You are a celestial sorcerer.
Oh no, a zombie has appeared!
You zap it with your heavenly fire!
The zombie is good.
What happens?
Is the healing positive energy and thus harms the undead? Is it untyped (which would make it unique as the only untyped magical healing in the game as far as I know)?
There are no good zombies, or good undead in general in the Pathfinder RPG.
How about zapping a good dhampir, then?
There are no good zombies, or good undead in general in the Pathfinder RPG.
Theoretically it is possible to have a good lich, but very unlikely. :)
Zombies can't be good though, as they are mindless creatures animated by evil energies.
In any case, nothing in that ability description states that it's a positive energy effect and in fact it works differently compared to other abilities that utilize positive energy.
I would rule that undead, regardless of their alignment, are inherently evil creations and as such are harmed by heavenly fire.
That would be my interpretation.
In the case of a good Dhampir, I think that heavenly fire should work as healing.
You are a celestial sorcerer.
Oh no, a zombie has appeared!
You zap it with your heavenly fire!
The zombie is good.
What happens?
Is the healing positive energy and thus harms the undead? Is it untyped (which would make it unique as the only untyped magical healing in the game as far as I know)?
There are no suggestion in description of Heavenly Fire that undead are treated any different, so per RAW it would heal good undead and harm evil undead. I don't know if that's really the intention though, and think it would be a valid interpretation that undead are always damaged by the ability, no matter their alignment.
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It would heal good undead and not do anything at all to neutral undead, protestations of "NO GOOD UNDEAD EVER" be damned.
Where cure and channelling are grabbing hold of positive energy that plays by its set of rules, heavenly fire is dependant only on "good/evil".
What better way to show that such a being is truly good than to have it not only survive celestial fire made of pure good goodness, but also to be invigorated by it? Thematically, that's awesome.
(playing a celestial sorcerer using that ability on my dhampir paladin half-brother soon)
I disagree with the "no good undead" comment.
If some DM wants some undead that aren't evil, go for it.Why not have fun with the worshipers of some good god whom were slaughtered in their temple by an evil cult raise up for justice.
James Jacobs commented once that they went for 'all undead are evil' approach when they designed pathfinder.
Good undead are an interesting concept, which can lead to a lot of depth, but currently pathfinder does not support non evil undead in it's presentation.
It's really not that big of an issue anyway as you can just ignore that little bit of information and play the game as you like it.
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Good undead are an interesting concept, which can lead to a lot of depth, but currently pathfinder does not support non evil undead in it's presentation.
Not true. The ghost template does not change a creature's alignment, nor does it require the base creature to be evil. So there is at least one example of Pathfinder supporting the use of potentially good undead.
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Good ol' ghosts. :)
Another interesting bit of canon to note:
In Classic Horrors Revisited, there's a sidebar explaining why mindless undead in Golarion are always evil without any exceptions unlike intelligent undead and fiends, which have rare exceptions for their typical alignments.
That leaves the gate wide open for GMs and players alike to have good undead work in their games while still fitting seamlessly into canon. :)
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There are no good zombies, or good undead in general in the Pathfinder RPG.
Summary: Alignment listed for a given creature is the norm and can vary based upon the need of the campaign. It should be rare for unintelligent monsters (Int 1 or 2) to be other than neutral. It should be rare for outsiders to vary; their alignment is inherent and their being and tough to change.
Pathfinder isn't Golarion. Paizo may present a particular the undead of Golarian in a particular light. GMs creating content for their games in Golarion might want to stick to that idea if consistency is important to them. GMs playing in other worlds are left to their own creative devices. The undead creature type says nothing about alignment; if PF undead were all evil, this is where it would be.
Disclaimer: I personally don't do the Good Undead thing.
Steven Erikson's Tales of the Malazan Empire novels have some outstanding examples of non-evil undead.
CJ
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Now is when I point out that there are at least two different non-evil liches in Golarion. :P
You may now commence arguing if they started off as exceptions to the rule, or changed their alignment subsequent to becoming liches.
Generally speaking there are some minor differences between generic PFRPG handling on the topic and some instances on Golarion (or instances where the editors may yet retcon a freelancer boo hiss if the topic is revisited). For instance the lich thing (one lairing in the negative energy plane and just wanting to be left alone, and another rumored to be lairing in the conflicted warzone that is Aroden's former deific domain). Another example are the sceaduinar as presented in Bestiary 2 (NE in PFRPG) and in The Great Beyond (explicitely non-evil, just xenophobic and essentially made of fantasy antimatter - don't poke them, nothing positive comes of it).
Mind you, the situation may always be clarified in each circumstance that arises as behooves the Paizo guys. :)
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Celestial fire is not positive energy. If you are good you are healed, if you are evil you take damage, if you are neutral nothing happens. Your alignment is the only thing that matters. The argument over whether there are good undead is meaningless in this question.
Heavenly Fire (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash a ray of heavenly fire as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. Against evil creatures, this ray deals 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. This damage is divine and not subject to energy resistance or immunity. This ray heals good creatures of 1d4 points of damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. A good creature cannot benefit from your heavenly fire more than once per day. Neutral creatures are neither harmed nor healed by this effect. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
The damage is direct divine energy.
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The implication of non evil liches implies the idea of an absolutely baffled paladin who just whiffed a smite evil.
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The "always evil" argument is usually just a flimsy excuse for wanton violence against unliving individuals. It's usually followed up with anecdotal evidence and hyperbolic stories.
Are there not mortal serial killers who commit heinous crimes, and armies of mortals who commit horrific war crimes but still totally get their own hobgoblin nation?
And yeah, heavenly for doesn't care about mortem status, just alignment. Doesn't make going around blasting selfish peasants okay, so neither should blasting mindless (but technically evil) zombies.
PS: The Thread Necromancer's Guild is still recruiting.
Zombies can't be good though, as they are mindless creatures animated by evil energies.you could have Wretched Curator and res without evil energies
Wretched Curator did not exist ten years ago when this debate was last active.
Removing the Evil descriptor from the spell does not stop Zombies from being Evil. The Evil energies won't affect the caster, but the Zombies still default to Evil.
My official ruling is that "targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack" means that if you target a non-foe, you do not have to roll to hit. This makes it more useful for healing.
The implication of non evil liches implies the idea of an absolutely baffled paladin who just whiffed a smite evil.
It really opens a lot of questions.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
So, it's very questionable if you would get the bonus damage to undead. My guess is that the bonus damage isn't intended to apply. But that ability to ignore DR? I guess you can use that on anything. It doesn't seem to have an alignment restriction.
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The implication of non evil liches implies the idea of an absolutely baffled paladin who just whiffed a smite evil.It really opens a lot of questions.
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.So, it's very questionable if you would get the bonus damage to undead. My guess is that the bonus damage isn't intended to apply. But that ability to ignore DR? I guess you can use that on anything. It doesn't seem to have an alignment restriction.
Let's try bolding something different:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
The bolded part is the key to all the ability. Without it, nothing works.
Plus note the text in the last part you bolded:
"is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess."
Two different phrases, divided by a period (or full stop). They aren't linked.
Two different phrases, divided by a period (or full stop). They aren't linked.The "If the target is evil" and "regardless of the target smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess," are also divided by a period (more than one even). Do you claim they are not linked?
If so I have misread your arguement. If that is not your claim your arguement is significantly flawed.
What they are getting at is the following...
Smite evil deals bonus damage to evil creatures...
Outsiders of the evil subtype, evil dragons, and undead take double damage.
Smite evil ignores DR of all targets.
That breaks down in reverse as
Smite evil damage (what damage?) ignores DR...
Specific creature types take double damage (what damage?)
Evil creatures take bonus damage equal to the Paladins charisma (that damage).
So the creature must be evil in the first place to even take the damage, then after the damage is defined for the creature, the other effects are applied.
Then why say “regardless of the target”? If the target must be evil, then it can’t be regardless.
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Then why say “regardless of the target”? If the target must be evil, then it can’t be regardless.
Or regardless can refer to it being " an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead". My point is that you are trying to get an ability that is meant to help to fight against evil and to turn it into an ability that works (partially) against non-evil targets.
The ability text can be written more clearly, but you need to distort it mightly to say that it works against non-evil targets.
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Two different phrases, divided by a period (or full stop). They aren't linked.The "If the target is evil" and "regardless of the target smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess," are also divided by a period (more than one even). Do you claim they are not linked?
If so I have misread your arguement. If that is not your claim your arguement is significantly flawed.
What they are getting at is the following...
Smite evil deals bonus damage to evil creatures...
Outsiders of the evil subtype, evil dragons, and undead take double damage.
Smite evil ignores DR of all targets.That breaks down in reverse as
Smite evil damage (what damage?) ignores DR...
Specific creature types take double damage (what damage?)
Evil creatures take bonus damage equal to the Paladins charisma (that damage).So the creature must be evil in the first place to even take the damage, then after the damage is defined for the creature, the other effects are applied.
Interesting breakdown.
Broke down that way it can be read as saying that only the extra damage added by smite evil bypasses all DR.I think all the damage if the attack bypasses the DR, but interesting not the less.
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What they are getting at is the following...
Smite evil deals bonus damage to evil creatures...
Outsiders of the evil subtype, evil dragons, and undead take double damage.
Smite evil ignores DR of all targets.That breaks down in reverse as
Smite evil damage (what damage?) ignores DR...
Specific creature types take double damage (what damage?)
Evil creatures take bonus damage equal to the Paladins charisma (that damage).That is not how it functions, at all.
So the creature must be evil in the first place to even take the damage, then after the damage is defined for the creature, the other effects are applied.How about we break this down another way.
Paladin uses smite evil on target X. If target X is evil it gets bonus damage applied to it. If target X is of certain creature types it gets additional bonus damage. Regardless of targets, any DR is is bypassed.
So you would go
Is statement 1 true? Yes or No.
Is statement 2 true? Yes or No.
Statement 3 is automatically true.Edited because me trying to be glib came off as being an ass.
Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
Chell Raighn idea is that the damage from smite evil, not the damage from the whole attack bypass all DR.
It works similarly to your idea that bypassing DR is separated from "If the target is evil". Take a piece of the text and use only it.I fail to see how you can disregard that kind of argument, as you use it.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The last line of the ability says if the target isn't evil the ability doesn't work at all.
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In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.The last line of the ability says if the target isn't evil the ability doesn't work at all.
Perfect, thanks for the citation.