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Has anybody considered moving Spell Combat to 4th level, Spell Strike to 2nd, and Arcane Weapon to 1st? I think this is worth considering.
If Arcane Weapon took effect at 1st level, and improved every 4 levels thereafter, maxing at +5 at level 17, the +1 enhancement bonus would perfectly line up with the levels where the magus' BAB doesn't increase. Eventually they'd fall behind slightly, when +5 weapons become available, but even then they'd get some nifty abilities that they can add to the weapon.
The +1 enhancement bonus would be very good at 1st level. Being able to bypass DR/magic would be extremely useful, but not overpowered, compared to a Fighter with Power Attack and Cleave at level 1, a raging Barbarian with Power Attack, or a Paladin's Smite Evil. It would also help make the Magus more "magical" at low levels before it begins to combine spell casting and melee combat.
This would also move Spell Combat to a level where it's much more usable. As it is, granting it at level 2 is kind of a trap. By level 5 the character has come into her own, had a chance to pick up Combat Casting (and Power Attack and Weapon Focus) and received a much needed stat bump at 4th level.
Spell strike would only be moved to 2nd level to keep it from having an empty level.
I know some will argue that Spell Combat should be granted very early because it's the bread and butter of the class. I think (as do many posters) that it would be far too good an ability if the penalties were removed or lessened, which is the most commonly proposed fix. I'd much rather see it granted later than made too good.
Feedback would be appreciated, but let's keep it civil
I really, really like this. Combined with the proposal to make the various feats (armor training, etc) into Magus Arcana and increase their frequency to every odd level, I think this makes the Magus a real winner without being overpowered.
Of course, I'm new here, so I could be missing something.
I also like this idea. It would help a lot of the problems the class currently has.
I'll chirp in that I like it too!
That solution does seem like it would resolve a lot of the problems.
I really like it. I think it resolves most of the low level issues. I think he still might need a little something cool at lower-mid that does not rely on his spells, but this solves a good portion of his problems.
Sounds reasonable.
Has anybody considered moving Spell Combat to 4th level, Spell Strike to 2nd, and Arcane Weapon to 1st? I think this is worth considering.
...more...
Feedback would be appreciated, but let's keep it civil
That's crazy! No way, totally broken, you ruined the game.
~~ Takes time to read post ~~Hey, that's pretty good. I totally agree that Spell Combat is much more useful to a slightly higher level character.
Good one w0nkthesane.
Yeah, no. This doesn't actually address the issue, especially since it's expected that everyone is going to have a +5 weapon at the end of the game.
A reasonable suggestion, but it assumes that a magus will only use arcane weapon for enhancement bonuses.
Personally, I'd rather see a version of spell combat that actually works on low levels. But that's just me.
(Also, spellstrike is totally awesome at 1st level if the magus gets a 0-level touch spell.)
Well they can take advantage of GMW just like everyone else right? Basically this would just be giving them free magic weapon that scales up with level.
It's not enough to make the Magus completely worthwhile as the class is still stuck with a rather limited pool of resources to power most of it's features. It needs something to reduce it's dependency on burning through spell slots like candy.
What about this? When the Magus prepares spells of certain schools, they add their spell level to certain abilities (perhaps arcana?) that last until the spell gets used. Abjurations might increase the Magus' base AC, Evocations might increase damage or convert part of the magus' damage into an energy type, Transmutations might add movement, perhaps necromancy adds DR, etc.
This would then provide a modest long term benefit that eventually falls away as the magus burns through spells.
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Yeah, no. This doesn't actually address the issue, especially since it's expected that everyone is going to have a +5 weapon at the end of the game.
Even when everyone has a +5 weapon, though, the Magus has those free upgrades to gain special abilities, so he's still got a significant advantage. The difference is that it shifts away from to-hit and damage bonuses and towards those other abilities.
To those who don't want to use the Arcane Weapon bonus to gain extra enhancement bonuses, you don't have to. You're still free to apply it to whatever else. By moving it to level 1, though, you have the choice to keep your to-hit bonuses reasonably even with the full BAB classes.
As an aside, Enchanter Tom, I've seen the threads you start. I'd like to keep things polite and civil here. With that in mind, what would you propose as an alternative? I've seen plenty of dissension coming from you on the Magus playtest forums, but not much in the way of reasonable and well thought out solutions to the problems you perceive.
As an aside, Enchanter Tom,... what would you propose as an alternative? I've seen plenty of dissension coming from you on the Magus playtest forums, but not much in the way of reasonable and well thought out solutions to the problems you perceive.
+1 - something,.. anything constructive would be nice once in a while.
On topic:
I also like the flavour of Arcane Weapon working from lvl 1. I'm more into flavour than mechanics but the mechanics of your suggestion works well too! Good thinking wOnk.
Not bad, not bad at all. :-)
I think it would help keep the power scaling of the class more even. Great idea. In fact, very similar to an Arcane Duelist Bard who gets Arcane Strike as a 1st level feat instead of bardic Knowledge.
I like it. Solves a lot of problems.
A reasonable suggestion, but it assumes that a magus will only use arcane weapon for enhancement bonuses.
Personally, I'd rather see a version of spell combat that actually works on low levels. But that's just me.
(Also, spellstrike is totally awesome at 1st level if the magus gets a 0-level touch spell.)
Not really. At low levels, he can't pick up dancing or vorpal anyway, so he is left with flame, frost, shock, and their bursts. Burst isn't really worth it unless you have nothing else better to do, and 3.5 damage is ~= to +1 hit and +1 damage. Look at power attack, where you are trading 1 hit for 2 damage, which is a worse ratio, but is multiplied on a crit. This gives you the choice to power attack for the day or not.
Yeah, no. This doesn't actually address the issue, especially since it's expected that everyone is going to have a +5 weapon at the end of the game.
It does solve half the issues. The magus from the playing I've done show the magus as weak at the beginning and the end. This solves the weak at the beginning part. Magic Arcana can fix the higher levels of play. Such as the Arcane Accuracy, change that one to last for the combat and it can't be stacked. So if you want to burn 6th level spell slot for +6 it last for the duration of combat. This can be done by saying it last 1 round per Caster Level. Then just add combat casting as free feat and things are good to go.
As an aside, Enchanter Tom, I've seen the threads you start. I'd like to keep things polite and civil here. With that in mind, what would you propose as an alternative? I've seen plenty of dissension coming from you on the Magus playtest forums, but not much in the way of reasonable and well thought out solutions to the problems you perceive.
Personally, I think the poster's prime modus operandi is to criticize everything without adding anything positive to the conversation. Reviewing the recent posts from the profile reveals as much one would suspect than to inquire from an oracle. ;-)
Ermm, well, that does help the class at lower levels
but, ultimately, switching around a few abilities isn't doing much to address the fundamental issues of the class aside from a couple of early levels.
That is an interesting thought.
I like it, though I still want spell combat and spellstrike at low levels, just for options sake.
I think the solution is this: When you use spell combat you get a -2 to your MH weapon attack (not as crippling as -4) and your spell is cast at -2 caster level. You're not forced into a weird superfluous check (you don't provoke, but are forced to cast defensively) but can instead choose not to cast defensively if you choose. Your CL penalty would affect your concentration check, but it still makes combat casting desirable. You wouldn't be able to cast any spells with this maneuver until level 3, since your CL for it would be 0 or less. So you can't use spell combat with spells until 2 levels after you learn them; it takes you a little while to master the spells in order to cast them with one hand/while attacking.
Ya know meatrace, that does not to shabby. It does sound a bit complex and ya would need to make sure ya had the stats your spells twice. And it may force ya to lag behind even more with your already slower spell progression.
Although I don't oppose the idea, I don't see how it really solves anything. It seems to be a pretty minor change, that shifts the timing of acquiring each bonus a bit, but the Magus does not really fall behind in power until the higher levels anyway, when the bonus progression will pretty much get back into sync.
I think a better approach would be to give the Magus appropriate spells/buffs to deal with his issues. That would also fit in spirit with the class. We can let ourselves be inspired by the Clerical buffs that make him (possibly) better than a fighter at combat when prepared: Divine Favor, Divine Power and Divine/Righteous Might. Converting to arcane versions: Arcane Favor, Arcane Power and Arcane Might might be a bit too overpowered, but they can at least serve as inspirations.
Heck, why not have BAB raising spells?
Example:
Lesser Arcane Warrior: Raises BAB of the caster by 1 point for 1 round per level. (Could be a 1st level spell.)
Arcane Warrior: Raises BAB of the caster by 2 points for 1 round per level. (Could be a 2nd level spell.)
Greater Arcane Warrior: Raises BAB of the caster by 3 points for 1 round per level. (Could be a 3rd level spell.)
These spells would not stack, but would provide everything that a higher BAB provides while they last - including extra iterative attacks if applicable.
Alternatively we could have Arcane Warrior I to Arcane Warrior V with corresponding BAB increases, but that might be too strong, since the class might then outshine the fighter at higher levels.
Monte Cook's Mageblade from Arcana Evolved has the Arcane Weapon special ability with lvl 1, and it levels up every 4 levels.
Maybe they just didn't want to copy it completely.
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Although I don't oppose the idea, I don't see how it really solves anything. It seems to be a pretty minor change, that shifts the timing of acquiring each bonus a bit, but the Magus does not really fall behind in power until the higher levels anyway, when the bonus progression will pretty much get back into sync.
To this end, I don't in any way claim that my proposition will solve the Magus' late level problems, it just helps the early level ones. Any late game problems that may or may not exist will need to be solved some other way.
I don't have a ton of experience with late-game PF so I'm bowing out of that conversion. I'll post if I have any ideas, but honestly most of my games take place in the low to mid levels, rarely getting past the middle teens.
I think a better approach would be to give the Magus appropriate spells/buffs to deal with his issues. That would also fit in spirit with the class. We can let ourselves be inspired by the Clerical buffs that make him (possibly) better than a fighter at combat when prepared: Divine Favor, Divine Power and Divine/Righteous Might. Converting to arcane versions: Arcane Favor, Arcane Power and Arcane Might might be a bit too overpowered, but they can at least serve as inspirations.
Heck, why not have BAB raising spells?
Example:
Lesser Arcane Warrior: Raises BAB of the caster by 1 point for 1 round per level. (Could be a 1st level spell.)
Arcane Warrior: Raises BAB of the caster by 2 points for 1 round per level. (Could be a 2nd level spell.)
Greater Arcane Warrior: Raises BAB of the caster by 3 points for 1 round per level. (Could be a 3rd level spell.)These spells would not stack, but would provide everything that a higher BAB provides while they last - including extra iterative attacks if applicable.
Alternatively we could have Arcane Warrior I to Arcane Warrior V with corresponding BAB increases, but that might be too strong, since the class might then outshine the fighter at higher levels.
I'm not sure what the purpose of the BAB increasing spells would be. Other than extra attacks (which usually miss late game) I though the main desire for full BAB was for stuff like feat qualifications and to have better hit chance ALL the time. Otherwise there are plenty of arcane spells out there that can buff your chance to hit and/or decrease your enemy's AC. Am I missing something?
what would you propose as an alternative?
FULL BAB OR BUST BABY
what would you propose as an alternative?FULL BAB OR BUST BABY
Would the requirement/non-requirement for Full BAB depend on what else the class offers to boost it's fighting abilities rather than just applying Full BAB and hoping the designers don't make up for it by removing something else?
The Barbarian gets rage, the fighter gets weapon training and so on. Full BAB alone probably won't get the job done.
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BAB also-
-Directly contributes to both your CMB and CMD, which are 5 points different over 20 levels.
-Gives you much earlier access to critical melee feats such as power attack.
-Determines how much damage you deal with power attack, and how much AC you gain via combat expertise.
-Even if the final 4th attack from high BAB is considered by you as worth almost nothing, earlier access to the second attack at -5 is significant.
I'm not taking a side here, just wanted to point that out. As for outclassing a fighter, if we're talking raw damage potential please go see the DPR thread...
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So what i've learnt today is that combat maneuvers are worthless to everyone and power attack is nerfzored so not worth using. Oh, and boosting my AC is pointless, i'm going to be hit anyway, may as well take off my armour too... LOL.
As for the full-attack argument, I could just as easily point out Deadly Aim and an archer build, no full attack problems there generally and Deadly Aim still works off BAB.
There are countless ways to get a full attack off, and with the higher CMD from a higher BAB its harder for an enemy monster to make his standard attack then acrobatics away- thus two attacks a round is likely even if the level 6 high BAB meleer can't get a full attack off.
Your advocating your own argument here- you undervalue BAB and its various benefits- at least thats MY opinion :). But then again, the majority of optimal melee build includes Power Attack and the majority of all optimal ranged builds include Deadly Aim.
Monte Cook's Mageblade from Arcana Evolved has the Arcane Weapon special ability with lvl 1, and it levels up every 4 levels.
Maybe they just didn't want to copy it completely.
Fortunately, that is open content, so it wouldn't really be much of an issue.
Also, the "athame" power of the Mage Blade does diverge in many other ways, providing sentience to the weapon, day long ritual to create it, etc. The Arcane Weapon description is much more meat and potatoes mechanics.
Yes, fortunately it is. But I can undersstand that from a creative point of view, you don't want to copy an ability, but try to do it your own way.
Anyway, it's not so important. :)
So what i've learnt today is that combat maneuvers are worthless to everyone and power attack is nerfzored so not worth using. Oh, and boosting my AC is pointless, i'm going to be hit anyway, may as well take off my armour too... LOL.
As for the full-attack argument, I could just as easily point out Deadly Aim and an archer build, no full attack problems there generally and Deadly Aim still works off BAB.
There are countless ways to get a full attack off, and with the higher CMD from a higher BAB its harder for an enemy monster to make his standard attack then acrobatics away- thus two attacks a round is likely even if the level 6 high BAB meleer can't get a full attack off.
Your advocating your own argument here- you undervalue BAB and its various benefits- at least thats MY opinion :). But then again, the majority of optimal melee build includes Power Attack and the majority of all optimal ranged builds include Deadly Aim.
Such hostility.
As for archers, I didn't even mention those because they suffer from every single melee problem except one, and also have their own list of problems. Archers have been dead in the water since 3rd edition.
Yes, every melee build needs Power Attack. But since it doesn't do nearly as much anymore it doesn't make enough of a difference to make those classes contribute.
Nor does the same nerfed Power Attack salvage archers. Which is all Deadly Aim is.
Mistah, have you even looked at the changes pathfinder has made to the game? You keep speaking as if you are certain of things, but I have not seen you say 1 true thing.
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Such hostility.
As for archers, I didn't even mention those because they suffer from every single melee problem except one, and also have their own list of problems. Archers have been dead in the water since 3rd edition.
Yes, every melee build needs Power Attack. But since it doesn't do nearly as much anymore it doesn't make enough of a difference to make those classes contribute.
Nor does the same nerfed Power Attack salvage archers. Which is all Deadly Aim is.
You've been matching hostility with snideness for a while. Neither is very pretty.
Power attack is great, full BAB is useful. I have a Paladin with a pretty high Str but low Dex so CMD isn't as high as it could be but I still manage to not get snagged by the maneuvers that some enemy monsters are built for.
My Paladin has also dropped serious damage on full attacks when power attacking. When I hit more than once I ask if the base damage kills the enemy before bothering to roll dice. Dropping one to hit for three damage with a two hander is a great trade.
I am not arguing that melee characters are balanced with full casters. They are not. But your disdain for melee characters is, I believe, unfounded.
Mistah Green,
I recognize that you have some very strong beliefs about the game, but I would recommend taking a step back and asking yourself, "Do I know more about the game then the Paizo design team, and the vast majority of posters here, or is it possible that there are other opinions that could be as valid (or GASP, more valid) as my own?"
I think you will find that many people have good ideas and good concepts of game balance. You will probably also find that "fudging" isn't related to the issues you think it is, and that being dismissive towards people won't make your opinions seem more valid to anyone.
Anyway, as has been said before by the design and development folks (who know a thing or two), this is a class for the Ultimate MAGIC book. The idea is to create a class that uses spells and similar abilities to boost their abilities, not base fighting power. It is also not intended to make any other classes obsolete - even Eldritch knights. If you put yourself in the position of a designer, and try to balance a new class it will be more constructive then making sweeping statements about how whole parts of the game are unplayable.
who boy, that was some funny reading right there.