If you were a 20th Level Sorcerer going up against another 20th level Sorcerer in a spell duel what would you plan to do?
What notable spells would you want for buff?
What tactics would you use?
Attack Plan?
Defense Plan?
Contingency Plan?
Other Thoughts?
Assumptions:
-A reasonable period for buffing before the duel.
-Opponent is Imperial Bloodline (immune to death and energy drain)
-You are an Arcane, Shadow, or Imperial bloodline.
-Both sorcerers must have Wish as a spell known.
-Opponent is over-equipped vs standard wealth by level (epic stat array, +5 inherent for each stat, etc.)
I'd have already replaced my opponent with a simulacrum of him, and then use a simulacrum of myself to fight him.
My opponent's simulacrum would be instructed to 1) lose initiative; b) forgo/'fail' a critical saving throw after about 3 rounds of casting illusion spells that put on a good show vs my simulacrum's illusions. Then he fails and is defeated/killed.
There is no sensible way to fight a spell duel between two 20th level casters. All it needs is a correctly-worded wish that hasn't been pre-countered by the other's wishes. So it becomes a wealth battle instead, as the wishes get spent in advance.
Drop it down to 16th (or 17th for sorcs), so 9th level spells aren't available and there is a possibility of devising some sort of tactics. However, my original way of conducting the duel still stands. Who's going to stop you cheating?
Here's a potential plan:
1. Boost initiative in as many ways as possible, to ensure going first.
2. Cast Time Stop with a metamagic rod of maximize spell.
3. Use some spell or another to surround your opponent in a 5' radius nonmagical hemisphere of stone.
4. Use some spell or another to fill that hemisphere with nonmagical lava.
5. Cast Mage's Magnificent Enclosure with a metamagic rod of reach spell, centered on the sphere. (If that spell is not available to you, stand by the sphere and ready an action to cast Antimagic Field as soon as Time Stop ends.)
6. Once Time Stop ends, wait for your opponent to die from the 20d6 damage/round.
7. (optional) Resurrect your opponent if they weren't supposed to actually die.
1. boost initiative: Not much comes to mind here, but there is probably something that can be done.
2. Time Stop: Can do3. non-magical containment: Wall of stone does that - right? Can do.
4. create non-magical lava: I don't know any spells that do that.
5. Antimagic field: can do
The sticking point is creating the lava that won't wink out of existence as soon as the anti-magic field in created.
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Challenge him to a different sort of competition.
Make a challenge as to who can create the greatest castle, or the largest Golem, or something else.
There is no point to high level wizards fighting, it makes more sense for the duel to be a competition of skill rather than luck.
I would use Gate, and I would have items that boost my caster level so that I can Gate in more powerful monsters than normal.
You definitely want to go first. Even if you can't one round him, it can put him on the defensive, which mean he is not throwing offensive things at you.
Improved Initiative gives you a boost to init.
There is a spell whose name I can't remember, but it allows you to select certain spells to not work within a certain radius of you to include antimagic field.
Wraithstrike: Greater Spell Immunity can protect against Antimagic Field, but not Mage's Excellent Enclosure, which is part of the reason I suggested that as the preferable alternative (although I see now that I mis-typed the name).
Edit: Actually, looks like you were referring to something other than Greater Spell Immunity, which doesn't function in a radius and doesn't protect against spells that don't allow spell resistance.
I believe he's referring to Aroden's Spellbane.
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I believe he's referring to Aroden's Spellbane.Wraithstrike: Greater Spell Immunity can protect against Antimagic Field, but not Mage's Excellent Enclosure, which is part of the reason I suggested that as the preferable alternative (although I see now that I mis-typed the name).
Edit: Actually, looks like you were referring to something other than Greater Spell Immunity, which doesn't function in a radius and doesn't protect against spells that don't allow spell resistance.
Yeah, this is the spell I was talking about. I just could not remember the name.
There's no rule for it, but I'd say that two opposing Aroden Spellbanes, each set up to counter the other, would have effects similar to opposing spell turning spells on both casters.
Umm, two anti-magic fields explicitly have no effect on each other (per the spell description). I see where you're going with it, and your suggested effect is at the very least similar to one of the random results of spell turning. I think another GM option is to invoke an instance of Wild Magic (I know Inner Sea Magic has it, and maybe it's on the prd/pfsrd)
If I knew there was going to be a spell duel, and only spells would be allowed, I would have greater dispel magic spells -- retrained if necessary -- and scrolls at the highest caster level I could get them, and very obnoxiously counter spell every one of my opponent's high end spells, while using a quickened spell to accomplish my own combative casting.
Since your opponent has the Imperial bloodline, I suggest your sorceror should have the same bloodline. This way neither character can use death effects and energy drain on each other.
Will this be a spell duel as described within Ultimate Magic (specifically in Mastering Magic), or have you simply used the same (fairly common) terminology for an upcoming battle against a NPC?
If it is the former, are there any gentlemen's rules in play?
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I Think i need to know the rules of the duel if i am to give any other advice than get High initiative and have a rod of absorption in one hand. And in case he Does the same use AOE spells with dazing metamagic on.
I think I would try wording a wish in advance to the effect that I always go first in combat. Then, use time stop (perhaps with a maximize rod as suggested above) to gate in 4 big nasty monsters using 4 of your 5 rounds of time stop. That would require all 3 of your known 9th level spells. The 5th round I would cast antimagic shell and watch my 4 big bads go off on my opponent.
Alternatively, build a damage-based sorcerer and find a way to make your damage sonic-based and go first via the aforementioned wish and nuke him first.
Really, the key is to go first. The best way to do that in my opinion is to wish it to happen.
According to the terms of the duel, the opposing caster is a 20th level sorceror with the Imperial bloodline, so Energy Drain wouldn't work.
Furthermore, that bloodline is only available to humans, so if you want your sorceror to have that bloodline, you have to play a human.
If I were going to duel a 20th level Sorcerer and I am also a 20th level Sorcerer that first thing I'm going to do is try to figure out how to cheat, or at least exploit any loopholes in the rules. These things are over in one round usually so, it really is about going first with a kill strategy. I suppose Contingency is going to happen. Leadership should get you the helpers you need to cheat (an 18th level full caster sidekick) because like I said in the beginning, you need to cheat if possible. Simulacrum abuse is good, Clone is a great backup, Greater Planar Binding will call in the extraplanar backup.
I suppose my strategy would be to get my opponent next to the river Styx and bull rush them into it for a win.
no way around the duel. Our sorcerer is challenging the sorcerer king of a country. this is how leadership changes hands. You win they duel when you successfully wish your opponent dead...which is much easier when they are already dead. Both sorcerers start without any spells active. Magic items of all sorts are allowed. [Adept_Woodwright I don't know if this matches the rules in Ulitmate Magic]
With the various buffs it seems unlikely that a single round is going to end the fight. In our campaign Casters expecting trouble often have Moment of Prescience up - ensuring they make their first serious save. Contingency is also likely to prolong the battle somewhat.
I like the idea to wish yourself "first in initiative"
Clone, Mindblank with Improved Invisibility, feeblemind (sure to use their MoP) are all good ideas.
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I think one of the biggest defensive things you can do is to become untargetable.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
So, you may use a stone wall to prevent the other caster from targeting you.
I think one of the biggest defensive things you can do is to become untargetable.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.So, you may use a stone wall to prevent the other caster from targeting you.
That cuts both ways.
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That cuts both ways.I think one of the biggest defensive things you can do is to become untargetable.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.So, you may use a stone wall to prevent the other caster from targeting you.
True, unless you bring a way to negate the stone itself. A quickened stone wall will prevent your opponet from simply casting spells, forcing him to move or cast another spell first.
Perhaps one of the best ways to deal with him is to focus on illusions. Requires him to think about disbelieving what he sees in order to save. Works so long as you stay out of true seeing range, which is 120 ft. He'll waste an action or two casting spells on the wrong targets. So, one tactic might be:
Swift: Cast Quickened Stone Wall (Or obscuring mist, etc...)
Standard: Misdirection, with the order to appear as if your illusion has a readied action.
Move action: Move to more advantageous positioning, but never in range of his true seeing.
You can continuing throwing down illusions as a defensive maneuver, and as long as you don't cast any spells with visual effects, you can keep throwing out illusions and casting spells.
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Both sorcerers start without any spells active. Magic items of all sorts are allowed.
You need to find every spell in a can item you can and activate them all before the duel. Those rules mean no Contingency, no Wish, no Mind Blank, no Aroden's Spellbane, no Clone, no Mage Armor, no False Life, no See Invisibility, etc. It should be much more tilted toward offense as all the defensive spells need to be pre-cast.
Seriously the must not have any spells cast beforehand clause changes the whole scenario.
Id read through that at least once to get some ideas for questions to ask the GM. Worst thing would be to show up to the fight and be disqualified due to miscommunication. Plus, the immediate action counterspell (dueling counter), and save modifiers (dueling resolve) makes the fight a little more interesting.
For my argument, I'm assuming the Ultimate Magic rules.
I'd walk into the arena with Analyze Dweomer or greater arcane sight, to see what I'm dealing with defense wise. This will impact my opening move.
I'd do my best to win initiative -- several options have been listed -- and if it is an option, I'd open with a Mage's Disjunction (suppresses or kills all the items/pre buffs on opponent) quickened by a metamagic rod, followed by a readied action to counterspell. The opponent will be using 2 spells per round, both of which you might be sending back with the spell parry feat (from APG).
Without any question, I would make sure to talk with the GM about winning initiative with Wish. If allowed (I doubt it will be, to be honest), you certainly have to in order to stand any chance of going first. After all, your opponent has plot-wealth burning a Wish in his pocket.
More likely, I'd have my Spellbane set up to cancel Wish and other Spellbanes. (among spells I haven't figured out yet). Yeah, I'd need to dispel it myself later, but you're already planning to hold off on the finishing wish until your opponent is dead... You'll have a round to waste then.
I still haven't had time to figure out other pre game buffs or contingency plans. It's an interesting thought exercise.
no way around the duel. Our sorcerer is challenging the sorcerer king of a country. this is how leadership changes hands. You win they duel when you successfully wish your opponent dead...which is much easier when they are already dead. Both sorcerers start without any spells active. Magic items of all sorts are allowed. [Adept_Woodwright I don't know if this matches the rules in Ulitmate Magic]
With the various buffs it seems unlikely that a single round is going to end the fight. In our campaign Casters expecting trouble often have Moment of Prescience up - ensuring they make their first serious save. Contingency is also likely to prolong the battle somewhat.
I like the idea to wish yourself "first in initiative"
Clone, Mindblank with Improved Invisibility, feeblemind (sure to use their MoP) are all good ideas.
Does no "spells active" not keep all the buffs and moment of prescience out of the battle?
If not then i dont undestand what it meens.And if yes tjen you need to win the initiative and hit the other guy with presistant, dazing AOE spells one normal and one hasted. This is not a bad plan even if the MoP and several buffs are up as 4 saves and one fail meens loose is a good plan.
And agree to keep wish out or Else it gets silly.
If your opponent gets a turn, you've probably already lost. That is, assuming your opponent has just as smart of a plan as you do, which is likely.
No - if you have Contingency setup to cast antimagic field and keyed to you casting Emergency Force Sphere. So, they take their turn and you take an immediate action to interrupt them and cast Emergency Force Sphere which keys off your anti-magic field. Antimagic field won't affect your force sphere and you are basically impervious until you dismiss your antimagic field and cast whatever you want.
The ideal situation is to do enough research about your opponent that you can base your strategy on countering his moves while preventing him from countering your own.
Can you do any divinations -- through payment or by ally spellcasters if needed?
Can you do knowledge local/nobility/history checks to narrow down your opponents likely opening strategy? He would have likely dueled before, at the very least to gain his position.
You can do a knowledge arcana check to see if you can remember any references to spells your opponent has created (ie GM NPC/PC spells)
The first pass at solving this problem *is* to win initiative, then deny your opponent action. This method can be defeated by an appropriate strategy. You'll need a contingent plan in case your opponent wins initiative by some means, or else you are just as toast as he would have been. The more dangerous option is to accept the likelihood of losing initiative, and use your traits and feats for other things. Not sure how feasible that would be. I don't subscribe to the ideology that going first is an instant win all the time. It just usually is. A spell duel where you can prepare for the moment specifically is one of the few instances where it might be different.
A contingent antimagic field is a possible option, as it is dismissable. However, dismissing a spell takes a standard action, so you would need to have a swift action that would either end the fight or remove more than one of your opponents actions.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Somebody else won initiative. Spooky.