"Trip-Locking Doesn't Work" - Official Ruling or Not?


Rules Questions

501 to 550 of 556 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>

.
..
...
....
.....

Shar Tahl wrote:
There . 5000. now the thread can die already

+1

..

*shakes fist*


cranewings wrote:

I'm not sure I get what the problem is with the constant trip. If a monster is so strong it can keep it up against a fighter, the system is being pretty emulative.

If it is a fighter doing it to another fighter, he is giving up damage to keep the trip going, so big deal. Plus, it isn't going to work all the time because the fighter will have a high CMD.

If a fighter is tripping a wizard or a rogue, tough crap, should have played a character that is better at fighting, or acted like a real rogue and had allies around, or a real wizard and been flying already.

No matter how you play this scene, as an AoO or a ready action, I hardly see that it matters.

How is he giving up damage. AoO's don't take away actions. It is a freebie to keep your opponent down, assuming your version worked, which lowers your AC which in turn increases your DPR. It seems to me that damage goes up.

You also have to remember that -4 for being prone also applies to CMD, and if the fighter has greater trip he gets a +4 which is a virtual -8 to the prone guy's CMD. I am pretty sure if a fighter has you at a -8 chances are you will die before you get back up.

Telling someone what character to play is not a valid argument, and as the last paragraph showed the class won't really matter. Having allies might not save you. I am sure a trip-fighter would have combat reflexes so he might just have everyone prone. As for the flying statement. Anyone at level 10 can get access to flight. That is common knowledge.
Flying is also not always the optimal decision so saying someone can always be flying is a crap statement anyway. If I have to explain why always flying is not always a decent decision then expect for to explain it kiddy style.
I will give you a freebie though. The spell may have already been used that day. I am sure you can think of a few others on your own.
If you don't mind being locked in place then house rule it, but being stuck with no way out is not everyone's idea of fun, and telling others what to play, when it has no bearing on the tactic at hand is degrading.
Should have played something that knows how to fight, really?. I still can't believe that was the best answer you could come up with. Well when the fighter can't pick the lock are you going to change the answer to should have played a rogue. There is a feat(defensive combat training) where BAB=character level, for the purpose of CMD. What is your excuse if the medium BAB character takes that feat?

PS:Why do people post such responses without thinking of the counters that will come from the other person? I am sure a flying caster is not immune to death in anyone's game. This is a hint for you to think of a reply to whatever it is you are about to type before posting it so I don't have to waste time explaining things.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
BenignFacist wrote:

.

..
...
....
.....

Shar Tahl wrote:
There . 5000. now the thread can die already

+1

..

*shakes fist*

Can does not mean will. Also, this thread WAS dead before and it came back.


Wraith Strike, I'm serious, I don't think this is that big of a deal. Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.

He is giving up damage. Instead of hitting the guy with his AoO, he is tripping him.

When the guy is standing up, let him ready his action to grab the guy's weapon when he is being tripped, or ready action to grapple. He stands, takes the AoO, and responds with interrupting the AoO.

I don't care if it isn't in the rules. Just let people go. This nitpicky whining over what is fair and fun is kind of silly to me. If someone is getting smashed by an equal because of the system, and the player thinks of a way out like grabbing the guys stuff or using bluff to get up in a strange fashion or anything else, just let him.

You can fix all these problem by keeping it fluid and playing on the fly.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
lastknightleft wrote:
I've seen movies where the hero was knocked to the ground and as the bad guy goes to finish him off with the killing blow the hero stabs him in the stomach from the ground. Hmm off the top of my head, Lord of the rings had the halfling stab the ringwraith from prone. I can't think of another specific example but I know I've seen it at least three times, often the villain then slumps over the blade and the hero rolls him off. You're telling me you've never seen that in a film or read it in a novel?
Not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the hero getting knocked down and instead of chosing to get up, or make an attack to ward the villian off so he can get up, stay on the ground for the rest of the fight. Which is how I read the post I responded to.

It is called ground fighting an esoteric (but viable) martial arts technique. Although (admittedly) the goal of ground fighting is to either back the vertical opponent off so one can safely rise to standing or render your opponent prone as well; where your training in fighting while prone "should" provide you with an edge.


Yar!

cranewings wrote:
I don't care if it isn't in the rules.

And this here is the issue. This thread is in the RULES FORUM. Every post arguing that an AoO should be able to keep an opponent perma-tripped up until this one reads like the poster believes it should be, or is in fact, the rule.

But it is not the rule. And that is the point. This has been confirmed by Jason Bulmahn himself. I also feel that I did a good job of explaining when and how an AoO actually takes place, without being a preemptive strike, but still taking place before the execution of the action instead of in the middle of it.

Everything described about a guy constantly knocking someone down or the bear mauling someone IS covered by the rules via "Readied Actions" or the "Grapple Combat Maneuver" (you can still make natural attacks while grappled, but cannot easily escape, which is what the bear would be doing, IMO).

RAW AoO does not describe these actions. RAW Readied actions do. Some people will obviously house rule that AoOs can do this, but that is not the RAW. As we are in the RULES FORUM instead of the houserule/suggestions forum, those of us who know the RAW (or at least think that we do) will always post rebuttals against posts that say something that is not RAW but posted in the rules forum in a way that suggests that it is or that it should be.

And so this thread continues.

We post here specifically TO discuss and nitpick the rules. That (and clarifications on unclear rules and strange occurrences) is the purpose of the rules forum, I believe.

And the point is: according the THE RULES of the game, "trip-locking" and such does not work via AoO (but can with readied actions), as has been illustrated by myself and several other posters, and confirmed by the Lead Designer.

~P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Damian Magecraft wrote:
It is called ground fighting an esoteric (but viable) martial arts technique. Although (admittedly) the goal of ground fighting is to either back the vertical opponent off so one can safely rise to standing or render your opponent prone as well; where your training in fighting while prone "should" provide you with an edge.

Exactly. No 'chump spearman' is going to choose to stay on the ground while Jet Li is standing over them. He's going to get up, ward Jet Li off so he can get up, or get Jet Li on the ground with him. Not spend the rest of the fight that way. Which is what I read that post's point as.


Fair enough. I'm just in a bad mood because I'm apparently too stupid to figure out these differential equations, so I joined this thread to troll. I'll stop (;

Sorry gents.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:
It is called ground fighting an esoteric (but viable) martial arts technique. Although (admittedly) the goal of ground fighting is to either back the vertical opponent off so one can safely rise to standing or render your opponent prone as well; where your training in fighting while prone "should" provide you with an edge.
Exactly. No 'chump spearman' is going to choose to stay on the ground while Jet Li is standing over them. He's going to get up, ward Jet Li off so he can get up, or get Jet Li on the ground with him. Not spend the rest of the fight that way. Which is what I read that post's point as.

Of course that just begs the question...

Where is the ground fighting feat?
How would one word such a feat?


Also this thread has me wondering the following...
Why does the monk not get the kip up ability?
I picture the monk as a Jet Li/Jackie Chan acrobatic style fighter. That is among the first things one learns in martial arts/acrobatics.


.
..
...
....
.....

cranewings wrote:
o_o differential equation fun @_@

Post em in the Off-Topic Forum -- Maybe someone will do them for you! :)

*shakes fist*


Pirate wrote:

Yar!

cranewings wrote:
I don't care if it isn't in the rules.

And this here is the issue. This thread is in the RULES FORUM. Every post arguing that an AoO should be able to keep an opponent perma-tripped up until this one reads like the poster believes it should be, or is in fact, the rule.

But it is not the rule. And that is the point. This has been confirmed by Jason Bulmahn himself. I also feel that I did a good job of explaining when and how an AoO actually takes place, without being a preemptive strike, but still taking place before the execution of the action instead of in the middle of it.

Everything described about a guy constantly knocking someone down or the bear mauling someone IS covered by the rules via "Readied Actions" or the "Grapple Combat Maneuver" (you can still make natural attacks while grappled, but cannot easily escape, which is what the bear would be doing, IMO).

RAW AoO does not describe these actions. RAW Readied actions do. Some people will obviously house rule that AoOs can do this, but that is not the RAW. As we are in the RULES FORUM instead of the houserule/suggestions forum, those of us who know the RAW (or at least think that we do) will always post rebuttals against posts that say something that is not RAW but posted in the rules forum in a way that suggests that it is or that it should be.

And so this thread continues.

We post here specifically TO discuss and nitpick the rules. That (and clarifications on unclear rules and strange occurrences) is the purpose of the rules forum, I believe.

And the point is: according the THE RULES of the game, "trip-locking" and such does not work via AoO (but can with readied actions), as has been illustrated by myself and several other posters, and confirmed by the Lead Designer.

~P

+1. I am all for house rules and making whatever changes make a game work for a particular group, but I am not for it in this particular forum. This forum is for arguing what the rules are. There are other forums for arguing what they should be.


BenignFacist wrote:

.

..
...
....
.....

cranewings wrote:
o_o differential equation fun @_@

Post em in the Off-Topic Forum -- Maybe someone will do them for you! :)

*shakes fist*

The problem is that I'm learning them in two classes. I'm getting the basic version in Calc 2, as part of the normal class. I'm also getting harder ones, with no math background to explain them, in an engineering class, where we are suppose to just solve them by a bunch of different methods without knowing how or why to do them that way.


cranewings wrote:
..the madness

THAT SOUND LIKE FUN!

.

No, wait..

O_o

Spoiler:
I reckon someone will know something and be bored enough to give you the run down if you post 'em/your queries in the Off-Topic area. Lotta crazy people lurking there...

...craaazy people.

*shakes fist*


BenignFacist wrote:
cranewings wrote:
..the madness

THAT SOUND LIKE FUN!

.

No, wait..

O_o

** spoiler omitted **

*shakes fist*

OFF TOPIC!!!!:
so the patented "*shakes fist* ", is that cut n paste or do you type it every time?

Greg


this post is thread-locked.everyone hopes to get the last thread in and that's why it is going to be prone prolonged, not because of Attacks of Opportunity, nor because of readied actions, they ran out long time ago, it is because of grapple. you see the only way to legitimately keep a creature prone seems to be using readied actions as has been hinted at, what happened here is the prone creature didn't stand up, it grappled the tripper.

soon it will be it's own game.
i predict 1258 threads.


Damian Magecraft wrote:

Also this thread has me wondering the following...

Why does the monk not get the kip up ability?

that's interesting it might be a good idea to allow some kind of acrobatic standing up. at the moment you can use acrobatics to move through a threatened area while prone, it is a full round 5 ft. action and you are still prone.

moving while prone is 5 ft per move action (10 ft a round), theoretically you could move 5 ft then stand up provoking only one attack of opportunity while you move back because you are prone still, of course the opponent can just take a 5 ft step and trip you again.
if moving through a threatened area while prone acrobatic was a move action instead then you could do the whole thing without provoking an attack of opportunity effectively kipping up behind you.
still you would be only 10 ft away.
better than not being able to do it.

maybe they could extend the rule to allowing an acrobatic stand up without provoking attack of opportunity as a full round, standard action or move action. then you could effectively kip up.

yes.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
I picture the monk as a Jet Li/Jackie Chan acrobatic style fighter. That is among the first things one learns in martial arts/acrobatics.

whatever happened to Friar tuck. :) he could be the inspiration for art on a kip up maneuver


shiktang wrote:
Damian Magecraft wrote:

Also this thread has me wondering the following...

Why does the monk not get the kip up ability?

that's interesting it might be a good idea to allow some kind of acrobatic standing up. at the moment you can use acrobatics to move through a threatened area while prone, it is a full round 5 ft. action and you are still prone. moving while prone is 5 ft per move action (10 ft a round, theoretically you could move 5 ft then stand up provoking only one attack of opportunity while you move back because you are prone still, of course the opponent can just take a 5 ft step and trip you again. if moving through a threatened area while prone acrobatic was a move action instead then you could do the whole thing without provoking an attack of opportunity effectively kipping up behind you. still you would be only 10 ft away. better than not being able to do it. maybe they could extend the rule to allowing an acrobatic stand up without provoking attack of opportunity as a full round, standard action or move action. then you could effectively kip up.

yes.

Damian Magecraft wrote:
I picture the monk as a Jet Li/Jackie Chan acrobatic style fighter. That is among the first things one learns in martial arts/acrobatics.
whatever happened to Friar tuck.

He is more of a cleric by the games standard.


Quote:
He is more of a cleric by the games standard.

what about his robe


Skip Williams wrote:
It's possible to attempt a trip attack as an attack of opportunity. Fortunately, you can't be tripped while getting up from prone, at least not through the attack of opportunity you provoke. That because attacks of opportunity are resolved before the actions that provoke them (there are a few exceptions, see Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity for details). When you try to stand up from a prone position, the attack of opportunity comes before you get back on your feet. Since you're still prone when the attack comes, the attack of opportunity can't trip you.

here

Skip Williams is about as official as you can get.


Karlgamer wrote:
Skip Williams wrote:
It's possible to attempt a trip attack as an attack of opportunity. Fortunately, you can't be tripped while getting up from prone, at least not through the attack of opportunity you provoke. That because attacks of opportunity are resolved before the actions that provoke them (there are a few exceptions, see Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity for details). When you try to stand up from a prone position, the attack of opportunity comes before you get back on your feet. Since you're still prone when the attack comes, the attack of opportunity can't trip you.

here

Skip Williams is about as official as you can get.

The developers answered this post early in the thread. That is what is so funny. This IS in the rules section and there is no arguement it is a rule now. Now there is a bunch of peeps offering houserule counters to it or saying it is a nonsensical rule. While others argue in its defense. Plus some just fun digressions for any long thread. :p

I for one am glad it was brought back from the dead.

Greg


shiktang wrote:
Quote:
He is more of a cleric by the games standard.
what about his robe

I can see him stat'ed up as Monk (weapon master) using the Quarterstaff.

Greg


Quote:

I can see him stat'ed up as Monk (weapon master) using the Quarterstaff.

Greg

all right, now we're talking.

i think it is beginning to make sense why this post is still going after the official ruling long time ago, i don't even remember on what page it first appears.

it is because it is in the title "Trip-Locking Doesn't Work" - Official Ruling or Not?. it is setting out to prove that Trip locking doesn't work in real life, beyond the rules and way past the game. it is a martial arts question.

i think there is a way to resolve this:
live action roleplaying.
we will need all the pathfinder groups who would like to help to meet together and select a player (probably the player who most thinks trip-locking will be real) to spar the gm, who will only try and stand up if tripped and then do an action or move, and the player will only try and trip the gm. we will need a mat so no one is injured. a flannel shirt should suffice. and we will need another player to time the trips and make sure that two happen within the 1st round time (4-6 seconds i think) and one each subsequent round. and one more player to watch and see if the trips are reaction attacks or readied attacks (predicted), this will be very hard and the player will need to watch the tripper very carefully. all participants need to be voluntary and if under age need to have parental or guardian permission as we do not want to cause a friendship to be troubled or a family feud to begin, that is for a different combat maneuver. we will need about 10 or more tests for each role-playing group to make sure our results are accurate. for more realism you can dress in a character costume, a creature outfit, or just hold a plush toy, or have another player doing sound effects. when each team has its results they can begin to get them organised and put them on this post.


if the results look like:
gm was tripped and prone 11 times in 10 rounds. 10 reapeats. all trips after the first looked like reaction.
then we know trip locking can work.

oooh ofcourse the tripper will need so do something else with their action so maybe they can cast a spell each round aswel.

if we get enough results from a range of groups then we will have sufficiently proven whether or not trip locking is real.

if not then sending it in to Mythbusters seems like the neutral good thing to do. then it will be hotly debated on their website even after the test.


.
..
...
....
.....

Greg Wasson wrote:
*Secrets of the Benign Iron Fist Technique*

Spoiler:
At BIFTech, we pride ourselves on providing a quality service to our customers. Every fist we shake is hand shaken for that distinctive 'fist shake' freshness, every time.

You won't find the lads here at BIFTech copying and pasting text, eating the flesh of their elders or performing dark rites to enslave penumbrous playthings.

We're a family company.

And family means fist shaking.

::

BIFTech

Shaking a freshly typed fist - every time you post.

*shakes fist*


Garden Tool wrote:

It seems to be the general consensus around here that you can't make a trip attack-of-opportunity on a character who is standing up from prone.

Has this rule been clarified by the devs, or is this just a trend that the board seems mainly to agree with? If this rule has been confirmed by Jason or another dev, could someone direct me to the post? This could have a very significant impact on my games as one of my players is a HUGE fan of trip builds, and is (kind of) playing one now.

actually it would seem my previous post didn't understand the purpose of the thread, simple rule clarification. And in my admittance i would like to take a post to celebrate the question that started this all off. little did Garden Tool know when innocently asking if trip-locking had been ruled on what sensitive and volatile emotions lied underneath.

i thank you, the pathfinder playing community thanks you


BenignFacist wrote:

.

..
...
....
.....

Greg Wasson wrote:
*Secrets of the Benign Iron Fist Technique*

** spoiler omitted **

*shakes fist*

The "*shakes fist*" always reminded me of the one's Mom made back when I was a kid. *sniff* Thank you, BenignFist.

@shiktang- Dang it, my group needs to find a better play area in order to work your suggested test. I still don't trust some of my players to actually use AoO's. I think they may sneak in some readied actions just to keep me down. Lack of trust always hurts a gaming session :(

Greg


Callarek wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I realize there are other issues floating around in here, but let me go on and state one point clearly...

You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.

As for the rest.. I'll let it shake out a bit.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Jason,

This is probably a dead horse, but I don't quite understand your point here.

Thinking in cinematic terms, an AoO is provoked when a specific action occurs, interrupting the action. So, as someone pulls their arms under them and rises to their knees to stand up, you bring your weapon/leg across them, knocking their hands or leg out from under them, causing their attempt to stand up to fail, wasting their move to stand up.

Used in the movies, and, IIRC, martial arts, all the time. Or maybe I watch too many Jackie Chan and Jet Li movies.

I believe this is where the heart of the misunderstanding of this rule comes from. An AoO is not provoked when a specific action occurs. An AoO is provoked by ceasing to defend yourself so that you may take a specific action.

From the SRD:
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

This is why the AoO is resolved completely before the action that provokes it. Movement is a separate method of provoking an AoO and may be interrupted. Spellcasting is another AoO with a specific interruption exception to how these rules normally work...which is without interruption.

In the example of a trip, the attacker gets a AoO when the prone defender stops using his hands/feat/weapons to ward off blows and moves them to the ground or rolls over to start rising. He is not half way up or even beginning to rise, he's completely prone. He just isn't defending himself anymore because he's redeployed his limbs to prepare to rise. The AoO takes place then, he's hit while completely prone, and then continues to stand since there is no specific exception to this as provided for movement or spellcasting.

Tripping is still a very effective maneuver so I'm a little confused why so many people defend this so arduously, especially when Jason has specifically clarified it.

Grand Lodge

Here's a solution no one ever takes when prone: fight while prone, it's better than trying to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity, and wasting your full-round action. So what if you are prone, if your opponent hit your CMD he's very likely to be able to hit you normally.


Greg Wasson wrote:


@shiktang- Dang it, my group needs to find a better play area in order to work your suggested test. I still don't trust some of my players to actually use AoO's. I think they may sneak in some readied actions just to keep me down. Lack of trust always hurts a gaming session :(
Greg

Greg,

yes science is not easy, and it is often painful, the suggestion will likely cause alot of suffering for knowledge, and you may see me on the news: gamer sued by gamers.

but i'm willing to take that risk and put your bodies on the line.

and Finarin "Tripping is still a very effective maneuver so I'm a little confused why so many people defend this so arduously, especially when Jason has specifically clarified it."

i also can't sleep right at night or in the early afternoon as i ponder on why this post has spawned an undead thread a Dread Thread. i think the reason (the latest theory i have) is because of late 80's and early 90's computer games. all people are asking for is Mortal Kombat logic, to beable to triplock the defenders until they get to the big bad boss at the end and then they can trip lock the boss. without having to learn difficult special techniques or strategy. so that when the game is beaten then they can put their initials in the Top Score. ahhhh. that will feel good, or if they are playing their friends then they will have bragging rights.
that's all people are asking for, is that so terrible a request.
____________________________________________________________________
and the more i think about it the more i think kipping up will cause an attack of opportunity, even if it is friar Jackie (though he would have a nice AC, they would need a 20 to attack him) and the Attack of Opportunity would not allow an actual trip as has been clarified being before the kip, so the cycle begins over.
__________________________________________
if people really want to keep a character down i think dirty trick would be the most frustrating, just throw a cream pie in their head, prone and pied, they will be blinded for a round, and a move action to remove the pie causing AoO, if only you could cream pie them again- just like trip that requires a readied cream pie. that way you would get two AoO if you had combat reflexes, standing and wiping. that's something i'd like to see: cream pie locking. Cream pie is not in the Pfcore, i don't think they would cost more than a copper, or if it is a gourmet version then it could cost up to 2 or 3 gold, if Heston made it (magical cream pie) it would be much more. i've been waiting but haven't seen anything yet, maybe they will come out in a supplement later: the Bard's Arsenal, or maybe Pies of Golarion. ahh but i digress.
fakes shist


shiktang wrote:
Greg Wasson wrote:


@shiktang- Dang it, my group needs to find a better play area in order to work your suggested test. I still don't trust some of my players to actually use AoO's. I think they may sneak in some readied actions just to keep me down. Lack of trust always hurts a gaming session :(
Greg

Greg,

yes science is not easy, and it is often painful, the suggestion will likely cause alot of suffering for knowledge, and you may see me on the news: gamer sued by gamers.

but i'm willing to take that risk and put your bodies on the line.

and Finarin "Tripping is still a very effective maneuver so I'm a little confused why so many people defend this so arduously, especially when Jason has specifically clarified it."

i also can't sleep right at night or in the early afternoon as i ponder on why this post has spawned an undead thread a Dread Thread. i think the reason (the latest theory i have) is because of late 80's and early 90's computer games. all people are asking for is Mortal Kombat logic, to beable to triplock the defenders until they get to the big bad boss at the end and then they can trip lock the boss. without having to learn difficult special techniques or strategy. so that when the game is beaten then they can put their initials in the Top Score. ahhhh. that will feel good, or if they are playing their friends then they will have bragging rights.
that's all people are asking for, is that so terrible a request.
____________________________________________________________________
and the more i think about it the more i think kipping up will cause an attack of opportunity, even if it is friar Jackie (though he would have a nice AC, they would need a 20 to attack him) and the Attack of Opportunity would not allow an actual trip as has been clarified being before the kip, so the cycle begins over.
__________________________________________
if people really want to keep a character down i think dirty trick would be the most frustrating, just throw a cream pie in their...

Everyone knows what the rule is. What is now being debated is whether or not it makes sense. I think the issue is that some are arguing from a balance point of view and other are coming from a realism point of view. Nobody will agree because these are things vary from group to group, and person to person.


shiktang wrote:

if the results look like:

gm was tripped and prone 11 times in 10 rounds. 10 reapeats. all trips after the first looked like reaction.
then we know trip locking can work.

oooh ofcourse the tripper will need so do something else with their action so maybe they can cast a spell each round aswel.

if we get enough results from a range of groups then we will have sufficiently proven whether or not trip locking is real.

if not then sending it in to Mythbusters seems like the neutral good thing to do. then it will be hotly debated on their website even after the test.

I must be a tall dwarf. Every time my player tried to trip me: he fail, I punched him in the gut, stole his beer, and ended up with his woman in my lap.

Did I do something wrong?

Liberty's Edge

Finarin Panjoro wrote:

I believe this is where the heart of the misunderstanding of this rule comes from. An AoO is not provoked when a specific action occurs. An AoO is provoked by ceasing to defend yourself so that you may take a specific action.

From the SRD:
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

This is why the AoO is resolved completely before the action that provokes it. Movement is a separate method of provoking an AoO and may be interrupted. Spellcasting is another AoO with a specific interruption exception to how these rules normally work...which is without interruption.

In the example of a trip, the attacker gets a AoO when the prone defender stops using his hands/feat/weapons to ward off blows and moves them to the...

Something close to a reasonable explanation. Not a great one, but at least understandable.

I would like to call either incomprehension on the part of those saying "Ready an action to trip" is a solution to this issue, when they are either trying to deal with two trippers, or appear not to understand how either tripping or readying an action works.

To ready an action, you need to spend your Standard action.
To perform a Trip maneuver, you have to spend your Standard action.

So, explain to me how you are EVER going to be in a position (without a non-PF item like the Belt of Battle) to be able to spend TWO STandard actions in a single round?

Tripper: Trips opponent (move/swift/etc)
Opponent: Stand (provokes AoO, but AoO cannot prevent the target from standing)
Tripper: Gets his next Standard ACtion, no need to ready the trip, huh.

Now, if you ever got bullied when young, you know that it is eminantly possible to have someone one prevent you from standing from prone, and that it doesn't taker a readied action, but can be done as a reaction to your attempt to stand.

THAT, indeed, is why I did a Raise Dead on this thread, as I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEONE RISING FROM THE GROUND CANNOT BE KNOCKED BACK PRONE.

Sorry for the shouting, but it does NOT make sense.

Since AoOs can be done at multiple points during an AoO-provoking action, like spellcasting or moving from point A to point B, why an AoO provoked by standing up has to be done at the start of standing up instead of at the half-way mark?

A significant portion of standing up from prone is gatherign yoruself together to start rising. If something then hooked your leg or supporting arm/hand while you were rising, you would wind up back on your butt, and have to start all over again.

Or is this really asking for another feat for the Trip chain?

As to one-trick ponies, while I prefer not to play spellcasters (too chaotic, for me, I can never figure out which spells to have my Wizard memorize, too many choices, not enough spell slots..), I only have one character who does trip attacks. I have run multiple archers, some tanks, a few damage dealers, a Warlock, a Marshal, and other types of characters.


Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Plus, am I the only one here who keeps asking themselves why the prone creature doesn't just acrobatics tumble away from the enemy first?
That's exactly why trip-locking SHOULD work. It's trivially easy to get out of the situation, and it prevents nonsense like my earlier example.

Yes, because everyone (npc) has trained acrobatics?


wraithstrike wrote:
What is now being debated is whether or not it makes sense. I think the issue is that some are arguing from a balance point of view and other are coming from a realism point of view. Nobody will agree because these are things vary from group to group, and person to person.

Wraithstrike, yes,

in order to prove this one way or another:
i felt a bit hypocritical asking everyone to be risking injury without putting my own body in harms way, so i tested this trip lock out, my group is playing online at the moment making impossible to go through with the test (and the current GM is very tall, and is the kind to deduct xp, continuously, for being physically attacked by a player, he is very fair that way) so i tripped myself. ofcourse i had to adjust the experiment and the data may not be accurate because of the changes to the test (mainly that it now only has one person instead of potentially 4 or 5). i was hoping this would shed some light or prove if it was possible. so far the results are inconclusive. I certainly was tripped many times, and did not move very far, with all the changes to the test group it is hard be sure of these results, my test definitely proves that my test was inconclusive when using only one person. i was surprised to see that i spent most of my time prone, so ... maybe.

i hope that helps Greg, and thanks Dave you are helping to knock this question down.


Callarek wrote:


To ready an action, you need to spend your Standard action.
To perform a Trip maneuver, you have to spend your Standard action.

So, explain to me how you are EVER going to be in a position (without a non-PF item like the Belt of Battle) to be able to spend TWO STandard actions in a single round?

PRD wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.

So, in responce to your question, "How you are ever going to be in a position to be able to spend two standard actions in a single round?"

It is in the rules.

But actually, do not think of it as TWO standard actions. A readied action is declaring your standard action, but not using it unless conditions are met.

Greg

EDIT: oh, and monks of the four winds from APG can get a ki ability (slow time)allowing extra standard actions. Not really relavent to the Ready action argument though. But it is a PF way to get extra standard actions.


wraithstrike wrote:
Everyone knows what the rule is. What is now being debated is whether or not it makes sense.

actually that's what i don't understand, i will rest my poor bum for a moment and put my jokes aside, what is it that doesn't make sense? the rule was based on attacks of Opportunity being made prior to the action for game's sake and so the defender would be on the ground. there was a way to trip them with readied actions. so i don't understand what is being discussed? what doesn't make sense? the rules allow a repeated trip, just not through AoO's. are people discussing whether or not it will work in real life or in the game, if it is in the game then wasn't that fully proven and discussed already? and if it is in real life then what does it have to do with Pathfinder? and what would it mean to be trip locked in real life. woah this is getting too deep for me right now, i think i need to do some housework.

i do appreciate the sincerity of many of the posts. just don't understand what they are discussing anymore really. thanks for your guidance Wstrike.
i find it oddly enjoyable reading this thread, very enjoyable actually.


it seems that one of my posts was missing, i just wanted to say that i did do my test, (my group plays on line - so i could only use myself) i tripped myself over and over. and i couldn't tell if i was readied or Attacking out of Opportunity. results: inconclusive.
thnks


Rickmeister wrote:
Mirror, Mirror wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Plus, am I the only one here who keeps asking themselves why the prone creature doesn't just acrobatics tumble away from the enemy first?
That's exactly why trip-locking SHOULD work. It's trivially easy to get out of the situation, and it prevents nonsense like my earlier example.
Yes, because everyone (npc) has trained acrobatics?

To add on to this:

You can't even tumble when prone away. You can only crawl. Remember folks your crawl distance is 5 ft, and acrobatics limits you to half movement.


shiktang wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Everyone knows what the rule is. What is now being debated is whether or not it makes sense.

actually that's what i don't understand, i will rest my poor bum for a moment and put my jokes aside, what is it that doesn't make sense? the rule was based on attacks of Opportunity being made prior to the action for game's sake and so the defender would be on the ground. there was a way to trip them with readied actions. so i don't understand what is being discussed? what doesn't make sense? the rules allow a repeated trip, just not through AoO's. are people discussing whether or not it will work in real life or in the game, if it is in the game then wasn't that fully proven and discussed already? and if it is in real life then what does it have to do with Pathfinder? and what would it mean to be trip locked in real life. woah this is getting too deep for me right now, i think i need to do some housework.

i do appreciate the sincerity of many of the posts. just don't understand what they are discussing anymore really. thanks for your guidance Wstrike.
i find it oddly enjoyable reading this thread, very enjoyable actually.

Some people like a certain amount of realism, for lack of a better word, in their games. The problem is that the game is an abstraction, and what is acceptable for one person as far as suspension of belief is not acceptable for another. Some people are also more , hardcore, once again for lack of a better word, and they believe you should just deal with whatever happens and not whine about. Others believe it is not fun to be trapped into an situation that you can not escape from, and that you have no control over barring random luck such two very poor dice rolls back to back, which is what it would take to get away from a dedicated tripper. It seems the devs decided to go with the rules, and the people who don't like being locked down.

At this point no rules are changing so I would just house rule it and move on. I only counterpost to explain the point to anyone else that may do a search and find this thread later.


shiktang wrote:

it seems that one of my posts was missing, i just wanted to say that i did do my test, (my group plays on line - so i could only use myself) i tripped myself over and over. and i couldn't tell if i was readied or Attacking out of Opportunity. results: inconclusive.

thnks

I would suspect you were readying an action. Were you reacting to your getting up as an opportune moment to attack? Or were you focused on waiting for you to start to get up and then tripped yourself? Situation A AoO, Situation B Readied.

Merely knowing you are tryig to trip yourself over and over could hinder/affect the test results. It would be best if you did this as a blind test upon yourself. Could you implant a hypnotic suggestion to continually trip yourself if you try to stand up? Or perhaps develop a multiple personality that likes to keep you down?

It is a conundrom.

Until then, I think it is best if we just use the rules, or if that is just a game ender, houserule otherwise.

Greg


shiktang wrote:

it seems that one of my posts was missing, i just wanted to say that i did do my test, (my group plays on line - so i could only use myself) i tripped myself over and over. and i couldn't tell if i was readied or Attacking out of Opportunity. results: inconclusive.

thnks

It would have been better to have one of the other posters(any of us) make a tripper for you to try to escape from.


wraithstrike wrote:
shiktang wrote:

it seems that one of my posts was missing, i just wanted to say that i did do my test, (my group plays on line - so i could only use myself) i tripped myself over and over. and i couldn't tell if i was readied or Attacking out of Opportunity. results: inconclusive.

thnks
It would have been better to have one of the other posters(any of us) make a tripper for you to try to escape from.

that would be fun.

GW it was definatly option B, thanks.

when i hear house rules i see a group.....
GM: "you finally make it out of the mist, tired and loaded with the treasure of the mountain Giant-"
P1: "i'm not tired"
Gm: "it's just for effect"
P1: "i'm still not tired."
Gm: "ok, can i continue?"
P1: "so long as i am not tired."
P2: "you do smell though-"
Gm: "ok, you come out of the cloudy mist and you see a group of large red robed Quadrupeds running towards you fast, everyone make a knowledge religion check"

P1: "5"
P2: "i don't have any knowledge religion."
P3: " i rolled 15, do i know anything"
P4: "i got 6"
GM: "the cleric recognises the group as monks of Zon-Kuthon, a particularly nasty and sadistic order of zealous fighting monks"
"Roll initiative!"

Liberty's Edge

Greg Wasson wrote:
PRD wrote:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.

So, in responce to your question, "How you are ever going to be in a position to be able to spend two standard actions in a single round?"

It is in the rules.

Maybe if you read the full rules for Readying an Action?

PRD wrote:

Ready

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Emphasis added by me.

So, you attack to trip, which takes your standard action. You canNOT then ready an action to trip when your opponent has completed standing up until AFTER your opponent's next turn, when you next have another standard action, normally.


Callarek wrote:
So, you attack to trip, which takes your standard action. You canNOT then ready an action to trip when your opponent has completed standing up until AFTER your opponent's next turn, when you next have another standard action, normally.

Yes, this is correct. What is your point?

Also, if they provoke for another reason, you can trip as an AoO, then ready to trip off that.

I think this works great for barbarians, with come and get me/unexpected strike. Trip them when they come in for their attack (hopefully with greater trip) then on your turn, ready to trip when they try to get up.

I think that works fantastically with come and get me in fact, as the barbarian AoO is resolved BEFORE the initial attack. If you make them prone, you just negated the +4 atk bonus they got for using come and get me.


Tarantula wrote:
Callarek wrote:
So, you attack to trip, which takes your standard action. You canNOT then ready an action to trip when your opponent has completed standing up until AFTER your opponent's next turn, when you next have another standard action, normally.

Yes, this is correct. What is your point?

Also, if they provoke for another reason, you can trip as an AoO, then ready to trip off that.

I think this works great for barbarians, with come and get me/unexpected strike. Trip them when they come in for their attack (hopefully with greater trip) then on your turn, ready to trip when they try to get up.

I think that works fantastically with come and get me in fact, as the barbarian AoO is resolved BEFORE the initial attack. If you make them prone, you just negated the +4 atk bonus they got for using come and get me.

Come and get me does not come into play until 12th level. By that time a lot of monsters have really high CMD's, and his point was that your first explanation was incorrect by the rules, even though he did seem to be rude by the way he worded his response.


*deleted*

Greg

Paizo Employee Developer

Greg Wasson wrote:

*deleted*

Greg

I read that in Strong Bad's voice. I haven't thought of that site in years.

Liberty's Edge

wraithstrike wrote:
his point was that your first explanation was incorrect by the rules, even though he did seem to be rude by the way he worded his response.

I do apologize for that, sometimes I miss making the DC for those Tact & Diplomacy checks.


Alorha wrote:
Greg Wasson wrote:

*deleted*

Greg

I read that in Strong Bad's voice. I haven't thought of that site in years.

Been about ten years since I was there. Just searched it after reading your post. It certainly has changed.

Greg

501 to 550 of 556 << first < prev | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / "Trip-Locking Doesn't Work" - Official Ruling or Not? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.