Is the body easier to use for traps and light spell than a stone of equal weight?
I would argue that this is uqual to use the body of a dead person trough animate dead. And a Paizo person said that his personal opinion is, that it's an evil act to summon skeletons on a regular basis.
I don't think that an army of the undead is that evil, but this use is at least highly neutral. And any Paladin would instantly loose some/all of his powers if he didn't try to prevent this. Give him a warning first tough.
p.s. I hate paladins and I like to screw them over, so this opinion might be biased.
Its certainly tasteless. Depending on your cosmology, it could also be viewed as evil for preventing the soul from going to the afterlife. You may want this guy to haunt them later for defiling his corpse. Perfect for a custom revenge undead.
Its very much not Paladin behavior though. Maintaining societal norms is part of lawful behavior, and this is spitting in their face. Not evil, but most certainly cannot be considered lawful behavior.
It depends on your view of the afterlife. Either a body is something that should be treated with reverence (or at bare minimum least respect) or a body is a mostly useless lump of flesh. Sounds like the party prefers the latter peception. It's tacky (at best) but not inheriently evil.
P.S. Dead bodies are unpleasant to be around. They smell and become very rigid in a relatively short amount of time. Not to mention they get really cold. After a few hour of being thrown around/pierced/dragged etc the body would start to fall apart. All kinds of unpleasant fluids would begin to leak out (Gastro intestinal *stuff* would begin to leak out of both mouth and rear almost immediately).
If you paint the picture right the pc's will be unlikey to continue to use the dead body as a trap setter.
"You want to throw the body into the next room to find a trap?"
"Yes"
"OK make a strength check."
"28!"
"As you attempt to lift the body over your head, the arm comes off at the shoulder, blood and gore spatter your armor and some of it gets in your mouth. Make a fortitude save."
"What!?"
"Make a fortitude save."
"That shouldn't happen."
"Make a fortitude save."
"This sucks!"
"Dead bodies aren't rocks."
Ok was running a game and the party had captured a mercenary hired to kill them. They threated and coorced the merc into revealing the location of one of the mercenary's hideouts and lead the PC's there. The mercenary was poised by a trap at the entrance and died. The PC then proceeded to drag the mercenary's dead body around with a light spell cast on it so they could see and repeatedly throw the corpse infront of them trying to set off any traps that might be there. Personally I think using a body in such a fashion, even the corpse of an enemy is a little on the shady side of moral. I tried to bring it up but they were like its not an "evil" act. They made such comments as...."He's already dead." "Its not like we killed him."
Sure it wasnt evil but really tasteless and a bit sadistic. Aside from teh fact of whether it would be good or evil. It's kind of a twisted thing to do.
What are other peoples views?
The party consists of Good and Neutral characters and contains a Paladin.
I just had a vision of Weekend at Bernies...
Anyway I would not rate as Evil per se. It is neutral. I would also say it is not sadistic...as well dead people don't feel pain.
But it definitly twisted. And I like the idea of having the ghost haunt them.
As for the Paladin...I tend to give them some lee way. But I would ask how his/her character thinks about this...and go from there.
Kalyth,
That was, by far, the most HILARIOUS thing i have ever heard! You actually made my eyes water! LOL
But seriously though, yes, in our society treating that corpse like that is a sign of disrespect..
BUT,
this is a roleplaying game. To a player, this could be the release from the stresses of life. I have a PC that in real life he is a drug counsoler, but when he shows up to game, he lets it all out and does it all, drugs, alcohol, mutilating the corpses, and other things that will set off the filters to the nth degree. I allow it because i am a mature DM who has seen alot of things in my 3 decades of life.
My advice is this. You are the DM. You are in control of the setting. Before you game with your group, meetup someplace else and talk about whats been going on, and explain your point of view. IF the whole group is all for continuing with the "dancing corpse", then say "i am done with being your dm." You dictate how far into the black you want to campaign to go. If you ALLOW an "all out, everything goes" campaign, then be prepared for shocking responses. If you want something more tame, then relay that to your players. Green ronin put out a book called "the advanced dungeon masters guide" (yes, there are alot of ADMG books out there) but this one was great in that it explains different options for DMs to approach campaigns in regards to how much or how little "black" you want. Its a great read, and gives guidelines to setup/modify your campaign.
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I didnt make a big deal of it at the game because everyone was getting a big laugh out of it and the game is supposed to be fun. But it did annoy me that they weren't taking the story or their characters seriously.I wasn't grossed out or anything. I have and still plan to throw all manner of twisted stuff at them. My only issue was really that they weren't being serious with the story which I'm putting a lot of work into. And really would actual people do this? You know I want my players to have their characters react to horrific things the way people really would.
I was just curious to get others views and concepts.
I REALLY love the idea of a ghost haunting them but think that might be a bit out there as he was just a minor NPC and not really high level or powerful.
I'm with the rest of the posters here, Kalyth. The players may not have committed a clearly evil act, but it so far into "the gray" towards being sadistic that the Paladin should have been b&*&+-slapped by his Gawd for allowing the players to do this. Corpse mutilation is NEVER an acceptable practice for ANY Lawful Good character.
I like the idea of the guy's ghost coming back to haunt them. Also, if anybody gets wind of the players actions while doing this, I'd start making some difficult RP encounters back in town. I can imagine this wouldn't sit well with most civilized society. Most people might think, "if they're that cruel to their enemies, what might they do to me and my family?" Definitely have them start making some Diplomacy rolls to smooth things over, and maybe even hike up the price in stores in and around town.
Another good point is that their enemies probably saw them doing that and saw how they treated the guys corpse. I don't know about you, but if I see my enemy throwing around a comrade's body, using it as a tool to set off traps, I'd be pretty pissed. Maybe some of this guy's friends will either pay the PC's a visit, or perhaps hire out an assassin to kill a PC, leaving it in a mutilated state for the other PCs to find (ie, sending them a message). If nothing else, when they fight their enemies again, there should be no way the enemy should even consider surrendering. They should fight to the last man and hold absolutely nothing back.
Of course, that's how I would approach this. ;-)
I've always wondered about that. Is it an American bias against law, authority, or a general mistrust on good?
p.s. I hate paladins and I like to screw them over, so this opinion might be biased.
I think it is a dislike for the traditional football-playing all american hero jock steriotype that Paladins seem to have.
Evil? No. Good? Definitely not! I would say everyone just took a step towards Chaotic Neutral.
LazarX
I'm european, so it's not my american bias. It's mostly that I interpret their code as "dumb and glorious". I know that some people have shown that it doesn't have to be that way, but I still think they have situations they can't handle, one way or the other.
It's about freedom of choice I guess, I have nothing against Lawful good characters, but paladins have a code I don't like, and therefor are more powerful than the average other character.
However, I always tell my players that paladins will have a hard time in my games, noone had a problem picking another class.
To the OP
I think I know where they got it from, the movie :the cube
However there are no other devices to use, and traps almost everywhere.
I think it is a dislike for the traditional football-playing all american hero jock steriotype that Paladins seem to have.I've always wondered about that. Is it an American bias against law, authority, or a general mistrust on good?
p.s. I hate paladins and I like to screw them over, so this opinion might be biased.
I believe it is sometimes called "tall poppy syndrome." We tend to dislike people who are, by any standard, "better" than us.
I didnt make a big deal of it at the game because everyone was getting a big laugh out of it and the game is supposed to be fun. But it did annoy me that they weren't taking the story or their characters seriously.I wasn't grossed out or anything. I have and still plan to throw all manner of twisted stuff at them. My only issue was really that they weren't being serious with the story which I'm putting a lot of work into. And really would actual people do this? You know I want my players to have their characters react to horrific things the way people really would.
I was just curious to get others views and concepts.
I REALLY love the idea of a ghost haunting them but think that might be a bit out there as he was just a minor NPC and not really high level or powerful.
Commoners leave ghosts behind all the time in stories. Their souls ferment at improper treatment too.
Part of the way to get players reacting seriously to your game is to react seriously to their actions. The more the world evolves arround them, the more I find players act realisticly. My advice in this regard is to make sure NPCs react to the player actions reasonably.
No they didn't "kill him" but they allowed his death and completely disrespected his corpse afterward. They've moved beyond the pale of what the dead allow and that means they deserve a brand new shiny Revenant after them.
IF you really want to be mean (and I sure do!)
Then have his body get up as a Revenant and his spirit get up as a ghost at the same time (after they've left the body behind).
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I like paladins but most games seem biased against them. Making atonement easier and loss of powers shorter (one or two days) would make them more interesting.
As for the actual post, if every one had a good time then great. I have been bothered when DMing, by unserious players. The problem is that not everyone will be into the story. Sometimes the whole group just wants to kill things.
Using the body like that is kinda shady. I would let it slide this time but let the players know you think that is not appropriate for good characters.
I REALLY love the idea of a ghost haunting them but think that might be a bit out there as he was just a minor NPC and not really high level or powerful.
"strike me down and i shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"
give him cheat codes...
Evil? No. Good? Definitely not! I would say everyone just took a step towards Chaotic Neutral.
Agreed.
If you perform Neutral acts often enough, it should cost you your Good alignment. It might take longer doing things like corpse desecration and other "borderline" actions then something like human sacrifice to dark gods, but it will get you there.
The Paladin should have issues with it and put a stop to it. Unless it's the only option (which I doubt) They are supposed to be paragons of Good and Law. This isn't a breach of the "smite your teammates for doing it" level, but it is something he should have no part of.
In a slapstick game, sure; but for the rest: no.
And +1 on the ghost/revenant/whatever. Show the players there are consequences for their actions.
The moment they turn their backs on it, it's gone.
It will rise as a coffer corpse, and go ahead of them warning the monsters. When it returns it will lead an ambush.
I had this happen. The party killed some monsters in their sleep. The NPC Paladin felt the PCs were not listening, so he left the party for a while, healing the sick, feeding the poor, and all that. The monsters also kidnapped and murdered a member of the party. When the PCs started behaving better, the Paladin came back.
Using a dead body of a sentient being as a trap detector, even if it was a foe, is not a "neutral" act. It's clearly on the "evil" side of the line of human behavior. Every society on the real planet of earth has laws and customs making desecration of bodies illegal for a reason. Desecrating the body of a sentient being in such a crass and callous manner is beyond the pale and if I were the DM I'd quickly inform that players that this behavior was sufficiently evil to start affecting their alignment.
One of the key attributes that anthropologists use to determine the level of culture of a hominid species is whether there is evidence that the hominid species treated their dead with respect and reverence.
It matters.
@OP: You have some sick players.
The proper etiquette for a enemy corpse is as follows; tea bag, loot, repeat.
The etiquette for a party member is loot, repeat, unless you killed the bastard yourself, then you teabag, loot, teabag, kick, repeat while mocking the characters player.
You may only teabag a corpse you kill. Double bagging is allowed for flanking kills.
Throwing a copse should only be done as a warning to surviving enemies, or on a bet.
Using a dead body of a sentient being as a trap detector, even if it was a foe, is not a "neutral" act. It's clearly on the "evil" side of the line of human behavior. Every society on the real planet of earth has laws and customs making desecration of bodies illegal for a reason. Desecrating the body of a sentient being in such a crass and callous manner is beyond the pale and if I were the DM I'd quickly inform that players that this behavior was sufficiently evil to start affecting their alignment.
One of the key attributes that anthropologists use to determine the level of culture of a hominid species is whether there is evidence that the hominid species treated their dead with respect and reverence.
It matters.
+1
Anyone else remember the paroxysms of outrage the nation went into when the bodies of our military personnel were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu in the Black Hawk Down incident? This is the sort of thing that the vast majority of people react to with revulsion and rage when we see it in the real world.
When JRR Tolkien wanted to demonstrate the dark-hearted evilness of the invading Orcs at Minas Tirith, he had them desecrate the bodies of the Gondorian soldiers and hurl the desecrated bodies back over the walls of the city.
That was perhaps the single most evil incident described in the entire book of good vs. evil.
i would have just found this to be so funny i would have just laughed it off, while the act is a clear desecration of the body it is not done for the purpose to show superiority over the fallen foe but rather a use of the body, very weekend at burny's. i would have just laughed this off let the players do this with no complaint and maybe haunt them afterward with the foes ghost.
i would have just found this to be so funny i would have just laughed it off, while the act is a clear desecration of the body it is not done for the purpose to show superiority over the fallen foe but rather a use of the body, very weekend at burny's. i would have just laughed this off let the players do this with no complaint and maybe haunt them afterward with the foes ghost.
I suppose it's all a matter of how seriously you take the role playing to be.
Of course I am one of those old stuffed shirt types that find dead body humor even less "funny" than bodily function humor.
Oh, and for those who think fart jokes are the funniest thing out there, I guess I better make it clear that I don't care for bodily function humor either.
If one of my parties did this I'd warn them about alignment problems and if they continued to do it, it would have an in game impact.
Using a dead body of a sentient being as a trap detector, even if it was a foe, is not a "neutral" act. It's clearly on the "evil" side of the line of human behavior. Every society on the real planet of earth has laws and customs making desecration of bodies illegal for a reason. Desecrating the body of a sentient being in such a crass and callous manner is beyond the pale and if I were the DM I'd quickly inform that players that this behavior was sufficiently evil to start affecting their alignment.
One of the key attributes that anthropologists use to determine the level of culture of a hominid species is whether there is evidence that the hominid species treated their dead with respect and reverence.
It matters.
+1
Anyone else remember the paroxysms of outrage the nation went into when the bodies of our military personnel were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu in the Black Hawk Down incident? This is the sort of thing that the vast majority of people react to with revulsion and rage when we see it in the real world.
Yes. Exactly.
And this is why a ghost is far better than a revenant as the form for the angry spirit. A revenant will just go on a frontal assault, and the PCs, being badasses, will kill it and then giggle about the bonus XP they just got.
A ghost? A ghost doesn't have to haunt the people who harmed it directly. Let it go back to the town of its birth or some other place where it might feel safe and lament its pitiable fate to bards, who will of course record the tale, and to religious good folk who are itching to go smite some evildoers.
Yes, this guy was a mercenary, and probably not that nice himself, but he likely didn't desecrate the dead and laugh about it.
I'd also strip the paladin of his paladinhood immediately. Desecrating the corpses of fallen foes is both chaotic and evil.
True neutral people rifle through their pockets but otherwise leave them where they are unless they're going to stink up the place, in which case they bury them or burn them, but without any ceremony.
Lawful and good types will bury or burn them with some appropriate ceremony, attempting to remember that this was somebody's child, and commending their soul in general terms to the higher powers, as redemption and mercy are held as ideals, even if they don't seem particularly likely for most people adventurers kill.
The mercenary's ghost should hold out for a bare minimum of human decency before it goes on to its final rest: burial in the churchyard of his home town with a cheap ceremony, some minor trinket or possession given to a particular family member or other loved one, and the wicked folk who abused his corpse punished appropriately by some lawful authority so the ghost isn't tormented by their callous giggling.
The "punished appropriately" could range from beheading to sackcloth and ashes to having their money confiscated while the town children go and ritually spit on them. Even tarring and feathering and being ridden out on a rail would work.
And the paladin? Apart from having his god drop his paladinhood, his church should be out to deal with him, harshly, because he's a PR nightmare for them.
If this is something that bothers you, why don't you talk to your players outside of the game? Tell them that this is not the style of game you want and that this is something that hurts your enjoyment.
I think that would be better than a ghost or undead coming after them seeking vengeance, which could be perceived as the DM trying to "get" the players. Not that I disagree with that as a possible cool plot idea, but it is important to look at how it will be perceived and to be honest with them about how you view their actions with the NPC's body.
+1
Personally, I think you're making too big a deal out of it. The players enjoyed it, everyone (except you) thought it was funny, as well as useful. Just explain to them that as long as it was a one off event, there will be no consequences.
Yes. Exactly.And this is why a ghost is far better than a revenant as the form for the angry spirit. A revenant will just go on a frontal assault, and the PCs, being badasses, will kill it and then giggle about the bonus XP they just got.
Revenants don't die -- that's specifically why I chose one -- until it kills its murderers it continues to get back up and attack again.
Which is really going to be hard for the paladin to explain:
"Why does that undead keep getting back up and coming after you? I thought they only did that for those that murdered them, or desecrated their corpse."
Now an easy thing to explain away.
One of the absoulte must-have items I picked up when I started playing a paladin was a shovel. And that's all I have to say on the matter.
To hit other characters that tried this sort of stuff in the head with right? Because they aren't worth sullying your blade over?
It's not evil. A Lawful Good lizardman might have eaten the corpse as a sign of respect.
It's damned well dishonorable, however. If honor and chivalry are important to your vision of how Paladins operate, then the Paladin should get a warning.
His god doesn't need to punish him. This time.
Have everyone who finds out about the incident treat the PCs coldly. Have the other mercenaries refuse to negotiate, refuse to surrender, and generally put more effort into opposing the PCs.
Bring the dead mercenary back as an undead creature bent on revenge, and have him harass the PCs rather than face them in open combat. If you want to make it stick, let them destroy him. And then he comes back. And they destroy him again. And he comes back. And he keeps coming back until they give him a proper burial.
It's evil. And chaotic.
Evil is not limited to eating babies and genocide.
It is not "merely" a neutral act, as neutral people (i.e. the majority of humans) both in-game and the real-world have moral objections to such practices. To me having an entire group of players feel fine about it, is a sign of denial and immaturity.
It's not evil. A Lawful Good lizardman might have eaten the corpse as a sign of respect.
Um... ritual cannibalism isn't the same as corpse desecration. If the way the lizardman's try handles the dead is to eat them ritually that's one thing -- throwing them about as trapfinders, and giggling about carrying an old beat up corpse around are completely different.
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One of the absoulte must-have items I picked up when I started playing a paladin was a shovel. And that's all I have to say on the matter.To hit other characters that tried this sort of stuff in the head with right? Because they aren't worth sullying your blade over?
Closest it's come to that was one non-good PC grumbling about how it was pointless to bury the kobolds he startled into attacking us, but since then it's been smooth sailing on that front thankfully.
...except maybe for those giants that were just too big to manage on a tight timetable...
Closest it's come to that was one non-good PC grumbling about how it was pointless to bury the kobolds he startled into attacking us, but since then it's been smooth sailing on that front thankfully.
...except maybe for those giants that were just too big to manage on a tight timetable...
You know I had a wizard once use fireball on a couple of dead giants. People were like "OMG you're desecrating the bodies, and wasting magic! How could you!"
The wizard was aghast at what they were saying, he was like, "No I'm not! We can't bury them! They are too big, and they'll rot and stink and cause disease if we leave them here so this is their funeral pyre! I'm not desecrating, I'm respectfully burning the bodies!"
Which quickly calmed things down. But I highly recommend a fireball wand or a wand of flaming sphere (which is great for multiple bodies over a large area).
Id have them walk into a custom trap that will negate this idea.
have them throw body into the trap and have the trap cast resurrection on teh corpse..
Id have them walk into a custom trap that will negate this idea.
have them throw body into the trap and have the trap cast resurrection on teh corpse..
I've sometimes used traps that are triggered in one square, but effect an area well behind that square, specifically designed to punish the players that hang back while the rogue takes all the risks. This situation would be a perfect time for that sort of trap...
I think the root of this problem lies in the recent trend in computer rpgs of giving the player a 'pick up item' command which many players use to move corpses about. Think Portal or Oblivion. In these types of games, the npcs don't usually react to further desecrations after the character is already dead- aside from looting.
You just need to have a fatherly appropriateness talk with your players. (or motherly if you're female)
I think Abe´s comments get to the crux of this,
along with your comments that the player´s didn´t seem like they were taking their characters seriously or role-playing, etc.
What culture does the Paladin come from? Paizo makes most of Golarion have fairly clear-cut real-world (or established fantasy trope) analogs, so anything not spelled out you should be easily able to figure out. Do they respect the corpses of dead? Probably so, almost all cultures do. So why is the Paladin acting outside this norm? No good reason, acting like sadistic kill monkeys like we see in the photos from the Afghan occupation? Not very Paladin-like, right? More than likely, what they did counts as a crime (corpse desecration) in most any Golarion culture, so I don´t really see any justification for saying what they did falls within the Paladin Code.
What they did perhaps isn´t BIG EVIL in the same sense that Creating Undead is, because AFAIK it didn´t affect the guy´s SOUL at all, which is the basis for Create Undead´s BIG EVILNESS. But still, it reflects an indifference to the value of life, not to mention being extremely unlawful if they come from a normal society which respects the dead, etc. As Abe said, cultures do vary, and their may be cases where you can say cannibalism may not be EVIL per se (if it´s respectfully done when people die, and not killing innocents to eat), but this doesn´t seem like one... There isn´t any non-Evil, Lawful context with which to place their action. And a Paladin doesn´t need to commit BIG EVIL (Undead creation) in order to lose their powers, ANY act against their Code is enough, and I think this qualfies. The Code means every act of a Paladin should be exemplary... This is not.
I think you should discuss this with your players... It seems pretty obvious that you aren´t very happy with letting your game descend into psycho kill monkeys, and you want to keep it within the realm of semi-solid roleplaying. If your players can´t get on board that, then trying to play in your type of game isn´t something they should continue with. If they recognize that they too enjoy an immersive role-playing experience, then they should accept their side of the coin, and not sabotage it for cheap giggles. I would apply penalties for Paladin failure (losing their powers), they are easy enough to mitigate in an adventure or two, and should sober up the Paladin player... If he´s interested in role-playing and role-playing a Paladin, he shouldn´t argue much against that. If everybody is interested in a mostly-serious roleplaying game, but the player doesn´t want to lose their powers (until he can atone) for what they did, I would offer the player the chance to re-build their character as an Inquisitor or Cavalier.
For everybody else, I would move their Alignment towards Chaotic Evil... If a character always acts very Lawful and Good besides this event, perhaps their Alignment wouldn´t actually shift, but for most they would probably shift at least one Category... For most characters that doesn´t affect them much, and even for Clerics they very well may still be within a legal range from their Deity´s Alignment... If not, they are in the same boat as the Paladin. If the player´s are on board with this, you can make Atoning an engaging process, and perhaps even let them discover some malevolent force which is ´pushing´ people towards Chaotic Evil acts (i.e. the reason they acted as such, though they are still responsible for their acts). Or not, but play up the characters´ roleplaying response to their realization they DID in fact descend into psycho kill monkeys, perhaps as a reaction to violence, etc, surrounding them, but they DID descend to that level, so if their characters´ non-Chaotic Evil-ness is to prevail, there is going to be soul searching, and treading carefully... Beyond mere class feature loss.
I want to say this very carefully -- not because I don't believe I have some truth in it, but because I don't want to belittle actual experience of living (or dead) people or make light of a very serious condition. So please take the following with no salt, straight up and think on it some before any flippant responses.
I wonder if possibly in some way the behavior that these players engaged in wasn't somewhat like PTSD, or a more lord of the flies scenario.
The players have been put into a situation that they in their normal lives will most likely never have to deal with -- the killing of living things, the violent death of near and dear friends and allies, in ways that are neither of great consequence or magnitude. In fact the method of death is often arbitrary and lacking real logic or reason.
Many of us play RPGs to "get away from reality" in some way shape or form... however we can't escape ourselves, or the mental baggage we bring with us -- this is why I rarely if ever play a divine type character for example. When the human mind meets something it simply can't understand or work around it often will dive in head first trying to find meaning and reason -- it's not that it wants to be this way -- but it feels it must understand what happened and why -- regardless of if the person that owns that mind wants too.
This process can lead to actions like what these characters have taken, callousness towards the living and dead, as well as irrational actions in many other ways.
Perhaps when this sort of activity takes place at our tables we really should step back and ask ourselves, "what just happened here and why?"
It could be that your players are trying to cope with the new reality that people die, violently and without sense and they actually can cause and deny this happening to others to some extent -- but ultimately they aren't in control.
Unlike video games where we can blame ourselves for the loss of an NPC hit the reset button and try again to save the NPC -- or blame the game for something beyond our control (well that guy has to die, it's part of the plot) in tabletop RPGs even as we play characters we are not actually in control of what's happening. This disconnect and reminder of reality can cause players to react in odd ways, including the behavior under discussion here.
So I highly recommend before anyone plays at that table again everyone sits down and at least goes over these points at least once.
I am reminded of some incidents in Florida and in other locations where people lost their grip on the game -- which led to tragedies that shouldn't have happened. Perhaps the callousness of what the characters could get away with seeped into their actual lives and they couldn't handle what they had let themselves do in a simple game -- I realize that makes it easy for us to say, "Well they shouldn't have been like that." But realize they were looking for a release and escape too -- perhaps they simply found too much of it.
Neutral on a good day.
Neutral on a good day.
I am amazed at the number of people on this thread who assert this. It is so utterly and obviously an act of evil that viewing the desecration of corpses can enrage entire nations and lead to total war.
The act of desecrating a corpse is an affront to the concept of the sanctity of life and any sort of respect for the dead.
Behavior such as this is recognized immediately as horrific by any person living in the real world. This is why horror movies so frequently include corpse desecration.
I am more appalled by the assertion that this is a neutral act than I am by the original party's doing it in the first place.
I mean, seriously, WTF?
I've always wondered about that. Is it an American bias against law, authority, or a general mistrust on good?
p.s. I hate paladins and I like to screw them over, so this opinion might be biased.
It's because in many people's eyes LG equates to lawful stupid. plus if you're too good in a fantasy game it's a buzz Kill.
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Neutral on a good day.I am amazed at the number of people on this thread who assert this. It is so utterly and obviously an act of evil that viewing the desecration of corpses can enrage entire nations and lead to total war.
The act of desecrating a corpse is an affront to the concept of the sanctity of life and any sort of respect for the dead.
Behavior such as this is recognized immediately as horrific by any person living in the real world. This is why horror movies so frequently include corpse desecration.
I am more appalled by the assertion that this is a neutral act than I am by the original party's doing it in the first place.
I mean, seriously, WTF?
+1
I've played evil characters that would look on this with disgust
I didnt make a big deal of it at the game because everyone was getting a big laugh out of it and the game is supposed to be fun. But it did annoy me that they weren't taking the story or their characters seriously.I wasn't grossed out or anything. I have and still plan to throw all manner of twisted stuff at them. My only issue was really that they weren't being serious with the story which I'm putting a lot of work into. And really would actual people do this? You know I want my players to have their characters react to horrific things the way people really would.
I was just curious to get others views and concepts.
I REALLY love the idea of a ghost haunting them but think that might be a bit out there as he was just a minor NPC and not really high level or powerful.
I'd say a case by case scenario. A dead body shouldn't ALWAYS be considered off limits as 'gear'.
If my barbarian is getting swarmed and he crushes the head of one orc, then lifts the corpse over his head and throws it at two others in the thick of combat... "I" wouldn't consider that Evil... or even Desecrating the body...
If the group has not rogue... and there is NOTHING else in the room (bare bones dungeons) Then you are in fact looking at 150+ pounds of dead weight that can be used to weigh things down and what not...
Add in the fact that these are the mercenaries OWN traps...
/shrugs...
I don't really see TOO much of a problem with it.
I didnt make a big deal of it at the game because everyone was getting a big laugh out of it and the game is supposed to be fun. But it did annoy me that they weren't taking the story or their characters seriously.
I think this is the most important part though... Everyone was having a good time and laughing their heads off. We had a character cast levitate on a body once and carry it around like a balloon....
REALLY disturbing... Also REALLY funny...
Before I started slapping people down with Atonements and alignment shifts, I'd take them aside and find out what the heck is going on... If that particular week was too stressful at work and they were just blowing off steam... So be it.
If the Paladin was laughing his head of IN CHARACTER, and booting the head down the hall using his sword like a 9 iron.... THEN punish the players.
Sad as it is sometimes... Not EVERYTHING that characters do should be treated as 'in-character' stuff... If you do something so blatently off that my paladin would go pale and pass out, but "I" can't breathe because I'm laughing to hard... That shoudl be taken into account :)
I'd say before the game starts try to reestablish that we'll be starting 'in-character' and see what they do with the 'trap-finder' then.
i would consider it evil if what they were doing with the body served no purpose.