Advanced Firearms w / Rapid Reload


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2


So after reading through the updated version of the gunslinger, so far my question has to do with advanced firearms and rapid reload.

The metal cartridge allows you to reload the entire gun as a move action, and rapid reload would reduce that to a free action correct?

Dark Archive

Looks like it. Good thing too. Signature Deed Lightning Reload was a staple before. Now people can do.something with more character.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
YuenglingDragon wrote:
Looks like it. Good thing too. Signature Deed Lightning Reload was a staple before. Now people can do.something with more character.

Yeah, the new Lightning Reload is good, since it is now "at least 1 grit point" instead of spending one. Just have to be careful.


YuenglingDragon wrote:
Looks like it. Good thing too. Signature Deed Lightning Reload was a staple before. Now people can do.something with more character.

+1


A slight overlook: The PDF says that advanced firearms do not misfire, but in the next page the table lists the misfire range for the three advance firearms.

If we concur that advanced firearms do not misfire, we can ignore then the misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges, right?

Senior Designer

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freduncio wrote:

A slight overlook: The PDF says that advanced firearms do not misfire, but in the next page the table lists the misfire range for the three advance firearms.

If we concur that advanced firearms do not misfire, we can ignore then the misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges, right?

That is correct. They do not misfire, and there is no misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Glad to clear that up. Cap and Ball could misfire, but it's more like two 1's in a row. :)

On the subject of reloading and advanced firearms, may I suggest a paragraph of rule for Cylinders?

It is to this day quite common for those firing revolvers to keep a cylinder loaded for quick reloads. This was especially popular back during the cap and ball days, where reloading the cylinders took quite some time. I would suggest a cylinder cost 20% of the gun price? And require a full action to exchange (or a move action with Rapid Reload (Cylinder))?

Also, as an additional suggestion, a revolver rifle? The range isn't as good, but it does allow rapid shots with a rifle. A trade off on range for gaining better rate of fire.


Actually there are several revolver rifle types documented going as far back as the flint and wheel lock systems.

I must say at this point I would love to see a whole scale weapon modification system provided in ultimate combat.

After all it's bad enough that Paizo is attempting the semi-impossible already I might as well ask for the full blown thing right? ;D


Modern day revolvers dont really allow for quick cylinder replacement, these days they use moon clips to reload a swing out cylinder on a DA revolver.
SA revolver you can still do the cylinder thing, but it's not really common place. The SA cylinder replacement was really only a thing on the Remington version of the colt 1861 cap and ball, as seen in "the outlaw josie wales"

On that note I love "No name" being added, sweet, where did that come from? It wasn't in the first version so i doubt it came from the devs directly, who put their two cents in on that, and how exactly would it come into play, exactly?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
freduncio wrote:

A slight overlook: The PDF says that advanced firearms do not misfire, but in the next page the table lists the misfire range for the three advance firearms.

If we concur that advanced firearms do not misfire, we can ignore then the misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges, right?

That is correct. They do not misfire, and there is no misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges.

What if they have the broken condition? Does it go from 0 to 4? Or does it still not misfire ever?

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:
Stephen Radney-MacFarland wrote:
freduncio wrote:

A slight overlook: The PDF says that advanced firearms do not misfire, but in the next page the table lists the misfire range for the three advance firearms.

If we concur that advanced firearms do not misfire, we can ignore then the misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges, right?

That is correct. They do not misfire, and there is no misfire increase for using alchemical cartridges.
What if they have the broken condition? Does it go from 0 to 4? Or does it still not misfire ever?

How does it gain the broken condition, doesn't that comes from having a misfire?


One could still sunder your firearm.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Or it could be blasted by an area spell and a natural 1 on your save.

Or it could be specifically targeted by any number of monster- magic item- or spell abilities that specifically grant the broken condition.


curious, if a katana cuts off the barrel of your fire arm, according to gunsmith you can fuse it back on?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
freduncio wrote:
One could still sunder your firearm.

Or you could roll a 1 on a fireball save. :) Kind of a bad thing when you have explosive powder on you. I'm seeing many young and bold, but no old and bold, gunslingers. I'm thinking that after a certain point, a gunslinger might be better off with a permanent anti-magic field around them.


Pendagast wrote:
curious, if a katana cuts off the barrel of your fire arm, according to gunsmith you can fuse it back on?

Replace the barrel since guns are made in pieces and not one solid object.

Dark Archive

Jaçinto wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
curious, if a katana cuts off the barrel of your fire arm, according to gunsmith you can fuse it back on?
Replace the barrel since guns are made in pieces and not one solid object.

I'm not sure that's true of older firearms. But Pendagast seems to be a historian of old school firearms, so I bet he knows better than I.


Maverick898 wrote:

So after reading through the updated version of the gunslinger, so far my question has to do with advanced firearms and rapid reload.

The metal cartridge allows you to reload the entire gun as a move action, and rapid reload would reduce that to a free action correct?

As the feat is worded, Rapid Reload does not affect advanced firearms at all. It only reduces hand and light crossbows to free actions. 1-handed firearms are reduced to move actions to reload, and 2-handed firearms are reduced to standard actions to reload. Since the base for all advanced firearms is a move action, nothing would change.

Now, I have little doubt the intent is to allow advanced firearms to be reloaded as free actions. But as worded, Rapid Reload does not do that.


Melissa Litwin wrote:
Maverick898 wrote:

So after reading through the updated version of the gunslinger, so far my question has to do with advanced firearms and rapid reload.

The metal cartridge allows you to reload the entire gun as a move action, and rapid reload would reduce that to a free action correct?

As the feat is worded, Rapid Reload does not affect advanced firearms at all. It only reduces hand and light crossbows to free actions. 1-handed firearms are reduced to move actions to reload, and 2-handed firearms are reduced to standard actions to reload. Since the base for all advanced firearms is a move action, nothing would change.

Now, I have little doubt the intent is to allow advanced firearms to be reloaded as free actions. But as worded, Rapid Reload does not do that.

he's got a point. RAW, nope.

Quote:


The time required for you to reload your chosen type
of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow),
a move action (for a heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a
standard action (for a two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow
or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

Some clarification on the wording is needed.

Obviously, RAI, yes, it does reduce it to a free action. But rules nazis and some evil DMs might be dicks about this


Actually it does since advanced firearms still fall under one-handed and two-handed. The feat doesn't mention a difference between early and advanced firearms.


YuenglingDragon wrote:
Jaçinto wrote:
Pendagast wrote:
curious, if a katana cuts off the barrel of your fire arm, according to gunsmith you can fuse it back on?
Replace the barrel since guns are made in pieces and not one solid object.
I'm not sure that's true of older firearms. But Pendagast seems to be a historian of old school firearms, so I bet he knows better than I.

well i dont know as much about pre-1700s fire arms.

and I know MOST about civil war era and post civil war era firearms, but YD is right, in the case of the muzzle loading fire arm, the chamber and the barrel are one in the same, just think 'pirate cannon' sized for the human hand.

In the case of a revolver, yea you could replace the barrel, but this isnt an 'in the field operation as the alignment of the sight and timing are crucial for gun function, and you would have to have a replacement barrel with you.

There was a model (Dan Adams?) that allowed multiple barrels to be switched out, rapidly, in the field.

The Take-down version of a lever action rifle would be extremely easy to replace the barrel on.

There would still remain having an extra barrel around as an unlikely event.


Betatrack wrote:
Actually it does since advanced firearms still fall under one-handed and two-handed. The feat doesn't mention a difference between early and advanced firearms.

Exactly. We're merely mentioning that by RAW, it doesn't mention the difference. Of course it works that way, it's obvious, but for a newbie who's reading the rules the way it is written, it's just a tad bit confusing.


Is it any more confusing than an feat that specifically calls out one-handed or two-handed melee weapons without specifying martial or exotic? If it's because the updated Rapid Reload is printed right above the basic firearms in the playtest document and not near the other ones I could understand that confusing a newbie, but I can't see the wording confusing someone as written.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

*Storms into thread like Godzilla storming into Tokyo*

OF COURSE IT HAS NO EFFECT ON ADVANCED GUNS! THEY'RE ADVANCED! AND IT'S THE RAW. I'M SURE THE DESIGNER'S INTENT AGREES WITH MY INTERPRETATION TOO!

*Breathes nuclear heat rays onto all those who disagree leaving a path of wanton destruction in his wake*

*Storms off to rave at other dorks elsewhere*

.
.
.
.
.
.

:P


Betatrack wrote:
Is it any more confusing than an feat that specifically calls out one-handed or two-handed melee weapons without specifying martial or exotic? If it's because the updated Rapid Reload is printed right above the basic firearms in the playtest document and not near the other ones I could understand that confusing a newbie, but I can't see the wording confusing someone as written.

The wording as written isn't confusing at all. It just doesn't provide a benefit to advanced guns. It's pretty clear it should, and a DM in a home game can (and should) rule it that way. If you go by rules-as-written or you play in PFS a lot, though, you're stuck with RAW. The wording on Rapid Reload needs to be clarified to either apply to advanced firearms, or we need a FAQ/forum ruling that says it does not.


How does it not work with advanced guns? The only thing the feat cares about is whether it's one-handed or two-handed, early or advanced isn't mentioned and all firearms regardless of type are either one-handed or two-handed.


Betatrack wrote:
How does it not work with advanced guns? The only thing the feat cares about is whether it's one-handed or two-handed, early or advanced isn't mentioned and all firearms regardless of type are either one-handed or two-handed.

Because, as the wording above would show, it only takes the one-handed firearms to a move action. It does not state that the actions move one step down, it states what the actions become. We all agree and understand that it makes advanced firearms a free action, but by RAW, it doesn't. That's what we're pointing out.


Rapid reload reduces 1-handed firearms to a move action. Advanced firearms are a move action to reload normally without the feat. Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload time by one step. Metal cartridges are a form of alchemical cartridge so revolvers with rapid reload is a free action to reload since revolvers have to use cartridges and not loose powder and bullets.


Jaçinto wrote:
Rapid reload reduces 1-handed firearms to a move action. Advanced firearms are a move action to reload normally without the feat. Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload time by one step. Metal cartridges are a form of alchemical cartridge so revolvers with rapid reload is a free action to reload since revolvers have to use cartridges and not loose powder and bullets.

+1

Got to it before me.


Jaçinto wrote:
Rapid reload reduces 1-handed firearms to a move action. Advanced firearms are a move action to reload normally without the feat. Alchemical cartridges reduce the reload time by one step. Metal cartridges are a form of alchemical cartridge so revolvers with rapid reload is a free action to reload since revolvers have to use cartridges and not loose powder and bullets.

What that means is you just don't have to take the feat if using alchemical cartridges! Which is great for people using advanced weaponry because there are a lot of feats you want. I had missed that.

Still doesn't make Rapid Reload work, just means it's not necessary.


Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms are more powerful and accurate than early firearms are. With an advanced firearm, attacks are resolved against touch AC within the first five range increments of the weapon, and have the full 10 range increments for projectile
weapons. They use metal cartridges as ammunition, making it a move action to reload the weapon’s entire capacity. Advanced firearms do
not misfire.

Advanced firearms use metal cartridges. By using metal cartridges is what makes it a move action. Not just because it's an advance firearm.

If you use an alchemical cartridge, then it would reduce the load time by one step, which would then be a standard action. Because loading a two-handed firearm is a full round action.

It's the ammo you use that determines how quick you can load a firearm.

So the Rapid Reload feat would still be necessary.

A one handed firearm is a standard normally. With alchemical, it would be a move. With Rapid Reload, it would then be free.

Again, if this is incorrect, please let me know cause I'm playing a gunslinger and I need/want to get it right.


Really, a more accurate way to put that is Rapid Reload makes one-handed a move action and alchemical cartridges make it a free action. As Borthos mentioned earlier Rapid Reload specifically reduces it to a move action, not by one step.

Shadow Lodge

Actually, metal cartridges are described as "sturdier versions of alchemical cartridges", but they don't actually count as alchemical cartridges, because they aren't listed under that section.

While alchemical cartridges state that they reduce the reload action one step, metal cartridges sets the action to a move action. Because it sets it to a specific action, it doesn't play well with Rapid Reload.

Strictly RAW, Rapid Reload does NOTHING to advanced firearms, and if it wasn't for the word "reduced", would actually make advanced two-handed firearms take LONGER to reload.

The way I see it, two things need updated here.

First, alchemical cartridges need to be revised to have rules for advanced firearms; specifically, for advanced firearms, they should operate exactly like standard metal cartridges in regards to reload action.

Second, Rapid Reload needs to either be reworded to use the "step" reduction style alchemical cartridges uses, or (more likely), explicitly group advanced firearms with light and hand crossbows.


Pendagast wrote:

Modern day revolvers dont really allow for quick cylinder replacement, these days they use moon clips to reload a swing out cylinder on a DA revolver. SA revolver you can still do the cylinder thing, but it's not really common place. The SA cylinder replacement was really only a thing on the Remington version of the colt 1861 cap and ball, as seen in "the outlaw josie wales"

On that note I love "No name" being added, sweet, where did that come from? It wasn't in the first version so i doubt it came from the devs directly, who put their two cents in on that, and how exactly would it come into play, exactly?

Speaking about Moon Clips, check out Jerry Miculek making it look so easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PDzE55esIE

I agree "No Name" is cool.

Here are my thoughts on improving the Gunslinger.

1. Summary - No\Light Armor only

I think the Gunslinger should be limited to light armor only. I mean you need as much movement as possible to make those jumping kill shots and everything you see in the movies a gunslinger manages to pull off. With Elven Chain, he\she will still be pretty awesome. Besides in our world, a gunslinger's world, armor does not exist.

2. Summary - Add Wis mod to AC for light or no armor, Luck and\or Intimidation System, Fighting chance in the front lines but more logical for the acrobatic moves of a gunslinger. Revise Gunslinger's Dodge to include melee?

In addition to the light armor rule, add while the gunslinger is wearing light or no armor, he can add his Wisdom mod score to his AC similar to a Monk. And/or personally I think a gunslinger is LUCKY or everyone his\her opponents are bad shots, one of the two. Maybe add in a luck or he is so intimidating wearing light or no armor something must be uber about him system. He is after all still a fighter and will be in the front lines. I agree the gunslinger should be balanced but I worry about taking too many dirt naps because he\she is easier to hit by the traditional sword swinging tanks. Since it sounds like Grit is supposed to be luck, update Gunslinger's Dodge to include melee as well.

3. Summary - Guns kills - advance firearms threat range extended to 19-20 or just for the rifle or adv shotgun.

The critical threat should be slightly better than a bow and should be changed to 19-20 (or maybe just extend the threat for the rifle). I am guessing a revolver is closer to .45 Long Colt. If the ammunition is not downloaded, .45 Long Colts will have a higher tissue damage results than 45 ACP.

4. Summary - Extended ranges for the advance firearms - Revolver - 30', Rifle 150 - 200', Shotgun - 40/50 Cone/Slug.

The revolver range should extend to 30' (RL: 50 +/- yards) and rifle should extend to 150 to 200' (RL: 500 yards +/-). Snipers can usually push the limits past maximum effective range.

5. Summary - Surpasses Zombie DR or those normally immune to B/P.

Blunderbuss\Shotgun - cause normal damage to those normally immune B/P such as a zombie. After all, the shotgun is the ultimate anti-zombie weapon. Saiga-12/Extrema 2 Rulez!

6. More accessories - Holsters, Rifle\Shotgun Scabbards, and etc. Depending on if the rules change or revised for rapid reload - have devices to speed it up.


Light\No Armor\Gunslinger's dodge thought - as long as the gunslinger has 1 point of grit and not flatfooted or bound, he can multiply his Dex by 2 and add it to his AC or use the Wis mod idea. I can see a gunslinger using at the very most light armor but he is still a front line fighter and needs protection or he will be useless because of how quickly he will be taken out. I am seeing this as gunslinger luck or intimidation. I am imagining Wyatt Earp in either Tombstone (Kurt Russel) or Wyatt Earp with Kevin Costner standing up and facing the Cowboys in a wall of bullets coming at him and not a single round hits him while he returns fire and kills some Cowboys. I see Grit being expended too fast for my gunslinger's dodge to work. I am going to see if I can convince my GM to experiment and I will report our findings.

I mean if you think about it, it will be very similar to wearing plate mail armor while using base Elven Chain except his touch AC will be slightly better which is good in gun combat where the gunslinger was either more accurate, and/or lucky, and/or intimidating.

One other thing, the gunslinger feats seem to be geared more towards simple or older model firearms. Maybe they should have two categories, like simple firearms this is what you can do and advance firearms users this is what you can do.


Anderlorn wrote:

5. Summary - Surpasses Zombie DR or those normally immune to B/P.

Blunderbuss\Shotgun - cause normal damage to those normally immune B/P such as a zombie. After all, the shotgun is the ultimate anti-zombie weapon. Saiga-12/Extrema 2 Rulez!

6. More accessories - Holsters, Rifle\Shotgun Scabbards, and etc. Depending on if the rules change or revised for rapid reload - have devices to speed it up.

I was just talking with my DM about this earlier today. Why a Shotgun should be able to ignore the fleshy Zombie DR.

Genius. Hopefully they have a little footnote to it. :3


SCPRedMage wrote:


Strictly RAW, Rapid Reload does NOTHING to advanced firearms, and if it wasn't for the word "reduced", would actually make advanced two-handed firearms take LONGER to reload.

Please point out where in the book that it is explicitly written that Rapid Reload does not work with Advanced Firearms or could we get a designer in this thread to clear the air on this discussion


Blackvial wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:


Strictly RAW, Rapid Reload does NOTHING to advanced firearms, and if it wasn't for the word "reduced", would actually make advanced two-handed firearms take LONGER to reload.

Please point out where in the book that it is explicitly written that Rapid Reload does not work with Advanced Firearms or could we get a designer in this thread to clear the air on this discussion

Rapid reload works for firearms, if you still have disbelievers just point them to this ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PDzE55esIE

I like to see someone reload a crossbow like that ... :-)

And everyone of those shots is either center mass or head shot which equals dead or dying.


Anderlorn wrote:


And everyone of those shots is either center mass or head shot which equals dead or dying.

Center mass doesn't mean they will die, or are dead. It simply increases the likelihood that you stopped them from continuing in the actions that caused you to shoot them in the first place.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Anderlorn wrote:


And everyone of those shots is either center mass or head shot which equals dead or dying.
Center mass doesn't mean they will die, or are dead. It simply increases the likelihood that you stopped them from continuing in the actions that caused you to shoot them in the first place.

Sigh, yes there is always a chance to survive because they received immediate medical attention or they were just plain lucky and nothing major was hit because of a pass through in between the organs instead of a tumble through. However, I see it very unlikely that someone could survive on their own if their heart was shredded, they have a sucking chest wound and there is no plastic near by, they have massive internal bleeding, a broken spine, survive the infection, and any other possibility. And to make sure, double tap them to increase the likelihood to 400%.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Anderlorn wrote:


And everyone of those shots is either center mass or head shot which equals dead or dying.
Center mass doesn't mean they will die, or are dead. It simply increases the likelihood that you stopped them from continuing in the actions that caused you to shoot them in the first place.

do you know how nasty getting shot in the gut is? without immediate medical attention most people will die in minutes


Blackvial wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Anderlorn wrote:


And everyone of those shots is either center mass or head shot which equals dead or dying.
Center mass doesn't mean they will die, or are dead. It simply increases the likelihood that you stopped them from continuing in the actions that caused you to shoot them in the first place.
do you know how nasty getting shot in the gut is? without immediate medical attention most people will die in minutes

I have never had the experience but that is one of the reasons why you shoot center mass because if you drop the shot, it will drop into their gut (that is the hope anyway) unless you pull left or right. The other reason why a gut shot is so bad is because not only does a gut shot bleed badly, it hurts badly, and there is a greater chance for infection because of digesting food and kidney fluids getting into places it should not be.


People regularly live with gut wounds for over a week without treatment. "Most people" will not die in minutes from a gut shot. Heck even in the 'vitals' the 'golden hour' still stands most of the time. Caliber elitism not withstanding in most cases the heart will not be 'shredded' simply due to the bulk of stuff between the round entering and passing through the heart (I am aware that that same stuff can cause ricochet issues). Center mass also includes a heck of a lot of non-vital targets as well.

Gut shots are painful -- there are plenty of spots that can easily drop someone just from hitting them in the guts, let alone hitting them with a weapon. But causing them to stop, causing lethal damage and causing a sudden short term death from gut shots are not all the same thing.

As I said a center mass shot will in all likelihood cause the target to stop doing whatever it was doing in the first place -- provide there are not extenuating circumstances (such as the target being hopped up on drugs).

Consider: Using bigger shots, with poorer medical sciences people in the black powder age generally died of infection. Not because the rounds didn't do lots of damage -- but because at the end of the day a gun shot is no more lethal than any other wound from a lethal weapon design (such as a sword, axe, mace, etc).

The "died in minutes" fables around guns are just that -- fables caused by occasional odd flukes of probability.


Abraham spalding wrote:


The "died in minutes" fables around guns are just that -- fables caused by occasional odd flukes of probability.

Every gun shot I have seen to center mass in real life has equaled in death including a gang member who was shot center mass and was able to run a little ways before keeling over and dying where he fell.

Anderlorn wrote:
And everyone of those shots is either center mass or head shot which equals dead or dying.
Abraham spalding wrote:
The "died in minutes" fables around guns are just that -- fables caused by occasional odd flukes of probability.

Therefore, the flukes of probability occur more often than not. Perhaps if you split my dramatic view of GSWs and your optimistic view of center mass GSWs in half will result in the true answer? One can not down play the effectiveness of a firearm because very few battlefields contain nothing else but a firearm or larger. In addition, PF characters are supposed to be more like snipers who are a lot more effective in dealing out killing gun shot wounds than normal citizens and most soldiers.

I am going from my experience and that is all I can work with. Perhaps if you are a corpsman attached to a Marine Corps Unit deployed in the Middle East or a doctor that witnesses first hand center mass GSWs outcomes, then you are closer to the truth than I am?

There is one thing I know for sure, I am not going to test out the flukes of probability ... ;-)


Well I won't play the 'personal experience' game -- simply because like you I try to avoid taking such wounds (and avoid being in places where such is likely).

Now I know statistically that gun shot wounds are less deadly than most would assume (including a lot of people that deal with them) however statistics can do funny things with numbers, without people trying.

For example when it comes to something as small as role playing I am a statistical average roller. However I do so by extremes -- I roll nothing in the 6~14 range -- all my rolls tend to be 1~5 and 15~20. As such they average out... but are not average.

I do believe I am probably understating a little and circumstances in case will result in different outcomes.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Whilst I agree that RAW it says nothing (even in the Ultimate Combat book) about rapid reload reducing metal cartridge time, to me I find it unfathomable that you can get a feat that turns reloading a musket (which good, veteran musketeers could fire twice a minute... not every six seconds like they do in pathfinder with rapid shot) but not put a metal cartridge into a chamber faster.

I personally intend to allow players who get advanced firearms and then get rapid reload to be able to reload them quickly. I recall reading somewhere that IRL in the first world war british riflemen used bolt-action rifles that had to be loaded manually per shot, and were so fast at reloading and firing that when in a small group germans sometimes thought they were under attack by a machine gun.

Personally I will make Advanced Firearms very hard to get... and they're already expensive. If a player WANTs to spend the amount to buy them (which could be spend on magical enhancements instead), go find someone who can make it (likely travel to Alkenstar), and then pay the 30 gp cost per shot (20 gp for cartridge and 10gp for the powder)... then frankly they deserve to be able to fire shots with a rifle at the speed of an archer. They'll be broke in a day.

I have a gunslinger npc, and whilst players are spending their gp treasure on enhancing weapons and armour, she uses a large chunk to replenish her stocks (even at base cost with the gunsmithing feat it's still about 11gp per shot). I even have her strategically decide "do I need to use my rifle" since it's so expensive to use "just on a goblin..."

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