more options. One thing that we're missing is a solid damage spell. I'd pick up acid arrow (no save, no SR, huge range, scales to the end practically).

1. web - 4
2. (invisibility - 5) acid arrow - 5

So we have battlefield control, defensive utility, and direct damage. We need some offensive utility, so I'd take glitterdust at 7th level. Glitterdust's save may soon be outdated, but the remote invisibility removal (with no SR) is a key ability. People on your team can pinpoint with perception to locate their position.

1. web - 4
2. (invisibility - 5) acid arrow - 5
3. glitterdust - 7

At 8th level, you trade out web for something else (the save is too low versus 3rd and 4th level spells). That's a great time (with 8 hours/level) to pick up false life.

1. [web - 4] gone
2. (invisibility - 5) acid arrow - 5
3. glitterdust - 7
4. (false life) - 8

At 9th level and 11th level, you're looking at pure utility spells. Rope trick, knock, or make whole all work here, but there are other options. These choices mainly depend on what is missing in party composition ("do we have a rogue with disable device?"), but campaign-specific elements also factor here ("does my GM constantly ambush us while attempting to rest?"). You also have to look at your higher-level spells and see what you already have versus what is available.

1. [web - 4] gone
2. (invisibility - 5) acid arrow - 5
3. glitterdust - 7
4. (false life) - 8
5. rope trick - 9
6. make whole - 11

And that's how I'd pick 2nd level spells. . .

Sovereign Court

I would say that about 85-90% of the people who play wizards create a standard spell list that they prepare every day. Then leave a few slots as variables depending on the situation. But each wizard has their goto spells. This list changes very little in normal situations.

If you look at the previous wizards you play and the spells that they always select - Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Mirror image, Glitter dust, Haste/Slow, dim door, solid fog etc.. then those are likely the spells you would pick as a sorcerer.

Figure out what your go to spells are going to be and plan accordingly.

I often think of Sorceress that follow a theme as old Specialist wizards IE a necromancer.. ray of enfeeble, ray of exhaustion, false life, command undead, enervate, etc... Most specialist wizards more than generic wizards have an even tighter spell list that they choose daily with likely even fewer variations. So if I do a themed sorcerer I plan those out.

If it is easier for you to think of building a wizard spell list then do so. Take a 10th or 15th level wizard and build their spell list. Identify which spells you cannot do without. Then work backwards to fill in a sorcerers known spells. Eliminating any non-essential spells, or spells that don’t feel like go to spells.


I want to thank everyone who contributed in this thread; all of the advice has been extremely helpful. After reading this thread and others, I've decided to play a sorcerer based off of one of my favorite anime characters: Zelgadis Graywords from The Slayers. For those not familiar with him, he was transformed into a chimera-type creature due to his desire for power and the malicious intentions of his master/great grandfather; he is 1/3 human, 1/3 demon/ and 1/3 golem. This gives him powerful magic, a rock-like skin, and enhanced strength and speed. He is also fairly skilled with a sword, earning him the nickname "Heartless Mystical Swordsman."

Since this is an exercise in absurdity, I will try to replicate Zelgadis, though it will not be a direct copy. Here's the skinny thus far:

Race will be human, to take advantage of the awesome favored class option. I will be using the crossblooded archetype as well as the wild blooded archetype; thus far, I'm thinking about Dragon and Infernal crossblood, using the Linnorm and Pit-touched wildblood archetypes. I'll also be taking Eldritch Heritage feats to get the Abbyssal bloodline abilities; in effect, I will be working on pumping my strength and con through the roof, as well as get some energy resistance and natural armor.

I'm not decided on feats just yet, but here is what I'm thinking thus far:

1st lvl: Skill focus (Diplomacy), plus human bonus (undecided)
3rd: Eldritch heritage (Abyysal)
5th: Obtain Familiar (From Complete Arcane)
7th: Improved familiar (Undecided on what just yet)
9th: Undecided, maybe craft rods
11th: Improved Eldritch Heritage

Some of these aren't set in stone, but the feats for Eldritch hertiage are a must for the build. If anyone has any other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

I have no clue about spells, being inexperienced with sorcerers; I take a hit to my spells known due to the crossblooded archetype, but the human favored class option more than makes up for it. Like feats, I would love to hear more suggestions for spell selection; I'll more than likely end up picking shadow conjuration/evocation.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Sayer,

Just curious, any idea yet on which bloodline level (3rd or 9th) you are taking for Improved Eldritch Heritage? Or will you eventually take Improved EH twice?

I am playing a Sorcerer as well right now and when I saw the Eldritch Heritage feat line I did my best to work them in. But I just don't have the space for them for the character I have in mind as they would push out my crafting and metamagic feats. Also, the Abyssal bloodline was what I was looking at, as well.

Good luck, and most importantly, have fun with your character!

Oh, don't forget, for the Eldritch Heritage prereq, you need to take Skill Focus for the associated skill in the bloodline. So in the case of Abyssal, it is Knowledge (Planes). So you would either need to switch out Skill Focus (Dimplomacy) for Skill Focus (Planes) or add it on.


My primary advice would be to get spells that target different saves, so that you can have something against brutes, casters, and dex-based targets.

Secondarily, get a battlefield control spell each level.

Third, vary your energy types and shapes. Don't go crazy on blasting, but keep it as an option. you probably don't need more than one direct damage spell per spell level, and some levels just don't have great options.

Fourth, coordinate with the other caster in the party. Don't duplicate what they can do. If you have a cleric with resist energy, don't take that spell.


If you are looking at pumping up your str and con, consider 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. Not only will you gain a +4 to str that stacks with everything, but you only lose one level of casting, and gain a useful bonus feat like toughness. You also gain some natural armor and a +1 to your BAB. It will slow down your infernal progression as well, but the abyssal and draconic stuff should be untouched. Also, it gives you a melee bite that does 1 1/2 str damage.

Cool concept though, he is about as sorcerer as it gets. I remember watching some of that series, and I will admit, that was probably the coolest character in there. And combat sorcerers can be fun to play.

Sovereign Court

Sorcerors have always struck me as Specialist. Perhaps concentrating on what concept is behind the blood line?

Sovereign Court

Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
I want to thank everyone who contributed in this thread; all of the advice has been extremely helpful. After reading this thread and others, I've decided to play a sorcerer based off of one of my favorite anime characters: Zelgadis Graywords from The Slayers.

My favorite part with him was actaully in the 1st series. Where he traps the fishman in a sphere of force, and then casts fire-ball inside of it. With the fishman still inside.


Sayer of Nay, are you planning on meleeing it up?

Taking Arcane Strike would be pretty big for that, as would Defensive Combat Training. Arcane Strike allows for some damage (that most likely won't make up for the 1/2 BAB, but eh), and DCT allows for you to use your hit dice as your BAB for CMD. Both should help in melee.

If you plan on wearing armor, Mithral Chain Shirt is your best friend for now.

Enlarge Person is a good bet for that.

Another feat you may be interested in (I know I was when I made my Dragon Disciple!) is Noxious Bite. It's meant for dragons, but...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/noxious-bite

Your bite attack deals 1 point of acid damage more, and enemies must make a fort save equal to your breath weapon's DC or be nauseated for 1+mCon rounds. But you need to be of a Linnorm with Acid Breath for that, and I don't think acid spells are all that abundant, making the Arcana not too useful.

I'm not sure what kind of orgy would give dragon blood, demon blood, *and* devil blood, but I'm sure it was rockin'.

Shadow Lodge

Unless you want to fill up on cantrips, I'd guess that the +HP is a better choice for your favored class for the first three levels.

So, spells known by numbers for your first three levels are:

1: 0th x 3, 1st x 1, Claws and Corrupting Touch
2: 0th x 4, 1st x 1
3: 0th x 4, 1st x 2 + Mage Armor or Protection from Good (So, Mage Armor). Dragon Resistances and Infernal Resistances. Also, more Claws.

For your human bonus, Expanded Arcana would be a reasonable choice to give you a second 1st level spell for those low levels. Otherwise, you'll want to focus on a spell you'll want to cast all day long. Silent Image, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Grease, and Obscuring Mist are all reasonable choices. If you go with Expanded Arcana, then I'd take a controlling spell (Silent Image, Grease, Obscuring Mist) and an attack spell (Color Spray, Burning Hands, Magic Missile).

As far as attack spells go, once you're third level and pick up Mage Armor, you might do well to pick up Chill Touch or Shocking Grasp in combat (leveraging that Strength/Con). I think Chill Touch and then Elemental Touch (with Claws) will probably do you the best, because you can cast it before you join the melee (as opposed to Shocking Grasp, which has an early cap and only one charge per casting--you'd be casting that in the middle of combat).


Hobbun wrote:

Sayer,

Just curious, any idea yet on which bloodline level (3rd or 9th) you are taking for Improved Eldritch Heritage?

Oh, don't forget, for the Eldritch Heritage prereq, you need to take Skill Focus for the associated skill in the bloodline. So in the case of Abyssal, it is Knowledge (Planes). So you would either need to switch out Skill Focus (Dimplomacy) for Skill Focus (Planes) or add it on.

I'm planning on taking the 9th level power, which will give me strength boosts. Combined with the pit-touched wildblood archetype for infernal, I will eventually come out with a +6 bonus to strength and constitution.

You're right about the skill focus; I must have been looking at the infernal bloodline when I posted last; skill focus (knowledge planes) instead of diplomacy.


Oterisk wrote:

If you are looking at pumping up your str and con, consider 4 levels of Dragon Disciple. Not only will you gain a +4 to str that stacks with everything, but you only lose one level of casting, and gain a useful bonus feat like toughness. You also gain some natural armor and a +1 to your BAB. It will slow down your infernal progression as well, but the abyssal and draconic stuff should be untouched. Also, it gives you a melee bite that does 1 1/2 str damage.

Cool concept though, he is about as sorcerer as it gets. I remember watching some of that series, and I will admit, that was probably the coolest character in there. And combat sorcerers can be fun to play.

I had considered eventually taking Dragon Disciple; having an additional +4 to strength sounds delicious. I'm not certain where to fit it in, though. I need to get to at least 9th level so that my other bloodlines start getting good. And if I go dragon disciple, if only ofr the first 4 levels, that means a level of casting lost, as well as the additional spells known for my human favored class bonus. Is it worth it?

Yeah, Zel is one of my favorite characters in Slayers; I've wanted to create a character based off of him for years, but only now have I found a method that doesn't require random monster templates.


Cheapy wrote:

Sayer of Nay, are you planning on meleeing it up?

Taking Arcane Strike would be pretty big for that, as would Defensive Combat Training. Arcane Strike allows for some damage (that most likely won't make up for the 1/2 BAB, but eh), and DCT allows for you to use your hit dice as your BAB for CMD. Both should help in melee.

If you plan on wearing armor, Mithral Chain Shirt is your best friend for now.

Enlarge Person is a good bet for that.

Another feat you may be interested in (I know I was when I made my Dragon Disciple!) is Noxious Bite. It's meant for dragons, but...

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/noxious-bite

Your bite attack deals 1 point of acid damage more, and enemies must make a fort save equal to your breath weapon's DC or be nauseated for 1+mCon rounds. But you need to be of a Linnorm with Acid Breath for that, and I don't think acid spells are all that abundant, making the Arcana not too useful.

I'm not sure what kind of orgy would give dragon blood, demon blood, *and* devil blood, but I'm sure it was rockin'.

It's a delicate balance; I don't expect the character to dominate in melee (being a sorcerer), but I do want him to hold his own. I'll probably end up taking heirloom weapon traith for some kind of big sword to use when in melee.

Those are some good suggestions for feats. I like the thought of noxious bite, although I would need to find a way to get a bite attack first. Arcane Strike might be a good feat to take at first level.


Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


I'm not sure what kind of orgy would give dragon blood, demon blood, *and* devil blood, but I'm sure it was rockin'.

It's a delicate balance; I don't expect the character to dominate in melee (being a sorcerer), but I do want him to hold his own. I'll probably end up taking heirloom weapon traith for some kind of big sword to use when in melee.

Those are some good suggestions for feats. I like the thought of noxious bite, although I would need to find a way to get a bite attack first. Arcane Strike might be a good feat to take at first level.

Well I don't think that you'll have to worry about being over powering in melee with a crossblooded pit-touched draconic sorcerer with the eldritch heritage feats to get the abyssal powers. If you take it sorcerer 12/dragon disciple 8 you'll be "ok" at melee, but mostly just a much tougher meal than most sorcerers having a +8 to Con and +10 to Str as well as a +7 natural armor bonus tends to do that.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


I'm not sure what kind of orgy would give dragon blood, demon blood, *and* devil blood, but I'm sure it was rockin'.

It's a delicate balance; I don't expect the character to dominate in melee (being a sorcerer), but I do want him to hold his own. I'll probably end up taking heirloom weapon traith for some kind of big sword to use when in melee.

Those are some good suggestions for feats. I like the thought of noxious bite, although I would need to find a way to get a bite attack first. Arcane Strike might be a good feat to take at first level.

Well I don't think that you'll have to worry about being over powering in melee with a crossblooded pit-touched draconic sorcerer with the eldritch heritage feats to get the abyssal powers. If you take it sorcerer 12/dragon disciple 8 you'll be "ok" at melee, but mostly just a much tougher meal than most sorcerers having a +8 to Con and +10 to Str as well as a +7 natural armor bonus tends to do that.

I don't know. I don't think it would be so bad as just a "tougher meal." The right spell choices could make an arcane caster a fairly decent melee combatant, or so I hear. We shall see.


I've heard whispers that the Word spells system in Ultimate Magic was of particular use for spontaneous casters. Is there any truth to that? I haven't read up on it yet, so I'm fairly clueless about it.


Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


I'm not sure what kind of orgy would give dragon blood, demon blood, *and* devil blood, but I'm sure it was rockin'.

It's a delicate balance; I don't expect the character to dominate in melee (being a sorcerer), but I do want him to hold his own. I'll probably end up taking heirloom weapon traith for some kind of big sword to use when in melee.

Those are some good suggestions for feats. I like the thought of noxious bite, although I would need to find a way to get a bite attack first. Arcane Strike might be a good feat to take at first level.

Well I don't think that you'll have to worry about being over powering in melee with a crossblooded pit-touched draconic sorcerer with the eldritch heritage feats to get the abyssal powers. If you take it sorcerer 12/dragon disciple 8 you'll be "ok" at melee, but mostly just a much tougher meal than most sorcerers having a +8 to Con and +10 to Str as well as a +7 natural armor bonus tends to do that.
I don't know. I don't think it would be so bad as just a "tougher meal." The right spell choices could make an arcane caster a fairly decent melee combatant, or so I hear. We shall see.

I suspect that even with all that extra strength you'll have a hard time of it with a BAB of 12, (with the build I presented) and that defense is going to be an issue even with the extra +7 natural armor.

Not huge insurmountable problems but problems all the same.


Wow, you are brave. I would rather swallow razor wire, pull it out my ass and floss myself to death than play a sorcerer.

That said one of the misconceptions about the class is that it lets inexperienced characters play primary spellcasters, the truth is it traps inexperienced players into a body that is stuck with the narrow choices, whereas the vastly superior in every way wizard can just go back to town and fix his mistakes.

I don't have allot to add, you are correct that Human is the only acceptable choice for a spontaneous caster race because of their favored class ability (though why anyone would choose sorcerer as a favored class is beyond me.) The only time it even slightly pays for you to take a PRC is if the PRC is made for your bloodline.

I would recommend buying a spell book and a pet marmot in case any of the glorious master race of arcane spell casters decide to cull you you would have the charisma to use the spell book as a prop to bluff the wizards into thinking you are one of them (as if a wizard could be fooled by a mere sorcerer).

Liberty's Edge

thomas nelson wrote:


I would recommend buying a spell book and a pet marmot in case any of the glorious master race of arcane spell casters decide to cull you you would have the charisma to use the spell book as a prop to bluff the wizards into thinking you are one of them (as if a wizard could be fooled by a mere sorcerer).

Have you ever had a look at OOTS' "Start of Darkness" book ? Because you really should :-P


Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Sayer_of_Nay wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


I'm not sure what kind of orgy would give dragon blood, demon blood, *and* devil blood, but I'm sure it was rockin'.

It's a delicate balance; I don't expect the character to dominate in melee (being a sorcerer), but I do want him to hold his own. I'll probably end up taking heirloom weapon traith for some kind of big sword to use when in melee.

Those are some good suggestions for feats. I like the thought of noxious bite, although I would need to find a way to get a bite attack first. Arcane Strike might be a good feat to take at first level.

Well I don't think that you'll have to worry about being over powering in melee with a crossblooded pit-touched draconic sorcerer with the eldritch heritage feats to get the abyssal powers. If you take it sorcerer 12/dragon disciple 8 you'll be "ok" at melee, but mostly just a much tougher meal than most sorcerers having a +8 to Con and +10 to Str as well as a +7 natural armor bonus tends to do that.
I don't know. I don't think it would be so bad as just a "tougher meal." The right spell choices could make an arcane caster a fairly decent melee combatant, or so I hear. We shall see.

If you have access to Orcs of Golarion, the Orc bloodline is a pretty good help to make a sorceror that can keep it's own in melee combat, by solid bloodline spells and abilities and also is a decent blaster with fire damage, coupled with demon or dragon bloodline in particular it seems a very decent option, though it depends on how close you want to stay to your thematic concept.

A 3.5 battle sorceror option might be a good idea if you want to go that route (either from unearthed arcana or complete mage)


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you can use Wordcasting out of Ultimate Magic, the Sorcerer becomes more powerful because one given spell is far more flexible. For instance, Conceal is both the 2nd level Invisibility Effect, and the 4th Level Invisibility Effect. You can combine various effects to make one higher level spell on the fly.

It's a much richer option for the Sorcerer and really plays off of the ability to cast spontaneously.


With the caveat that A) I prefer Sorcerers to Wizards and B) don't have Ultimate Magic yet, my advice is as follows:

1) Look at the bloodline spells you're going to get. You might as well plan on using those spells.

2) The human racial ability is very nice, but so is the half-orc one.

3) Pick one role to do well (blaster, buffer, utility, control) and pick a second role to supplement.

Here's a build I use regularly:

Half-Orc Draconic (Brass) Bloodline (7th level):

Alt Race Features: Bestial (+2 Perception) (Replaces Orc Ferocity)
Favored Class Bonus: +1/2 to Fire Based Spells (Taken 7 times, +3 net at 7th)

Traits: Highlander (Stealth is Class Skill, +1 to Stealth, +2 in rocky terrain), Gifted Adept (fireball) (+1 caster level on fireball spell)

Feats: Deepsight (Darkvision 120'); Elemental Spell [fire]; Spell Focus [evocation]; Improved Initiative (Bloodline), Expanded Arcana

Spells:
0: Message, Acid Splash, Resistance, Mage Hand; Ghost Sound; Prestidigitation; Detect Magic
1: Burning Hands (5d4+8, DC 18), Shield; Mage Armor (BL), Magic Missile (4 missiles, 1d4+1 each); Unseen Servant; Grease, DC 17, Alarm (14 hours duration) (8 spells/day)
2: Acid Arrow (2d4 Acid, VERY long ranged Range Touch Attack); Detect Thoughts (DC 18 Will to resist), Resist Energy (BL); Flaming Magic Missiles (4:si missiles, 1d4+5 each, DC N/A) [Metamagically Enhanced Magic Missile]; Web, DC 18, Glitterdust, DC 18 (8 spells/day)
3: Fireball (8d6+11, DC 20); Flaming Acid Arrow (3 rounds duration, 2d4+5 fire damage per round, DC N/A) [Metamagically Enhanced Acid Arrow]; Fly (BL), Haste; (5 spells/day).

(Glitterdust and Alarm stem from Expanded Arcana; the spell choice was skewed by the fact that we're doing an overland campaign with very little ability to buy expendable magic items like wands or scrolls.)

Bloodline Abilities:
1st: Claws: two full BAB attacks at 1d4+STR Bonus for 9 rounds/day.
1st: +1 damage per die on spells matching breath weapon type of bloodline [fire]
3rd: +1 Natural Armor Bonus, Energy Resistance [fire] 5.
5th: Claws do magical damage.
7th: Bloodline Feat


The black raven wrote:
thomas nelson wrote:


I would recommend buying a spell book and a pet marmot in case any of the glorious master race of arcane spell casters decide to cull you you would have the charisma to use the spell book as a prop to bluff the wizards into thinking you are one of them (as if a wizard could be fooled by a mere sorcerer).
Have you ever had a look at OOTS' "Start of Darkness" book ? Because you really should :-P

I do own that tome, and it did help inspire that last rant.


thomas nelson wrote:
That said one of the misconceptions about the class is that it lets inexperienced characters play primary spellcasters, the truth is it traps inexperienced players into a body that is stuck with the narrow choices, whereas easy mode wizard can just go back to town and fix his mistakes.

Fixed that for you (: But I otherwise agree. . .


Preston Poulter wrote:

If you can use Wordcasting out of Ultimate Magic, the Sorcerer becomes more powerful because one given spell is far more flexible. For instance, Conceal is both the 2nd level Invisibility Effect, and the 4th Level Invisibility Effect. You can combine various effects to make one higher level spell on the fly.

It's a much richer option for the Sorcerer and really plays off of the ability to cast spontaneously.

This intrigues me, and gives the sorcerer some glimmer of hope. So what you're saying is that it works similar to 3.5 psionics, where you can augment a spell and improve its effects? If so, then that is perfect for spontaneous casters. I'll try to steal my friends copy of Ultimate Magic and take a closer look at the system. Sounds promising.


Remco Sommeling wrote:


If you have access to Orcs of Golarion, the Orc bloodline is a pretty good help to make a sorceror that can keep it's own in melee combat, by solid bloodline spells and abilities and also is a decent blaster with fire damage, coupled with demon or dragon bloodline in particular it seems a very decent option, though it depends on how close you want to stay to your thematic concept.

I do have Orcs of Golarian, and have actually given some thought as to how to use it. I could replace the infernal bloodline with orc, and receive a massive strength by the end, but I think the bonus to constitution will be too important for the build.

Liberty's Edge

Doctor Smite wrote:

I would say that about 85-90% of the people who play wizards create a standard spell list that they prepare every day. Then leave a few slots as variables depending on the situation. But each wizard has their goto spells. This list changes very little in normal situations.

If you look at the previous wizards you play and the spells that they always select - Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Mirror image, Glitter dust, Haste/Slow, dim door, solid fog etc.. then those are likely the spells you would pick as a sorcerer.

Figure out what your go to spells are going to be and plan accordingly.

I often think of Sorceress that follow a theme as old Specialist wizards IE a necromancer.. ray of enfeeble, ray of exhaustion, false life, command undead, enervate, etc... Most specialist wizards more than generic wizards have an even tighter spell list that they choose daily with likely even fewer variations. So if I do a themed sorcerer I plan those out.

If it is easier for you to think of building a wizard spell list then do so. Take a 10th or 15th level wizard and build their spell list. Identify which spells you cannot do without. Then work backwards to fill in a sorcerers known spells. Eliminating any non-essential spells, or spells that don’t feel like go to spells.

A good idea, but you should also take into account which spells you will cast from a wand, as you do not have to get them on your known list. My favorite for this : Mage Armor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hobbun wrote:

Sayer,

Just curious, any idea yet on which bloodline level (3rd or 9th) you are taking for Improved Eldritch Heritage? Or will you eventually take Improved EH twice?

I don't think it's one of those feats you can take more than once.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You CAN do a pretty good job of filling a wizards role if you go human and take the arcane bloodline. A couple of the feat that grants 2 spells, 1 level lower is good if you have spare feats.

Here's a list I've used.

(You can see where the extrasare)

Spells Bloodline/Feat/New Arcana/Favored
Sources allowed are PFRPG Handbook, APG, Spell Compendium

0- (9)Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ghost Sound, Prestidigiation, Open/Close (No Read Magic- done with Spellcraft and take 20)

1-(5,1,2)Identify, Enlarge Person, Feather fall, Deep Breath, Protection against Evil, Benign Transposition, Color Spray, Grease (swap for Persistent Blade at 4- Rogues love grease since it makes opponents flatfooted)

2-(5,1,2)Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Rope Trick, Scorching Ray, Minor Image, Glitterdust (swap for See Invisibility at 6)

3-(4,1,1,2)Dispel Magic, Halt Undead, Fly, Haste, Deep Slumber (swap for Sleet Storm at 8), Slow (swap for Mass Curse of Impending Blades at 10), Gtr Magic Weapon, Fireball (Swap for Major Image at 20)

4-(4,1,2,2)Dimension Door, Dragon's Breath, Enervation, Boneshatter, Resilient Sphere, Dimensional Anchor, Black Tentacles (swap for Arcane Eye at 14), Confusion, Summon Monster 4 (swap for Stoneskin at 12)

5-(4,1,1,2,2)Overland Flight, Mass Fire Shield, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Dominate Person, Hungry Pit, Teleport, Lesser Planar Binding (swap for Telekinesis at 14), Major Creation, Telepathic Bond

6-(3,1,2) True Seeing, Flesh to stone, Gtr Dispel Magic, Fleshiver, Chain Lightning , Planar Binding (Swap for Gtr Anticipate Teleportation at 16)

7-(3,1,1,2,2) Gtr Teleport, Limited Wish, Brilliant Aura, Spell Turning, Gtr arcane sight, Mage’s Magnificent Mansion, Project Image, Waves of Exhaustion, Summon Monster 7 (swap for Plane Shift at 18)

8-(3,1,2, 3) Power Word Stun, Wrathful Castigation, Prismatic Wall, Discern Location, Polymorph any Object, Gtr Planar Binding, Maze, Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting

9-(3,1) Wish, Summon Monster 9, Time Stop, Mage’s Disjunction


LazarX wrote:
Hobbun wrote:

Sayer,

Just curious, any idea yet on which bloodline level (3rd or 9th) you are taking for Improved Eldritch Heritage? Or will you eventually take Improved EH twice?

I don't think it's one of those feats you can take more than once.

Actually, you can take Improved Eldritch Heritage more than once, It's the only one of that feat tree that allows it, however. So it would be possible, if you had the feats available, to get the 3rd and pth level power.

As for my character, I'll probably just take the 9th level. The 3rd isn't really much to write home about, IMO.


STR Ranger wrote:

You CAN do a pretty good job of filling a wizards role if you go human and take the arcane bloodline. A couple of the feat that grants 2 spells, 1 level lower is good if you have spare feats.

Here's a list I've used.

(You can see where the extrasare)

Spells Bloodline/Feat/New Arcana/Favored
Sources allowed are PFRPG Handbook, APG, Spell Compendium

0- (9)Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Mending, Ghost Sound, Prestidigiation, Open/Close (No Read Magic- done with Spellcraft and take 20)

1-(5,1,2)Identify, Enlarge Person, Feather fall, Deep Breath, Protection against Evil, Benign Transposition, Color Spray, Grease (swap for Persistent Blade at 4- Rogues love grease since it makes opponents flatfooted)

2-(5,1,2)Invisibility, Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image, Alter Self, Rope Trick, Scorching Ray, Minor Image, Glitterdust (swap for See Invisibility at 6)

3-(4,1,1,2)Dispel Magic, Halt Undead, Fly, Haste, Deep Slumber (swap for Sleet Storm at 8), Slow (swap for Mass Curse of Impending Blades at 10), Gtr Magic Weapon, Fireball (Swap for Major Image at 20)

4-(4,1,2,2)Dimension Door, Dragon's Breath, Enervation, Boneshatter, Resilient Sphere, Dimensional Anchor, Black Tentacles (swap for Arcane Eye at 14), Confusion, Summon Monster 4 (swap for Stoneskin at 12)

5-(4,1,1,2,2)Overland Flight, Mass Fire Shield, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Dominate Person, Hungry Pit, Teleport, Lesser Planar Binding (swap for Telekinesis at 14), Major Creation, Telepathic Bond

6-(3,1,2) True Seeing, Flesh to stone, Gtr Dispel Magic, Fleshiver, Chain Lightning , Planar Binding (Swap for Gtr Anticipate Teleportation at 16)

7-(3,1,1,2,2) Gtr Teleport, Limited Wish, Brilliant Aura, Spell Turning, Gtr arcane sight, Mage’s Magnificent Mansion, Project Image, Waves of Exhaustion, Summon Monster 7 (swap for Plane Shift at 18)

8-(3,1,2, 3) Power Word Stun, Wrathful Castigation, Prismatic Wall, Discern Location, Polymorph any Object, Gtr Planar Binding, Maze, Clenched Fist, Horrid Wilting...

That's a really good list, actually; offense and defensive capabilities while also supplying plenty of utility magic. Well done!

I think the problem with filling the wizards role is that it can change from day to day. Really, what is the wizards ultimate role in the game? If we can figure that out, we can figure out whether or not a sorcerer can fill it.


So when I posted my Zelgadis knock-off, I had determined to take obtain familiar and Improved familiar, seeing as many of those familiars offer some nifty benefits. Now, however, I'm having second thoughts. It would take two of my precious few feats to pull that off, and the sorcerer is pretty feat starved (I don't count the bloodline feats, mainly because most of them aren't all that useful, and the list is painfully small. I mean, improved unarmed strike? Really?).

What do you think? If I decide not to take the familiar feats, that will free up two feats for metamagic or extra arcana. Thoughts?


For bloodline feats you really need to take a look at them and see if any are even situationally useful. For my Stormborn Sorcerer in Serpent's Skull I think I ended up taking Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude with the bonus feat.


Jason Ellis 350 wrote:
For bloodline feats you really need to take a look at them and see if any are even situationally useful. For my Stormborn Sorcerer in Serpent's Skull I think I ended up taking Lightning Reflexes or Great Fortitude with the bonus feat.

Metamagic feats, combat casting, toughness and improved initiative tend to be winners for me.


Add in stuff that increases saves (for me anyways). Extra defenses against things that take you out of the fight is always a good thing.


An update post. The game has been changed. We shall now be resuming our year old Legacy of Fire game, picking up where we left off (died) with new characters. I'm happy about this because I really enjoyed the campaign before a few stupid decisions caused a party wipe. So...

The character concept is still the same: trying to develop a Zelgadis rip-off. Game starts at 5th level and we are using a 25 point buy. I'll need advice with this build because:

1. Based on the concept, I need to hold my own in melee without sacrificing (too much) casting ability. I'd like advice on stat distribution.

2. I could use any tips out there to let me boost my chances of hitting in melee; the plan thus far is to pump my strength as high as possible. Any feats, traits, or random spells I should know to accomplish this?

3. I'd also like any tips for the Legacy of Fire (without spoilers) that might come in handy. How often do undead show up, if at all? Is fire resistance/immunity common? Things like that. This will help me determine my spells.

Right now, I'm trying to weigh the pro's and cons of going into Dragon Disciple versus going full sorcerer, and could use some opinions on the matter. In addition, I'm thinking of dabbling in wordcasting, via the Experimental Caster feat. Any thoughts as to which word spells I should pick, if any? Thanks all.

Shadow Lodge

So, you're still going to be a human Crossblooded Draconic/Abyssal?

If you don't want the familiar, don't take it, and get two feats instead. Definitely a reasonable trade-off. Then you can start first level with Toughness and Arcane Strike, which is kind of like half of +2 CON and +2 STR. One of the benefits of the sorcerer is that you don't need a bunch of extra stuff to do what you can do, so anything that pushes that is better. Combat Casting is key for a melee sorcerer, for obvious reasons--you're actually trying to have your opponents next to you. I'd make that your 3rd level feat.

Make the decision early if you ever plan to be an armored caster. If you plan on someday wearing armor, then stick with Shield instead of Mage Armor. I personally prefer Still Spell to Arcane Armor Training. You lose a spellcasting level with whatever you're casting, but you can wear even heavy armor and keep casting without problem.

The big way the sorcerer gets high attack bonuses is by using touch spells and just ignoring the opponent's armor. Shocking Grasp is still good through 5th, but it caps early and you have to cast it again with every attack. I prefer Chill Touch because you get 1 successful touch per level and it scales infinitely. So, you can stack it with a natural attack, like your Claws. When using Claws, you're not hitting the touch AC, though... so amulet bonuses and stacking conditions are your friends.

Study the Bad Touch Cleric for ideas, as well.


I agree with InVinoVeritas on the armor issue...if you were a wizard. But since you are a sorcerer, and the option is either "full round casting of every spell due to Still Spell" or "swallow a feat and be able to wear nice armor", I'd go with the real armor.

Have you thought about the Battle Sorcerer? It sounds like exactly what you're looking for. Lose some spells, gain some fighting ability (including one martial weapon proficiency and the ability to cast in Light Armor with no penalty!).


InVinoVeritas wrote:

So, you're still going to be a human Crossblooded Draconic/Abyssal?

Make the decision early if you ever plan to be an armored caster. If you plan on someday wearing armor, then stick with Shield instead of Mage Armor. I personally prefer Still Spell to Arcane Armor Training. You lose a spellcasting level with whatever you're casting, but you can wear even heavy armor and keep casting without problem.

The big way the sorcerer gets high attack bonuses is by using touch spells and just ignoring the opponent's armor. Shocking Grasp is still good through 5th, but it caps early and you have to cast it again with every attack. I prefer Chill Touch because you get 1 successful touch per level and it scales infinitely. So, you can stack it with a natural attack, like your Claws. When using Claws, you're not hitting the touch AC, though... so amulet bonuses and stacking conditions are your friends.

Study the Bad Touch Cleric for ideas, as well.

At this point, I'm going with Dragon/Infernal bloodline, with Abyssal using the Eldritch Heritage feat chain. Unless something else pops up that completely wows me.

As for armor, for the early levels, I will be relying on a mithril shirt for AC; I'll have access to the Magic Item Compendium, and will thus take get the shirt enchanted with Twilight, which cuts 10% of the ASF, effectively nullifying that issue. Combined with a shield spell, I'll be alright until the higher levels, at which point displacement and the like will be my defense.

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