I will post once in this thread.
I am insulted by those of you who are comparing those who are celebrating the death of arguably the epitome of evil in our day to those who celebrated the deaths of 1000s of innocents after 9/11.
There is no comparison, they are not related and you insult the 1000s of innocent victims by even doing such a comparison.
Bin Laden death was justified; those who are celebrating his death are justified in doing so, just as the millions who celebrated Hitler’s death. When a Man of such Evil leaves our world it is times to celebrate that departure in your own way not argue among each other and compare us to those that celebrate death of the innocent.
I don't believe in good and evil.
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If the victims families get closure that's great. I'm just saying if we celebrate his death how are we any different than the people who celebrated the deaths of the 9-11 victims in the first place. We as a nation are supposed to better than that.Bin Laden was an evil bastard and deserved to die but to celebrate his death is just as bad as making a martyr out him.I WILL celebrate his death and if that makes me a so-called "bad person", well, I've heard worse (e.g, geek, nerd, slanty-eyes, four-eyes, f#~, weirdo, etc.)
Because there is a difference between celebrating the death of a person directly involved in the death and destruction, and celebrating mass murder. Note no-one celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians killed in error.
Because there is a difference between celebrating the death of a person directly involved in the death and destruction, and celebrating mass murder. Note no-one celebrating the deaths of innocent civilians killed in error.If the victims families get closure that's great. I'm just saying if we celebrate his death how are we any different than the people who celebrated the deaths of the 9-11 victims in the first place. We as a nation are supposed to better than that.Bin Laden was an evil bastard and deserved to die but to celebrate his death is just as bad as making a martyr out him.I WILL celebrate his death and if that makes me a so-called "bad person", well, I've heard worse (e.g, geek, nerd, slanty-eyes, four-eyes, f#~, weirdo, etc.)
I can celebrate the deaths of the innocent, if you'd like. That way no one feels left out!
Director of Brand Strategy
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I thought about this whole situation a lot last night while lying in bed and I think I figured out why it bothers me so much. The reason is two-fold.
First, it has provided a sense of closure for me, but I'd already sort of sealed up the emotions and trauma of 9/11 sometime in the last 10 years. Bin Laden's assassination has reopened a lot of old wounds for me, and while they're likely to heal properly this time instead of being glossed over, they're still open again, and that's not something I think prompts celebration in the streets and chants of USA.
Second, the operation that brought about Osama's death was not an isolated incident; it was part of a much larger war. And I don't think war should ever be so jubilantly celebrated. Whether it were a victory on a field of battle or a special ops assassination, it should be treated with the respect war deserves. The only time I'm ok with people celebrating war is when it is totally and undeniably over. Last night was no VE or VJ day; there are still thousands of US servicemen and women in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and until they're home, I feel that jubilation is inappropriate.
Am I glad that Osama's no longer out there plotting the next attack against us? Sure. Am I glad he's dead? Yeah, I guess. It seems a fitting punishment for the pain he caused so many over the years. Do I think it's time for unfettered displays of patriotism and celebration? Not so much.
That's all. Said my piece. Moving on.
This is just a reminder to everyone to keep things civil, and to avoid bashing entire nations/religions/ethnicities because of the actions of a few.
No posts have been removed, but some things have been said that are frankly uncalled for.
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I thought about this whole situation a lot last night while lying in bed and I think I figured out why it bothers me so much. The reason is two-fold.
First, it has provided a sense of closure for me, but I'd already sort of sealed up the emotions and trauma of 9/11 sometime in the last 10 years. Bin Laden's assassination has reopened a lot of old wounds for me, and while they're likely to heal properly this time instead of being glossed over, they're still open again, and that's not something I think prompts celebration in the streets and chants of USA.
Second, the operation that brought about Osama's death was not an isolated incident; it was part of a much larger war. And I don't think war should ever be so jubilantly celebrated. Whether it were a victory on a field of battle or a special ops assassination, it should be treated with the respect war deserves. The only time I'm ok with people celebrating war is when it is totally and undeniably over. Last night was no VE or VJ day; there are still thousands of US servicemen and women in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and until they're home, I feel that jubilation is inappropriate.
Am I glad that Osama's no longer out there plotting the next attack against us? Sure. Am I glad he's dead? Yeah, I guess. It seems a fitting punishment for the pain he caused so many over the years. Do I think it's time for unfettered displays of patriotism and celebration? Not so much.
That's all. Said my piece. Moving on.
Good points all around, Mark. Well said.
I'm sorry those wounds of yours were opened again. Hopefully this will bring to you and all those who suffer similarly some small measure of peace.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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The US killed a man in another country. "Tragically, he was killed when resisting arrest..." they'll say. Then they bury him at sea the very same day, "so he can't become a martyr".
This stinks.
One, if the US really had killed him now, they would have taken the body to be showed off, come hell or high water. NOTHING would have stood in the way of being able to prove he has really been killed.
Two, if this was a lie, that means he's either already dead, or he's not.
Three, if he wasn't dead, they would risk him showing up somewhere in a few years' time, so he must be dead.
Four, if I remember correctly, he needed dialysis back in 2001. Expected survival in that situation is... pissy. A few years. I doubt getting health care back in some Afghan caves would have improved things.
Five, the timing is impeccable, with the end of the US military presence closing in, and Obama needing popularity figures.
Six, the decision to do this was likely a prelude to war in Pakistan. Within days, the accusations of sheltering him will fly. Either Pakistan will then give the US whatever they want, or there will be war. Again. Yay. Against a nuclear power.
If I were you, americans, I would be VERY sad today.
One, as dumb conspiracy theories made up on the fly go, this is particularly dumb.
Two, since bin laden was made of high tensile steel, he couldn't have been killed by mere mortal bullets anyway, which is why the US government had to use depleted uranium super bullets or else he would just rise again as a zombie two days later.
Three, zombies exist, and the world is hollow. If it wasn't hollow, why haven't the zombies overrun all of humanity?
Four, if it's so easy to fake the killing of bin laden, why didn't anyone have the bright idea of doing that, oh, I don't know, before an important election (04 president, 06 midterms, 08 president, 10 midterms) or maybe wait until another important election arrives (like 12, maybe)?
There's a fine line between paranoid, and down right delusional and ignorant. I'd tell you where the line is, but I'm part of a secret cabal devoted to keeping it hidden.
Welcome to the Yellow Dingo wing of the Paizo boards. May your opinions forever merit the same consideration and thoughtful comment that his do.
I thought about this whole situation a lot last night while lying in bed and I think I figured out why it bothers me so much. The reason is two-fold.
First, it has provided a sense of closure for me, but I'd already sort of sealed up the emotions and trauma of 9/11 sometime in the last 10 years. Bin Laden's assassination has reopened a lot of old wounds for me, and while they're likely to heal properly this time instead of being glossed over, they're still open again, and that's not something I think prompts celebration in the streets and chants of USA.
Second, the operation that brought about Osama's death was not an isolated incident; it was part of a much larger war. And I don't think war should ever be so jubilantly celebrated. Whether it were a victory on a field of battle or a special ops assassination, it should be treated with the respect war deserves. The only time I'm ok with people celebrating war is when it is totally and undeniably over. Last night was no VE or VJ day; there are still thousands of US servicemen and women in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and until they're home, I feel that jubilation is inappropriate.
Am I glad that Osama's no longer out there plotting the next attack against us? Sure. Am I glad he's dead? Yeah, I guess. It seems a fitting punishment for the pain he caused so many over the years. Do I think it's time for unfettered displays of patriotism and celebration? Not so much.
That's all. Said my piece. Moving on.
Good points all around, Mark. Well said.
I'm sorry those wounds of yours were opened again. Hopefully this will bring to you and all those who suffer similarly some small measure of peace.
+1
+1I thought about this whole situation a lot last night while lying in bed and I think I figured out why it bothers me so much. The reason is two-fold.
First, it has provided a sense of closure for me, but I'd already sort of sealed up the emotions and trauma of 9/11 sometime in the last 10 years. Bin Laden's assassination has reopened a lot of old wounds for me, and while they're likely to heal properly this time instead of being glossed over, they're still open again, and that's not something I think prompts celebration in the streets and chants of USA.
Second, the operation that brought about Osama's death was not an isolated incident; it was part of a much larger war. And I don't think war should ever be so jubilantly celebrated. Whether it were a victory on a field of battle or a special ops assassination, it should be treated with the respect war deserves. The only time I'm ok with people celebrating war is when it is totally and undeniably over. Last night was no VE or VJ day; there are still thousands of US servicemen and women in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, and until they're home, I feel that jubilation is inappropriate.
Am I glad that Osama's no longer out there plotting the next attack against us? Sure. Am I glad he's dead? Yeah, I guess. It seems a fitting punishment for the pain he caused so many over the years. Do I think it's time for unfettered displays of patriotism and celebration? Not so much.
That's all. Said my piece. Moving on.
Good points all around, Mark. Well said.
I'm sorry those wounds of yours were opened again. Hopefully this will bring to you and all those who suffer similarly some small measure of peace.
+1 here as well.
I don't know about the others, but I'm well paid in pigmy brains and gouda cheese to let you mouth breathers continue existing.Three, zombies exist, and the world is hollow. If it wasn't hollow, why haven't the zombies overrun all of humanity?
this month's payment with a small bonus.
Sometimes I envy those who do believe in Good and Evil. It probably makes situations like this one a lot easier to process.
A shot in the head and burial at sea. This was the best way to end it. Any other options would have endangered lives as Osama's followers tried to free him/recover his body.
Rule #2 - Double Tap
+1
Also, a lot of people are concentrating on the actual neutralization of OBL that they're forgetting that he was the head of this big whopping terrorist organization and he was probably sitting on The Mother-load of Terrorist Intelligence. I wonder what they pulled out of that mansion besides the body...
I'd bet we're going to see a lot more dead or captured T's over the next few months.
Sometimes I envy those who do believe in Good and Evil. It probably makes situations like this one a lot easier to process.
Nah...they don't believe in processing, either.
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I am getting used to being called paranoid and a conspiracy theorist. Everyone who doesn't buy Government Offal Opinion 1a gets that.
There is a difference between hearing something that sounds funny and saying "wait a minute, does that sound right," and taking the position that if the government says it than the opposite must be true.
But if you don't agree with me: Why did they bury him at sea the same day they killed him? What could have mattered more in that situation than getting him to where his death could have been proven without a doubt?
Simple answer is that Islamic tradition dictates that a person be buried within 24 hours of his death, and the ocean is the most convenient spot to bury someone where the people who follow his radical and distorted view of Islam can't find the body and claim his burial site as a shrine. Just because we were enemies in life it does not mean that we have to be disrespectful to him in death. At the risk of again invoking Godwin, even the Nazi war criminals were given proper burials after they were executed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Simple answer is that Islamic tradition dictates that a person be buried within 24 hours of his death, and the ocean is the most convenient spot to bury someone where the people who follow his radical and distorted view of Islam can't find the body and claim his burial site as a shrine. Just because we were enemies in life it does not mean that we have to be disrespectful to him in death. At the risk of again invoking Godwin, even the Nazi war criminals were given proper burials after they were executed.
I'm hearing reports that they were going to repatriate his remains to saudi Arabia, but they refused them. So burial at sea was the best option.*
*
My comment wasn't meant to be insulting to anyone. It was an honest statement; I don't believe in "good" or "evil" except as shared concepts invented by mankind.
If I thought he was "evil" I could do a little happy dance and be done with it. I never advocated his behavior or beliefs, honestly the only reason I care about his death at all is out of self-interest.
But there are so many questions at the base level that go unanswered. I still have questions about the basic motives of both sides in this conflict. No clear answer has ever been presented. This operation has only served to remind me of all that.
*irony nod to my username.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Ah, yes, Divinely sanctioned obedience. What leader wouldn't like that? Personally, that quote sounds like b!*$+@%& designed to tell the poor that they shouldn't uprise against the leaders that are squashing them because God put them there.
Make sure you leave out the rest of my post to make your point which I already addressed. Oh wait, that is what you did.
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One, as dumb conspiracy theories made up on the fly go, this is particularly dumb.
Two, since bin laden was made of high tensile steel, he couldn't have been killed by mere mortal bullets anyway, which is why the US government had to use depleted uranium super bullets or else he would just rise again as a zombie two days later.
Three, zombies exist, and the world is hollow. If it wasn't hollow, why haven't the zombies overrun all of humanity?
Four, if it's so easy to fake the killing of bin laden, why didn't anyone have the bright idea of doing that, oh, I don't know, before an important election (04 president, 06 midterms, 08 president, 10 midterms) or maybe wait until another important election arrives (like 12, maybe)?There's a fine line between paranoid, and down right delusional and ignorant. I'd tell you where the line is, but I'm part of a secret cabal devoted to keeping it hidden.
Welcome to the Yellow Dingo wing of the Paizo boards. May your opinions forever merit the same consideration and thoughtful comment that his do.
Hey now, Yellow Dingo maybe a bit of a kook, but like Kobold Cleaver he is our kook.
Plus when did we give him his own wing? Was it do to epic beard or string theory?
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Simple answer is that Islamic tradition dictates that a person be buried within 24 hours of his death, and the ocean is the most convenient spot to bury someone where the people who follow his radical and distorted view of Islam can't find the body and claim his burial site as a shrine. Just because we were enemies in life it does not mean that we have to be disrespectful to him in death. At the risk of again invoking Godwin, even the Nazi war criminals were given proper burials after they were executed.I'm hearing reports that they were going to repatriate his remains to saudi Arabia, but they refused them. So burial at sea was the best option.*
*** spoiler omitted **
White House Lawn Decoration is the best option.
Extremists will just use his custom built compound as a shrine.Sadly they shot him in the head so we can't make a nice cup out of his skull....
I'm just disapointed he was living in a Mansion not far from a Military Academy in Pakistan. I was really hoping we would find him in a Palace in Saudia Arabia or UAE.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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One thing disappoints me:
I may think President Obama is a less than decent man, and think his Presidency makes Dhimmy Carter's look warm and fuzzy in hindsight, but I'll give credit where it's due.
An evil man is dead and, to steal from a friend, is now receiving his 72 sturgeons. Can we not agree this is a good thing?
I'm still waiting to see a headline that says, "Osama Bin Shot." I did hear, though, through confidential sources that George Lucas is working with the US government to produce video that definitively proves that Osama shot first (you know, in case you have to explain why we killed Osama to your children).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm still waiting to see a headline that says, "Osama Bin Shot." I did hear, though, through confidential sources that George Lucas is working with the US government to produce video that definitively proves that Osama shot first (you know, in case you have to explain why we killed Osama to your children).
OK, the Lucas line made me laugh.
I've said he's 'Osama bin decomposing' for sometime. I was surprised he was alive.
I am insulted by those of you who are comparing those who are celebrating the death of arguably the epitome of evil in our day to those who celebrated the deaths of 1000s of innocents after 9/11.
I believe Osama felt equally righteous that we were the epitome of evil and that is what gives me pause.
I may think President Obama is a less than decent man…
Sorry to pick on you, Matthew, but your quote kind of helps demonstrate my concern. I am in no way trying to suggest you are as bad as Osama or trying to play the Godwin card here. It just seems too easy to go from Obama being less than a decent man to Obama is evil to let's dance if someone puts a round in his skull.
If Matthew and I can disagree on what a 'decent man' is, is it not equally reasonable to think we can disagree on what 'evil' is? I am guessing most of us here do not celebrate the murder of a 'non-evil' person. So why is it so easy to celebrate the murder of an 'evil' person if 'evil' is subjective?
Or what Evil Lincoln said.
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The more I read about the operation, the more interesting it is. Going from Detainee intelligence (Score one for Gitmo) with a nickname for a courier and ending up with Osama bin Fishfood is rather impressive. When you add we were in and out of Pakistan, w/o the government knowing... Well even Mossad has to be going 'Damn...'
+1.
Good job, CIA, SpecWarGru, and everyone else involved.
Now, just to figure out why they went and blabbed all about the "secret" mission...
Four, if I remember correctly, he needed dialysis back in 2001. Expected survival in that situation is... pissy. A few years. I doubt getting health care back in some Afghan caves would have improved things.Five, the timing is impeccable, with the end of the US military presence closing in, and Obama needing popularity figures.
My Dad had been on Dialysis for the past year or so, was lucky enough to find a matching kidney donor, and after the initial adjustment process of having a foreign organ, he's completely off dialysis and doing well. He doesn't have a "pissy" outlook at all. I'd say it's safe to say someone like Bin Laden, with all his devoted followers, they'd find a matching kidney donor pretty fast.
Secondly, he wasn't found in some cave. He was found in a mansion. Needless to say, he probably got all the medical coverage he needed just fine.
I'm still waiting to see a headline that says, "Osama Bin Shot."I wonder if we can get PMG to change the title of this thread...
Or HAS Bin Laden.
Secondly, he wasn't found in some cave. He was found in a mansion. Needless to say, he probably got all the medical coverage he needed just fine.
Technicality. There was a room that was designated as the man-cave. :p
I am sad to see Osama DOA. Not that it's a bad thing he's now feeding life at the bottom of the ocean. No, now I have to find someone else to be the first human test subject of my Hydrofluoric Acid IV Drip. I suppose I can mollify myself by believing that the guy was actually taken alive, but subsequently tried to steal with more chain than he could swim with.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I feel like I would about having to put down a rabid dog. When you do the kind of things Osama bin Laden did, you become something less than human. I'm glad he's not around to do more harm. I'm relieved. I wonder what the world would be like today if he had used his considerable mental and fiscal resources for good rather than evil.
Couple tangential points.
1. I hope no one is naive enough to throw their hands up in the air and say "OK, now we've won. War's over." There's a lot left to fix in Afghanistan.
2. Please don't impugn our service members that carried out this operation by referring to it as an "assassination." Osama bin Laden was an enemy combatant. In a time of war, you can kill enemy combatants, but you can't assassinate them.
3. IBTL.
I am sad to see Osama DOA. Not that it's a bad thing he's now feeding life at the bottom of the ocean. No, now I have to find someone else to be the first human test subject of my Hydrofluoric Acid IV Drip. I suppose I can mollify myself by believing that the guy was actually taken alive, but subsequently tried to steal with more chain than he could swim with.
Great, now I'm thinking about Bootstrap and Davy Jones' locker and seeing Pirates of the Caribbean 5: Jack Bin Lying.
Osama: "Welcome back to the locker Jack."
Jack: "Ahhhhhhh!"
If the bogeyman is dead, does the world desire a new bogeyman?
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I'm still waiting to see a headline that says, "Osama Bin Shot." I did hear, though, through confidential sources that George Lucas is working with the US government to produce video that definitively proves that Osama shot first (you know, in case you have to explain why we killed Osama to your children).
Al Jahzeera reported that ibn Laden was offered a chance to surrender and refused, and that is when he was shot. How he refused is not mentioned, but taking a shot at the SEALS would not surprise me.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I may think President Obama is a less than decent man…Sorry to pick on you, Matthew, but your quote kind of helps demonstrate my concern. I am in no way trying to suggest you are as bad as Osama or trying to play the Godwin card here. It just seems too easy to go from Obama being less than a decent man to Obama is evil to let's dance if someone puts a round in his skull.
If Matthew and I can disagree on what a 'decent man' is, is it not equally reasonable to think we can disagree on what 'evil' is? I am guessing most of us here do not celebrate the murder of a 'non-evil' person. So why is it so easy to celebrate the murder of an 'evil' person if 'evil' is subjective?
Or what Evil Lincoln said.
It's ok. I'm used to abuse. Two ex-wives, remember? :-)
And there is a difference to me between 'Matt thinks President Obama's a jerk.' and 'Matt thinks President Obama's skull should be used for a drinking cup.'
You may think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I may think he's Carter II (now with more terrorist support!) But I'm not calling for his head, and you're not calling for people to go blow up tea partiers in his name.
9/11 was evil The same as dropping walls on gays is evil, or stoning rape victims is evil. These are core tennets of wahabbist Islam though. There was a line in Highlander between Methos and Kronos. "I outgrew my angry adolessence a long time ago." That's part of what the west as a whole, and Christianity in general has done. We can take comfort that an evil man has gone to his reward. We don't parade his body in the streets. Likewise Christans believe in praying for the gay man* or the rape victim not dropping heavy objects on them. There's no grey area of targetting innocents**.
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Four, if I remember correctly, he needed dialysis back in 2001. Expected survival in that situation is... pissy. A few years. I doubt getting health care back in some Afghan caves would have improved things.Five, the timing is impeccable, with the end of the US military presence closing in, and Obama needing popularity figures.
My Dad had been on Dialysis for the past year or so, was lucky enough to find a matching kidney donor, and after the initial adjustment process of having a foreign organ, he's completely off dialysis and doing well. He doesn't have a "pissy" outlook at all. I'd say it's safe to say someone like Bin Laden, with all his devoted followers, they'd find a matching kidney donor pretty fast.
Secondly, he wasn't found in some cave. He was found in a mansion. Needless to say, he probably got all the medical coverage he needed just fine.
From my understanding, Bin Laden suffered from kidney stones, not "failure." The two are very different.
Great, now I'm thinking about Bootstrap and Davy Jones' locker and seeing Pirates of the Caribbean 5: Jack Bin Lying.Osama: "Welcome back to the locker Jack."
Jack: "Ahhhhhhh!"
Time to commission a YouTube video!
I am insulted by those of you who are comparing those who are celebrating the death of arguably the epitome of evil in our day to those who celebrated the deaths of 1000s of innocents after 9/11.I believe Osama felt equally righteous that we were the epitome of evil and that is what gives me pause.
I may think President Obama is a less than decent man…Sorry to pick on you, Matthew, but your quote kind of helps demonstrate my concern. I am in no way trying to suggest you are as bad as Osama or trying to play the Godwin card here. It just seems too easy to go from Obama being less than a decent man to Obama is evil to let's dance if someone puts a round in his skull.
If Matthew and I can disagree on what a 'decent man' is, is it not equally reasonable to think we can disagree on what 'evil' is? I am guessing most of us here do not celebrate the murder of a 'non-evil' person. So why is it so easy to celebrate the murder of an 'evil' person if 'evil' is subjective?
Or what Evil Lincoln said.
Evil is not subjective, our opinions are however.
The problem is that once the political message goes out these days, anyone not agreeing is immediately called paranoid and a conspiracy theorist. It does not paint a pretty picture for the future of certain countries that this is the case.
My point is: There is something in this story that truly stinks. It may be entirely true, if so, the american soldiers assassinating him is bad enough. If there is more to it, well, as you said, we will know how far this is going to be used. War against Pakistan? Perhaps. Either way, this is going to be blurted out every time people want to discuss shutting down Guantanamo and other abhorrent practices of this and the current american administration, only nobody will ever know WHAT information from Guantanamo lead to this operation.
Too convenient. Or: There is something funny about this.
I am insulted by those of you who are comparing those who are celebrating the death of arguably the epitome of evil in our day to those who celebrated the deaths of 1000s of innocents after 9/11.I believe Osama felt equally righteous that we were the epitome of evil and that is what gives me pause.
I may think President Obama is a less than decent man…Sorry to pick on you, Matthew, but your quote kind of helps demonstrate my concern. I am in no way trying to suggest you are as bad as Osama or trying to play the Godwin card here. It just seems too easy to go from Obama being less than a decent man to Obama is evil to let's dance if someone puts a round in his skull.
If Matthew and I can disagree on what a 'decent man' is, is it not equally reasonable to think we can disagree on what 'evil' is? I am guessing most of us here do not celebrate the murder of a 'non-evil' person. So why is it so easy to celebrate the murder of an 'evil' person if 'evil' is subjective?
Or what Evil Lincoln said.
Evil is not subjective, our opinions are however.
I disagree-evil is subjective.
Where they gonna bury him at?
Accordig to the news, they buried him at sea.
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Odd. I share your feelings. I was in on 9-11, and this has been a long time coming. But I don't feel we've gained any real victory here. It feels empty.I was in basic training on 9/11. I have served on active duty since then, through both wars. And I really just hope we can come home from both fronts soon.
Double +1