He may have a relevant medical reason for saying what he said.Other than describing hallucinations or schizophrenia (which is not the OP's diagnosis), I don't believe there is any such thing as a relevant medical reason to invoke the Devil.
Agreed.
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There is nothing wrong with D&D or Pathfinder. However, there is a lot wrong with religion. How many weird and wacky things have been done in the name of religion!
You definitely need a new therapist. He should not be imparting his personal moral beliefs on a patient.
"You should not read the Harry Potter series because it promotes magic."
"You should not read the Twilight series because it is simply horrible."
"You should not read the Bible because it promotes a delusional belief in a fictional deity."
Everyone has an opinion. It does not make it right.
You need to judge if your faith conflicts with this game. If you have read through the rulebook and decided that it contains nothing morally suspect or impacts on your disorder, then you should be the ultimate judge.
Music is the devil. Roleplaying games is the devil. Goody Proctor is the devil.
We do not live in some isolated Puritan society that feared demons and devils lurked in the big old dark woods. Basically, it comes down to a lot of ignorant Christians who play the moral the place for the rest of us.
They have the freedom to practice their religion. They have the freedom to live the life they choose. I just wish they would get the message and keep it to themselves.
In saying all that, your Pastor sounds like he has a better view of the matter.
My opinion is that the OP should get a second therapist for a professional opinion of his first therapist.
This should be standard practice in therapy, in my opinion. A bad therapist can do a lot of harm, and if a person can't even go to someone else for a reality check, things can be bad.
I have opinions about psychotherapy, and I believe that they are informed opinions.
I also have opinions about religion, but I'll leave them out of this forum.
OP should have asked this question on the >>Ask *James Jacobs* ALL your Questions Here!<< thread IMO
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My mom's church once had a pair of guest speakers come to talk about temptation. Among the things they talked about were things that could tempt people to sin. Eventually the dialogue went this way, alternating between speakers.
"Even some games can tempt you."
"Games? What kind of games?"
"Roleplaying games, like Dungeons & Dragons."
And they continued this discussion for about 30 seconds, at which point my mom had to interrupt.
"I'm sorry, but my son grew up playing those games, and now he's a writer for those games. He was a good kid. He didn't do drugs, he didn't get anyone pregnant, and he wasn't out all hours of the night drinking or vandalizing things. Even if he was out late, I knew he was out at a friend's house, playing D&D and not hurting anyone. These games are not harmful at all."
The speakers were floored. They had been repeating this spiel because it was what they were taught. Confronted with evidence to the contrary... they listened. Everyone spent several minutes talking about RPGs and my mom gave a lot of positive information about them. Everyone left with a much better idea of what RPGs are about, and that they don't lead to temptation or evil.
(In other words, my mom is awesome. Heck, she even played D&D with my sister Keri a couple of times when Keri was learning how to play.)
So... your therapist is wrong. He could merely be misinformed, or he could be a blockhead about this. Gaming isn't a pathway to Hell. Now, if you have issues dealing with telling the difference between fantasy and reality, gaming may not be for you, but it shouldn't be an issue for bipolars.
Sean that is an awesome story, I was at a church convention when I was younger and a speaker said that same thing and I chickened out. Your mom is awesome
In other words, my mom is awesome.
Some people get all the luck! :) That's a really great story for several reasons.
Oh boy, one of these threads. >.<;
Okay.
1. I'm a Christian.
2. I play d&d/Pathfinder.
3. Playing d&d/pathfinder doesn't make you a "bad Christian." Sure, one could argue that d&d is a distraction from more worthwhile things, but not any more than TV, video games, facebook, and other forms of "time suck." Some people may use d&d in dark or perverted ways, but you don't have to. It's the same thing as the internet.
4. If you have a good understanding of truth, (as in real reality, reality through God's perspective) I think this is a non-issue. Well, if those you play the game with are playing the game in said "dark or perverted ways," there might be an issue. Otherwise, have fun.
well i am kind of concerned for you EWHM. i think most posters have done a good job explaining out that,NO Pathfinder is not the work of the devil and does not go against your faith. HOWEVER! I think the main concern should be your disorder!!!! I think you should SERIOUSLY find a new therapist and FAST!!!!!!! One that has an understanding of roleplaying games, most actually DO as many USE roleplaying in therapy.
"Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil."
THAT statement right there says to me he has no understanding of role playing games and is more concerned giving you personal advice than treating your disorder. Take it from someone who dated a girl who was bipolar and has a REALLY good understanding of the disorder. I don't want to scare you but what truly concerns me is he is unable to address (from lack of actually knowing RPG's)that playing a roleplaying game could possibly aggravate your disorder,cause you to have episodes, and be a danger to you! It's also possible however that it may be a good treatment FOR your disorder. SO i IMPLORE you to PLEASE find another therapist based on that information. I'm not aware of the severity of your condition, how well your medications are keeping it in check, or your previous episodes but, in all things medical a profesional second opion is always the best course.
now i know some readers may be thinking "wow his statement sounds way extreme" but you truly have to have an understanding what bipolar disorder is and how serious a condition it is. i hate to put you under a microscope EWHM but i think the readers here do need to know a little about bipolar disorder BEFORE there so eager to post there opinions. because TRULY it's not really a case of your religion so much as how pathfinder could effect your condition.
************************************************************************
Bipolar disorder is a mental condition. It is an illness that affects thoughts, feelings, perceptions and behavior ... even how a person feels physically. Bipolar disorder is a form of manic-depression. Most often, a person with manic-depression experiences moods that shift from high to low and back again in varying degrees of severity. The two poles of bipolar disorder are mania and depression. This is the least complicated form of the illness.
Depression might be identified by:
* Refusing to get out of bed for days on end
* Sleeping much more than usual
* Being tired all the time but unable to sleep
* Having bouts of uncontrollable crying
* Becoming entirely uninterested in things you once enjoyed
* Paying no attention to daily responsibilities
* Feeling hopeless, helpless or worthless for a sustained period
of time
* Becoming unable to make simple decisions
* Wanting to die
Mania might include:
* Feeling like you can do anything, even something unsafe or illegal
* Needing very little sleep, yet never feeling tired
* Dressing flamboyantly, spending money extravagantly, living
recklessly
* Having increased sexual desires, perhaps even indulging in risky
sexual behaviors
* Experiencing hallucinations or delusions
* Feeling filled with energy
*************************************************************************
Now that everyone is informed im sure everyone can now realize how pathfinder COULD possibly harm, aggravate his condition,or put EWHM at sever risk. AND why im deeply concerned EWHM find a new therpist. And why it's so critical his therapist have a CLEAR understanding about roleplaying games.
EWHM-
I'm actually aghast by your therapists incompetency to not address the danger the game could have on you. I think for the time being you should NOT play pathfinder or any other roleplaying games UNTIL you can find a therapist who can address how these games might effect your condition.
Again, PLEASE FIND A THERAPIST WHO HAS AN UNDERSTANDING OF ROLEPLAYING GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Funny story that may relate to the current question, I mentioned that I play Dungeons and Dragons during my first interview for a teaching job and the AP asked if there was some controversy surrounding the game. I was about to reply that there was, but it was largely blown out of proportion and happened a long time ago when another AP interrupted and said it was Pokemon, not Dungeons and Dragons, that she was thinking of.
I suppose the thing I learned from this is that everything from silly card games to ouija boards has been labeled evil at one time or another, but most games are really just empty boxes waiting to be filled by the players. Pathfinder is what you make of it. It's no more evil than a deck of cards or a board game.
So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
..I'm going to go with 'Pretending to kill people.'
..that's more than enough incentive for some folks to advise other folks not to play.
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This is only my 2 cents, but as a pathfinder player/gm, a member of an AG church, and a licensed minister, I felt like I should chime in.
People who claim DnD, Pathfinder, etc are evil and promote the devil, are uninformed and ignorant. It, as previously mentioned, is a stigma attached to the genre in the 80s by Chic Traks and other fundalmentalist groups. These are also people who believe that any tattoo is a sin(the bible only speaks of getting tattoos as a sign of witchcraft as wrong, not all tattoos), that halloween is a strictly pagan holiday,that christmas and easter have no pagan influences whatsoever(ALL holidays have both pagan and christian influences in thier traditions), that picketing abortion clinics is what Jesus would want them to do(the only people Jesus ever spoke out against we're the ones who were chastising the people they thought were wrong and acting holier than thou), and are just as in line with Gods message of love as the christians who perpertrated the crusades and the inquisition.
There is nothing wrong with the game in and of itself, thier main complaint is the use of magic and level of violence (combat and spells are the bulk of the rules system) Ironically these same people wholeheartedly support the chronicles of narnia and the lord of the rings. both of which are filled with violence and magic. even the bible is filled with violence and early christians(including the apostles generation) practiced what the bible and todays believers would call magic. can it be taken too far? yes. anything can. as long as you remember it is just a game, and are of an intelligence level that you are capable of seperating fantasy from reality, there is absolutely nothing wrong with playing the game.
again, this is ONLY my opinion on the subject, and if I have offended anyone here and thier beliefs, I am sorry, it was not my intent. this is a subject which I am fairly passionate about. both this specific one, and also the broader one of misinterpeting and/or misconstruing the gospel to promote your own beliefs.
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Your should check your therapist's qualifications. I know that in the UK you don't need any meaningful qualifications to describe yourself as a therapist and work privately (unlike a psychologist or a psychiatrist). Perhaps the same is true where you live?
Of course, odd people can still achieve qualifications but it might be interesting to look into.
At some point though it might be worthwhile to sit back, think about what he said and have a quiet chuckle to yourself.
Ok I am not saying that I agree with your therapist, but it sounds like he is a Christian Therapist, which has Christianity as part of the therapy which is not a bad thing as Spirituality is part of mental health, so for him to talk about Christian believe is not a problem with with me, However I disagree with him on his assessment of RPG and he probably needs to talk to Sean K Reynolds mom.
So I any way ditching your Therapist may not be the best way to go right now. RPGs will always have some stigma and some people will always think that they are bad or something. Some of those people are not idiots just miss informed. Your therapist may just be misinformed.
Anyway I think that you have more input on this topic they you need so good luck with your bad self.
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"You should not read the Twilight series because it is simply horrible."
No, his Therapist would probably object to it because it was written by a Mormon, not because it was HORRIBLY WRITTEN by someone who happened to be a mormon. And was terrible. And teenage girls like it, which is an indicator to it's abysmallness.
Just take your meds and do what you feel is right. And for the love of all that is holy, stay away from the T*~+light series.
Wow. If a counseling professional said something like that here in Norway, he might well have his career behind himself. It is not the role of a therapist to promote religion, as it has NO home in professional psychology. I am a child care/welfare councilor, and if I were to suggest that a child do/do not pursue an interest based on my personal religious or political views, I would certainly be fired as soon as someone found out.
If you have trouble separating reality and fantasy, then I would suggest that you do not play pathfinder, or pursue any other escapism-oriented hobby. But that decision I shall not presume to take for you.
I would go into a more elaborate debate about the legitimacy of religion defaming a hobby that offers escapism with social benefits through cohesion with like-minded, and sharing of experiences... But since the world has become so ridiculously PC and religions are given far more respect than they offer in return, and thus deserve, I believe it would be a one way ticket to report limbo due to "defamation". So, let's not go there.
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I have played games with all sorts of people with all sorts of religious beliefs, Catholic, Church of England, Baptist, Pagan, Aethiest, Agnostic, Muslim and Buddhist. Heck, the games club I attend on a Thursday is kindly hosted by a Church of England vicar.
None of these people consider RPG's to be against their faith because it isn't. It is no more harmful than a game of patience.
Talk to your pastor, say that this advice concerns you and ask what he thinks. After all a good pastor is there to give you spiritual guidance and advice.
IMO your therapist should tell you if someone with bipolar disorder can play those games and let the religion aside.
I would say get a new therapist, or at least keep this gaming subject away from him. Your pastor I the person of authority here. An individual who is not a man of the cloth is not devoted full to the religion, does not live the religion, and is prone to incorrect stances. It is almost like the differences between asking a biologist, and some one who just minored it in collage years ago.
Now if there are psychological or medical reason he gives that is another matter entirely.
My 2 cent anyway.
Wow. If a counseling professional said something like that here in Norway, he might well have his career behind himself. It is not the role of a therapist to promote religion, as it has NO home in professional psychology. I am a child care/welfare councilor, and if I were to suggest that a child do/do not pursue an interest based on my personal religious or political views, I would certainly be fired as soon as someone found out.
I was thinking along these lines as well.
I am very, VERY interested to read what your therapist says to back up his statements on 14th, please remember to keep us informed.
Also, try to invite him to this forum, I really do mean it. He might be impressed by the fact that he will be among polite, intelligent, religious and educated people (well most of us actually :)) seriously wanting to know why someone could use such strong words against a hobby.
Besides, I currently play with a MORMON that plays a corpse-raising necromancer.
I was thinking along these lines as well.Wow. If a counseling professional said something like that here in Norway, he might well have his career behind himself. It is not the role of a therapist to promote religion, as it has NO home in professional psychology. I am a child care/welfare councilor, and if I were to suggest that a child do/do not pursue an interest based on my personal religious or political views, I would certainly be fired as soon as someone found out.
Same here in the UK - my wife is a therapist (and yes, you do need qualifications, and membership of an accrediting body, such as the BACP - anything else makes you a charlatan) and the key position is to be non-judgemental. Furthermore, one of the BACP's ethical principles is 'autonomy' which is defined as 'respect for the client's right to be self governing.' Having said that - if the phrase 'promotes the work of the Devil' was used... well, actually, fundamentally it's irrelevant whether it does or not. For a therapist to actually dictate, and say 'Shouldn't', rather than, say, 'have you considered' or 'how does playing Pathfinder make you feel? Is that helpful to you?' is just a huge no no.
I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
BS. That is what it is. This therapist is mixing up his religious views with the treatment of a mental disorder. Its just a game! Millions of people have had their lives destroyed from playing the game of poker, and yet there is no "devil worship" stigma attached to that game. Its BS and they should know better.
I don't think Protestantism approves of fantasy in any context.
PS. Therapist != psychiatrist. And I am pretty sure this is a church affiliated "therapist" and not a psychiatrist.
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I would just add one thing,
I am unfamiliar with the tennants of your particular faith and so I would suspect are some others posting on this thread.
I understand some are sharing their experiences as a christian, but I think that you should take some of what they say on board and then look agin at the tennants of your faith.
A disclaimer I am not a christian, but wish you good luck.
So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?..I'm going to go with 'Pretending to kill people.'
..that's more than enough incentive for some folks to advise other folks not to play.
If that's the case then they have to dump the Bible because the body count in that book is fricking ENORMOUS.
Also? It Kinda promotes human sacrifice. God asking Abe to shiv his own kid?
(GOD: Just F**kin' witcha Abe! Wow! You Really were going to it weren't you? You're pretty hard core man!")
I mean I know there's a difference between reading about it and pretending to do it, but some of these religious people take that book pretty seriously.
Personally I think that video games would be more of a concern with the whole killing people thing.
Of course the above should be taken with a tongue firmly placed in cheek....
Oh and to the OP? your therapist is an idiot. Dump Him / Her.
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This is why your therapist thinks you should stop playing the game. And if it were in any way accurate, I'd concur- anyone who'd get that upset over the death of a character named "Black Leaf" probably deserves what happens to Marcie.
If, on the other hand, your gaming sessions don't look like scenes from a Roman Polanski film, trust your own judgment; keep the books, and find a therapist more concerned with helping you than controlling you.
We need more of a "why" the therapist made that call. If he did it for sound professional reasons that's one thing. If he did it because he could not separate his religous views from his professional evaluation, than a second PROFESSIONAL opinion might be in order.
You do not have to be a "professional" to be a "therapist." This "therapist" is clearly associated with the Assemblies of God and does not run his own practice - your psychologist does not normally have your preacher's phone number. I would recommend some one with a clear and valid disorder to see a licensed professional. Probably a psychiatrist because I am pretty sure bipolar is usually treated with drugs.
If you're bipolar, it means you have manic episodes and depressions. It's not schizophrenia, people. Maybe letting off the roleplaying while seriously up or down would be a good idea, but if you're not currently in such a state, there's no reason why you shouldn't play RPGs. Of course, there may be other reasons, and it might not be a simple bipolar disorder. However, if the therapist actually said that it was the work of the devil, I agree. Run, don't walk. Your faith and your moral relationships to supernatural entities, made-up or not, is no business of your therapist, ever.
RPG's have a bad rap because of a few stupid people in prior generations who let the game get blamed for things the game had nothing to do with.
That being said:
If you believe the Golarion gods are real, you should probably put the book away.
This is true whether or not you are a Christian :)
In all seriousness- RPG's are no more threatening to your Christianity than playing Monopoly, Risk, or any such game.
The basic principle is exactly the same. You are Role Playing. i.e. pretending you are something you are not.
No one thinks you are really the hat when you move the piece around the Monopoly board, or that you are actually a dictator trying to conquer the world when you play Risk.
D&D, Pathfinder, and RPG's in general are *the exact same thing* but with different pieces on a different game board.
Ask them to a game of Clue.
Ask them if they really murdered Peabody (or whoever it is)
With any luck- they'll say no.. And laugh.
Why?
Because its just a GAME. Thats what the G in RPG stands for.
I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
I wrote a lengthy response about my being a religious person and how I think thinking D&D is evil is silly and... but you know, that's not really the point.
In my personal opinion, this is not something that your therapist or pastor should be telling you what to do. Read through the gaming books, read pertinent passages in the Bible, pray, and do what you think is right for yourself. God has given you the ability to discern what is right and wrong; you should be able to figure this out for yourself.
I absolutely don't believe D&D will corrupt any one or convert you to the devil, but I also think fantasy roleplaying games are not for everyone, and if you're in therapy, who knows? Perhaps there ARE other things you should be focusing on before engaging in a game that requires often extremely intense imaginative play. (But perhaps it would also be a safe outlet for you. I don't know.)
I do think your therapist worded his advice in a very poor way. I wouldn't suggest leaving therapy--bipolar disorder is quite a struggle--but seeking out another therapist's opinion may be a good idea.
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Don't stop seeing a therapist, but definitely consider seeing another therapist. If he is an actual licensed therapist (and not just a church affiliated un-licensed quack), his behavior can (and should) be reported to a the state review board. Unless there was a medical reason for him to have concerns about you playing fantasy games, his comments were completely out of line. If he does have reasons to be concerned about you playing fantasy games, his comments were still out of line because it sounds as though he was trying to exploit your religious beliefs in order to get the desired result.
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HANG ON PEOPLE!!!!!!
We do not have the whole story of the OPs disorder. Yes, on the surface it seems like the therapist overstepped their professional boundary. BUT there is NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION here to recommend that the OP walk away from the therapist.
How many of you are professional therapists that you can make this call without a thorough investigation of the OPs status? You are treading on VERY DANGEROUS ground by making those suggestions.
To the OP: TALK TO YOUR THERAPIST! Find out if there is a SOLID reason based on your individual case of bi-polar disorder that you should not play. If your individual case merits putting Pathfinder on the shelf for the time being then you should do so.
Again, TALK TO YOUR THERAPIST, and your Pastor! They are the people you should be listening to!
Exactly. We have no idea how long the OP has been seeing this particular therapist and how his manic/depressed episodes manifest themselves. I don't think anyone should be telling the OP to leave his therapist. Bipolar disorder is a life-threatening mental illness. Treating the disease is infinitely more important than playing a game.
With the little information we have it seems the therapist has over-stepped his bounds, but fantasy and reality can blur with folks who have this disease and the therapist may be concerned about how intense roleplaying activities will effect the OP especially if the OP is in a manic state.
I think Mageye has the right idea about talking to his therapist about the reason's why the therapist said what he said.
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"You should not read the Twilight series because it is simply horrible."No, his Therapist would probably object to it because it was written by a Mormon, not because it was HORRIBLY WRITTEN by someone who happened to be a mormon. And was terrible. And teenage girls like it, which is an indicator to it's abysmallness.
Just take your meds and do what you feel is right. And for the love of all that is holy, stay away from the t!@&light series.
:D
Get away from the rapist! I mean the the-rapist! Erm...err...you know what I mean.
As for DnD...AAAAAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!! There are DEMONS! And Magic! And SKELETIONS! OMG! What are you trying to do? Steal my soul? Heathens! I smite thee and exorcise thee and cast thee out, for I have come to Salem to purge it of the likes of you!
And beware the evil of Pokemon too! I SMITE THEE PIKACHU!!!!
*Ahem*
Ok seriously, consider what Jesus told the Pharisees about men teaching the rules of man as doctrine. Some people just need something to villify, either to feel better and more "righteous" about themselves, or because they hope that by "standing against evil", they are doing God's work, rather than *really* doing God's work by living in obedience to God. It's messed up, convoluted, and has been happening for over 2000 years.
If someone wants to tell you that DnD or Pathfinder is evil, ask them why they think so. Assess their reasons.
Because the system talks about demons? Well, so does the bible.
Because it involves magic? Now here you need to be a little more saavy with terms, because magic in the real world invariably has to do with the spiritual realm and actual demonic forces. BUT 'magic' in a fantasy setting is very much another aspect of reality, kind of a school of science unique to the setting, but flashier and cooler, and understood by alot fewer. Consider this: would the same thing cease to be evil if it was called, say, psionics?
Keep in mind, however, that other factors may come into play in the course of your gaming experience. On the one hand, you may find more chances to exercise your integrity and honesty, which will be a good thing- you can honour the God you worship in real life, even as you play a game, through the way you play the game-with integrity, honesty and regard for others. Conversely, if your parents are telling you to stop playing, then you may have to consider the command to honor your parents, and to be honest.
But the game on its own? Remember what the history of the witch trials taught us- there will always be paranoid fanatics, who claim to be doing God's work, but in reality do nothing of the sort. Have nothing to do with them.
I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
I think there is nothing about DnD that should stop you from playing. Why? Because 1) The game is about imagination, not reality, and 2) There is nothing in DnD that is worse than what is in the Bible.
Cheers!
Yes, but only if you play with a Christian theologian or exorcist. Now, I'm not an exorcist, but as a theologian, I know some, so I'm doubly covered. Now you've heard from an expert who's degree is not all touchy-feely. Feel better? I do.