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. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil.
Hi Mageye! First, thank you for saying something. A lot of people do what practitioners tell them without question; wanting to understand how a decision is beneficial to you is great. It's also your right as a patient! I'm going to put the mental health professional hat on for a moment, though. I'm in the US. So, like posters talking about Norway and UK systems, consider that a disclaimer if you are not in the same geographical area.
While I am unaware of the exact qualifications of your therapist, I can assure you if he is licensed in any form to perform services for a bipolar disorder (ie. Psychotherapy) in any state there is a code of ethics attached to that. He would also be required to complete a degree which stressed removal of beliefs/biases from professional practice as part of a professional code of conduct and ethics. Examples of the licenses I speak of include Licensed Professional Counselor (LPC) and Licensed Master of Social Work (LMSW) along with any appropriate advanced licensure in either area. If his licensure stems from a non-governmental institution he is not trained to perform psychotherapy; please stop seeing him and seek someone who has proper training. I'm assuming he is properly licensed for the purposes of the rest of my remarks.
Dictating faith to you as a part of this practice is a gross breach of said professional ethics and conduct for any of the specified licenses. While having a mental health professional providing services who understands and celebrates your faith is fantastic, he is displaying inappropriate boundaries between beliefs/practice and a failing of culturally competent practice. I see no reason with the information you gave for the therapist to have made this call for mental health purposes; citing faith as the 'why' to this call is not appropriate professional practice even if it was, Mageye.
Some things to try:
A) Discuss with your therapist appropriate boundaries between dictations of faith/belief and your treatment. You have the right as a patient to make this request and have it honored, as your word is the final determinant in outpatient treatment. See http://www.healthyminds.org/Main-Topic/Patient-Bill-of-Rights.aspx.
B) Therapy is supposed to be a safe place. Part of therapy being a safe place is the absence of value judgments. "RPGS are the work of the devil" is a value judgment. Discussing this with your therapist would be a good idea.
C) If he is unable to undergo practice without adherence to this separation of beliefs/profession or otherwise feels unable to resolve his feelings on RPGs in his work with you, that's OK. But he has an ethical and professional obligation to refer you to another practitioner/agency able to meet your needs because in this case he is unfit to provide services to you.
D) Ask under what model of treatment this suggestion was made and/or what mode of treatment your therapist is taking, what this involves, etc. You have a right to be informed about the kind of treatment you are receiving (see bill of rights, above). This is also a trick question: "my professional expertise", "traditional models", "I do not use a model, only my training" are not valid answers.
E) If at any point there is any discussion on your therapist's part about any of the above not applying to him or his practice, that he does not belong to a licensure and/or professional association which requires the above, or he denies you the right to have final determination in the course of your treatment he runs the risk of doing you harm. Find another practitioner; you do not need nor require his permission to do so.
Well I guess what I'm try to get at is I don't really want to give up the game I love just because my faith says it's "evil" because I don't see anything "evil" about it.
Honestly it was in a Church youth group where I was first introduced to D&D in the early 80s. There were some who thought the game wasn't good and work of the devil but then these people thought everything was work of the devil. They were against comics, books, movies, TV, music and pretty everything.
Usually once people understand the game they understand that it is just a game of story telling. The stories told are influenced by the players and the players bring their own beliefs to the game. I've seen very Christian themed games of AD&D back in the 80s.
I used to game with a friend who was Bi-Polar back then too. He found the the game actually helped him. Not sure why that would be. He never explained why but games did seemed to help him.
Honestly it was in a Church youth group where I was first introduced to D&D in the early 80s.
::Fist bump::
Well, it wasn't where I was introduced, but it was where I actually got to sit down with experienced players and be part of a regular group with a schedule.
IMO your therapist should tell you if someone with bipolar disorder can play those games and let the religion aside.
It's actually not that simple.
Bipolar Disorder has different Types.
There's Type I, which most people think of and is typified by full Manic episodes, that can go to the extremes and include delusions.
There's Type II, which never become fully manic, cresting instead at "Hypo-Mania".
And then there's Cyclothymia, which is a milder form of Type II.
Type II and Cyclothymia is actually very difficult to diagnose (the average being 10 years after treatment for one or more symptoms before a proper diagnosis is made) because they aren't as extreme.
But even within that spectrum each person can experience Mania or Hypomania in a different way. So someone may become overly attached to things and find that a loss of a character sends them into a depressive state, while another can get worked up by one to many natural 20's. These are extremes, but that's the type of thing that the person needs to be aware of and watchful for. It doesn't mean that they can't play, but just that they need to keep an eye on their moods and reactions, just as they would at anything else.
The fact is that the highs and lows that could be issues with any RPG can be found in just about any sort of sporting event. Someone at the extreme's I mentioned above could have the same issues when their sport's team loses or their favorite player is having a fantastic night. While RPGs encourage that close connection more than sports usually do, any sort of activity could have that response.
But with proper handling Bipolarity shouldn't be an issue for something like gaming, any more than it could be for sports. Awareness, therapy, and proper medication means that you can't simply blanket the activity as inappropriate for people with the disorder.
There are people who, as individuals, have extreme reactions that mean they shouldn't play, but that's something for the therapist to discuss with the patient. If Mageye's therapist felt there was a medical reason for him not to play, that is what he should have discussed, not a faith based one.
Not that "good Christians don't play this" is much of a discussion...
To Mageye, you need to talk with your therapist about his comments. He is supposed to give you tools to deal with your Bipolarity and a non-judgmental place to discuss any issues. He is not there to make faith based black and white calls on something that was not causing you stress. If he felt that it was an issue, he should have asked you to speak to your pastor about gaming. That he didn't shows that what he said is nothing more than a personal opinion. You need someone you feel comfortable with and helps you, not someone who wants you to live by their interpretation of your faith.
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veering off-topic reply to theneofish
Same here in the UK - my wife is a therapist (and yes, you do need qualifications, and membership of an accrediting body, such as the BACP - anything else makes you a charlatan)...
Sorry if I have offend you, I'm sure your wife is one of many excellent therapists that supports and assists people in the UK however I learnt that you can be a therapist without meaningful qualifications from annoyed highly-qualified therapists, including someone who is well-qualified as both a psychologist and psychotherapist and finds it intensely frustrating that the profession is not as well policed as others in the same field.
It is an honourable profession and it does the qualified a disservice that charlatans cannot be struck-off in the way that members of other caring professions can be.[/ooc]
My mom's church once had a pair of guest speakers come to talk about temptation. Among the things they talked about were things that could tempt people to sin. Eventually the dialogue went this way, alternating between speakers.
"Even some games can tempt you."
"Games? What kind of games?"
"Roleplaying games, like Dungeons & Dragons."And they continued this discussion for about 30 seconds, at which point my mom had to interrupt.
"I'm sorry, but my son grew up playing those games, and now he's a writer for those games. He was a good kid. He didn't do drugs, he didn't get anyone pregnant, and he wasn't out all hours of the night drinking or vandalizing things. Even if he was out late, I knew he was out at a friend's house, playing D&D and not hurting anyone. These games are not harmful at all."
The speakers were floored. They had been repeating this spiel because it was what they were taught. Confronted with evidence to the contrary... they listened. Everyone spent several minutes talking about RPGs and my mom gave a lot of positive information about them. Everyone left with a much better idea of what RPGs are about, and that they don't lead to temptation or evil.
(In other words, my mom is awesome. Heck, she even played D&D with my sister Keri a couple of times when Keri was learning how to play.)
So... your therapist is wrong. He could merely be misinformed, or he could be a blockhead about this. Gaming isn't a pathway to Hell. Now, if you have issues dealing with telling the difference between fantasy and reality, gaming may not be for you, but it shouldn't be an issue for bipolars.
Thanks Sean means a lot to me to have you comment on this post. I have taken what people have said into consideration and have come to the conclusion that in no way has the game become more than just that just a game it does not make me want to worship the devil or hang myself or any of the other negative things that are associated with D&D I find the game to be relaxing and a way to socialize with friends. I will be talking with both the therapist on his statement and ask also why he's letting his personal faith get into my actual treatment.
Great story, Sean. I'm still trying to get my head around SKR as a good kid, but I guess I'll have to accept that, since it's your mom speaking. On the other hand, mom's tend to love their kids a lot...
I'm not too late, am I?
Aren't you supposed to be a Mon Calamari rather than a troll?
Many people have attacked the therapist for bringing up religion. However, for many Christians, having a believing therapist who will include spiritual health as part of your discussions is a great benefit. It really depends on the established relationship between the therapist and the patient -- which the OP has not explained.
Depending on how you are playing it and who you are playing it with, RPGs can be spiritually damaging. Many groups of non-Christian gamers are happy moving the game into very morally questionable grounds, and for someone struggling to get healthy the game may not be a positive outlet.
The imagination is a powerful thing (which is one of the reasons so many of us enjoy our time spent in these games). Exercising caution is wise.
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Great story, Sean. I'm still trying to get my head around SKR as a good kid, but I guess I'll have to accept that, since it's your mom speaking. On the other hand, mom's tend to love their kids a lot...
Pfft, my mom will tell you I was a good kid too and I have every intention of letting her continue that belief for as long as possible.
I mean, I never killed anyone or anything, but I was no saint.
On topic though, we sat down at some point after some of her friends expressed concern with my D&D hobby. Had a long talk about what the game was and wasn't. After which, she also would tell naysayers to take a leap. Mom's are awesome like that. :D
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One more thought about not knowing enough to advice the OP to change his therapist:
First: Do not end therapy, nobody avised you to and hopefully nobody will. Yet, I think it would be better for you, to at least look for another therapist you can relate to (while continuing therapy)
Why?
1. He has no business advising you to stop a hobby you enjoy based on his religious beliefs. If he adviced you to stop playing because he thought it could be detrimental to your condition or be interfering with his therapy, that would be different, but as far as I understood, that was not the point.
2. If your bipolar disorder lets you suffer from depressive moods, it is not only pretty dense to tell you "you should stop playing that game you enjoy, playing it furthers the way of the devil and by having played it, you did too" (I know that weren't his exact words, but it is not hard to read that between the lines) it might even endanger you. (Telling someone prone to depressive moods that he has been endangering his soul and furthering the work of evil is dangerous, regardless of how stupid the argument is.)
There's been some good and not so good advice in this thread, in my opinion. I felt like I should leave my two cents worth.
As a devout Christian myself (and recently called deacon in my church) I find no conflict between my faith and playing Pathfindr/D&D. I don't point to my own faith to claim any type of religious authority in what I say, just to provide context for my response. I will share with you my own views on the subject, in the hope that they might prove useful to you.
As a long-time gamer, I lived through the dark period in the late 70s and early 80s when D&D was a frequent target of certain evangelical Christian preachers. Those same preachers have largely moved on to culturally "hotter" topics like videogames or rap music, but there are still many in the Christian community who remember their rants against D&D. In my opinion much of their objection was based on either misconceptions about the game that they didn't bother to correct, or just a desire to generate some sensationalist publicity for themselves.
All that said, there are some issues that, as a Christian I had to think about with regard to playing the game:
1) The presence of other gods in the game. Chrisitianity is premised on the belief that there is only one God and that salvation is reached through faith. The game involves an entire pantheon of varied "gods" who are active in the world, and some characters have "faith" in these "gods" as a major part of their identity. I struggled with this a bit, and created some monotheistic game worlds that had big G God in them, but found that to be worse. In my mind it was better to just acknowledge that this is all just a fantasy game that has absolutely nothing to do with reality, and as such has no conflict with beliefs in the real world.
2) Magic. The Bible has some pretty clear and unequivocal condemnations of magic and those who practice it. Again, my logic is that this is all make-believe. The magic portrayed in the game has nothing to do with any magic that may or may not exist in the real world. The Bible's strictures apply to real attempts to practice witchcraft and magic, not playing make-believe.
3) The presence of devils and demons. In my mind, it is a little unfortunate that many of the devils that have been part of the game forever have been drawn to some extent from Christian tradition (although not from the Bible), as it tends to confuse reality and fantasy. That said, I have no problem with them in the game, and find the objection to them a bit puzzling, as they are almost always depicted as the adversaries of the PCs. A good Christian should be all about opposing demonic forces. In fact, there are some "Christian" games that are all about just that.
4) Extreme violence in the game. Let's face it, the game is really, really violent. Violent and/or gruesome death for somebody/something is a part of just about every session. Some denominations of Christianity (including the one I am currently a part of, although I myself am not a pacifist) reject violence. For the violence alone the game is PG-rated, in my opinion, and probably not appropriate for young children. Again, however, this is fantasy, and professional opinions vary as to whether excessive violence in games or roleplaying has any effect on real life behavior.
5) Rather questionable situational ethics. A lot of the game basically consists of killing monsters/bad guys and taking their stuff. You can put all kind of justifications on it, but it frequently boils down to that. Actions taken routinely in the game would probably land you in jail in just about any civilization in the world. This is another reason I think the game is not appropriate for young children, who may have more trouble separating fantasy from reality and whose ethical views are just forming. However, I see no Christian objection to this for anyone fully capable of separating fantasy and reality. My Christianity is one reason I am uncomfortable playing evil characters (although I pass no judgment on those who do) or running games for evil parties, and I think that is something Christians should think about when they play.
With regard to your therapy, from my experience as a member of a family that has struggled with the bipolar disorder of various members for years, I encourage you to continue therapy as an important part of your treatment. That does not mean, however, that you need to stick with this particular therapist. Therapists are human beings, and some are better or worse than others. Some therapists are also just not good matches for some patients. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking a second professional opinion or a different therapist if the one you have isn't a good fit. It sounds like you may have selected your therapist because of his Christianity, although I could be wrong, and that is why he feels it appropriate to include discussions of faith in your therapy. I support the idea of therapists who will consider faith in their therapy, as it is an important part of who a person is, but there are as many different kinds of Christian therapists as there are different types of Christians. Shouldn't be too hard to find one with somewhat more educated views on Pathfinder/D&D.
Bottom line is that Pathfinder/D&D isn't for everyone. I have found no conflict between playing and my own faith. If I did, I would quit. However, the experience of others may vary, and you need to pray and look within yourself and your own relationship with God to find the right answer for you. Is it drawing you closer to God or driving you away, or does it have no effect? That is the real question.
In terms of mental illness, I would certainly say that anyone who has any trouble separating fantasy and reality should not be playing. This is not, however, a classic symptom of bipolar disorder. I think it is a worthwhile subject of discussion with your health care professionals, though, and suggest you consider their collective advice. I would seek more than one opinion, however.
Sorry for rambling on so long, but this is a subject, both with respect to Christianity and gaming and bipolar disorder and gaming, that touches close to my heart.
I wish you health and happiness whatever you decide. God bless.
You do not have to be a "professional" to be a "therapist." This "therapist" is clearly associated with the Assemblies of God and does not run his own practice - your psychologist does not normally have your preacher's phone number. I would recommend some one with a clear and valid disorder to see a licensed professional. Probably a psychiatrist because I am pretty sure bipolar is usually treated with drugs.Reread the OP's post very carefully. There is no stated connection between his therapist and his church, other than his lack of proper pargraph use in his postage.
And as I've said before, there ARE people that shouldn't be playing this game and not all of them are full blown whackos. Many of them are otherwise sound people that have individual circumstances which make avoiding roleplaying games a good call.
Which is why it's a bad idea for any of us to make armchair calls on a situation like this where we don't know nearly enough details to make a good call.
You're right. I skimmed a sentence. Honestly though, that just makes it worse. He should still find a new licensed professional. Everyone pointing out that making that statement is a gross breach of ethics is entirely correct.
Many people have attacked the therapist for bringing up religion. However, for many Christians, having a believing therapist who will include spiritual health as part of your discussions is a great benefit. It really depends on the established relationship between the therapist and the patient -- which the OP has not explained.
While there is more need for information, as bdk86 and others note, it is illegal and unethical for licensed therapists to bring their personal faith into their work and bias their advice to their clients. That's not "attacking", that's pointing out a very real and legitimate concern.
It is ONE thing to support a patient's own faith, it is ANOTHER to stage your own religious beliefs as "therapeutic advice."
As a Quaker, I would want a therapist who supports my being part of a religious community. I would not want my therapist to tell me what is wrong or right for me as a Quaker to do--that's not his or her job.
I do disagree with the people just saying, "Leave your therapist!" But there are more than enough people advising simply that Mageye ask the therapist for more information, which it looks like he/she will do.
While there is more need for information, as bdk86 and others note, it is illegal and unethical for licensed therapists to bring their personal faith into their work and bias their advice to their clients.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it's neither illegal nor unethical to do that. Do you know something about therapist's licensing regulations and professional ethics that I don't?
Again, many Christians (myself included) specifically seek out therapists who share our faith and will address matters of faith in our sessions. I think they would be pretty surprised to learn that their behavior is illegal and unethical.|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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1) The presence of other gods in the game. .. I struggled with this a bit, and created some monotheistic game worlds that had big G God in them, but found that to be worse.
My experience, too. As soon as I started "role-playing Jehova", it felt blasphemous.
4) Extreme violence in the game. Let's face it, the game is really, really violent.
5) Rather questionable situational ethics. A lot of the game basically consists of killing monsters/bad guys and taking their stuff.
This is where I think the religious concerns about D&D had a solid point. It's a well-trod truism that pretending to do something over and over makes it easier to ideate doing so in real life. (Indeed, Genesius was a pagan actor in the Roman theatre, portraying Christians in ribald skits to mock them, until he was reciting the ridiculous creeds they espoused and realized that they touches his soul; he converted on the spot - he was made the patron saint of actors.) In a lot of published D&D adventures, the PCs simply kill anyone who disagrees with them.
My solution was to write adventures where straight-forward mayhem was the wrong response.
While there is more need for information, as bdk86 and others note, it is illegal and unethical for licensed therapists to bring their personal faith into their work and bias their advice to their clients.Actually, I'm pretty sure it's neither illegal nor unethical to do that. Do you know something about therapist's licensing regulations and professional ethics that I don't?
Again, many Christians (myself included) specifically seek out therapists who share our faith and will address matters of faith in our sessions. I think they would be pretty surprised to learn that their behavior is illegal and unethical.
Yes, I am pretty sure it is at the very least unethical for therapists, or at least licensed ones, to attempt to assert faith-based guidelines upon you. That's what religious leaders are for.
Troubled Christian: If I play this game with my friends, are we all going to be doomed to everlasting torment in hell?
Pastor: No comment.
This seems ridiculous to me. What good is a pastor if he can't give you advice on being a good Christian and staying clear of eternal damnation?
I would get a new pastor (one who is actually willing to help you) and a new therapist (one who knows his professional boundaries).
Maintianing treatment of a disorder should be a primary concern. However part of that involves having a therapist you trust to tell them things that really trouble you. If you don't have that level of trust you will start holding things back and the treatment won't be nearly as affective. The OP sounds as though the therapist has shaken any trust that there was to begin with so I recommend looking into state based agencies and switching over to.
For instance, if I was seeing a therapist and told him that I was thinking about moving in with my girlfriend. If the therapist tells me I shouldn't because it's morally wrong this would at least shake my trust in him and also runs the risk of triggering negative thought processes. On the other hand, if the therapist tells me that he doesn't think I'm ready yet until, for example, we get control of my depression this is advising my that he thinks my disorder is still interferring with my life and we need to work on it so I can achieve my goal. I would be more willing to listen to this advice, even though I might not like hearing it, as it provides steps for me to achieve my desired goal rather then condemning it outright.
yikes. Sounds like therapist overstepped their boundaries. Well, wait a moment- is your therapist practicing along with having a degree in Theology? I know my boss does something like that on the weekends, and merges a bit of religion in his outreach. If that's what your therapist is doing, then they did not mess up. If they're doing straight therapy, then they crossed the line.
But no, I'm christian(although it's been a while since I've kept the "Honor the Sabbath" commandment), and I have no problem with Pathfinder. At least two other people at my table are serious christians and have no problem with it at all.
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While there is more need for information, as bdk86 and others note, it is illegal and unethical for licensed therapists to bring their personal faith into their work and bias their advice to their clients.Actually, I'm pretty sure it's neither illegal nor unethical to do that. Do you know something about therapist's licensing regulations and professional ethics that I don't?
Again, many Christians (myself included) specifically seek out therapists who share our faith and will address matters of faith in our sessions. I think they would be pretty surprised to learn that their behavior is illegal and unethical.
Some clarifications:
1) I at no point said that what was stated by the therapist is illegal. What was being done is unethical and if the therapist does follow a code of ethics or have a license requiring said code, they are not legally able to provide psychotherapy. It is, however, unethical to impose beliefs and/or biases in practice.
A breach of ethical conduct can be grounds for disciplinary action and consistent or gross breaches (ie Sleeping with your client) can cost you your license permanently. It is only illegal in the sense that you may not get to keep practicing legally if you are making a habit of this or cause someone psychological harm. My fear here is that this person is either in breach of their code of ethics or worse not actually licensed for psychotherapy. Both the license and the code are intended to protect individuals who are, as clients, psychologically vulnerable as part of the therapeutic process.
2) You can bring your faith to the table as a mental health practitioner without crossing any lines and many theoretical models support it. Spirituality can be a strength and drawing upon a client's spirituality is considered an asset in psychotherapy. As you've said Avalon, some people feel more comfortable having a therapist who shares their belief system on some level and can discuss it. It's the same as wanting a female therapist because you are female, a Latino one because you are Latino, etc. Nothing wrong with that.
The issue I have is not that the therapist is bringing their faith to the table. My issue is that the therapist is making judgments of his client based on this faith/belief system, which is the very definition of bias. Allowing bias to influence practice is, as stated above, unethical and unprofessional. A therapist can absolutely discuss faith with a client. A therapist cannot, however, tell a client that a part of their life is not right with God or evil and therefore must be changed when there is no sound research evidence for this assertion beyond that it is what the therapist's belief system dictates.
When it comes to playing RPGs I ask myself, "What would Jesus do?"
And then I realize, he'd make every save.
I think we should all be a little careful condemning someone based on a private conversation that may or may not be correctly being described. I don't mean to imply the OPer is being deceptive, but often times we interpret statements in ways that they are not exactly meant.
It may have been that the therapist may have said something like, "You've talked about your religion being important to you. You should know that some religious groups don't think people should be playing games like this because they believe it leads to devil. You might want to talk to your minister and see if it is the right choice for you." Something like that could be interpreted as the therapist pushing a position, when they might not have actually be doing so.
As with issues within gaming groups, often times discussion is a better solution than just jumping to conclusions.
Now for the OPer's own benefit here are a couple of viewpoints from conservative sources.
Although Dungeons & Dragons does not present itself as either pro-Christian or anti-Christian, the game features many elements which can be considered to agree with or go against the teachings of Christ. The game has drawn criticism for allowing players to undertake the roleplaying of un-Christian activities: the rules allow a player to have their character perform evil acts, including the summoning or worshiping of demons and devils. Certain fundamentalists disagree with the very format of the game in that player characters can pretend to cast imaginary spells while playing the game.
Some feel that the primary action of the game involves the fictional slaying of monsters and the fictional accumulation of wealth, some Christians feel that this goes against the teachings of Christ regarding pacifism (Matthew 5:38-42) and the accumulation of wealth (Matthew 19:24). Others see these actions as heroic endeavors and wealth is a byproduct of doing good things. Either way, the game and it's choices are a matter of free will.
Former United Methodist Church minister James Wyatt wrote an essay comparing the freedom of a Dungeons & Dragons player to choose his own actions, to the Christian concept of Free Will. As in real life, a player may, when presented with a moral choice, decide for himself whether to do good or evil. If the player was not able to do evil, he would be forced to do good, removing his freedom. Similarly, God allows human beings to choose between good and evil in real life, and people must accept the consequences of their choice. The supplements that deal specifically with demons and devils make it quite clear that the afterlife for characters who are condemned to the Abyss or the Nine Heels is in no way pleasant, and may even be short.
Tracy Hickman, one of the main authors of the Dungeons & Dragons Dragonlance book series, and a Christian with conservative politics and theology, has written a number of articles defending and discussing D&D from a Christian perspective. [19] Others within the Dungeons & Dragons community responded by writing other defenses from rationalist perspectives or other perspectives or by writing parodies such as "Chess: The Subtle Sin: Should Christians play chess?". Some argue that in response to the perceived Christian persecution of the Dungeons & Dragons, darker themed, deliberately counter-cultural games appeared in reaction such as Call of Cthulhu which is based on the horror writing of H.P. Lovecraft and set in the Cthulhu Mythos[19], or Vampire: the Masquerade, where players act the roles of undead vampires.
Possible Areas of Concern for Christians
D&D is a "game of pretend" whereby players pretend to take certain actions and the DM adjudicates the results of those actions. By its very nature, this leaves players open to experiment with various moral quandaries and social dilemmas. This is a valuable tool for players to learn the implications and results of playing both good and evil characters. However, the possibility exists that such an experience may not be beneficial or appropriate for everyone--in particular, persons who already have difficulty separating fantasy with reality might be able to be helped by the game, but it could also make things worse. Due to the nature of roleplaying games, a great deal depends upon the individual group in question; a given game of Dungeons and Dragons might be benign from a Christian standpoint, or it might involve activities and ideas that a Christian would find profoundly distasteful.
What, for example, is the percentage of murderers among veterans compared to the percentage of murderers in the population at large -- or, more germane, in the general population of young males, inasmuch as violent crime is committed almost exclusively by young men?
Any group composed primarily of young men will contain a seemingly mammoth number of murderers.
Consider the harmless fantasy game, Dungeons and Dragons -- which happens to be played almost exclusively by young males. When murders were committed in the '80s by (1) young men, who were (2) Dungeons and Dragons enthusiasts, some people concluded that factor (2), rather than factor (1), led to murderous tendencies.
Troubled Christian: If I play this game with my friends, are we all going to be doomed to everlasting torment in hell?
Pastor: No comment.
This seems ridiculous to me. What good is a pastor if he can't give you advice on being a good Christian and staying clear of eternal damnation?
I would get a new pastor (one who is actually willing to help you) and a new therapist (one who knows his professional boundaries).
Umm... Christians playing d&d isn't an issue of salvation. The bible tells us if you truly are a Christian and fall into sin, that doesn't "nullify the agreement." Sin just isn't healthy. ...and playing d&d isn't a sin, so I think the main thing is explaining to his therapist/pastor or whomever why d&d isn't a sin.
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I think we should all be a little careful condemning someone based on a private conversation that may or may not be correctly being described. I don't mean to imply the OPer is being deceptive, but often times we interpret statements in ways that they are not exactly meant.
It may have been that the therapist may have said something like, "You've talked about your religion being important to you. You should know that some religious groups don't think people should be playing games like this because they believe it leads to devil. You might want to talk to your minister and see if it is the right choice for you." Something like that could be interpreted as the therapist pushing a position, when they might not have actually be doing so.
An excellent point, actually; seeking clarification from the therapist is something that would be a good idea before anything else.
Some clarifications:
1) I at no point said that what was stated by the therapist is illegal. What was being done is unethical and if the therapist does follow a code of ethics or have a license requiring said code, they are not legally able to provide psychotherapy. It is, however, unethical to impose beliefs and/or biases in practice.A breach of ethical conduct can be grounds for disciplinary action and consistent or gross breaches (ie Sleeping with your client) can cost you your license permanently. It is only illegal in the sense that you may not get to keep practicing legally if you are making a habit of this or cause someone psychological harm. My fear here is that this person is either in breach of their code of ethics or worse not actually licensed for psychotherapy. Both the license and the code are intended to protect individuals who are, as clients, psychologically vulnerable as part of the therapeutic process.
2) You can bring your faith to the table as a mental health practitioner without crossing any lines and many theoretical models support it. Spirituality can be a strength and drawing upon a client's spirituality is considered an asset in psychotherapy. As you've said Avalon, some people feel more comfortable having a therapist who shares their belief system on some level and can discuss it. It's the same as wanting a female therapist because you are female, a Latino one because you are Latino, etc. Nothing wrong with that.
The issue I have is not that the therapist is bringing their faith to the table. My issue is that the therapist is making judgments of his client based on this faith/belief system, which is the very definition of bias. Allowing bias to influence practice is, as stated above, unethical and unprofessional. A therapist can absolutely discuss faith with a client. A therapist cannot, however, tell a client that a part of their life is not right with God or evil and therefore must be changed when there is no sound research evidence for this assertion beyond that it is what the therapist's belief system dictates.
I suppose it's best to avoid a religious debate in a d&d forum, but you make it sound like your faith is just another descriptor. If you actually take Christianity seriously, you have every reason to seek out Christian therapists and other Christian people whom might attend to your social and mental health.
Every religion believes that they are the right one. They believe that their religion is the ultimate authority on truth. With that as the basis, what religious person wouldn't make a point to seek advice from a person who knows the truth?
I think we should all be a little careful condemning someone based on a private conversation that may or may not be correctly being described. I don't mean to imply the OPer is being deceptive, but often times we interpret statements in ways that they are not exactly meant.
It may have been that the therapist may have said something like, "You've talked about your religion being important to you. You should know that some religious groups don't think people should be playing games like this because they believe it leads to devil. You might want to talk to your minister and see if it is the right choice for you." Something like that could be interpreted as the therapist pushing a position, when they might not have actually be doing so.
As with issues within gaming groups, often times discussion is a better solution than just jumping to conclusions.
Now for the OPer's own benefit here are a couple of viewpoints from conservative sources.
** spoiler omitted **...
I would just note that Conservative and Christian are not synonyms despite how much certain politicians would have you believe it. That said, I am rather impressed by the balance and rationality in both these quotes.
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Maybe these links will help the thread grapple with some of the questions about therapy, religion, & ethics:
American Psychological Association: Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct
American Counseling Association: Ethics & Professional Standards
National Association of Social Workers: Code of Ethics
The high-points:
* APA guidelines mention that it's unethical to discriminate based on religion and a whole bunch of other criteria such as race, gender, and sexual orientation or the harass/demean people based on those categories.
* Searching ACA brings up numerous articles promoting faith-based counseling (provided they adhere to the ethical guidelines, which are very similar to the APA's guidelines).
* The NASW guidelines are again similar to APA and ACA guidelines.
-Skeld
I would just note that Conservative and Christian are not synonyms despite how much certain politicians would have you believe it. That said, I am rather impressed by the balance and rationality in both these quotes.I think we should all be a little careful condemning someone based on a private conversation that may or may not be correctly being described. I don't mean to imply the OPer is being deceptive, but often times we interpret statements in ways that they are not exactly meant.
It may have been that the therapist may have said something like, "You've talked about your religion being important to you. You should know that some religious groups don't think people should be playing games like this because they believe it leads to devil. You might want to talk to your minister and see if it is the right choice for you." Something like that could be interpreted as the therapist pushing a position, when they might not have actually be doing so.
As with issues within gaming groups, often times discussion is a better solution than just jumping to conclusions.
Now for the OPer's own benefit here are a couple of viewpoints from conservative sources.
** spoiler omitted **...
While Christian and conservative indeed are not synonyms, I think they do go hand in hand. Christians SHOULD lean heavily toward the right wing. However, I know by experience that this isn't always the case. ...and no, a Christian that isn't a staunch conservative isn't damned to hell because of it. xD
Anyway, agreed, the comments were balanced and rational and a good example of Christianity and/or conservatism done right. Who knew? Always like Ann Coulter, but I never knew she had such insights on d&d. xP
I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
A therapist who states what you should do "as a Christian man" should be fired on the spot. The only exception to this is if you chose him based on the fact that he is a "faith based therapist" (i.e. that is what you were looking for). I am concerned that this guy is volunteering HIS opinions, rather than guiding YOUR thoughts/feelings.
I recommend that you work with both a psychologist who can provide pharmacological care, and a psychotherapist who can help you moderate your thoughts/moods. Anyone can claim to be a "therapist" or a "counselor". Make sure this guy is a board certified professional.
The above is based on my experience specifically with bi-polar disorder. I am not a clinician. I am also an atheist, so that may render my entire view point invalid to you. Don't go to your physician to fill a cavity, or your dentist for an apendectomy. By the same logic, go to your therapist for your mind and your pastor for your soul.
Good luck.
When it comes to playing RPGs I ask myself, "What would Jesus do?"
And then I realize, he'd make every save.
Once again you have left me beside myself in shock and humble awe.
I turn to myself and go "did you see what that long haired freak wrote this time?" and respond with "hey my hair was that long once, that is when we had hair." and finish with an, "oh yeah."
Christians SHOULD lean heavily toward the right wing.
I would vehemently disagree, and point out that Christ had absolutely nothing to do with the politics of his day, much to the disappointment of some of his followers. I see nothing in the Bible which would inform me about how to vote or believe politically, and consider it blasphemy for anyone to claim that Christians should support any particular political party or belief. I could say a lot more, but let's not go there as it would be a blatant threadjack and unproductive discussion for these boards.
Christians SHOULD lean heavily toward the right wing.I would vehemently disagree, and point out that Christ had absolutely nothing to do with the politics of his day, much to the disappointment of some of his followers. I see nothing in the Bible which would inform me about how to vote or believe politically, and consider it blasphemy for anyone to claim that Christians should support any particular political party or belief. I could say a lot more, but let's not go there as it would be a blatant threadjack and unproductive discussion for these boards.
I don't really mean conservative as in being overly political so much as a way of thinking.
Anyway, lets avoid the threadjack. ^^;
I can't help but chime in on this one. A few basics, I am a player of RPG's since the 80's. I am also an active member of our Christian Congregation and a member of the priesthood. Pathfinder and D&D are just games. You can make them good or bad depending upong the person you are.
You can make anything evil and of the devil if that is where your heart is. Otherwise, you can take a game like this and have a fun time with your children and friends. I have made a TON of good friends through RPGing over the years and most of them are sincere, good people. However, just like anything else you can get too wrapped up in the RPG experience and devote too much of your time and energy into our make believe world and lose your balance.
When you give more time to yourself and your imaginary world than you do in service to others, are you more selfish or Christian then? I think guns, sports, RPGs, MMORPGs, video games, gambling, even your job (sometimes) are all things people do for fun or use to relax and get away. But everyone of them has the potential to be abused and lead to destructive lifestyles. It's all in what you do with it and if you keep it in moderation.
Lastly, and maybe I'm a bit different than most of you, but I would NEVER take my RPG books out into the public/professional world to read up. I'm aware that many people have negative views on RPGs and I'm not out there to make a statement about them. I read them and play them in the relative privacy and security of my home.
I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
I do not know the specifics of your situation. But this much I can say: table top role playing games do not promote the work of the devil. I'm a christian myself and (like plenty of us on these boards) have seen many let ignorance cloud their judgement. It is really sad.
But at the end of the day, Pathfinder (and all other role playing games) are simply tools, in the same way a hammer is a tool. You can use that hammer to build a hammer or as a weapon to take someone's like. One is an evil act, the other is positive and constructive. In the same way all table top role playing games are tools. They can be used to spread God's love or they can be used to hurt someone. Unless you are hitting someone with the book itself, it is rather difficult to hurt someone with a role playing game (granted with the PFRPG core book being over 500 pages it can sting). Calling any role playing game a work of the devil is sheer ignorance, nothing more.
IMO and IMO only, a Therapist job is to help you, not to dictate your religious faith, IMO he stepped out of bounds as a therapist.
I must agree with this. Your therapist is there to help you work through your own issues, not to judge you. They are there to keep you from harming yourself and others. This one crossed the line. I recommend finding a new therapist.
When it comes to playing RPGs I ask myself, "What would Jesus do?"
And then I realize, he'd make every save.
Once again you have left me beside myself in shock and humble awe.
I turn to myself and go "did you see what that long haired freak wrote this time?" and respond with "hey my hair was that long once, that is when we had hair." and finish with an, "oh yeah."
Those longhair freaky people. ;) Gomme wanting to listen to Signs now.
My mom's church once had a pair of guest speakers come to talk about temptation. Among the things they talked about were things that could tempt people to sin. Eventually the dialogue went this way, alternating between speakers.
"Even some games can tempt you."
"Games? What kind of games?"
"Roleplaying games, like Dungeons & Dragons."And they continued this discussion for about 30 seconds, at which point my mom had to interrupt.
"I'm sorry, but my son grew up playing those games, and now he's a writer for those games. He was a good kid. He didn't do drugs, he didn't get anyone pregnant, and he wasn't out all hours of the night drinking or vandalizing things. Even if he was out late, I knew he was out at a friend's house, playing D&D and not hurting anyone. These games are not harmful at all."
The speakers were floored. They had been repeating this spiel because it was what they were taught. Confronted with evidence to the contrary... they listened. Everyone spent several minutes talking about RPGs and my mom gave a lot of positive information about them. Everyone left with a much better idea of what RPGs are about, and that they don't lead to temptation or evil.
(In other words, my mom is awesome. Heck, she even played D&D with my sister Keri a couple of times when Keri was learning how to play.)
So... your therapist is wrong. He could merely be misinformed, or he could be a blockhead about this. Gaming isn't a pathway to Hell. Now, if you have issues dealing with telling the difference between fantasy and reality, gaming may not be for you, but it shouldn't be an issue for bipolars.
Your mom rocks, sean! Applause for her.
HANG ON PEOPLE!!!!!!
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To the OP: TALK TO YOUR THERAPIST! Find out if there is a SOLID reason based on your individual case of bi-polar disorder that you should not play. If your individual case merits putting Pathfinder on the shelf for the time being then you should do so.
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In the OP, he SPECIFICALLY SAID the therapist said he shouldn't play if he was a good christian. The therapist was not linking it to his disorder or treatment of his disorder. He was stepping out of his professional bounds and into the area of his own personal interpretation of what does and does not constitute good christian behavior.
I agree that dropping the therapist should not be done quickly if the OP is happy with him and achevieving results. I further agree that the OP should have a converstaion with this therapist. However, I would not have that converstaion be about the therapist's religious values and asking him to explain further what he meant by his comment. Rather, the therapist needs to have a boundary set for him that ministering to his patients is not part of standard treatment for mental health disorders.
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Ann Coulter said something reasonable, and defended my hobby at the same time. I feel dirty.
OP: You should never flat out switch therapy just because a care provider gives advice you don't like. You should always get a second opinion if a care provider says something you don't like. Whether it's a recommendation that you cease a possibly harmful (for you) activity, take a powerful prescription drug, or undergo surgery, always be as informed yourself as reasonably possible.
Ann Coulter said something reasonable, and defended my hobby at the same time. I feel dirty.
I don't feel dirty as much as I wonder if I entered the twilight zone.
I see a therapist for bipolar disorder and also am part of a assemblies of god church. I had a visit with my therapist today. Well I decided since I had quite a bit of a wait before my appointment to read my Pathfinder core rulebook in the waiting room since I wanted to refresh myself on the rules. Well my therapist ask if he could look at the book and I said sure he then went on to tell me that being a christian man that I shouldn't play games like pathfinder that they promote the work of the devil. I later after the appointment was thinking about this when I got a phone call from the pastor of the church I go to about something there putting on anyway I asked the Pastor about his thoughts on D&D and he said he had no comments on that subject. So I guess I'm wondering whats so bad about the game that makes these men say I shouldn't play it?
Like almost everyone else, I can only comment on what has been shared here, but it seems to me that while there may be a case for roleplaying eroding the line between fantasy and reality, to bring "Devils" into the discussion is both unprofessional and possibly dangerous.
Therapy should be a mental health practice, one that like most health services should be rigorously scientific and held to the highest ethical standards. To bring in one's own religious beliefs and more importantly, to frame the discussion in those terms is going seriously off the reservation. That said, am I right in thinking that your therapist is part of your Church? If so, that opens a whole different set of issues and you may need to consider going to a Psychiatrist that doesn't have a religious axe to grind. While the comfort of faith and a Church can be invaluable for those with bipolar disorder, a parallel course of therapy at the same time could help delineate what is spiritual support, and what is mental medicine.
Ann Coulter said something reasonable, and defended my hobby at the same time. I feel dirty.I don't feel dirty as much as I wonder if I entered the twilight zone.
"Anne Coulter" and "reasonable" in the same sentence will do that.
Ugh...And people wonder why I have issues with religion. This thread contains a lot of stuff that makes me pretty damned angry, so I think will leave it there.
I read some posts here, and some seemed a little biased towards RPG's (no wonder, look where we are ^^), I don't claim not to be biased.
For your therapist, well perhaps he didn't answer your question about religion, but he knows something about your psyche, you are not aware of. So ask him about the reasons perhaps. People can get too into character, or have a bad time because of other players, and can't handle it. (I've once experienced a player with anger management problems, not cool)
Now for the question itself, if RPG's mess with your religion. In general, they shouldn't. But you seem to be a little more strict about christianity than most, no offense. So I would talk with your fellow players and DM about it.
I mean playing in a group of blackguards that torture little kittens, might not be the right game for you. Same for plots that involve plots that turn your believes upside down. (I like to make such stories)
So if your DM and players are all christians (or "good innocent" people in general), and you play some good-ish characters helping the commoners (perhaps stealing from the rich), I think that it's a very good game, and keep playing RPG's.
Another problem that might come up is that your character isn't christian, but likely believes in a god different from yours. However, I think this is no different than accepting other people who don't believe in god. Your character isn't you. You could ask that question to your pastor/priest. But I very much doubt that it is a sin to play someone who doesn't believe in god (if everyone at the table knows, that you are a christian). Else actors would have a very hard time with their believe.
I hope I could help you, altough I am not christian. But as your priest didn't say no, I guess that means a yes, you can play. I mean it is his job to help you, not commit a sin, thus not answering means he didn't intend to prevent you from playing, thus it is no sin.
I wish you can do what is right for you.
various said: "Ann Coulter said something reasonable"
Oooo, Feel the fear! Feel the hate! Read her columns, sarcasm is just another of ther reasons to adore her.