Now I'm not saying that they are overpowered, but some of the pit spells seem stronger then other spells of the same level. For instance create pit seems almost like a save/ or be removed from combat spells at low level. I am currently DMing Kingmaker right now, and the party sorcerer seems to like this spell a lot, and uses it disable enemies from a distance and as a form of battlefield control. Now my problem isn't the spell, it's just the level of the spell and how much it hurts npcs/monsters that don't fly or have a form of flight. He constantly uses it to remove threats from the board and as a DM I have roll unnaturally high for the spell not to have an effect. With a DC climb of 25, it is very difficult for the enemies to enter the battle again.
Am I missing something or is this very powerful for a level 2 spell?
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When the caster gets it at 3rd level it's 10' deep, does 1d6 damage and potentially knocks an enemy or three out of combat for 4 rounds. It also acts as a nice area denial effect.
Compare this to sleep or color spray at 1st-2nd level, which is a save or (probably) die for 4HD worth of enemies at that level but doesn't scale well. This spell is similar, it's powerful when it's level appropriate but once you get to 5th level or so creatures are most likely going to either make the reflex save or be able to escape in a round or two.
It is definitely NICE and on the higher side of the power curve. It's comparable it to glitterdust or web.
just give your monsters a climb speed and then they don't have to make the DC ;)
just give your monsters a climb speed and then they don't have to make the DC ;)Climb speed doesnt make you immune to the dc, it just gives you a racial +8 and the ability to take 10 on the check.
long as they have +7 to climb (not that hard) from skill ranks and strength bonus then you've got +15 climb take 10 and your monster don't need to make the DC25 check to escape.
I suspect the top poster isn't going to refit all the bandits in Kingmaker with climb speeds so it's not really relevant.
probably not although he could very easily get bandits to start tieing a rope between 2 bandits so if one get spell'd into a hole he's got a rope he can climb out on.
its not unthinkable that if bandits wer getting owned time and again by pit spell they'd try come up with a way around it.
I would tell the OP to be thankful his sorcerer isn't Fey bloodlined and turning his NPC's on themselves. :)
its not unthinkable that if bandits wer getting owned time and again by pit spell they'd try come up with a way around it.
That's assuming any of them are ever left alive to spread the warning. Few adventurers worth their salt would be so careless. >=]
Don't forget the +5 bonus to climb checks if you're standing in a corner, or the +10 bonus to climb checks if you can touch opposing walls.
Don't forget the +5 bonus to climb checks if you're standing in a corner, or the +10 bonus to climb checks if you can touch opposing walls.
Cool I didn't know that.
The reason for the post was that I was wondering if anyone had similar problems?
It's certainly very useful against some creatures (e.g. medium-sized creatures in heavy armor), but I find that as time goes on you encounter more flying creatures, or Huge-sized creatures, or what have you. It's certainly a decent spell, but I don't know that it's necessarily any better than Web or Glitterdust.
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I suspect the top poster isn't going to refit all the bandits in Kingmaker with climb speeds so it's not really relevant.probably not although he could very easily get bandits to start tieing a rope between 2 bandits so if one get spell'd into a hole he's got a rope he can climb out on.
its not unthinkable that if bandits wer getting owned time and again by pit spell they'd try come up with a way around it.
You know word has gotten out when every bandit group you encounter has at least one ladder bearer in the group...
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The sorc in my game just picked up Acid Pit.
Tried it out vs some Red Mantis Assassins... they already had spider climb cast on themselves.
He ended up with his follower and another PC falling into the pit. He almost killed his own follower. Too funny.
This pit was 50' deep.
I think it's a fine spell. It goes away in a few rounds. Yes, it can be used intelligently for many purposes.
You know word has gotten out when every bandit group you encounter has at least one ladder bearer in the group...I suspect the top poster isn't going to refit all the bandits in Kingmaker with climb speeds so it's not really relevant.probably not although he could very easily get bandits to start tieing a rope between 2 bandits so if one get spell'd into a hole he's got a rope he can climb out on.
its not unthinkable that if bandits wer getting owned time and again by pit spell they'd try come up with a way around it.
gnome bandit group with battleladders !
Don't take Acid Pit, unless you want the rest of the party be mad at you that you disolved the loot. ^^ The next one in the line, Hungry Pit, is much better and leaves the loot intact.
My only complaint about create pit: it's focus component isn't a giant lever you have to pull. :P
Simply mime pulling a giant lever using your character's staff while shouting "BOMBS AWAY!"
The wonderful thing about any winning tactic/spell combination/etc is that if it such a great idea, it only makes sense that other people (read npcs, monsters,etc) would come up with similiar approaches. Simply put, a good idea catches like wildfire.
Our main DM has used that logic for years and it keeps virtually everything from being "broken". If we come up with a great tactic/whatever, it usually isnt too long before our enemies are using similiar things against us. Lots of people groan and yell "FOUL!" sometimes, but its really hard to argue against other beings using the same types of ideas we do. (After all, we copy the dms tactics too from time to time) Its a wonderful way to keep game balance, though I can see if you are using preprinted adventures imost of the time,tit might be a little harder to justify.
Don't take Acid Pit, unless you want the rest of the party be mad at you that you disolved the loot. ^^ The next one in the line, Hungry Pit, is much better and leaves the loot intact.
Ah but If the sorcerer is of the non-earth elemental blood line that would not be a problem hehehe
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Don't forget the +5 bonus to climb checks if you're standing in a corner, or the +10 bonus to climb checks if you can touch opposing walls.
Funny thing...the spell doesn't allow that as it states a specific DC that must be made to escape. It's an extra dimensional space, spells break the rules of reality. Besdies which who says the spell creates a pit with corners anyways? And unless they are huge, they won't have bracing bonuses anyways.
They give the climb DC just as there is a climb DC for a smooth surface, rough surface, etc...
Also, the spell say it's a 10 x 10 pit. That implies corners.
I think it is a little over powered in some situations...
Last week, we were faced with a clay golem and a bebelith. I (a conjurer) cast Hungry Pit on the clay golem at the end of the round (I rolled a 1 for initiative). The DC is 23 (lvl5 spell, +7 INT, Spell Focus: Conjuration) and the golem fell in. I removed it from the combat for 10 rounds, kept it from fast-healing the damage the rest of the party dealt the first round (3 of them have adamantine weapons) and did a little more damage while it was down there (between 3 and 9 damage each round because it couldn't make the save for 1/2). The DM thought he would just have the golem climb out because it's so strong, but the climb DC is 35 because the walls are always moving.
That left the rest of the group to kill the bebelith in about 4 rounds, then surround the pit and ready an attack for the spell to end. The clay golem was killed as soon as the pit spell ended.
While it was great for the group, I feel like I cheated a little... I'm not saying I regret that since the clay golem has the cursed wound ability... plus, I got mine... The bebelith saw me as a threat and turned me to stone. I didn't get to participate in killing it, but the rogue used a scroll of stone to flesh after they killed the bebelith and I was able to cast grease as soon as the clay golem was visible so it was prone for it's defeat.
The pit spells are designed badly for one reason: they break the DC convention. All save DCs resulting from spells are supposed to be 10+spell level+casting stat (plus miscellaneous modifiers). The pit spells absolutely shatter that convention. Create pit has a DC of 25 for its climb check. In order for a caster to have a DC of 25 for a 2nd level spell, they'd have to have a 36 in their casting stat (or a 32 with Greater Spell Focus). Yet, a 3rd level character with a 12 for his casting stat still gets a DC 25 pit.
Change the DCs to match the convention and the spells are vastly better balanced, while still being quite useful.
The pit spells are designed badly for one reason: they break the DC convention. All save DCs resulting from spells are supposed to be 10+spell level+casting stat (plus miscellaneous modifiers). The pit spells absolutely shatter that convention. Create pit has a DC of 25 for its climb check. In order for a caster to have a DC of 25 for a 2nd level spell, they'd have to have a 36 in their casting stat (or a 32 with Greater Spell Focus). Yet, a 3rd level character with a 12 for his casting stat still gets a DC 25 pit.
Change the DCs to match the convention and the spells are vastly better balanced, while still being quite useful.
Well, to be fair, the climb DC is for a skill. And, yes, I know that few people take climb. ^^
You know who has a high climb? A were-squirrel.
Also a wizard with a squirrel as a familiar.
The pit spells are designed badly for one reason: they break the DC convention. All save DCs resulting from spells are supposed to be 10+spell level+casting stat (plus miscellaneous modifiers). The pit spells absolutely shatter that convention. Create pit has a DC of 25 for its climb check. In order for a caster to have a DC of 25 for a 2nd level spell, they'd have to have a 36 in their casting stat (or a 32 with Greater Spell Focus). Yet, a 3rd level character with a 12 for his casting stat still gets a DC 25 pit.
Change the DCs to match the convention and the spells are vastly better balanced, while still being quite useful.
The DC you are talking about isn't the initial DC which is 10+spell level+casting stat (plus miscellaneous modifiers). So, that guy with a 12 caster stat will have a hard time getting anything to fall into the pit (DC 13 Ref save to stay out of pit).
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This spell was used several times last nights game to GREAT effect. I allowed one player to put up the pit, and the party alchemist to just drop bomb after bomb on top of them with nothing they could do to escape in time. Everyone else picked up a ranged weapon and started mocking the soon dead creatures as they picked them off as they helplessly clawed at the walls.
The way to use these spells is to lay a wall of stone over it after someone falls in, then dismiss the effect.
At higher levels, lay a prismatic wall over it.
My players did the following.
Bought a large silk sheet, cast create pit over it, turned it over hiding in it, and used it to pass under a gate.
Rofl. That's awesome! XD
If the edge is a slope, so are all the corners.
They are rounded so it is only squarish.
"So how do they get line of effect to things at the bottom of the pit without chancing falling in?
-James"
Just stand at the edge and shoot down. Just like when I used to hunt fish with a bow out of a boat. And, no, I didn't brace against the side. It was a small boat.
"My players did the following.
Bought a large silk sheet, cast create pit over it, turned it over hiding in it, and used it to pass under a gate."
Who dragged the sheet under the gate?
"If the edge is a slope, so are all the corners.
They are rounded so it is only squarish."
Huh?
"So how do they get line of effect to things at the bottom of the pit without chancing falling in?
-James"
Just stand at the edge and shoot down. Just like when I used to hunt fish with a bow out of a boat. And, no, I didn't brace against the side. It was a small boat.
Create pit has a reflex save for anyone adjacent to the pit; if the save is failed, they fall in. You can't get line of effect to anything inside the pit unless you risk falling in (by standing adjacent and thus needing to make a reflex save).
Whilst we're on the topic, with these pit spells, since they're extradimensional spaces...what happens when a character with a bag of holding falls into one? What was the rule about extradimensional spaces within extra dimensional spaces? XD
Whilst we're on the topic, with these pit spells, since they're extradimensional spaces...what happens when a character with a bag of holding falls into one? What was the rule about extradimensional spaces within extra dimensional spaces? XD
Considering the hundreds of players losing their bags of holding in a rope trick, i am pretty shure that there is no problem here.
Whilst we're on the topic, with these pit spells, since they're extradimensional spaces...what happens when a character with a bag of holding falls into one? What was the rule about extradimensional spaces within extra dimensional spaces? XDConsidering the hundreds of players losing their bags of holding in a rope trick, i am pretty shure that there is no problem here.
The Bag of Holding becomes non-functional while in the pit and will work normally once he's out again.
"Create pit has a reflex save for anyone adjacent to the pit; if the save is failed, they fall in. You can't get line of effect to anything inside the pit unless you risk falling in (by standing adjacent and thus needing to make a reflex save)."
My apologies. I just reread about the sloped edges of the pit. You're right, standing next to the pit should require a reflex save at +2 or slide in. When I used it against the clay golem, I cast the spell directly under it, so I didn't notice in the description about the sloped edges.
As for the extra-dimensional space inside the other extra-dimensional space, I think this should require an official ruling from the "powers that be". I can see an arguement for a lot of different situations.
As for the extra-dimensional space inside the other extra-dimensional space, I think this should require an official ruling from the "powers that be". I can see an arguement for a lot of different situations.
For the record, there already is an official ruling. It's even in the rulebook somewhere, I believe. Anyway, officially, extra-dimensional spaces will not open inside other extra-dimensional spaces. If you're trapped in a create pit spell, your bag of holding is just a normal bag. There's one exception to this rule: bags of holding and (IIRC) portable holes react poorly to each other and open a rift to the Astral Plane (the specifics of the rift vary based on which is being put inside the other).
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Create pit has a reflex save for anyone adjacent to the pit; if the save is failed, they fall in. You can't get line of effect to anything inside the pit unless you risk falling in (by standing adjacent and thus needing to make a reflex save).
If you have a hole that is 10 feet deep and 10 feet wide, and has sloped edges going out 5 additional feet beyond that, it means anyone standing at the 6-10 foot mark only has to be taller than 5 feet to see the middle of the bottom of the pit.
Most PC's take up 2 vertical spaces and line of sight an effect are calculated off the space your eyes are in, not the square you are standing in.
Most PC's take up 2 vertical spaces
Incorrect. Most PCs are not Large. In fact, I'd guess that fewer than 1% of all PCs are Large.
Um, could the jump spell be used to exit the pit. Either that or spider climb. Alternatively, if not all the hostiles go down the pit there is always the option to have one let down a rope (tie one end to a tree and toss the other end down).
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Most PC's take up 2 vertical spacesIncorrect. Most PCs are not Large. In fact, I'd guess that fewer than 1% of all PCs are Large.
The squares are 5x5x5. We exist in a 3 dimensional world here, Idk about you but I don't play this like a top down adventure and neither should you. Especially since we are dealing with a spell that specifically works in 3 dimensions.
When was the last time you saw a human who was shorter than 5 feet tall? According to the vital statistics it is literally impossible to have an adult human male who isn't at LEAST 5 feet tall rolling two 1's on 2d10.
The only races that are on average shorter than 5 feet are dwarves, halflings and gnomes. Everyone else takes up two vertical spaces. Your vision is calculated from that top space.
In fact let me check my stack of dead character sheets I've been collecting the for 10 years... one second... annnd we have 2 gnomes, 1 halfling, 1 kobold, 2 dwarves, 4 humans, 1 tiefling, 3 elves, 1 goliath, 1 warfoged, 2 half elves, and 1 half orc.
That accounts for 6 characters less than 5 feet, and 13 characters who view the world from 5-8 feet up.
Two things:
Since the pit spells aren't completely enclosed spaces (they have an open exit to the real world) a GM could rule that other extradimensional objects retain their normal abilities, because of this connection. Furthermore, I think the extradimensional spaces rule applies specifically to permanent extradimensional spaces created to store objects not temporary extradimensional spaces mean't to trap and harm creatures.
Medium-size creatures take up one vertical square and have a reach of 1 square (for a total of two 5-foot squares). Small-size creatures follow the exact same rules (the difference between 4-foot and 6-foot is inconsequential for combat purposes). A Medium or Small creature may take up 2 total squares, but only one of those squares is actually taken up by their body. Thus, a Medium-size person standing in a pit does not have line of sight or line of effect to anything out of the pit unless their opponent is looking over the edge down at them (or within 5-feet of the pit's edge for combat measurement and practicality purposes). Of course the same goes for any creature trying to get line of sight or effect to a creature in a pit.
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For those of you who are having a hard time visualizing what is going on here I made a little diagram of 5 foot sections
The little green man is our average human PC standing at a towering 5'5 inches tall (Which by modern standards is short). The red line is the line of effect. Note that he is standing in a safe square with no angled sides and still has nothing blocking his line of sight to the bottom of the 10 foot pit and the unhappy creature about to get shot full of holes. Anything not cowering in the corner nearest the NPC will be in view.
Also, keep in mind this isn't even keeping in mind how tall the various creatures in the pit might be.
Edit: Scratch this bit about 20 ft pits, did the math, only 2 squares are visible in them.
Edit for better visual.
Your visual senses are calculated from eye height, not your crotch.
For those of you who are having a hard time visualizing what is going on here I made a little diagram of 5 foot sections
The little green man is our average human PC standing at a towering 5'5 inches tall (Which by modern standards is short). The red line is the line of effect. Note that he is standing in a safe square with no angled sides and still has nothing blocking his line of sight to the bottom of the 10 foot pit. Anything not cowering in the corner nearest the NPC will be in view.
Also, keep in mind this isn't even keeping in mind how tall the various creatures in the pit might be. Say you have a pit 20 feet deep. Creature is 6 feet tall. As long as you are about 5'5 or above you can still see their head as long as they aren't in the 2 spaces closest to you. Beyond 20 feet it DOES become impossible without standing on the edge.
Your visual senses are calculated from eye height, not your crotch.
I've got no problem with this. Ignoring your 5-foot slope (we don't know if the pit has sloping edges at all. It could be straight down from the floor) your guy's only standing 5-feet away from the pit. That's not a problem. If he were standing 20-foot back it would be a little different however. Though I'm not sure you're arguing that specifically.
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I've got no problem with this. Ignoring your 5-foot slope (we don't know if the pit has sloping edges at all. It could be straight down from the floor) your guy's only standing 5-feet away from the pit. That's not a problem. If he were standing 20-foot back it would be a little different however. Though I'm not sure you're arguing that specifically.
On the spell description is defines the pit as having sloped edges, which is why you cant get closer than 5.01 feet from the edge without a reflex.
In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.
And no, hehe, I am not making the case what standing back 20 feet allows LoS or LoE, that would just be goofy.
But one thing does have me worried so far, I have a player who spent his first 3 levels worth of gold into a bag of holding and wants to combo off this spell by stocking up on barrels of oil and sending it crashing down into the hole with whatever helpless creatures followed by a sunrod or spark cantrip shortly thereafter.
This is one of those spells that is infinitely powerful based on infinite imagination.
Most humanoids stand somewhere between 5 and 6 feet tall. Their arms are probably at least two feet long. That's maybe a one or two foot jump to grab the edge of the pit (DC 10 Acrobatics), and then they can pull themselves up. Bad guy is out a full round action, but no longer. This seems to match with the intent of a low-level spell or trap. I usually don't even make them roll unless they're in heavy armor.
TL;DR - I've always ruled that a Medium sized character can just pull themselves out of a pit as a full round action without a roll.