The only thread I found mentioning this was for the round 1 beta, and it's still listed this way in the round two.
For my first feat, I take Secret Stash Deed.
For 1 grit point, I can now pull free ammo out of my boot I forgot I'd picked up somewhere. Hilarious.
For my second feat, I take Signature Deed (Secret Stash), reducing the cost of the above to 0.
Great! Now I don't ever have to worry about buying/crafting the pricy ammo for my weird non-standard weapon of mine.
Of course, were I a munchkin, I could make the argument that there's nothing in the rules as written keeping me from shaking out my little bandana of infinite ammo over the counter at the general store and sell what falls out.
Really, the exploitable bit here is all on Secret Stash, since being able to turn a theoretical profit off a feat that's really just about non-magical goofy fun is messed up, and frankly, having the ability to pull infinite ammo from behind your ear and saving yourself all the associated bookkeeping is the only way I really see it being worthwhile anyway.
Best fix I can see to keep the flavor and utility without the stupid exploit is to allow it to only be used "in desperation." Defined as being in combat, with an unloaded weapon, and not having enough ammo for a full round action's worth of firing. Or in the case of special ammo, being out of that flavor let's you convert what you have on you to it on the fly.
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Or they can let the players do as they wish and let rule 0 do what it is supposed to do, namely patch up all the little holes that exist in the system like this.
Personally I am all for things like this, so that when I run into a player who tries to use them I let it slide once, from then on out they will only ever be causing problems for themselves and/or being openly ridiculed at the game table by the rest of the group for trying to win at D&D.
Except that as of round two it can only be down in combat.
Spend 1 grit point while in combat to recover
either 1 bullet and 1 dose of black powder or 1 alchemical
cartridge from a hidden stash on your person that you
had, until now, forgotten about. If the bullet and black
powder or the alchemical cartridges are normal shot,
you do not need to pay for the ammunition. If you want
to recover any other kind of ammunition, you must pay
for it with gold pieces from your character’s wealth.
bolding is mine
Huh. How the heck did I miss that? Still something to be said for restricting it to when you're otherwise out for thematic reasons but yeah, that kills the main abuse concern with it.
No one tell him about the crafting or performing skills...
Get a kitten in a cage and then keep rattling the cage to make it roll initiative on you.
Yeah this "exploit" totally works at first level. Just ignore the 'gunslinger level 11th' requirement for the Signature Deed and you're good to go.
/sarcasm
That's right up there with the monkey-in-a-barrel trick, Ice.
If the kitten doesn't roll initiative on you because the DM rules it is "helpless" because it is bound, take it out of it's cage and then intimidate it. In 1d6x10 minutes, it'll come back with the guards! Right in the book.
Foolproof.
That's right up there with the monkey-in-a-barrel trick, Ice.If the kitten doesn't roll initiative on you because the DM rules it is "helpless" because it is bound, take it out of it's cage and then intimidate it. In 1d6x10 minutes, it'll come back with the guards! Right in the book.
Foolproof.
XD < all I can say
Get a sorcerer friend to enter combat with you. Every turn, he tries to hit you with, say, touch of fatigue. And in the course of playing "tag" with him, forgotten ammo keeps piling at your feet!
All you people that seem to think this is an exploit seem to be forgetting something really important that with out there is no game, the DM.
All you people that seem to think this is an exploit seem to be forgetting something really important that with out there is no game, the DM.
Are you saying your DM gets pissy because your fighter uses his weapon training EVERY SINGLE FIGHT? Because that is just as much a class feature as secret stash. If it requires DM intervention then it probably needs fine tuning.
The first round gunslinger was great if you just ignore his flaws because the DM could change them.
I think the point being made is that no matter how hard you rules-lawyer this improbable situation (your "infinite ammo in my boot" scenario), the DM is still going to say "No, that's silly, nice try." Ignoring the fact that Sig Deed requires level 11, which was already mentioned, there's still a logical limit to how much "forgotten ammo" you could have rattling around in your pockets.
Rules-as-written, the In Combat caveat should be plenty to demonstrate the intent of this class feature. The flaw, if any, is in the common sense of any DM that would allow a player to shake unlimited ammo from his boot onto the store counter, not in the way the feature is written.
Damn there's a lot of munchkin going on in this thread. :/
DM's don't make the rules, true they are free to modify but when you have to change the mechanic completely it is a waste of book space and we have gone way past modifying.
Paizo is always saying they are trying to save space in books, getting rid of stupid broken mechanics will do that. They can use that space to write a much better more complete mechanic (or something like that). That is what the playtesting is for after all, not for determining what DM's will have to do to save their games.
Ow, that problem is a really serious one. One could really make unlimited gold this way, and probably sell it on ebay ... if only Pathfinder would ever be turned into an MMORPG.
Other than that, "in combat only" makes it okay for me. However I would understand to change it a bit, so that even the most RAW-only GM is protected from his players. Magic worlds are never 100% logical and consistent, however they are magical and fluff over laws of physic seem a fair trade of for a fantasy game.
The problem is that effectively fixing this ability also means removing it. There is no "you can get some ammo for free" ability that won't also entail either the sillyness of "it disappears in 1 round if unused" without potentially being a free money well.
Unless the DM has the GMG and uses it against his players. As a weapon.
GMG to the face for intentionally trying to break the game and game the system = the way to go. Hit them with the spine, it'll hurt more and maybe cause some brain cells to collide occasionally. Preferably before they try such a stunt again.
The ability to snag a round "out of your boot" occasionally is a neat frill given to the class with the most expensive ammo in the game currently. I would rather have it written with the idea that your DM has a brain and let those folks who'd prefer not to game the system use it correctly than to have it removed/neutered because some folks just can't help but be abusive. Let DM's handle abusive players. Lets keep interesting creative rules.
-S
wouldn't a simple fix be to allow for the retrieving of more ammo, but you pay the cost (reduced as it is for a gunslinger with Gunsmith) of the ammo. Maybe something like Wis mod in rounds per grit spent, functioning like the component pouches of wizards and sorcerers, pay your money, get your effect. No freebies and the feat still remains useful allowing the Slinger to trade gold just jingling in their pocket for bang! bang!
I think it's fixed as-is. It works in combat. Torturing a kitten is not combat.
Railroading GM! RAILROAD! CHOO CHOO! You won't let my kitten cohort roll initiative? STOP PLAYING MY CHARACTER!
I think it's fixed as-is. It works in combat. Torturing a kitten is not combat.
Railroading GM! RAILROAD! CHOO CHOO! You won't let my kitten cohort roll initiative? STOP PLAYING MY CHARACTER!
Who said you could have a cohort?
Hmm. okay make gunslinger with secret stash "check" make dualist with nothing but the highest attack bonus he can muster (and maybe re-rolls in case of nat 1's, if that's possible) "check" find CR appropriate monster "check" Parry everything "check" ????? profit.
I dunno, I suppose there are ways to make a combat drag on for 20-30 min in game time, or forever as long as the dualist never rolls multiple 1's. True I've brought another class into this but it's funny to think these two are standing near some creature farming bullets.
Dualist: "Parry Parry! Hows it goin?"
Gunslinger: "I found another one!"
I just purchase gold for my gunslinger from a chinese gold-selling website so that I can have as much gold as I want for like $10 US. I hope Paizo doesn't suspend my rule books for cheating.
/sarcasm
Hey, same goes for the Inquisitor's fast healing ability!
"What are you doing?"
"I'm running around that monster so I can finish healing before I slay him!"
Wow, nearly as powerful as the "buy the DM some pizza"-exploit
Ohhhhhh the DM can fix it! Thanks guys for solving all my balance issues xP
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Ohhhhhh the DM can fix it! Thanks guys for solving all my balance issues xP
Oh look, the rules should cover every single possible thing imaginable! I want my game to be able to be run by a machine who doesn't have to make judgement calls!
See, I can make a post that's just as sarcastic/condescending too! Look, just because the rules dont flat out tell you that this doesnt work, it doesnt mean its "broken". Ignoring the fact said grit needs 11th level to be taken and this combo DOESN'T work at level 1, AND the fact that you have to be in combat for the trick to even work, common sense has to come in at some point. Let them sell some ammo at first, they will get half value. At some point, the merchant says "Umm, jerk, I dont need anymore. Thanks" and sends him on his way. If your players insist on spending their time playing dnd to allow a gunslinger to go from merchant to merchant selling any ammo they find, that says a lot about your group.
This is a game designed to be played and run by human beings, therefore it ASSUMES there will be human judgement calls, and that little things like "You cant use a bag of rats to constantly be in combat" don't need to be written in. You seem to think the rules need to explicitly cover every conceivable situation, and take any and all judgement calls out of the hands of the GMs. Whats next, do you need the book to tell you that your average human needs HANDS to wield a weapon? Im pretty sure the entry on longsword doesnt say i need hands, so I must be able to wield one if I lost my arms right?
Actually in my experience if it is obviously more profitable to do something other then adventuring then it is pretty meta gamey to pretend it isn't there, sure you could put a hold on the market but you are still the leading bullet producer in the world. No it isn't level, that title was just baiting, doesn't mean in-combat abilities make any sense.
Creates too many arguments between DM and player when their views on what a combat is isn't defined. You say a bag of rats isn't combat and another DM laughs as every third encounter is a bag of diseased rats, and its pretty insulting to be saying there doing it wrong.
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Actually in my experience if it is obviously more profitable to do something other then adventuring then it is pretty meta gamey to pretend it isn't there, sure you could put a hold on the market but you are still the leading bullet producer in the world. No it isn't level, that title was just baiting, doesn't mean in-combat abilities make any sense.
Obviously more profitable than adventuring? I think we might have a disagreement on the "obviously" and "more profitable" in this situation. Supply and demand, you keep making bullets then they are gonna be worth less than nothing, since, you know, you can make them pretty much at will. Also, you are hardly gonna be the only 11th level gunslinger in the world, Im sure the others have figured out this trick too, thats more competition. And to have made enough of them at 11th level to make more money than adventuring at that level? 5 silver a pop (at first) or maybe 1g a pop (again, until you flood the market with them) to be more profitable than a 100,000g+ adventure? Ok, get back to me when you've made 100,000 bullets. Sure, you can do 3 at a time, but it will actually be a lot more than that, because once you start flooding the market, the value will drop pretty quickly, and you will need to make more and more just to recoup that lost value.
Look, this situation is pretty clearly not intended by the rules, and is fixed with a simple GM decision to say "no, that doesn't work." That's the beauty of this game, that there IS a GM to rule on such situations. I agree, its not the best solution to EVERY balance issue, obviously. Im not saying in EVERY case its ok to balance things with GM fiat. However in THIS and a lot of other cases, its 10000% enough.
Obviously more profitable than adventuring? I think we might have a disagreement on the "obviously" and "more profitable" in this situation. Supply and demand, you keep making bullets then they are gonna be worth less than nothing, since, you know, you can make them pretty much at will. Also, you are hardly gonna be the only 11th level gunslinger in the world, Im sure the others have figured out this trick too, thats more competition. And to have made enough of them at 11th level to make more money than adventuring at that level? 5 silver a pop (at first) or maybe 1g a pop (again, until you flood the market with them) to be more profitable than a 100,000g+ adventure? Ok, get back to me when you've made 100,000 bullets. Sure, you can do 3 at a time, but it will actually be a lot more than that, because once you start flooding the market, the value will drop pretty quickly, and you will need to make more and more just to recoup that lost value.
Look, this situation is pretty clearly not intended by the rules, and is fixed with a simple GM decision to say "no, that doesn't work." That's the beauty of this game, that there IS a GM to rule on such situations. I agree, its not the best solution to EVERY balance issue, obviously. Im not saying in EVERY case its ok to balance things with GM fiat. However in THIS and a lot of other cases, its 10000% enough.
Dm fiat is in no way ever an excusable balancing tool, if it were we all would still be playing 3.5
The DM halting the market is like the DM saying "no there aren't any dragon treasure hoards on the planet right now, go to the political meeting, their might be some later." If you want to track economy values for your games go ahead but it is just another form of railroading.
and what adventurer has 100,000 gold? lets see that +3 sword that +3 armor that 8000 gold cloak/ring/amulet etc etc. most use all their cash to stay in their profession. Being an adventurer is about becoming a hero not rich, everything is free when your a hero, the gunslinger just gets their faster by being a business tycoon.
Although quick side bonus to this, you flood the market (because your DM can't handle the rules as intended, and yes the rules clearly intend for you too find ammo infinitely every battle and be able to sell any gear at 1/2 price all game, how much this was intended to be exploited is the issue at hand, who are you to set the number) then the price of bullets goes down and you don't have to pay so much to be your class. (like you currently do)
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Stuff
/facepalm Ok, Im done. If you get together to play dnd and spend your entire sessions making ammo and selling it, and the rest of your party is cool with that, by all means enjoy your game. I'm backing out of this while my sanity is still intact. Congrats, you've "won" on the internet, by means of forfeiture on my part :)
Stuff/facepalm Ok, Im done. If you get together to play dnd and spend your entire sessions making ammo and selling it, and the rest of your party is cool with that, by all means enjoy your game. I'm backing out of this while my sanity is still intact. Congrats, you've "won" on the internet, by means of forfeiture on my part :)
Woot! ;)
Seriously though, you just have to understand that some of us prefer not to ignore obvious exploits and rather they just aren't their.
Of course it isn't like I'm paying anyone to write every rule concisely and professionally with added interesting fluff... oh whoa wait I totally am. xP
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It's always been part of the GMs job to set up encounters, decide the monsters stats, and adjudicate the beginning, order, and end of combats. If you fight an enemy to a standstill, it's the GMs job to find a way to challenge you by varying the creatures tactics, or failing that have the monster retreat or surrender. If the GM just sits around and lets you take total defense actions for 10 hours of game time, well, I hate to accuse anyone of badwrongfun, but they're doing it wrong.
This so-called 'exploit' requires the GM to be complicit in its execution, and as such it's really no better an exploit than simply asking the GM to leave an undefended pile of gold in every room.
Hey, there's a true level 1 infinite gold exploit, "Ask the GM!"
It is the dms job to create and control enviroments, monsters, where everything takes place, every npc you ever meet and make sure all rules are being followed.
It is absolutely not the DMs job to make sure that arrow your firing isnt doing 9d6 per shot while following the rules. Again I dont pay to have to come up with my own rules, I want the ones provided to do all the heavy work, ive got enough on my plate as a dm I dont need to add watch for rules legal expliots to the list.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It is the dms job to create and control enviroments, monsters, where everything takes place, every npc you ever meet and make sure all rules are being followed.
And my point is that just by doing those things, nothing more, a GM will easily prevent Secret Stash from becoming a problem.
The sad part is had someone not decided to make guns so damn expensive this wouldnt be an issue. if bullets were to only cost a bit more than arrows then we wouldn't have needed secret stash to begin with.
I know some people don't like "DM Fiat" but really the best way in my opinion to deal with this "exploit" is to just not allow the player to sell his stash ammo. Since it can only be used in combat, worst case scenario the gunslinger has unlimited ammo.
Hell, I tend to avoid playing archers just cause I abhor having to keep track of how many arrows I have left, or even worse being like "ACK I forgot to buy more arrows in the last town" so the gunslinger getting this ability is cool in that regard.
It is the dms job to create and control enviroments, monsters, where everything takes place, every npc you ever meet and make sure all rules are being followed.
It is absolutely not the DMs job to make sure that arrow your firing isnt doing 9d6 per shot while following the rules. Again I dont pay to have to come up with my own rules, I want the ones provided to do all the heavy work, ive got enough on my plate as a dm I dont need to add watch for rules legal expliots to the list.
So you say that saying "No sorry, pulling infinite money out of your a** is not going to work" is too much mental effort for you?
Sorry to break it to you, but players will ALWAYS find ways to break rules. You can't have a rule for every little crap they can pull in a book, especially when using your brain for half a second is enough to realise that something is a stupid idea.
So say my players (~level 14) are in a dungon, and one of them started doing this agianst a rat.
I would have the roof cave in, if they were going up, or the floor fall through, if they were going down. I'd psudeo roll some percentiles for them, give them an easy reflex save (so they wouldn't die), and block the door with the rubble. I'd steadilly add monsters to the combat as they(the monsters) came wandering through the halls as needed to get the combat above "let's jumb around this rat," quality.
The easy way to do this would be, "you stepped on a pressure plate, you all hear a rumbling, and then a part of the celing falls on(or the floor falls out from under) the monster you were fighting!" . . Give them a second.... NOW! "OH! The rest of the floor/celing follows promptly, along with some pretty green slime."
So you say that saying "No sorry, pulling infinite money out of your a** is not going to work" is too much mental effort for you?Sorry to break it to you, but players will ALWAYS find ways to break rules. You can't have a rule for every little crap they can pull in a book, especially when using your brain for half a second is enough to realise that something is a stupid idea.
Writing out an alternate rule so the player has his limitations and doesn't have to ask me every time he uses it if it is okay. Sure once is only an inconvenience (seriously rule writing is not my job) but the more you let paizo get away with it the more they will do it, pretty soon you'll have written a whole rulebook yourself.
Actually since I started pathfinder even the cheeziest munchkin in my group hasn't been able to break anything. So far paizo has caught these kinds of logical fallacy's, not sure why they should stop now.
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Except that as of round two it can only be down in combat.
bolding is mineSpend 1 grit point while in combat to recover
either 1 bullet and 1 dose of black powder or 1 alchemical
cartridge from a hidden stash on your person that you
had, until now, forgotten about. If the bullet and black
powder or the alchemical cartridges are normal shot,
you do not need to pay for the ammunition. If you want
to recover any other kind of ammunition, you must pay
for it with gold pieces from your character’s wealth.
did they also add what kind of action it is ? standard for an ability? move action for pulling something out of your bag/boot/kerchief/pocket?
free?