The trigger for a readied action need not be another action. It can be a situation (falling, getting into range, becoming flanked).
In this case, there is no need to enter the "interrupt an action" logic traps.
Logic trap? It was a specific instance that came up in game that I was looking for clarification on. The situation that caused it interrupted an action, which caused the action, the action then resolves before the action that causes it (according to the RAW)...
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I realize there are other issues floating around in here, but let me go on and state one point clearly...
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
As for the rest.. I'll let it shake out a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason,
This is probably a dead horse, but I don't quite understand your point here.
Thinking in cinematic terms, an AoO is provoked when a specific action occurs, interrupting the action. So, as someone pulls their arms under them and rises to their knees to stand up, you bring your weapon/leg across them, knocking their hands or leg out from under them, causing their attempt to stand up to fail, wasting their move to stand up.
Used in the movies, and, IIRC, martial arts, all the time. Or maybe I watch too many Jackie Chan and Jet Li movies.
This is probably a dead horse, but I don't quite understand your point here.
Thinking in cinematic terms, an AoO is provoked when a specific action occurs, interrupting the action. So, as someone pulls their arms under them and rises to their knees to stand up, you bring your weapon/leg across them, knocking their hands or leg out from under them, causing their attempt to stand up to fail, wasting their move to stand up.
Used in the movies, and, IIRC, martial arts, all the time. Or maybe I watch too many Jackie Chan and Jet Li movies.
I'll help you try to revive that dead horse -
What you describe is the kneeling position, a state between prone and standing which the rules acknowledge grants a +2 bonus to AC from ranged and a -2 AC penalty to melee attacks.
The rules do not say if rising from either prone to a kneel or kneel to standing provokes, BUT, what you describe would be expressed in the rules as rising from kneel to standing provoking an AoO - you'd get them rising from prone when they're transitioning from kneeling to standing (in a simmilar way how you trip someone running by in the middle of their move, they don't fall prone back where they started that was out of reach despite the AoO technically 'resolving before the action that triggered it'). The trip attack then knocks them from kneeling back to prone.
I tried that as a house rule, but while more realistic and cinematic, it's also more awkward and complex, which is why ultimatly I think they actually intentionally just kind of fudge it by saying you can effectivly never trip someone while they're trying to stand up, even though it IS a common move in real life as well as fiction.
I solve this by making standing from prone a non-AoO action.
Yea, that's what 4e did. Not very realistic, but arguably mechanically desireable.
IRL 'trip-locking' just as much a problem to trying to enforce 'a fair fight' - that's why there's ettiquette that you let someone get back to their feet, don't kick them when they're down, etc.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The claims about an AoO happeneing before the action that provokes it is something of a bugaboo. I move from square A1 to A6. In the process, I provoke an AoO from a Medium enemy in square B4. Surely nobody's going to tell me that the enemy would have to trip me before I start my move action.
'Realistic' in a game where men kill monsters the size of 747s with 3ft. pieces of metal! I've seen too many movies and martial arts fights where people got up from the prone without getting attacked to think this unrealistic.
Perhaps martial arts fights aren't the best way to imagine a melee between two 1st-level warriors.
I'm posting from work, and I don't have access to my library of Pathfinder rules. Is there a way to Acrobatically jump up from prone so that you don't provoke? Maybe making two move actions (to one's knees, and then standing)? Maybe a Bluff? Maybe some sort of feat?
If not, then there doesn't seem to be any good way to rise from being tripped. If there is some way around it, some techniques that allow accomplished fighters to do things that normal soldiers can't, then it seems like a reasonable tactic.
Perhaps martial arts fights aren't the best way to imagine a melee between two 1st-level warriors.
Right, that's what feats and class powers are for. I got no problem at all with drunken master hopping up, swigging and cracking the spearman in the head using his combat technique. Problem is chump spearman doing it to drunken master and telling me HE must just stand and watch while spear boy struggles to his feat - physically incapable of just sweeping the leg. That offends fiction as well as real life, and is only in there out of meta combat balance considerations.
Perhaps martial arts fights aren't the best way to imagine a melee between two 1st-level warriors.Right, that's what feats and class powers are for. I got no problem at all with drunken master hopping up, swigging and cracking the spearman in the head using his combat technique. Problem is chump spearman doing it to drunken master and telling me HE must just stand and watch while spear boy struggles to his feat - physically incapable of just sweeping the leg. That offends fiction as well as real life, and is only in there out of meta combat balance considerations.
Trip the person and find someway to delay them standing up for a turn. Now you can ready an action to trip someone when they stand up. Now, not only do you get to smack them when they are getting up, you get to attempt to trip them when they finally stand up.
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Perhaps martial arts fights aren't the best way to imagine a melee between two 1st-level warriors.Right, that's what feats and class powers are for. I got no problem at all with drunken master hopping up, swigging and cracking the spearman in the head using his combat technique. Problem is chump spearman doing it to drunken master and telling me HE must just stand and watch while spear boy struggles to his feat - physically incapable of just sweeping the leg. That offends fiction as well as real life, and is only in there out of meta combat balance considerations.
What Traken said. Ready an action for when he stands to trip him again. Problem solved, fiction satisfied.
The claims about an AoO happeneing before the action that provokes it is something of a bugaboo. I move from square A1 to A6. In the process, I provoke an AoO from a Medium enemy in square B4. Surely nobody's going to tell me that the enemy would have to trip me before I start my move action.
'Realistic' in a game where men kill monsters the size of 747s with 3ft. pieces of metal! I've seen too many movies and martial arts fights where people got up from the prone without getting attacked to think this unrealistic.
On the other hand, we have spell casting causing an AoO. Obviously the AoO has to go off before he casts the spell because if you hit him he has to make a concentration check before casting it. What would be the point in that check if the spell had already been cast?
The claims about an AoO happeneing before the action that provokes it is something of a bugaboo. I move from square A1 to A6. In the process, I provoke an AoO from a Medium enemy in square B4. Surely nobody's going to tell me that the enemy would have to trip me before I start my move action.
Movement is done in 5' increments. You say you're going to use your move action to move up to your speed.
You move from A1 to A2, no problem.A2 to A3, still good.
A3 to A4 uh oh, A3 is a square B4 threatens so now he gets his AoO. If he just hits you great, you can now continue moving A4 to A5 and A5 to A6. If he trips you successfully with his AoO your movement ends in A3 with you prone.
Rise, my minion! Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssseeeeeeeeeee!!!!
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I solve this by making standing from prone a non-AoO action.Yea, that's what 4e did.
Gah! You seem to be right (checking my PHB pdf) - I seem to have been doing that wrong for my entire 4e campaign! Perhaps the DM Screen is wrong and the cause of my mis-ruling(or more likely I assumed the rule was the same as in 3.5).
Well I know now, so at least the thread necro was good for something! :)
Rise, my minion! Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssssseeeeeeeeeee!!!!
LOL - yea I love it. Herbert West, Thread Reanimator
What Traken said. Ready an action for when he stands to trip him again. Problem solved, fiction satisfied.
Right, right - Stand ready over them for AoO at +4 for retroactivly attacking them while still prone, trigger the readied trip to go off once they're standing somehow (that's also retoractive, so you have to be clever with the wording - just say 'when they're standing', it still goes off before they're standing, so you're back where you've started).
Problem is - that still puts the person that should have the advantage at a disadvantage because the prone guy just attacks instead. -4 and he's still on the floor, true, but then no AoO and the ready doesn't trigger, effectivly wasting the readied guy's turn and he's back at square one with maybe a busted ankle for his trouble. Chump spearman can happily play that game against Jet Li all day. Again, I totally buy that with Jet Li on the floor using some sort of ground fighting kung fu, but doesn't make a good scene vice versa.
I think you could still work something out if the DM allows a lot of conditional statements on the readied action, but then it can get burdonsome, like you're writing lines of software code to work around a bug.
At worst, you get a free AoO when they try and rise. If they are knocked prone again, they can use their other move action to stand. Since you can't get two AoOss on the same person, they are okay.
Seems like you could just as easily rule that standing is a five foot step, not a move action.
You can't get more than one AoO from the same action, not the same person. ie. wizard moves through more than one threatened square, that provokes more than one AoO. Then he decides to cast a spell (not defensively) and provokes another attack of opportunity.
It seems pretty stupid that you can't trip someone while they are getting up from prone. Though you can't argue with RAW if it says that the attack of opportunity occurs before the provoking action is performed.
I used to have a trip happy character..my DM just kept them prone to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity. *shakes fist at dm*
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Problem is - that still puts the person that should have the advantage at a disadvantage because the prone guy just attacks instead. -4 and he's still on the floor, true, but then no AoO and the ready doesn't trigger, effectivly wasting the readied guy's turn and he's back at square one with maybe a busted ankle for his trouble. Chump spearman can happily play that game against Jet Li all day. Again, I totally buy that with Jet Li on the floor using some sort of ground fighting kung fu, but doesn't make a good scene vice versa.
Now who's not satisfying the fiction? I cannot recall anyone EVER choosing to stay on the ground and fight someone standing over them, in movies or real life bouts.
The person you are attacking *does not know* that you have 'readied your action against X'. The best he can do is guess at what you are doing. Are you waiting for him to get up to trip him again? Maybe you are waiting for the rogue to come over and take a flank? Maybe you are waiting for the Wizard to turn the prone guy into a rabbit.
Keep in mind that just because the player says "I delay until X" or "I ready X action for when he does Z" does *not* mean a shiny red sign appears above your head announcing such actions to whoever you are fighting. The PC's *have* to tell the DM what they are doing- but the DM knowing it isn't the same as the creatures the DM controls knowing it. Just like the PC's do not know what the Monsters are doing.. (because the DM does *not* have to announce to the PC's if a critter is holding, readying, or just waiting for the PC to blow an AoO elsewhere so he can crawl away, or what have you).
-S
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Now who's not satisfying the fiction? I cannot recall anyone EVER choosing to stay on the ground and fight someone standing over them, in movies or real life bouts.
Problem is - that still puts the person that should have the advantage at a disadvantage because the prone guy just attacks instead. -4 and he's still on the floor, true, but then no AoO and the ready doesn't trigger, effectivly wasting the readied guy's turn and he's back at square one with maybe a busted ankle for his trouble. Chump spearman can happily play that game against Jet Li all day. Again, I totally buy that with Jet Li on the floor using some sort of ground fighting kung fu, but doesn't make a good scene vice versa.
I've seen movies where the hero was knocked to the ground and as the bad guy goes to finish him off with the killing blow the hero stabs him in the stomach from the ground. Hmm off the top of my head, Lord of the rings had the halfling stab the ringwraith from prone. I can't think of another specific example but I know I've seen it at least three times, often the villain then slumps over the blade and the hero rolls him off. You're telling me you've never seen that in a film or read it in a novel?
It seems pretty stupid that you can't trip someone while they are getting up from prone. Though you can't argue with RAW if it says that the attack of opportunity occurs before the provoking action is performed.It's not stupid, what it is are people confusing a readied action to trip them again with the AOO that is provoked from standing.
If you look at it in the right way it makes perfect sense, both from RAW and for modeling a combat.
The way I imagine it is, someone is trying to stand up from being prone, as they do this their defenses are let down and as a result a person could either A) injure them in the process but not stop the person from standing or B) use a maneuver to trip the person and thus reversing their efforts.
What is the the right way of viewing the actions?
This still doesn't close the door on the trip/disarm/trip chain though.
Yar.
First, I'd like to re-quote the official dev ruling from lead designer Jason Bulmahn:
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
Now, to explain this with RL logic:
When you are knocked prone, what must you do in order to get up? You do not rise up like a plank with your weapons in your hands in a fighting stance the whole time, staring at your enemy the whole time. First, you must either:
-put a hand on the ground to push yourself up (thus exposing your chest to your enemy while still prone)
-turn to face the ground to push up "push-up" style (thus exposing your back to your enemy while still prone)
-roll backwards (thus exposing your rear end as it goes over your head to your enemy, while still prone) in order to roll onto your feet
-roll back onto your shoulders and placing both hands onto the ground (exposing your rear end again as before, while still prone) in order to spring up onto your feet martial-arts style
-some variation or the above
All these are the first step in getting up, all of which are "lowering your defenses", and is the point in which the AoO is made. If you do a Trip Combat Maneuver during these preparatory moments, you keep him prone for a moment (perhaps pushing him over during a roll back to spring so that he keep on rolling instead, or taking out the legs from the guy who is in crab walk position to get up while facing you), he looks at you funny for a brief moment, then continues to get up (your AoO is spent).
In contrast, if you "Ready an action" to use the Trip Combat Maneuver when this foe stands up, THEN you may try to knock them prone as they are getting up in order to keep them prone (when exactly during the process of standing up this push down move occurs is fluff, mid move or when he’s completely up). THIS is you knocking them back down as they get up. This is what everyone is envisioning as the AoO in this situation, but it is in fact a "Readied Action", NOT an AoO. The AoO happens earlier in the action to stand up, when they are still technically down, and does not prevent them from taking the rest of their action (a.k.a. getting up, as has been confirmed by Jason himself. See quote above and below).
So, in short: and AoO Trip on someone standing up from prone is the equivalent of pushing a person towards the ground while they are still lying on the ground. They then say "WTF" to themselves and proceed to stand up.
A Readied Action to use the Trip Combat Maneuver when your opponent stands up (note this is not "starts to stand up", but simply "stands up") is what must be done, by the rules, to keep a person prone by using the Trip Combat Maneuver (instead of using the Grapple Combat Maneuver to Pin).
And one more time for good measure:
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
~P
Edit: and even if you roll forwards, keeping your gaze upon the tripper, and keeping your weapons in a defensive position in front of you, the amount of muscle control and focus it takes to do that means it's harder to properly defend yourself, even if you keep the appearance of a defensive posture. You also have to shift your weight slightly before you can start getting up in this fashion as well... and that is when the AoO would occur: in that instant that your weight shifts before you actually start rolling forwards to get up.
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I've seen movies where the hero was knocked to the ground and as the bad guy goes to finish him off with the killing blow the hero stabs him in the stomach from the ground. Hmm off the top of my head, Lord of the rings had the halfling stab the ringwraith from prone. I can't think of another specific example but I know I've seen it at least three times, often the villain then slumps over the blade and the hero rolls him off. You're telling me you've never seen that in a film or read it in a novel?
Not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the hero getting knocked down and instead of chosing to get up, or make an attack to ward the villian off so he can get up, stay on the ground for the rest of the fight. Which is how I read the post I responded to.
Yar.
In the case of a Disarm Combat Maneuver to disarm a wand from a person reaching for a wand (or weapon, or whatever), the same thing is true.
The AoO happens before they have the wand/weapon/whatever in their hand, so it does nothing, as you cannot disarm something that is not in their hands.
IF however you "Ready an Action" to use the Disarm Combat Maneuver to "disarm my opponent when he arm himself with W/W/W", THEN you can do exactly what everyone is envisioning. This is you waiting for your opponent to have the item in hand so that you can disarm him.
The AoO happens BEFORE the item is in hand.
When exactly is this? Perhaps when the opponent looks at his sheath or pocket or whatever to make sure his item is there in order to be grasped. He is no longer looking at you (lowered defense) and thus provokes an AoO.
Perhaps he doesn't look. He just moves his hand to grab it. Well, even though he's still looking at you, his hand is no longer moving in front of him in an offensive / defensive manner. It is instead moving towards his stored item. That is and entire hand/arm that is no longer protecting the guy (lowered defense) and thus an AoO occures.
Very few people (except in play by post/messaging system games) tend to go into this much detail in their actions. It takes too long. But this IS what is being assumed to have happened by the rules.
~P
Edit: a few words were off. his = him, etc. Fixed them.
Yar.
In the case of a Disarm Combat Maneuver to disarm a wand from a person reaching for a wand (or weapon, or whatever), the same thing is true.
The AoO happens before they have the wand/weapon/whatever in their hand, so it does nothing, as you cannot disarm something that is not in their hands.
IF however you "Ready an Action" to use the Disarm Combat Maneuver to "disarm my opponent when he arm himself with W/W/W", THEN you can do exactly what everyone is envisioning. This is you waiting for your opponent to have the item in hand so that you can disarm him.
The AoO happens BEFORE the item is in hand.
When exactly is this? Perhaps when the opponent looks at his sheath or pocket or whatever to make sure his item is there in order to be grasped. He is no longer looking at you (lowered defense) and thus provokes an AoO.
Perhaps he doesn't look. He just moves his hand to grab it. Well, even though he's still looking at you, his hand is no longer moving in front of his in an offensive or defensive manner. It is instead moving towards his item. That is and entire hand/arm that is no longer protecting the guy (lowered defense) and thus an AoO occures.
Very few people (except in play by post/messaging system games) tend to go into this much detail in their actions. It takes too long. But this IS what is being assumed to have happened by the rules.
~P
I never realized that, but it is true. AoO's should have been worded to happen in the middle of the action, but then again that might just open a whole new can of worms.
I will never understand this obsession with trying to introduce "trip locking" into the game.
I never realized that, but it is true. AoO's should have been worded to happen in the middle of the action, but then again that might just open a whole new can of worms.
I think I'm caught on the whole "order of actions" thing too. They just don't seem to make sense.
I've always figured that AoO's happened at basically the exact same time as the action that triggered them. I'm not whacking the mage when he's thinking about pulling the wand, or even when he's just started to pull it. I'm whacking him because I just realized there's a wand being drawn (i.e. in his hand, though not necessarily free of it's holder yet)
If you think about it, if someone triggers an AoO for loading a crossbow, even though you're resolving the AoO mechanically before the reloading happens, that's not actually what's going on. What's going on is that the guy with the crossbow is cranking back on the string, and the guy next to them is hitting them while they do it, not before.
They aren't being hit for thinking about it, or even when they first start it. They're being hit while they're committing the action. Sometimes it interrupts the action, but this isn't a Bush air-stike. We aren't preemptively hitting someone for what they might do in another half-second, we're hitting them for what they're doing right friggin' now.
So in the case of standing up, it seems like regardless of the order of actions (mechanically speaking), it makes perfect sense that an AoO performed on someone trying to stand is actually performed midway between standing and prone, as they are committing the act of trying to stand, and the person hitting them for it is often doing so with the express purpose of keeping them on the ground.
Why that's not a perfectly valid option is beyond me.
Yar.
Why that's not a perfectly valid option is beyond me.
It is valid... as a houserule. However, the RAW is not so. The RAW acts as I have stated above.
~P
Interesting, was not aware that this did not work in 3.5.
The consensus seems to have validity. How to break this to my player...
HmmmmmmmMMMMAHAHAHAHAAAA! >: D
To soften the blow (punny!), tell your player that as the target is prone, the Attack of Opportunity is at a +4 to hit :) If he is prone, he suffers that penalty at least.
GNOME
OMG I can't believe that there is 500 posts about this.
If it is really that hard for you to visualize someone being repeatedly knocked over, you probably didn't play outside much when you were little.
And if it is really that hard for you to visualize the negative effects trip locking has on the game, then you probably don't play DnD/PF very much.
only ten more to make 500.
why is there so much interest in keeping a defender on the ground, it is only a - 4 attack and AC (+4 to ranged), they can still attack and defend, it is just harder to move? also it makes sense that while a creature attacking gains the benefit of the defender having a penalty of -4 then they are still prone, still on the ground, if they didn't get the penalty they would be up. so the attack of opportunity must be when they are still prone. just as if they were attempting any action that would cause AoO the condition doesn't take place until after the AoO and then the action, attempting a bull rush the defender isn't moved until after the AoO and then after a successful action. and the time is very short, rounds are a number of seconds, the kind of tripping over and over that you see some expert judo masters do takes some time and is because they are anticipating the grounded defender will stand up and in what way they are going to stand up, in other words they are readying their action for when the defender is going to try and stand. in the Pathfinder round the defender is immediately trying to stand and the AoO is an instinctive reaction. it is very fast, maybe even within the same round.
only ten more to go, then this falls into a new class of posts. i wonder if we will be able to get it up there. it will get a standing ovation, what a trip it has taken us on.
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Why... Won't... This.. Thread... Die!!!
I just noticed this thread for the first time, I read up to Dev. responce then skipped to end.
Not sure why it won't die. Maybe it should be split somewhere around page 4 and turned into houserules/suggestions thread?
Greg
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..in other words they are readying their action for when the defender is going to try and stand. in the Pathfinder round the defender is immediately trying to stand and the AoO is an instinctive reaction. it is very fast, maybe even within the same round.
Aye aye -- AoO's a 'free' while readied actions require an investiture of resource[action] and resource[time]!
Which, for me, makes the game interesting.
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Want to kick them in the face as soon as you see an opening? Take that AoO and kick them when they're down! They're still down, but hey, KICK TO THE FACE!1!
Want to put them down when they get up? Ready that action and get prepare to reacquaint them with terra firma!
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ALL HAIL THREAD-RA, THE EVERLIVING!
Another viable option, the one I was getting to earlier, was to take your AoO to disarm the foe while he's trying to stand. He can either try to fight on disarmed, or try to pick up his weapon, which provokes an AoO for you to trip him...
I don't see that lasting long though, of course the enemy is going to either fight from the floor or standing and without a weapon. But at least you can assure some sort of hindrance.
Why... Won't... This.. Thread... Die!!!
Because it's the Verbal Component for Augmented Summoning of Greater Half-Infernal Zombie Constructs. And they're ALWAYS hard to take down...
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..the system is being pretty emulative.
How are you defining 'emulative'?
[Within the context of your reasoning]
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*clarifaction*
Aah. Thank you.
Hmm..