| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay. It's a little(read: a LOT) sketchy, but here's what I have so far. A lot of it is taken from the Unearthed Arcana book, but I put my own spin on it. I will be incorporating either this or elements of this for masterwork armor in my campaign setting.
I did a little research into this and found out that modern and even a few older padded armors aren't as bad as the game makes them out to be. Several dozen layers stitched together is enough to stop shot and even low calibre bullets(although certainly not higher calibre stuff or rifle rounds), slashing weapons and even absorb some impact from baseball bats and such. However it is still the "worst" armor in the game, and as such should have a weakness, as noted in the Options.
Did a little more research on this and found that the mainstay of many a rogue really isn't as good as portrayed in the game. However, it was quite hard and could save lives, provided a sword wasn't razor-sharp.
I couldn't find much on this, but I did discover it was quite good against indirect sword blows and thrusts, so I figured that bludgeoning damage would be its weakness.
Everything I found on this was wrapped up in long, drawn out discussions on chainmail. From my limited experience with the stuff, it was surprisingly good against arrows and piercing weapons, almost catching it and holding it in its teeth, but occasionally leaving you a bad bruise, and something similar for bludgeoning weapons. I remember reading an excellent description of swords(or perhaps it was an axe) bursting the rings of chainmail quite readily. Optionally, since this really is little more than a shirt, with no greaves, helmet or gauntlets, you are really exposed in those areas and may not enjoy it's otherwise excellent protection with respect to critical hits. However, this is just my thinking, so YMMV.
I found a little info on Hide armor, but most of it seemed to revolve around how societies discovered other technologies and left Hide armor behind. I think of it akin to wearing an exceptionally well fitted and thick second skin, an organ which reacts quickly to being stabbed or sliced, but comparitively overreacts when bruised. Again, this is just my thinking- I'd like some of our doctors to give me their opinion on this.
This is another armor that was a lot more effective than the game(and this thread) makes it sound. It was exceptionally hard to penetrate when crafted by a master, and I think there are many examples of it that survived to present day that needed only a few plates on it replaced. Also, I needed an armor that would not fare well against piercing weapons, and since scale can have a chink in the armor if all of the scales are set up along horizontal OR vertical rows, I figured this was the best candidate. Still, give me feedback on this one, history buffs/minors/majors/professors.
As with chain shirt above, but with a helm, greaves, and other things that make sense for a full suit of armor. It would function against critical hits.
I'll be the first to admit I read way too much George R. R. Martin and History channel re-enactments. But to my mind, a warhammer or another bludgeoning weapon is the bane of plate armor, since it either crumples("Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died, my khaleesi.") or does a good job of redistributing the impact so that it rattles your molars about in your skull like roaches scatter when the kitchen light comes on. I'm sure I'll get a lot of outcry on that one, too, so give it to me.
I didn't find much on this one, but going by the description of splint mail being strips of metal wrapped up along a leather backing, I'm thinking a well placed arrow could find its way between the strips.
I could only find a wikipedia article on this, and even it argued over whether or not banded mail actually exists. Still, going on the picture, I'd have to say it'd do a good job of absorbing impact from an arrow if it hit the metal part, and the leather would do a good job of absorbing blows if it was treated right, but a well placed(not necessarily critically so) sword slash could undo someone wearing it.
Another hybrid armor, except in this case I think the chainmail aspect could catch rough bludgeoning blows well and the platemail part could keep away slashing blows, but since it is so piecemeal in a way similar to Banded mail but of better design/materials, piercing weapons could catch an exposed gap. But didn't I just say that Breastplate(above) was good against piercing armor and bad against bludgeoning? Looking at it that way, and considering this is the second "best" armor in the game and prohibitively expensive at 600 + (Masterwork fee*) gold, I decided to include the optional 3/- for DR instead of 3/Piercing. I briefly considered including a clause where this DR went down by one for every critical hit, but I decided against it, as it may be too much bookeeping for some. Thoughts on this?
Considered a necessity for Paladins and Fighters and the like and considered by many to be the "best" armor in the game, Full Plate is just what it says. Unfortunately due to my love of reading and watching TV, I gave it a weakness against bludgeoning- but you don't have to. Consider the Optional rule, and shout back at me as above.
And that's it. Any other armors out there? Please post them and/or get back to me on this.
|
Chain mail was specifically designed to stop slashing weapons...it's weakness was against piercing (they head just goes right through the links) and bludgeoning (conforms to you body and transfers all the kinetic energy of the blow). I would make chain items DR x piercing and make the first x damage from bludgeoning into subdual damage.
Nice system, Freehold. I like this.
|
Okay. It's a little(read: a LOT) sketchy, but...
Without reading the rest of the thread and therefore know little of what it's about, but strictly going off of what you wrote here...
1) On some of the lesser armors (leather? studded leather? padded?) you might want to consider it to only have resistance vs. one weapon type rather than two. So leather armor may only be good vs. slashing but piercing and/or bludgeoning could bypass it.
2) Would this be on top of any magical qualities? I ask mainly because...
3) This seems like quite a bit of extra bookkeeping and I'm not sure that the benefit is really worth it to try and keep track of it all. In fact, it might be easier and simpler to give a few bonus "temporary" hit points as long as they are wearing a certain kind of armor.
Keep in mind that my glass is usually "half empty".
Chain mail was specifically designed to stop slashing weapons...it's weakness was against piercing (they head just goes right through the links) and bludgeoning (conforms to you body and transfers all the kinetic energy of the blow). I would make chain items DR x piercing and make the first x damage from bludgeoning into subdual damage.
I see where you are coming from, but my experiences(which are quite rusty) show the opposite with respect to piercing- if multiple layers of chain are used(which I think they would be for masterwork) in an alternating pattern, it actually catches(not so much deflects) arrows resulting in little more than a welt or bruise for the wearer akin to what you get when you're shot with a bulletproof vest. From a game perspective(as I have no problem changing it personally), this would also kinda stack the deck in favor of slashing weapons with respect to this houserule.
1) On some of the lesser armors (leather? studded leather? padded?) you might want to consider it to only have resistance vs. one weapon type rather than two. So leather armor may only be good vs. slashing but piercing and/or bludgeoning could bypass it.
I thought about this too, but I thought that would truly be too much bookeeping and kinda "force" casual players to get the "better" armors. I decided to keep DR in those cases relatively low...I may actually switch one or two of them back to DR 1.
2) Would this be on top of any magical qualities? I ask mainly because...
3) This seems like quite a bit of extra bookkeeping and I'm not sure that the benefit is really worth it to try and keep track of it all. In fact, it might be easier and simpler to give a few bonus "temporary" hit points as long as they are wearing a certain kind of armor.
Keep in mind that my glass is usually "half empty".
2) I thought about this as well. For my homebrew, the answer is no- enchantments fundamentally change the nature of the armor. For this, I would put it up to the individual DM, although I'm starting to think that I should incorporate the "DR is reduced by one for every critical hit the person wearing it recieves" rule for nerfing purposes.
3) To an extent it is extra bookeeping(something that I have always thought should be the province of the DM, but that's just me), but I've been stuck on masterwork items for years- far too often in the imperfect game that is D&D the only purpose for masterwork items has been to enchant them. I wanted them to stand out more if not also have a little more bite, and while I may make a few alterations to these rules, I think I've succeeded here.
Temporary HP is something that I thought about as well, especially in the D&D 3.0/Final Fantasy Tactics days. I played a few games with it and found that it either extended combat to un-fun lengths, or shrank them to "Oh no! He critted me! RUN!!!!" sessions. This may just be the people I played with, though.
And don't feel bad about the half-empty thing. He who has a glass, still drinks.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Nice system, Freehold. I like this.
Thanks.
Oh my stars and garters...I forgot the SHIELDS...
A controvertial idea, even for me, Bucklers allow you to change the DR of your armor. I figured they were so good at protecting you without getting in the way, one could alter its positioning to provide better protection against certain types of attack even unconsciously.
Whether wooden or steel, light shields provide protection against everything.
Much like how tower shields provide total cover, these masterwork heavy shields allow one to take the partial cover action in the same way tower shields can let one take total cover. I did not include a DR for this because I thought it might be too powerful and to differentiate heavy shields from light ones, but I always thought that someone hiding behind a shield was an important part of the game that gets lost in the mechanics unless you're using a...
This is a little powerful when it comes to DR, but tower shields are..well..towers. It's going to provide excellent protection.
|
|
And don't feel bad about the half-empty thing.
I'm often asked "What do you think about XXXXXX?" The problem is that I often take that to mean either "What is wrong with XXXXXX?" or "What can be improved on XXXXXX?" when all they are really asking me to do is "Tell me that XXXXXX is teh RoXx0r."
Overall it really is a pretty good system. Not too much but still something more for having masterwork armor.
One other thought comes immediately to mind. Not having taken that close a look at some of the more technical aspects of the Pathfinder system ...
What about special materials? Will your reductions stack with special materials? Specifically Mithral and Adamantine, but I know that there were quite a number of splat books with special materials (especially Magic of Faerun) that had a large number of special materials that might need to be looked at.
Oh my stars and garters...I forgot the SHIELDS...
Buckler: DR change
A controvertial idea, even for me, Bucklers allow you to change the DR of your armor. I figured they were so good at protecting you without getting in the way, one could alter its positioning to provide better protection against certain types of attack even unconsciously.Shield, Light: DR 1/-
Whether wooden or steel, light shields provide protection against everything.Shield, Heavy: Partial Cover
Much like how tower shields provide total cover, these masterwork heavy shields allow one to take the partial cover action in the same way tower shields can let one take total cover. I did not include a DR for this because I thought it might be too powerful and to differentiate heavy shields from light ones, but I always thought that someone hiding behind a shield was an important part of the game that gets lost in the mechanics unless you're using a...Tower Shield: DR 2/-
This is a little powerful when it comes to DR, but tower shields are..well..towers. It's going to provide excellent protection.
This might just be me, but i have trouble giving shields DR... probably just the idea that thatd mean the shield absorbing impact, which is how it blocks attacks. My opinon is
Buckler: Keep this the same
Light shield: Either +1 AC or 10% miss chance for ranged attackers, since it's essentially a small wall between u and the projectile.
Heavy Shield: Either +2 AC or 20% miss chance vs. ranged attacks, since it's basically a larger version of the light shield.
Tower shield: I'm sorry if this rule is already in effect as I do not usually use tower shields and am AFB, but if using the cover action basically made you a piece of wall capable of granting partial or full cover to those adjacent to/behind you.
I have not tested any of these, I just had the ideas.
I don't know about you guys, but this is one of my methods for generating dungeon loot:
Pick a weapon/armor you don't see often. Roll on the magic armor/weapon table. Enjoy the sudden variety in equipment as players will begin using whatever odd stuff you throw into the dungeons.
They might not want to use a common scalemail... But what about a +1 Slick Scalemail?
I have a fighter who's probably going to enjoy picking up a +1 Vicious Scythe next session providing they defeat the owner.
I don't know about you guys, but this is one of my methods for generating dungeon loot:
Pick a weapon/armor you don't see often. Roll on the magic armor/weapon table. Enjoy the sudden variety in equipment as players will begin using whatever odd stuff you throw into the dungeons.
They might not want to use a common scalemail... But what about a +1 Slick Scalemail?
I have a fighter who's probably going to enjoy picking up a +1 Vicious Scythe next session providing they defeat the owner.
I actually have random tables I use to generate the equipment (using Arms & Equipment guide, odd components like darkwood or elven dark weave, etc). So you never know what you will find.
|
Okay about real armor...real armor is a pain in the arse to bypass to get the person underneath...hence why they were used. Funny thing about chainmail and test...almost all of them are using butted mail...which isn´t historical...the rest use poorly riveted and patterned armor. Why? Because properly made chainmail is EXTREMELY time intensive and costs a small fortune in this time and age. I made a few small squares for testing purposes and each 3x3 inch segment was about 10 hours of work. Anyways, testing properly made chainmail, attempts at slashing through is nigh useless...even with heavy chopping tools like axes. The weapon that did a very good job was the flanged mace...which has a habit of mulching a lot of armor actually. Works better then the warhammer actually.
Against plates or segments of plate, your stabbing at the not metal plate parts for the kill. Crushing the armor till they can´t move and then stabbing can work too...but ultimately your stabbing them.
Studded leather in all likeliness never existed. What people see as studded leather in old art works was most likely either a gambeson/jack/D&D padded armor...or small plate brigindine. I have made a small section of soft leather that has small plates of hardened leather to test out. It isn´t what D&D describes as studded leather, but what D&D describes as studded leather won´t work unless the studs are right next to each other...in which case it would weights a TON, is more time and material then better armor choices and doesn´t work very well. In anycase, the leather version of small plated brig that I tried out seems to work well. It is quite light, and resists cuts and stabs pretty well. Doesn´t do much against crushing damage as it lacks any mass and as I can´t have the small plates of leather overlap and lock up like with steel. This maybe a plausible studded leather historically. It´s light and effective...and back then would have been dirt cheap to make. Course no physical proof exists.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Studded leather in all likeliness never existed.
Any piece of leather armor I wear counts as studded.
Any piece of leather armor I wear counts as studded.
As in, "thoroughly pierced by small pieces of metal?" Ouch. Buy a Ring of Protection, stat!
...Studded leather in all likeliness never existed. What people see as studded leather in old art works was most likely either a gambeson/jack/D&D padded armor...or small plate brigindine...
Yes, quite right. Studded armor used the studs to reinforce the seams in roder to be able to keep even heavier padding in the right place. Studded armor usually consisted of (sometimes quilted) wool and linen.
Brigantine is most likely what D&D means with "Studded Leather". An armor sometimes made of leather (but usually of sturdy linen) to which on the inside metal plates are affixed so that only the studs are visible. Quite effective at a fraction of the cost of chainmail and platemail, but gets damaged real quick.
On to the system of damage reduction for armor:
If realism is your goal, then you've got the problem that the weapon types in D&D are not accurate. A sword can be a slashing and a piercing weapon. Indeed many bastardswords (who were historically called longswords) were tapered to a very fine point and using a diamond shaped blade as opposed to a fullered one, taking away just a bit slashing capability to add supreme piercing if used with one hand guiding the sword by holding it by the blade (called "half swording").
It is my experienced that to try and make D&D combat "more realistic" or "more historically accurate" you usually arrive rather fast at a point where you realize that this doesn't really add a lot to the game but instead just magnifies it's complexity and book keeping chores.
|
|
Brig and studded leather are separate armors if you include arms and equipment guide that lists brig as a pretty bad medium armor (despite the fact that a well made suit of small plate brig weights under 15 lbs). The distinction was there even in 2nd ed...so it´s not like it´s something new they learned if they followed the game at all.
I don't know about you guys, but this is one of my methods for generating dungeon loot:
Pick a weapon/armor you don't see often. Roll on the magic armor/weapon table. Enjoy the sudden variety in equipment as players will begin using whatever odd stuff you throw into the dungeons.
They might not want to use a common scalemail... But what about a +1 Slick Scalemail?
I have a fighter who's probably going to enjoy picking up a +1 Vicious Scythe next session providing they defeat the owner.
I wish my players had this attitude. Anything that doesn't fit their desired build exactly gets sold, regardless of how awesome the item might be by itself.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wish my players had this attitude. Anything that doesn't fit their desired build exactly gets sold, regardless of how awesome the item might be by itself.
Shopkeep: "Are you kidding me? I wouldn't give you a quarter of what you're asking for that! None of you adventurers ever buy magical scale mail!"
I wish my players had this attitude. Anything that doesn't fit their desired build exactly gets sold, regardless of how awesome the item might be by itself.Give out some cool magical, but unusual, items. When they try to sell it, offer them 1/3 value, since "Nobody want's something like that! There's no market!"
Then laugh as they debate as to whether they will take the 1/3 price or keep the item.
I play a little bit with the item purchasing rules, but I haven't messed with the selling rules (they'd probably still sell it, but whine more). Their current favored selling location is cosmopolitan enough that they can pretty much sell anything, though I penalize them for buying or selling in a rush.
The fighter kept a smoking bottle over the rest of the party's objections, which was amazingly useful (vs a ranged-focused enemy), but I also gave them a bunch of feather tokens, and they sold them all for pocket change. Last session a great opportunity to use the bird token came up and they got burned for selling it. I get the feeling they didn't learn their lesson, though.
I like the look of this, in principal at least. However, I'd add some changes:
Longswords - this weapon was originally designed to be effective at both cutting and thrusting, to get past armour - so it needs it's damage type changing to S/P. Makes it a much more popular choice in the process.
Composite Armours - one thing missed out is that almost all armour had a suit of padding as the base. Chain mail, for example, was padded armour with chain on top, which technically would give it two forms of DR. I also agree that the weakness of chain mail was to piercing, not slashing weapons.
Another thing I'd mention, I played in a game that used the "armour as DR" rules and we found it made AC almost irrelevant - until we stopped using stat bonuses to hit. Suddenly level and skill became valuable, and dexterity bonus very important in avoiding getting hit. The only reason strength bonus was added to hit in the original D&D was because it helped you penetrate armour, so it makes sense.
Thank you :)
This thread was referenced from another recently, and I couldn't resist commenting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Scale mail is great for prisoners.
Wizard or sorcerer? Huge spell failure, slower
Monk? is slower, can't flurry, can't tumble, can't evade
Druid? is now an expert
Cleric or Fighter? AC probably worse
Rogue? is slower, can't tumble, can't evade
Brigandine in Pathfinder exists under the name Kikko. which is a japanese version of the exact same armor.
I think splint mail is a form of brigandine as well - plates attached to a leather base.
Looks like everyone wears breatplates now.
It must be the new fad....
If by "new" you mean "setting in when 3.0 came around". I've a bit of hard time remembering when the last time a non-druid non-financially challenged character wore anything other than a mythral breastplate. It is the best compromise between offering protection and not hampering your character in any way. Extra +3 AC from fullplate just aren't worth the drawbacks. PF futher boosted the myhral breastplate by increasing its overall AC bonus (so the difference of 3 between it and fullplate is a little bit less meaningful) and offering a trait that can completely negate its armor check penalty, so you won't even need proficiency to wear it.
Oh, and by the way, if you looked at a realistic progression of armors it would look like padded/half-measures like breastplate+helm <- chaimail <- chainmail reinforced by small plates <- lamellar armor (what is called "scale" in PF) <- half-plate <- fullplate; with the last two offering a quantum leap in protection compared to anything before. Any sort of leather armor would be as exotic and poor as wood or bone or other sort of exotic armors (in the real life leather jackets almost never served as anything but undergarment for real armor, the armor of choice for footmen scum who couldn't afford expensive protection was gambeson/jack, known in DnD as padded armor).
|
|
Looks like everyone wears breatplates now.
It must be the new fad....
If by "new" you mean "setting in when 3.0 came around". I've a bit of hard time remembering when the last time a non-druid non-financially challenged character wore anything other than a mythral breastplate. It is the best compromise between offering protection and not hampering your character in any way. Extra +3 AC from fullplate just aren't worth the drawbacks. PF futher boosted the myhral breastplate by increasing its overall AC bonus (so the difference of 3 between it and fullplate is a little bit less meaningful) and offering a trait that can completely negate its armor check penalty, so you won't even need proficiency to wear it.
Oh, and by the way, if you looked at a realistic progression of armors it would look like padded/half-measures like breastplate+helm <- chaimail <- chainmail reinforced by small plates <- lamellar armor (what is called "scale" in PF) <- half-plate <- fullplate; with the last two offering a quantum leap in protection compared to anything before. Any sort of leather armor would be as exotic and poor as wood or bone or other sort of exotic armors (in the real life leather jackets almost never served as anything but undergarment for real armor, the armor of choice for footmen scum who couldn't afford expensive protection was gambeson/jack, known in DnD as padded armor).
Personally I'm a fan of celestial mail.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Use it to outfit your 50+ followers. The cost savings is great.
And I roll rather randomly for armor and weapons, so I sometimes see weird combos come up and laugh as I give it out as treasure.
"All right, who wants the Scimitar +2 and who gets the Longspear of Speed?"
This is the way to go: Give PCs random loot, emphasizing quality over quantity in so doing, make them depend on what they can find. There can and should be shops, but their wares should be limited, and custom orders beyond mediocre stuff should be out of the question UNLESS you're willing to seek out a great artisan - almost a PC-quality individual in their own right - to commission something from, and the process should be something of a quest in itself ("Yes, I am he who holds the knowledge of forging Pallidblight Armor, the Ebonsteel Crossbow-Ring, the Rune of Tk'l-tk'l-tk'l, and other such wonders, but my price is more than gold; in addition to the strange and exquisite materials you would need to supply me with, there is another, personal matter I would have your assistance with..."). Force players to evaluate treasure in ways beyond the numerical - certainly, try to make making decisions based solely on comparative gp value impossible. The economist mindset is anathema to everything RPGs stand for.
Well a severe lack of treasure in the Kingmaker campaign let me play my paladin with scale mail untill level 4. In fact technically my paladin still wears the scale mail although I now have enough money to get that Masterwork Full Plate.
Indeed a lack of acces to shops can simply force players to make do with what they have or find.
I play in a campaign that starts the party on a deserted island and that severely limits the possibilities of upgrading gear or obtaining goods.
A good GM doesn't flood his party with treasure and certainly doesn't allow the party to find anything whenever they want it. Challenge players and provide them with limited recources. That will force them to make choices they might not make when they are in shopper's heaven.
|
|
I've begun to think that armor and weapon tables should be replaced with build-your-own rules...
I really should sit down and brainstorm that idea out of my head one of these days.
It's been a while since I looked at it but I think this is what Legend does. A certain number of points you can spend on a weapons depending on if they're simple martial or exotic, including qualities like trip or disarm.
The game I was in a few years back had all those dragon armors as Scale. It worked in game.
Thank you :)
This thread was referenced from another recently, and I couldn't resist commenting.
Was that other thread this one?
How about...character concept. I wear scale mail because that's what my character prefers to wear. It's done for (shockers of shockers) Roleplaying reasons.
|
How about...character concept. I wear scale mail because that's what my character prefers to wear. It's done for (shockers of shockers) Roleplaying reasons.
Sorry - but that's foolish. By that logic you might never move more than 10ft a round because your character is lazy. You might never cast any spells but prestidigitation because your character likes the sparkles. Etc.
You shouldn't intentionally gimp your character to no purpose for 'roleplaying' reasons. There's no reason not to use a breastplate mechanically and scalemail from a fluff perspective.
Frankly - no one should use scalemail ever. Four Mirror Armor is both 5gp cheaper and +1AC.
|
|
Charon, that depends on the player's dex modifier. Or weight encumbrance. Four Mirror is 15 lbs heavier and has a max dex bonus of +2 while scale mail has a +3 max dex. That completely offsets the +1 armor bonus and has a better touch AC.
Fair enough - but all of my good dex characters start with a chain shirt, and all of my strength characters start with Four Mirror Armor. The difference only shows itself if you have a character starting with a +3 dex mod exactly and medium armor proficiency.
As to encumbrance - I don't think I've ever played a character who would ever wear medium armor without at least a strength of 14.
(And occasionally a person goes with a ranged Fighter. Have seen it. Right now, we have a ranged paladin... Not the norm, though!)
?
Ranged Fighters/Rangers/Paladins should have Strength too. Composite Longbows are literally the best.
|
|
(And occasionally a person goes with a ranged Fighter. Have seen it. Right now, we have a ranged paladin... Not the norm, though!)
Why would an archer have either a strength below 14 or a dex below 18? (At a dex of 18 you'd be better off with a chain shirt to start than scale.) The only characters with a strength below 14 should be casters, and some finesse builds such as swashbucklers/monks/some ninjas etc. The latter would virtually all start with at least an 18 dex though. (With slashing grace the finesse melee builds are more viable.)
As to loot - I always have a pack animal or 2 for such things when not playing Pathfinder Society.