shiktang's page

been trying Storium , making me interested in PbP, what websites does anyone think are outstanding and offer cool features, community, etc. i.e. are a good place to play by post? Any that offer an exceptional format for play? thx yo

There is something i really like about "how big is a small stone"
it's like how long is a piece of string. what's even better is there is a precise answer. wow 150 lb that is one painful small stone. and if there is a large Barbarian around i think i will consider a tactful withdrawal, and a tasteful retreat

shiktang wrote:

it seems that one of my posts was missing, i just wanted to say that i did do my test, (my group plays on line - so i could only use myself) i tripped myself over and over. and i couldn't tell if i was readied or Attacking out of Opportunity. results: inconclusive.

thnks

It would have been better to have one of the other posters(any of us) make a tripper for you to try to escape from.

that would be fun.

GW it was definatly option B, thanks.

when i hear house rules i see a group.....
GM: "you finally make it out of the mist, tired and loaded with the treasure of the mountain Giant-"
P1: "i'm not tired"
Gm: "it's just for effect"
P1: "i'm still not tired."
Gm: "ok, can i continue?"
P1: "so long as i am not tired."
P2: "you do smell though-"
Gm: "ok, you come out of the cloudy mist and you see a group of large red robed Quadrupeds running towards you fast, everyone make a knowledge religion check"

P1: "5"
P2: "i don't have any knowledge religion."
P3: " i rolled 15, do i know anything"
P4: "i got 6"
GM: "the cleric recognises the group as monks of Zon-Kuthon, a particularly nasty and sadistic order of zealous fighting monks"
"Roll initiative!"

it seems that one of my posts was missing, i just wanted to say that i did do my test, (my group plays on line - so i could only use myself) i tripped myself over and over. and i couldn't tell if i was readied or Attacking out of Opportunity. results: inconclusive.
thnks

Everyone knows what the rule is. What is now being debated is whether or not it makes sense.

actually that's what i don't understand, i will rest my poor bum for a moment and put my jokes aside, what is it that doesn't make sense? the rule was based on attacks of Opportunity being made prior to the action for game's sake and so the defender would be on the ground. there was a way to trip them with readied actions. so i don't understand what is being discussed? what doesn't make sense? the rules allow a repeated trip, just not through AoO's. are people discussing whether or not it will work in real life or in the game, if it is in the game then wasn't that fully proven and discussed already? and if it is in real life then what does it have to do with Pathfinder? and what would it mean to be trip locked in real life. woah this is getting too deep for me right now, i think i need to do some housework.

i do appreciate the sincerity of many of the posts. just don't understand what they are discussing anymore really. thanks for your guidance Wstrike.
i find it oddly enjoyable reading this thread, very enjoyable actually.

What is now being debated is whether or not it makes sense. I think the issue is that some are arguing from a balance point of view and other are coming from a realism point of view. Nobody will agree because these are things vary from group to group, and person to person.

Wraithstrike, yes,

in order to prove this one way or another:
i felt a bit hypocritical asking everyone to be risking injury without putting my own body in harms way, so i tested this trip lock out, my group is playing online at the moment making impossible to go through with the test (and the current GM is very tall, and is the kind to deduct xp, continuously, for being physically attacked by a player, he is very fair that way) so i tripped myself. ofcourse i had to adjust the experiment and the data may not be accurate because of the changes to the test (mainly that it now only has one person instead of potentially 4 or 5). i was hoping this would shed some light or prove if it was possible. so far the results are inconclusive. I certainly was tripped many times, and did not move very far, with all the changes to the test group it is hard be sure of these results, my test definitely proves that my test was inconclusive when using only one person. i was surprised to see that i spent most of my time prone, so ... maybe.

i hope that helps Greg, and thanks Dave you are helping to knock this question down.

i think what you need is Green goblins floating disc

@shiktang- Dang it, my group needs to find a better play area in order to work your suggested test. I still don't trust some of my players to actually use AoO's. I think they may sneak in some readied actions just to keep me down. Lack of trust always hurts a gaming session :(
Greg

Greg,

yes science is not easy, and it is often painful, the suggestion will likely cause alot of suffering for knowledge, and you may see me on the news: gamer sued by gamers.

but i'm willing to take that risk and put your bodies on the line.

and Finarin "Tripping is still a very effective maneuver so I'm a little confused why so many people defend this so arduously, especially when Jason has specifically clarified it."

i also can't sleep right at night or in the early afternoon as i ponder on why this post has spawned an undead thread a Dread Thread. i think the reason (the latest theory i have) is because of late 80's and early 90's computer games. all people are asking for is Mortal Kombat logic, to beable to triplock the defenders until they get to the big bad boss at the end and then they can trip lock the boss. without having to learn difficult special techniques or strategy. so that when the game is beaten then they can put their initials in the Top Score. ahhhh. that will feel good, or if they are playing their friends then they will have bragging rights.
that's all people are asking for, is that so terrible a request.
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and the more i think about it the more i think kipping up will cause an attack of opportunity, even if it is friar Jackie (though he would have a nice AC, they would need a 20 to attack him) and the Attack of Opportunity would not allow an actual trip as has been clarified being before the kip, so the cycle begins over.
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if people really want to keep a character down i think dirty trick would be the most frustrating, just throw a cream pie in their head, prone and pied, they will be blinded for a round, and a move action to remove the pie causing AoO, if only you could cream pie them again- just like trip that requires a readied cream pie. that way you would get two AoO if you had combat reflexes, standing and wiping. that's something i'd like to see: cream pie locking. Cream pie is not in the Pfcore, i don't think they would cost more than a copper, or if it is a gourmet version then it could cost up to 2 or 3 gold, if Heston made it (magical cream pie) it would be much more. i've been waiting but haven't seen anything yet, maybe they will come out in a supplement later: the Bard's Arsenal, or maybe Pies of Golarion. ahh but i digress.
fakes shist

It seems to be the general consensus around here that you can't make a trip attack-of-opportunity on a character who is standing up from prone.

Has this rule been clarified by the devs, or is this just a trend that the board seems mainly to agree with? If this rule has been confirmed by Jason or another dev, could someone direct me to the post? This could have a very significant impact on my games as one of my players is a HUGE fan of trip builds, and is (kind of) playing one now.

actually it would seem my previous post didn't understand the purpose of the thread, simple rule clarification. And in my admittance i would like to take a post to celebrate the question that started this all off. little did Garden Tool know when innocently asking if trip-locking had been ruled on what sensitive and volatile emotions lied underneath.

i thank you, the pathfinder playing community thanks you

if the results look like:
gm was tripped and prone 11 times in 10 rounds. 10 reapeats. all trips after the first looked like reaction.
then we know trip locking can work.

oooh ofcourse the tripper will need so do something else with their action so maybe they can cast a spell each round aswel.

if we get enough results from a range of groups then we will have sufficiently proven whether or not trip locking is real.

if not then sending it in to Mythbusters seems like the neutral good thing to do. then it will be hotly debated on their website even after the test.

I can see him stat'ed up as Monk (weapon master) using the Quarterstaff.

Greg

all right, now we're talking.

i think it is beginning to make sense why this post is still going after the official ruling long time ago, i don't even remember on what page it first appears.

it is because it is in the title "Trip-Locking Doesn't Work" - Official Ruling or Not?. it is setting out to prove that Trip locking doesn't work in real life, beyond the rules and way past the game. it is a martial arts question.

i think there is a way to resolve this:
live action roleplaying.
we will need all the pathfinder groups who would like to help to meet together and select a player (probably the player who most thinks trip-locking will be real) to spar the gm, who will only try and stand up if tripped and then do an action or move, and the player will only try and trip the gm. we will need a mat so no one is injured. a flannel shirt should suffice. and we will need another player to time the trips and make sure that two happen within the 1st round time (4-6 seconds i think) and one each subsequent round. and one more player to watch and see if the trips are reaction attacks or readied attacks (predicted), this will be very hard and the player will need to watch the tripper very carefully. all participants need to be voluntary and if under age need to have parental or guardian permission as we do not want to cause a friendship to be troubled or a family feud to begin, that is for a different combat maneuver. we will need about 10 or more tests for each role-playing group to make sure our results are accurate. for more realism you can dress in a character costume, a creature outfit, or just hold a plush toy, or have another player doing sound effects. when each team has its results they can begin to get them organised and put them on this post.

He is more of a cleric by the games standard.

what about his robe

Also this thread has me wondering the following...

Why does the monk not get the kip up ability?

that's interesting it might be a good idea to allow some kind of acrobatic standing up. at the moment you can use acrobatics to move through a threatened area while prone, it is a full round 5 ft. action and you are still prone.

moving while prone is 5 ft per move action (10 ft a round), theoretically you could move 5 ft then stand up provoking only one attack of opportunity while you move back because you are prone still, of course the opponent can just take a 5 ft step and trip you again.
if moving through a threatened area while prone acrobatic was a move action instead then you could do the whole thing without provoking an attack of opportunity effectively kipping up behind you.
still you would be only 10 ft away.
better than not being able to do it.

maybe they could extend the rule to allowing an acrobatic stand up without provoking attack of opportunity as a full round, standard action or move action. then you could effectively kip up.

yes.

I picture the monk as a Jet Li/Jackie Chan acrobatic style fighter. That is among the first things one learns in martial arts/acrobatics.

whatever happened to Friar tuck. :) he could be the inspiration for art on a kip up maneuver

this post is thread-locked.everyone hopes to get the last thread in and that's why it is going to be prone prolonged, not because of Attacks of Opportunity, nor because of readied actions, they ran out long time ago, it is because of grapple. you see the only way to legitimately keep a creature prone seems to be using readied actions as has been hinted at, what happened here is the prone creature didn't stand up, it grappled the tripper.

soon it will be it's own game.
i predict 1258 threads.

sounds cool,i like the character, dark and light.
i like to have a plan for attack and defence, i'm also playing a two weapon rogue. another way to get sneak attack is to feint (relying on bluff which you probably have a high rank in) in combat or to use dirty trick and blind the opponent, the only way i know to get two attacks with sneak attack is to flank, or to surprise the defender from stealth and use ranged attacks, you could also use bluff to cause a diversion and then hide. if the game involves allot of roleplaying aswel then diplomacy and other skills could be the key ones for the games, as it looks like the cleric may be the next character to have a high skill in roleplaying related things, the rogue gets alot more points to use.
thanks for the outline of the character .

also with such a high intelligence it might be good to take a wizard or witch for enough levels to become an arcane trickster.
also power attack is good for damage. you have allot of options.
the character i'm playing: the group was very generous with ability scores
http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=12355

only ten more to make 500.

why is there so much interest in keeping a defender on the ground, it is only a - 4 attack and AC (+4 to ranged), they can still attack and defend, it is just harder to move? also it makes sense that while a creature attacking gains the benefit of the defender having a penalty of -4 then they are still prone, still on the ground, if they didn't get the penalty they would be up. so the attack of opportunity must be when they are still prone. just as if they were attempting any action that would cause AoO the condition doesn't take place until after the AoO and then the action, attempting a bull rush the defender isn't moved until after the AoO and then after a successful action. and the time is very short, rounds are a number of seconds, the kind of tripping over and over that you see some expert judo masters do takes some time and is because they are anticipating the grounded defender will stand up and in what way they are going to stand up, in other words they are readying their action for when the defender is going to try and stand. in the Pathfinder round the defender is immediately trying to stand and the AoO is an instinctive reaction. it is very fast, maybe even within the same round.

only ten more to go, then this falls into a new class of posts. i wonder if we will be able to get it up there. it will get a standing ovation, what a trip it has taken us on.
...

context: after reading the rules for grapple and the message board it seems the interpretation of the rules is that a grappler receives -2(-4dex) to cmd for being grappled. and if pinning a defender then this is added to a loss of dex bonus for pinning (does this mean they effectively have a 6 dex?). the defender has a -2(-4dex) cmd for being grappled and if pinned this is replaced by a loss of dex bonus and a -4 to AC, which would reduce the cmd of the defender. on top of this there is the +5 for grappling a defender beyond the first round. so effectively the grappler has a +7 the second round (+5 to the controller and the penalty to dex for the defender)and +9 plus once they have the defender pinned (+5 to the controller and -4 ac + to the defender). is this correct? as i have not read an official interpretation i will use this as the common interpretation.

this would give the grappler more advantage to maintain the grapple, and strength is given more priority to dexterity in the grapple. this is likely to be realistic and also somewhat hard to continue calculating in some fast combat situations.

suggestion 1. for quick rules or for future pathfinder options the penalties to dexterity and AC for being grappled or pinned could be nullified between the grapplers, in other words they have no effect in the grapple itself, only making them easier to hit by ungrappled creatures. the penalties to movements and actions would still remain applicable, so there is still an advantage to pinning one's opponent.

this could be explained by imagining that a dexterous defender is slippery and able to move suddenly and in unexpected directions making their dexterity still applicable to the grappler as much as is their strength.

this way the only modifier to remember is the +5, until an ungrappled creature attacks the grappled creatures.

suggestion 2.

context: i do not see any rules for throwing creatures aside from throwing objects and improvised weapons, or for using creatures as weapons.

suggestion: add 4 new options to the grapple maneuver; lift, swing, swing attack, throw.

once a defender is grappled a grappler can attempt to lift the creature who is no more than their maximum load, and no larger then their size over head with a successful grapple check, the defender gets +4 to their cmb to escape the grapple while overhead. the grappler also loses their dexterity bonus to their ac as though the grappler was pinning the defender. the defender does not have the pinned condition.

swing: once a defender is grappled a grappler can attempt to swing a creature who is no more than twice their maximum load and no more than 1 size category larger around them. they swing at a rate of one full circle per round if the same size and no more than a heavy load, half a circle per round if one size category larger or more than their maximum load, and one and a half of a circle if one size category smaller or between medium load, and two full circles if a light load or two or more size categories smaller. grappler must have room to swing the defender, there must not be any object large enough or large enough creature occupying the threatened area to block the initiation of the swing. the grappler must have a 5ft radius clear to swing small and medium creatures or a ten foot radius for large creatures.

swing attack: once a grappler is swinging a defender the grappler may attempt an attack using the defender as an improvised weapon. the grappler may take a 5 ft step before or after this attack in the direction of the attack only. The grappler must first roll to maintain the grapple as usual and then makes a melee attack at -2 for a resisting weapon and -4 for being an improvised weapon (-6). Swinging large creatures threaten a 10ft radius. this attack is two handed, unless the swung creature is two size categories or more smaller than the grappler,when it can be made one-handed. a creature is not considered a proficient weapon even with the improvised weapon or throw anything feat, as they are unpredictable. this attack can either damage the creature being thrown or the creature being hit, not both. once the melee attack ends whether it hit or missed the defender gets a free escape attempt with a bonus of 4+damage dealt to their CMB or escape artist skill, if the attack misses then the grappler may continue swinging the creature next round as though they had already grappled the creature in the previous round. an attack that rolls a 1 automatically frees the defender from the grapple. for every circle the grappler has swung before the attack the grappler receives +1 to damage to a maximum of their constitution bonus (minimum 1). this attack can also be made as ranged attack with a range increment of 5 ft per half swing to a maximum increment distance of 5ft+5ft per constitution bonus (minimum 5 ft). this attack incurs all the penalties as mentioned above (-6) and bonuses (+1 damage). If the creature will be swung into a life threatening situation, such as over a cliff or into a fire then the defender receives a free escape check as per the MOVE maneuver in grapple, normal ranged attack does not count for being life threatening. again this attack can harm the swung defender or the defender hit.

Throw: once a grappler has lifted a defender a grappler may attempt to throw the defender as per the swing throw ranged attack (-6)except without the damage bonus and the range increment is 5ft per constitution bonus(min 5ft). the grappler can take a 5ft step before or after the throw in the direction of throwing. if this attack is life threatening, in any way other than a regular ranged attack, the defender gets a free escape attempt as per the MOVE maneuver and with the +4 for being overhead.

maybe the constitution could be strength for the throw manuever, or something like that. there is rules for damage in the hurler rage power in the Advanced players g.