One thing I noticed about the Magus spells is that the only touch attack spell they get is Shocking Grasp. When they have a class ability to utilize touch spells, it's not very useful when they only have one such spell on their entire spell list! Why not add Chill Touch, Bestow Curse, Vampiric Touch, Touch of Fatigue, etc. to their spell list? Come to think of it, I don't see even a sigle Necromancy spell on their list. Is there a reason for this?
Actually, the more I think about it, would it really unbalance anything if they just had access to the entire Sor/Wiz spell list of 0th to 6th level? They still have to pay money and find the spells to add them to their spellbooks, and I can't really see any reason why having a larger selection of spells to choose from would unbalance them. They'll still be far behind Wizards in spellcasting due to having a much slower spell progression and missing out on 7th to 9th level spells entirely.
there will be other touch spells in Ultimate Magic
there will be other touch spells in Ultimate Magic
We hope so.
The lack of any type of energy resistance spells is a bit of a shock to me. I kind of expected at least resist energy on the list considering how much this class plays with the stuff you would think they would be a bit wary of being hit by it themselves.
No kidding. Additionally, given the lack of other touch attack spells it almost seems reasonable to allow them to channel ranged touch spells through melee weapons as well. It could avail the magus of a little extra oomph when needed -- scorching ray? acid arrow, for continuing acid damage to whatever you just hit? Yes please!
I think adding some divine spells might be good too, like flame blade, produce flame, shield of faith, divine favor, etc.
Ya know I really dislike the idea of adding divine spells. I just don't like the feel of them for this.
It just seems to me that Flame Blade is a great spell for a melee magic-user. It's a touch attack, which synergizes well with the 3/4 BAB, and it makes a great back-up weapon if disarmed or sundered.
I just dislike the idea of the fighter/mage class having cleric spells honestly. It just seems wrong to me.
Actually, the more I think about it, would it really unbalance anything if they just had access to the entire Sor/Wiz spell list of 0th to 6th level? They still have to pay money and find the spells to add them to their spellbooks, and I can't really see any reason why having a larger selection of spells to choose from would unbalance them. They'll still be far behind Wizards in spellcasting due to having a much slower spell progression and missing out on 7th to 9th level spells entirely.
+1 to this. What's the justification for giving them such a narrow spell list? Aren't they supposed to be "real" spellcasters? Let them cast off the wizard list.
+2 Just give them full access to the Wizard Spell list. It makes no sense to limit their spell list if they are capable of learn spells from wizard spellbooks.Actually, the more I think about it, would it really unbalance anything if they just had access to the entire Sor/Wiz spell list of 0th to 6th level? They still have to pay money and find the spells to add them to their spellbooks, and I can't really see any reason why having a larger selection of spells to choose from would unbalance them. They'll still be far behind Wizards in spellcasting due to having a much slower spell progression and missing out on 7th to 9th level spells entirely.+1 to this. What's the justification for giving them such a narrow spell list? Aren't they supposed to be "real" spellcasters? Let them cast off the wizard list.
They can only learn spells that are already on their list through wizard spellbooks. For Example, if Alaris does not have shocking grasp for whatever reason, and he comes across a wizard spellbook that has shocking grasp, fireball and polar ray, he can learn the shocking grasp. However, he cannot learn the fireball and polar ray. There is a line in the text about learning from wizard spellbooks that makes it pretty clear.
The full spell list is a bad idea on many levels really. First off they do not have the wiz/sorc spell progression. So they do not gain 3rd level spells when wizards gain them nor any other past 1st. If they used the wiz/sorc list you could not then alter the spells level for that class. I mean they could have some 4th level spells moved to 3rd {they get 3rd when wiz get 4th}
Next ya need to look at the big picture. Some spells might be abusable with the magus class ability, ability the wiz/sorc do not have and ability that were not taken into account. Class have spell lists because sometimes spells do not fit the theme of the class or may not work right with that class. It would take a lot of effort for the GM to make sure spells work fine for a class they were never made to work with and the class designers had not intended them to work with.
Also some GM's would auto ban this class if it had free reign of the wiz/sorc spell list. I know I would and am pretty sure I am not the only one who would do so. Besides what I said above its just to good if it has them all.
I just dislike the idea of the fighter/mage class having cleric spells honestly. It just seems wrong to me.
This kind of feeling is why, very likely, the Magus will always be gimped. People just FEEL divine casters should be more powerful. Both the Druid and the Cleric are more competent melee combatants, even after class nerfs.
I hope they add in some swift action touch spells because well the class could really use some spells to supplement spell combat and spell strike and quicken spell really isn't an option due to the high level modifier. Further because their primary hand is largely taken up with a melee weapon they really can't take advantage of metamagic rods like the full casters.
Spell Combat (Evocation) + Melee Strike + Swift Action Spellstrike would be a nice boost to the efficiency of the class.
The only spell from the Cleric list that I can see the Magus really benefiting from would be Silence because it would definitely help the Magus in a Mage-Slayer role (close to melee, silence to prevent most casting, use step up and arcanas to waste the mage).
When did I say more powerful? If it was me I'd have nerfed the hell out of cleric and druid.
The magues is a fighter/mage however. He should not have non arcane spells on his list. If ya want that, play a bard.
The magues is a fighter/mage however. He should not have non arcane spells on his list. If ya want that, play a bard.
I don't even know where to start explaining why that doesn't make sense.
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And this is why the Magus doesn't have "The Wizard Spell List" or the "Cleric Spell List". The Magus as THE MAGUS SPELL LIST
ANY Spell that is thematically appropriate for the Magus should be on the list.
A spell being on the Cleric list does not make it a Divine spell. A spell being cast by a DIVINE CASTER is a divine spell.
Look at Fireball, Core Rulebook pg 283. It says it's a Sorceror/Wizard Lvl 3 spell. If you go to page 44, you see that a Cleric with the fire domain can cast it. Is that cleric casting an arcane spell when they turn the horde into bbq goblin? NO! They are channeling the divine.
The Wizard gets to cast Wizard spells.
A Cleric gets to cast Cleric Spells.
The Magus gets to cast MAGUS SPELLS.
ANY Spell that is thematically appropriate for the Magus should be on the list.
... and my belief, which seems to be shared by many others, is that magus spellcasting is supposed to be thematically the same as wizard spellcasting, so the list of thematically appropriate Magus spells is the wizard spell list.
ANY Spell that is thematically appropriate for the Magus should be on the list.... and my belief, which seems to be shared by many others, is that magus spellcasting is supposed to be thematically the same as wizard spellcasting, so the list of thematically appropriate Magus spells is the wizard spell list.
Which is myopic. It is an arcane caster so you are automatically prejudiced against allowing "divine" spells on the list, whether they thematically fit or not.
Which is myopic. It is an arcane caster so you are automatically prejudiced against allowing "divine" spells on the list, whether they thematically fit or not.
And apparently you don't agree with which spells are thematically appropriate for the wizard spell list -- which is fine. But the easiest and most reasonable way to populate the magus spell list is by using the existing thematic benchmark.
Besides, since the wizard spell list is broad and large and will always be well-supported in supplemental material, giving the magus access to the wizard spell list also ensures the magus doesn't have future support issues.
I personally would love to see at least a few of the divine spells make it onto the magus spell list. Flame blade just makes sense, and given the current shortage of touch spells that people seem to think qualify for spell strike, adding the inflict line isn't out of line to add some needed oomph. If you are going to base the class off the bard's basic structure, including a few spells from the divine side of the house isn't out of line in my opinion. Especially with the focus on "flashy" and direct spells, it can reasonably be seen as an alter ego of the bard.
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Which is myopic. It is an arcane caster so you are automatically prejudiced against allowing "divine" spells on the list, whether they thematically fit or not.
What makes a spell arcane or divine?
Comprehend Languages, Cause Fear, Detect Undead, Endure Elements, Summon Monster, Protection from Alignment, Magic Weapon, Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, Command, Inflict Light Wounds
Are these arcane or divine spells?
Can you say both? All of these appear on both divine and arcane lists. So what makes a spell arcane or divine? In my mind it doesn't matter. They're all magic spells. So why throw a fit over putting spells from a cleric or druid's list on an arcane caster's list? Its been done for years, there is precedence for it, and if it fits the concept, I say go for it.
Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing bless weapon on the Magus list, I think its about time another caster gets it.
Which is myopic. It is an arcane caster so you are automatically prejudiced against allowing "divine" spells on the list, whether they thematically fit or not.And apparently you don't agree with which spells are thematically appropriate for the wizard spell list -- which is fine. But the easiest and most reasonable way to populate the magus spell list is by using the existing thematic benchmark.
Presumably the thematic benchmark should be "what benefits a melee caster" as opposed to "what the Wizard can cast."
Besides, since the wizard spell list is broad and large and will always be well-supported in supplemental material, giving the magus access to the wizard spell list also ensures the magus doesn't have future support issues.
Which does not mean that the Magus shouldn't independently be able to have their own spells. And if Paizo is going to abandon classes they create in non-core material like Wizards did with a number of base classes, why bother to create them? Why not just expand further upon classes already in existence or make prestige classes only?
Never mind the nonsensical use of a spellbook by the Magus.
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I'm pretty sure in Ultimate Magic we are going to see a crap load of Magus only spells. I'm pretty sure there will be at least 4 or 5 spells for each level that are designed specificly to be used with the Magus class not to mention what ever spells they share with bards, sorcs and Wizards.
I don't mind the spell book it actually makes sense that people have to study and train to be a Magus that it requires hard work and discipline in order to achieve a combination of melee fighter and arcane spell caster. When you have a Martial class it will have spent years training to become what it is not wake up one morning and can suddenly fight and cast spells.
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I'm pretty sure in Ultimate Magic we are going to see a crap load of Magus only spells. I'm pretty sure there will be at least 4 or 5 spells for each level that are designed specificly to be used with the Magus class not to mention what ever spells they share with bards, sorcs and Wizards.
I don't mind the spell book it actually makes sense that people have to study and train to be a Magus that it requires hard work and discipline in order to achieve a combination of melee fighter and arcane spell caster. When you have a Martial class it will have spent years training to become what it is not wake up one morning and can suddenly fight and cast spells.
A crapload is probably too much to expect. Inquistor didn't get a crapload of inquistor-only spells in APG.
Forcing players to use spells from the new book because there isn't the option to use similar spells from the Core Rulebook is a huge error imo.
Some players want it simple, all the spells they need in a book.
Having extra optional spells in UM, even if those are slighty better for the Magus, is ok, options are always good, some people wants to deal with many rulebooks.
But forcing players to copy the new Magus touch spells from UM to a piece of paper is wrong imo.
I actually don't have a problem with this particular aspect, given that they are going to need the book for the class information anyway. While it does mean potentially having 2 books open at a time, any 3.5 caster at the end of 3.5 generally had at least that many with all the splats, so 2 isn't really that big of a deal.
That being said, it would be nice to see a few more core spells included just because those tend to be the spells that most people are familiar with.
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And apparently you don't agree with which spells are thematically appropriate for the wizard spell list -- which is fine. But the easiest and most reasonable way to populate the magus spell list is by using the existing thematic benchmark.
That would be fine if the Magus was a derivative of the wizard and fighter in the form of a prestige class, but the Magus is itself.
Besides, since the wizard spell list is broad and large and will always be well-supported in supplemental material, giving the magus access to the wizard spell list also ensures the magus doesn't have future support issues.
That's a terrible design strategy. The support system for later product needs to be designed according to the needs of the players and the game itself. Yes, giving the Magus the Wizard list makes things easy later, but that doesn't mean the Magus would be of the same quality as it would be if designed up front as was best for itself with the knowledge that support later is key/
I will be using Magus NPC in our kingmaker campaign, and gonna adjust spell list so that Magus have at least 1 touch spell per level. (like touch of fatique for level 0, touch of idiocy for level 2 and so on..will use wizard spells if good one for magus is available for each level). Will post later if magus feels owerpowered with these changes.
I would suggest that the following could fix the spell situation:
"The magus cast spells from the wizard list, but because of his split focus he hasn't grasped all schools of magic yet. Choose four schools of magic. The magus can cast spells from these schools without any problems. Spells of other schools of magic require two spell slots to cast (OR *spells of other schools count as one spell level higher than normal* OR *the magus cannot cast spells that are not of these four schools of magic)."
Then have magus arcana that opens up new schools for the magus to use.
ANY Spell that is thematically appropriate for the Magus should be on the list.... and my belief, which seems to be shared by many others, is that magus spellcasting is supposed to be thematically the same as wizard spellcasting, so the list of thematically appropriate Magus spells is the wizard spell list.
+1 Yep, pretty much.
I was actually quite happy when I had a first look on the Magus spell list since it did not limit itself to combat spells.
Now some time later after reading the class several times it has become plain that more touch spells will be vital, especially since some like bestow curse and vamp touch aren´t on the list.
Calcific Touch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/c/calcific-touch would be a welcome addition to the list, but I hope we will see an arcana that allows the Magus to get some spells from other classes. Bards have some nice swashbuckly spells for example.
But even if there are soo many things you could add to the list, some just don´t fit:
Summon Monster: Doesn´t really seem to fit.
Blade Barrier: Yes please^^
Ms Sword:Yes please^^
Protection from Evil/...:Its extremly usefull for its ability to protect against summoned creatures, but no real reason to add it.
The Magus spell list really shines compaired to the Duskblades when it comes to showing off^^
I wouldn't mind the "Magus spell list" as much if it actually had anything unique on it.
It doesn't.
The Magus doesn't have a single non-wizard/sorc spell. It doesn't have a single wizard/sorc spell available at an earlier level. Right now, the "Magus spell list" is literally "The wizard/sorcerer spell list," only detruncated.
Incidentally, until Spellstrike has a single purpose behind it, don't bother. It doesn't let you attack and hit with your spell. The only thing it does is let you trade a touch attack for a weapon attack - aka, the only thing it does is make casting harder.
Well, to be fair, the Magus spell list released along with this version of the class contains only spells that have already been released either in the Core Rulebook or in the Advanced Player's Guide. With a book called Ultimate Magic, I would not be surprised if some of the spells contained within it are Magus only, just as I would not be surprised if I see several touch spells in it when it comes out.
I just think it would be easier if they had access to the sorcerer/wizard list of spells. It would make updates easier, it would be easier than creating a new list, and there really isn't a reason a fighter/wizard class should be restricted from certain wizard spells. It would also make it easier for the magus to be backwards compatible with 3.5.
Well, to be fair, the Magus spell list released along with this version of the class contains only spells that have already been released either in the Core Rulebook or in the Advanced Player's Guide. With a book called Ultimate Magic, I would not be surprised if some of the spells contained within it are Magus only, just as I would not be surprised if I see several touch spells in it when it comes out.
Wave Oracle.
finished making magus I will be playing him soon so this is just my reaction to the Magus spell list.
I like that it is a prepared caster and not a spontaneous caster, I like the idea of a learning how to use magic and fight with a sword in equal measure.
I do wish that the Magus could learn more touch spells that are all ready on the Wizard/ Sorcerer list like Chill Touch and Ghoul Touch. But I can see not having Necromancy spells on the list.
It would also be cool to be able to add more spells to the list in some way, maybe an Magus arcana or feat.
Over all I think that the spell list is pretty good, and I like the class over all,
I will add more later after I play it
Wave Oracle.
Pardon?
Wave Oracle.Pardon?
Wave Oracle has a mystery that applies to like one spell, and none others. We were told before the book was released that the Oracle would get more spells added to use the mystery. It didn't happen. It even applies to their Final Revelation.
The lesson here is "what may be in the book when it comes out" is utterly meaningless
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Wave Oracle.Pardon?Wave Oracle has a mystery that applies to like one spell, and none others. We were told before the book was released that the Oracle would get more spells added to use the mystery. It didn't happen. It even applies to their Final Revelation.
The lesson here is "what may be in the book when it comes out" is utterly meaningless
Then again, we were told that there will be summoner-specific spells and they were, so hatching on to the Wave Oracle like some Holy Grail Of Unfulfilled Promises isn't that jazzy.
Then again, we were told that there will be summoner-specific spells and they were, so hatching on to the Wave Oracle like some Holy Grail Of Unfulfilled Promises isn't that jazzy.Wave Oracle.Pardon?Wave Oracle has a mystery that applies to like one spell, and none others. We were told before the book was released that the Oracle would get more spells added to use the mystery. It didn't happen. It even applies to their Final Revelation.
The lesson here is "what may be in the book when it comes out" is utterly meaningless
To put the Wave Oracle another way, "Don't count your eggs until you can see them much less discover how many have hatched"
You can claim "Well, maybe they'll fix the spell problem later." Or, well, maybe they won't. We can't rate or judge things we haven't seen.