UPDATE - Summoner


Round 2: Summoner and Witch

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Shadow Lodge

And all those really big things you really want but can't move from the dungeon? No longer a need for shrink item*.

*I have the strangest feeling I just made a lot of wizards and sorcerers angry... ;p


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
LazarX wrote:


I think the more effective and thematic approach is to eliminate armor and weapon use from the Eidolon. The Eidolon should be all about it's own powers, not an additional item rack for your spear weapons and armor. It's only sources of AC should be from the following:

1. Natural AC of base form

2. Natural Armor evolutions

3. Temporary spell buffs applied.

Similarly weapon evolutions could be used instead of allowing the Eidolon equipment use. it could start with a base weapon type and then further evolutions could add characteristics to that weapon.

If we eliminate ALL item use from the Eidolon, it goes back to it's thematic roots and we can put paid all this cursed item detection nonsense.

I think I would be ok with removing items from the eidelon...

...if there were 'item' evolutions to take their place. Say, for example, a 1 point evolution to add a '+1 weapon' to the eidelon. So, for example, the eidelon arrives already wielding a long sword appropriate to it's size. Then, allow it to 'scale up'. A 2 point weapon evolution that allows up to +3 but can only be taken at 5th level. A 3 point that allows up to +5 but can only be taken at 10th. A 4 point that allows up to +7 but only at 15th, and it scales at that point with level, up to +10 at 20th.

Do something similar with Natural Armor. Only, don't increase the AC, just allow the +'s to be used for armor bonuses. For example, 1 pt evolution that allows +1 at 4th level that only allows a +1 bonus (like fortification 25%). At 8th, allow +2 for 2. At 12th allow +3 for 3, and +4 at 16th for four (and auto-scale to +5 at 20th).

Let the fluff for the natural armor be it's scales, or full plate, or anything the make envisions. Same for the weapons. The idea is to allow the flexibility without making it a game breaker.

For magical items, go with, say, based off caster level. A 1 pt at 3rd level allows anything up to 5th caster level to be 'purchased' as an eidelon effect provided it doesn't duplicate existing evolutions. So, no belts or headbands (already an evolution). No amulet of mighty fists (already can be duplicated using evolutions). Want your eidelon to have a lenses of true sight? Fine, his eyes change and duplicate the magic item, now he has crystals over his eyes, or they are mirrored orbs, or whatever 'fluff' you want. I think that would solve, a lot neater, the issue with items (they are powers that the eidelon duplicates), and he just can't access magic items otherwise. His inherent magical body disrupts them (same logic that we use for why only two rings at a time can work despite having five fingers and why 2 items of +2 CON don't stack).


Selgard wrote:

hmm. non magical gear.

*eidolon wraps tentacles around huge statue*

*eidolon gets desummoned*

*summoner goes to town*

*summoner summons Eidolon*

*viola, town gets a new statue*

-S

Difference between his gear and things he is touching?

Dark Archive

Concerning the loss of the ability to wear armor, if you want your eidolon to be clad in armor just describe its natural armor bonus as such. The ghaele for example is described as wearing armor, although she only has a natural armor bonus to AC. The same could certainly apply to angelic eidola.
It should also be noted that while the eidolon no longer has the ability to wear armor, it certainly benefits from mage armor, a first level summoner spell. It will be probably hard to find a summoner of higher level without it.

Shadow Lodge

mdt wrote:
His inherent magical body disrupts them (same logic that we use for why only two rings at a time can work despite having five fingers and why 2 items of +2 CON don't stack).

Okay, this is how I am reading that, and I may very well be wrong.

Items don't stack. Magical items don't work with the Eidolon because it is magical.

So why can a sorcerer? They are inherently magical.

Shadow Lodge

xJoe3x wrote:
Selgard wrote:

hmm. non magical gear.

*eidolon wraps tentacles around huge statue*

*eidolon gets desummoned*

*summoner goes to town*

*summoner summons Eidolon*

*viola, town gets a new statue*

-S

Difference between his gear and things he is touching?

If you hold a rope, it's your gear. If you hold a statue? Same thing.


Dragonborn3 wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:
Selgard wrote:

hmm. non magical gear.

*eidolon wraps tentacles around huge statue*

*eidolon gets desummoned*

*summoner goes to town*

*summoner summons Eidolon*

*viola, town gets a new statue*

-S

Difference between his gear and things he is touching?
If you hold a rope, it's your gear. If you hold a statue? Same thing.

So when I am holding onto the door of the cell I am trapped in?

The house that I am holding onto so I don't get pulled away?

I don't think the because your holding something its your gear is right. I would certainly not treat it as such.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Dragonborn3 wrote:
mdt wrote:
His inherent magical body disrupts them (same logic that we use for why only two rings at a time can work despite having five fingers and why 2 items of +2 CON don't stack).

Okay, this is how I am reading that, and I may very well be wrong.

Items don't stack. Magical items don't work with the Eidolon because it is magical.

So why can a sorcerer? They are inherently magical.

A sorcerer is a mortal being who has magic inherent in his body, but he is not primarily a magical creation. The eidelon is a spirit being who has taken on a physical form to interact with the real world. That body is entirely magical, much more magical than the sorcerer's body. A sorcerer doesn't show up on a detect magic spell because he's a corporeal being infused with magic. An Eidelon however, would be a giant glowing beacon of magic on detect magic, because his physical body is just a magical construct to hold his essence.


Thraxus wrote:


Honestly, the problem is that an NPC summoner opponent could nova his most powerful summons under the original rules.

And how is this different from any other caster?

How many summons do you think that the summoner will be able to get off in a fight??

If you're talking getting arbitrary prep time then any decent NPC will be exponentially stronger for that.

-James


I was thinking about summon monster duration. Some people tend to think that min/lvl is too long. I would say the absolute lowest it should go is 4rounds/level, double that of a conjurer. Some suggested 1-3rounds/lvl +cha mod, but this quickly falls behind. Personally I would not even be interested in the class unless the min/level was restored.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Hey there folks,

Wow, that was a lot of posts over the weekend. I want to take a moment to clear up some things.

1. This is a playtest. These are not the final forms of these classes. In some cases, there will be significant changes. In others, the changes will be more subtle. The changes I made to the summoner and his eidolon do not represent the final version of the class. They are a test to see how things work with the listed changes in place. This sort of flexibility is what makes this playtest work. Lets all keep that in perspective.

2. Lets keep the discontentment over theme in check please. As of a week ago, nobody knew anything about the theme of this class. As with the rules, it too is in a state of flux. I doubt it will shift much, but if the mechanics change a bit here and there, the fluff might need to as well. The fluff I threw in with the changes were also nothing more than a test balloon.

3. As mentioned in the first post, this thread is not for posting up other alternate rules or changes to the class. There has been a fair amount of that here and I would request that you put such ideas in their own threads.

That is all for now.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


I think it would be better if we could choose to wear the armor or having the natural armor progression.

Wizards could use their familiars for scout for ages but I rarely see then doing so, I guess the 1 min/lvl would just make the players run for the next fight before the time expires, I don't really see it been used for utility, but the +CHA bonus to the duration people are talking about seens lika a very good sugestion.

The "3. Restricting the summon ability to 1 at a time." is a good call, but if you consider a 4 combat/day game he will rarely spent all his SLA (very rarely) once he gets around level 6.

<removing suggestions as Jason suggested :P>


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
james maissen wrote:
Thraxus wrote:


Honestly, the problem is that an NPC summoner opponent could nova his most powerful summons under the original rules.

And how is this different from any other caster?

How many summons do you think that the summoner will be able to get off in a fight??

If you're talking getting arbitrary prep time then any decent NPC will be exponentially stronger for that.

-James

A ticked off 5th level druid could probably get off a six to nine summons, even assuming they didn't have a wand of summon nature's ally. A ticked off conjurer specialist wizard could pop off the same number of summon monster's. Sorcerer at 5th could get off a dozen (granted, only I and IIs' though). It just depends on the situation. If the bbeg has a good defensive position, popping them out is not only safe but a very good thing to do. A dozen or so monsters could really put the hurt on a group, even lower CR ones (opportunities to flank, etc). It works really really well if the summoner can pop out some ranged attacking summons.


james maissen wrote:
Thraxus wrote:


Honestly, the problem is that an NPC summoner opponent could nova his most powerful summons under the original rules.

And how is this different from any other caster?

How many summons do you think that the summoner will be able to get off in a fight??

If you're talking getting arbitrary prep time then any decent NPC will be exponentially stronger for that.

-James

Under the original rules, the summoner required a standard action with double duration compared to a one round casting time (creature appeared at the beginning of the next round) used by everyone else. Additionally, other spellcasters use their limited spell slots to summon (and the shorter duration of those summons prevents a great deal of placing monsters early). A summoner got the SLAs and, if needed, their spell slots.

Again, my original complaint was due to extra creatures draining resources and NOT providing XPs for the difficulty. For example, a 3rd level summoner (Charisma 14) BBEG with two rounds of advanced warning could add 2 fiendish hyenas, 2 fiendish wolves, or 2 small elementals to his defenses against a party of 1st level characters (a 3rd level NPC is a fair end boss to a 1st level adventure).

That effectively makes it a CR 4 or 5 encounter (epic) but only the summoner (CR 2) provides any XPs. A 3rd level conjurer doing the same trick would likely be down to a single 2nd level spell remaining. The summoner still has his spells and 3 summons.

So, as it stands, I support cutting the summoner's power some. With more playtest data, I might be proven wrong. I hope I am. But right now, most of the focus is from the player side. I would like to see some data from the GM side too.

Edited for spelling.

Dark Archive

Like a lot of the other people here I totally agree with the Eidolon not being able to wear armour, I hadn't thought of that possibility until someone else mentioned it actually. I thought of the Eidolon as more self-contained, like a summoned creature in itself without needing items.

However I also agree that nerfing the summon ability seems like overkill. I would personally prefer to see the extended duration be kept, though the changed summoning time and one monster limit seems okay to me. I think one or the other would be fine, but not all of them.

Just my two cents, unfortunately I haven't had the chance to playtest yet.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Also wanting to throw this in there, I agree that Eidolons don't "need" armor, but instead of restricting it, consider not allowing the summoner to "evolution" away the need for the proficiency. A high AC doesn't necissarily break the creature, but the ability to spend two of 26 evolution points to gain any armor proficiency is kinda crazy.

Also, I would consider either reducing the Evolution points gained, or possibly increasing the cost of some of the other evolutions.

The SLA is alright in my opinion, because honestly, other than the Eidolon, it's all the summoner has, and as a Wizard player, it's pretty easy to kill something like an Eidolon. Keeping it to 1 SLA at a time is cool, but the reduced casting time, and increased duration was honestly a bigger draw to me than the Eidolon.

If I may also ask, Jason, what was the reasoning for the armor/weapon proficiencies for the Summoner? I always envisioned a summoner with a robe and staff...

Also, Eidolon question: I understand that the Eidolon speaks whatever the summoner speaks, but does Linguistics work the same for Eidolons?


The Eidolon changes I can agree with, limiting the summoner to 1 creature I don't. There is nothing in the rules now from keeping a 5th level wizard from taking summon monster II and 2 summon monster I spells and using those spells to put a small army out on the battle field. The whole point of the summoner is that he is going to start bringing in allies could be 1, could be 5 it shouldn't matter. If they are going to do that then they need to completly reword the summon monster spells to say that you can only have one summoned monster spell in effect at any one time. Which totally nerfs the spell.

The Exchange

Hadesblade wrote:
The Eidolon changes I can agree with, limiting the summoner to 1 creature I don't. There is nothing in the rules now from keeping a 5th level wizard from taking summon monster II and 2 summon monster I spells and using those spells to put a small army out on the battle field. The whole point of the summoner is that he is going to start bringing in allies could be 1, could be 5 it shouldn't matter. If they are going to do that then they need to completly reword the summon monster spells to say that you can only have one summoned monster spell in effect at any one time. Which totally nerfs the spell.

I agree. Going back to the regular spell durations and maybe instead adding a free Extend ability to SM spells usable x/day is a better way to deal with the summoning ability.

Dark Archive

I was really interested when i heard a summoner was going to come, and even more excited when i saw the summoner. After reading around 60-80 different posts. I have become very discouraged.

It seems all the problems are in "rounds" that don't usually even exist in PFS. Most combats are sprung up on you and you do not have time to precast an army. Frankly if you do, I think the GM could easily rework the scenario a little to stop that. In NPC cases i would hope the GM would use summons just enough to make it difficult for the party. Not to mention by the time you would be a level where you can summon 1d4+1, if you are summoning them, Those creatures are generally to weak even with augmented summoning to do anything effective in a battle field. No Summoner would bother wasting their round doing such an act.

So my confusion lies in the following:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Rules Changes

In addition to the above language, the following changes are made to the summoner.

- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as a standard action and the creatures remain for 1 minute per level (instead of 1 round per level).

- Add the following sentence to the Summon Monster I class feature: The summoner can have no more than 1 summon monster or gate spell in play at one time using this ability. If an additional ssummon monster or gate spell is cast using this ability, the first one immediately ends.

- Delete the Armor Training evolution.

With these rules changes on his summoning ability, Your Druid and Wizard summoners are better summoners than the Summoner Class. Present a problem?

I have not looked much into the Eidolon, because if i wanted a badass companion i would play a druid. It seems reading many of the posts on these boards that most of the "power gaming" and brokeness comes from their companions not their summoning ability.

While i absolutely love the idea of this class, between these discussions and the rule changes... it seems that it is slowly becomming a way to play whatever style character you want, through the Elidon and less of an actual summoner... If you're going to have a "summoner" should it not be better than wizards and druids in summoning specifically? As for all the hypothetical situations that it can be overpowered in, perhaps that's where a good GM differs from a bad one? In controlling those situations...

Maybe I am just completely confused. Who knows?

Grand Lodge

xJoe3x wrote:
I just don't think its right that a summoner is worse with summoning than a conjurer speced wizard.

I agree. I've been trying to keep up with the posts and it seems Jason's vision of the class is now diluted because of hypothetical examples on how players will abuse the class and its abilities. Sorry to say this all, but any and every class, feat, spell and ability has the potential to get abused by players who game in this fashion. I've seen it many, many times. We can't mitigate every imaginable play situation at every table world-wide and we shouldn't try. I suggest we give Jason a moment to use his good judgement to decide if these hypothetical situations give grounds to tanking a great class. If creating a specialized wizard character is better at summoning than the summoner character there's no need to include the class in the APG. In fact, I'll be bold enough to say everyone should take a step back and try it again. I'd like to see a great class included in the APG not a mediocre one that'll get ignored.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Rene Ayala wrote:
xJoe3x wrote:
I just don't think its right that a summoner is worse with summoning than a conjurer speced wizard.
I agree. I've been trying to keep up with the posts and it seems Jason's vision of the class is now diluted because of hypothetical examples on how players will abuse the class and its abilities. Sorry to say this all, but any and every class, feat, spell and ability has the potential to get abused by players who game in this fashion. I've seen it many, many times. We can't mitigate every imaginable play situation at every table world-wide and we shouldn't try. I suggest we give Jason a moment to use his good judgement to decide if these hypothetical situations give grounds to tanking a great class. If creating a specialized wizard character is better at summoning than the summoner character there's no need to include the class in the APG. In fact, I'll be bold enough to say everyone should take a step back and try it again. I'd like to see a great class included in the APG not a mediocre one that'll get ignored.

Completely agreed!


One thing that I feel I should point out, with several people worrying that the summoner is 'handicapped' by only being able to use his summon monster SLA, I've played a completely focused summoner via conjurer (as well as a summon focused cleric) in 3.5, and I can completely verify that such a player isn't spending his character's turns pumping out summon after summon. He throws out a single summon, two if he feels it's absolutely necessary, and then goes to town doing other things in combat.

The Summoner, the base class, only needs one of it's SLA summon monsters out at a time, it can just as easily spontaneously cast one from it's spell list if it needs to supplement the SLA summon if he feels it necessary.

In my summoner playtest I haven't been able to try the armor change yet, because armor is a big part of my Eidolon's theme, but I have tried the summoning change.

The number? No problem, it's functional and avoids the army nova concern some people have pointed out.

But the casting time has been killing me. It's CRUCIAL to a character that is going to focus on summoning to be able to get their creatures on the field the turn they cast and let the creatures be able to start acting immediately. In 3.5, that meant either Rapid Summoning variant class feature for Conjurers, or divine metamagic rapid spell for clerics. (Admittedly druids had methods of making their summons so absurdly powerful they could afford to eat the casting time)

Honestly, throwing out a rare summon in a tactical situation when needed? Sure, eat the casting time, but for a class that uses summons as a part of it's theme? Please, NO. I can assure you, if those spells were restricted to a full round action, I would do everything in my power to find a feat or something to let me do something else with those SLA's, (Maybe 3.5's arcane strike or something) but I would NOT be wasting my time summoning regularly when it's just going to get me smacked, the spell lost, and the party killed.

I know I've launched into a huge diatribe on here, and I'm sorry guys, but one more thing.

I really miss the longer durations on the sla's. For the first time in my experience with summoning spells I was actually able to use them for versatile purposes, like summoning a spider to snag an item on a pillar, and running through an Indiana Jones style temple after activating the death trap and retrieving the treasure, with the spider dropping webs and covering our retreat.

What a game!

I miss that :(


^^^^ kyrt, i agree 100%. perhaps we should let the summoner sit and chill for a few, and not powergame our selves out of a really cool class; maybe then we can figure out why the starting witch hexes are so terrible : )


I don't have an issue with the changes to armor and the ilk. In some initial work the potential for game breaking ACs became obvious.

The summon changes I do have an issue with. While I can grudgingly admit that the ability had the potential to be too powerful, I take issue with the three nerfs together. The shorter duration alone should be enough to solve the majority of the potential problems that others suggested (like massed summoning then steamrolling an entire adventure site). Combined with the 1 summon at a time and full round action this is a kiss of death on summoning for this class. They aren't just as bad as wizard, they are actually worse, because if they need more than one monster they can't have it. This is particularly troublesome when one of the major elements of summoning monsters has always been putting them on the board in noticeable numbers, given that they are individually significantly weaker than any foe you will face.

I'd offer a suggested compromise, but you've asked us not to do so here Instead I'll be starting another thread promptly on the matter.

Shadow Lodge

kyrt-ryder wrote:
*greatness*

+2


I think Summoner is overpower if you compare whith other classes.
The Eidolon or/and the sumoner should have a inferior progression.

Sumoner: d6 and poor BA.

or/and

Eidolon:medium BA, d8 or inferior and less Hds.

A 7th summoner now = A (5th fighter + 5 Sorcerer) or better.
Eidolon is a fighter that can ressurect every day with full HP.....

That is my opinion.

------
Leo

Shadow Lodge

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

A 7th summoner now = A (5th fighter + 5 Sorcerer) or better.

Eidolon is a fighter that can ressurect every day with full HP.....

That is my opinion.

------
Leo

Ah, but while an Eidolon can get a high AC and to-hit, what about all the stuff a fighter(or for that matter, a ranger, barbarian, or paladin) can do that the Eidolon can't? Fighters have an entire feat tree devoted to disrupting spellcasting. Not to mention a myriad of other feats they can choose from to do things no other class can.

Sure, an Eidolon is a mighty beatstick, but what about the person wielding it? Hit them with enervation, Vampiric Touch, Fireball, heck even Stinking Cloud can hurt them. While the Eidolon deals with the enemy's front-line fighters, archers and spell casters get free pick about who/what the target.

Sczarni

Eidolons tend to have crappy will saves, one save or suck and they´re gone. Which makes the magic items clarification the more important (no wis enhancing or resistance items)

Dark Archive

Frerezar wrote:
Eidolons tend to have crappy will saves, one save or suck and they´re gone. Which makes the magic items clarification the more important (no wis enhancing or resistance items)

Only the Quadruped form has truly crap will. And some will based save or sucks won't affect it because its an outsider.

Plug here of a better way to handle items. Not so much the duplicating Summoners items that was discussed but the points based purchase of everything.
Here.

Edit: Thank you link faerie. Also, I hate stuff...

The Exchange

YuenglingDragon wrote:
Frerezar wrote:
Eidolons tend to have crappy will saves, one save or suck and they´re gone. Which makes the magic items clarification the more important (no wis enhancing or resistance items)

Only the Quadruped form has truly crap will. And some will based save or sucks won't affect it because its an outsider.

Plug here of a better way to handle items. Not so much the duplicating Summoners items that was discussed but the points based purchase of everything.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/alternateWayOfHandlingEquipmentOnEid elons

Oh lookie! The Link Fairie has blessed your post with a tittering of magical fixification! Lucky you.


Thraxus wrote:


Again, my original complaint was due to extra creatures draining resources and NOT providing XPs for the difficulty. For example, a 3rd level summoner (Charisma 14) BBEG with two rounds of advanced warning could add 2 fiendish hyenas, 2 fiendish wolves, or 2 small elementals to his defenses against a party of 1st level characters (a 3rd level NPC is a fair end boss to a 1st level adventure).

That effectively makes it a CR 4 or 5 encounter (epic) but only the summoner (CR 2) provides any XPs. A 3rd level conjurer doing the same trick would likely be down to a single 2nd level spell remaining. The summoner still has his spells and 3 summons.

So, as it stands, I support cutting the summoner's power some. With more playtest data, I might be proven wrong. I hope I am. But right now, most of the focus is from the player side. I would like to see some data from the GM side too.

I think you will want to edit the cleric, the wizard and the druid as they can all do this.

Your complaint isn't the summoner class as I read it, but summoning in general.

In a combat a PC class used by an NPC is *extremely* unlikely to run out of all it's resources as it gains levels. If you give the bad guys time to prep and take several rounds worth of actions in advance of the PCs then of course they are going to have a severe advantage.

But that has nothing to do with the summoner class anymore than any other class that can summon.

With the current changes the class is basically a bard summoner in a world of wizard conjurers and druid spontaneous summoners.

-James


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

I think Summoner is overpower if you compare whith other classes.

The Eidolon or/and the sumoner should have a inferior progression.

Sumoner: d6 and poor BA.

or/and

Eidolon:medium BA, d8 or inferior and less Hds.

A 7th summoner now = A (5th fighter + 5 Sorcerer) or better.
Eidolon is a fighter that can ressurect every day with full HP.....

That is my opinion.

------
Leo

Well with the range of summon monster being a short range spell that means the summone is going to have to get close to combat like within a move or double move of the enemy. He is not a class that is going to sit back and rain death down from afar. He is meant to be up close to the action. That being said he better be able to endure 4 or 5 rounds of combat and better have good support from his Eidolon. So people complaining that it is to over powered are not seeing the whole picture. I think the level was totally fine as written the Eidolon is no better or worse in the long run then a druids animal companion.

Grand Lodge

I find myself agreeing with LazarX on this one although it pains me to say it. Item usage is very much like the polymorph problem (although a little less crazy) in that with each new monster created polymorph became more powerful.

There may well be a solution to the no equipment at all route though. What if the summoner had access to a unique list of spells that armed and armored his eidolon. A spell line like summon armaments that would conjure a single weapon from a specified list (or specified cost range) or a single suit of armor, shield, or misc magic item that only the eidolon could use. As the spell line increases more powerful times can be summoned but at a cost of spell slots for the summoner. You could even specify a broader range of summon spells (one for each item slot) so the choice becomes more of an issue for the summoners limited spell selection.


Hadesblade wrote:


Well with the range of summon monster being a short range spell that means the summone is going to have to get close to combat like within a move or double move of the enemy. He is not a class that is going to sit back and rain death down from afar. He is meant to be up close to the action. That being said he better be able to endure 4 or 5 rounds of combat and better have good support from his Eidolon. So people complaining that it is to over powered are not seeing the whole picture. I think the level was totally fine as written the Eidolon is no better or worse in the long run then a druids animal companion.

Ok, but you can´t summon other animal companion in a minute or build your animal companion attributes and abilities. Eidolon is a class feature a little over than others and need some corrections.

Dark Archive

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Hadesblade wrote:


Well with the range of summon monster being a short range spell that means the summone is going to have to get close to combat like within a move or double move of the enemy. He is not a class that is going to sit back and rain death down from afar. He is meant to be up close to the action. That being said he better be able to endure 4 or 5 rounds of combat and better have good support from his Eidolon. So people complaining that it is to over powered are not seeing the whole picture. I think the level was totally fine as written the Eidolon is no better or worse in the long run then a druids animal companion.
Ok, but you can´t summon other animal companion in a minute or build your animal companion attributes and abilities. Eidolon is a class feature a little over than others and need some corrections.

Animal companion is not as good as an eidolon. But it isn't supposed to be. The main feature of the Summoner is the Eidolon. The main feature of the Druid is not the animal companion. Thus the Eidolon should be more powerful than the animal companion.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Hadesblade wrote:


Well with the range of summon monster being a short range spell that means the summone is going to have to get close to combat like within a move or double move of the enemy. He is not a class that is going to sit back and rain death down from afar. He is meant to be up close to the action. That being said he better be able to endure 4 or 5 rounds of combat and better have good support from his Eidolon. So people complaining that it is to over powered are not seeing the whole picture. I think the level was totally fine as written the Eidolon is no better or worse in the long run then a druids animal companion.
Ok, but you can´t summon other animal companion in a minute or build your animal companion attributes and abilities. Eidolon is a class feature a little over than others and need some corrections.

English please?


Peter Stewart wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Hadesblade wrote:


Well with the range of summon monster being a short range spell that means the summone is going to have to get close to combat like within a move or double move of the enemy. He is not a class that is going to sit back and rain death down from afar. He is meant to be up close to the action. That being said he better be able to endure 4 or 5 rounds of combat and better have good support from his Eidolon. So people complaining that it is to over powered are not seeing the whole picture. I think the level was totally fine as written the Eidolon is no better or worse in the long run then a druids animal companion.
Ok, but you can´t summon other animal companion in a minute or build your animal companion attributes and abilities. Eidolon is a class feature a little over than others and need some corrections.
English please?

I´m brazilian, my english is bad...hehehe

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Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
Hadesblade wrote:


Well with the range of summon monster being a short range spell that means the summone is going to have to get close to combat like within a move or double move of the enemy. He is not a class that is going to sit back and rain death down from afar. He is meant to be up close to the action. That being said he better be able to endure 4 or 5 rounds of combat and better have good support from his Eidolon. So people complaining that it is to over powered are not seeing the whole picture. I think the level was totally fine as written the Eidolon is no better or worse in the long run then a druids animal companion.
Ok, but you can´t summon other animal companion in a minute or build your animal companion attributes and abilities. Eidolon is a class feature a little over than others and need some corrections.
English please?
I´m brazilian, my english is bad...hehehe

Better than my Portuguese : )


Some feedback from my group:

- We drew up a gnome summoner at lvl 1, 7, 13, and 20. His Eidolon was a quadruped.

- At 1st lvl, we threw 2 zombies and 3 skeleton archers at him.Summoner and eidolon put up a decent fight, taking out one zombie and beating up the other, but some lucky rolls from the archers took out the eidolon and severely injured the summoner, forcing him to use his summon monster I to summon a riding dog, mount up, and flee. Fight took about 3 rounds.

- At 7th lvl, the summoner faced off a mounted level 8 human paladin specializing in tripping. At this point, eidolon had improved damage to both bite and claws, rend, grab, and improved natural armor. Fight took much longer, but the summoner definitely put up a fight. At this point, we forgot about the standard action casting time for the summon monster class feature, so we were treating it exactly as the spell. We feel that the eidolon was dealing moderately good damage, and the grab and rend evolutions helped out quite a bit. Summoner took advantage of the greater invisibility spell to move around and buff the eidolon and summoned creature. The summoner had to use life link to prevent the eidolon from dissipating. In the end, the summoner won, with half his HP left, and the eidolon was down to 1 HP. The summoned dire wolf did nothing except provide flanking bonus.

- At 13th lvl, we had 2 trolls against the summoner. We miscalculated as this was a much lesser challenge than initially thought. Although the trolls did about 40 points of damage on the eidolon, the eidolon still had 90 HP left (and the summoner had over 100 HP at full health). The eidolon made short work of the trolls, having the large and huge evolutions, pumping his Strength to 36. Bite and claws attack bonus were +25 and +23 respectively. Damage for both reached to 1d10+13. With a CMB of +23, the eidolon automatically grabbed and rended the trolls. Summoner chose the flight evolution for his aspect, so was safe in the air. He summoned a t-rex for fun. Fight was over in a couple of rounds.

We'll be running a better CR 13 encounter later. We haven't tested out a lvl 20 summoner yet.

Overall, we felt the summoner was pretty durable, barring lucky rolls. We can easily see him in a tanking role or support role. The eidolon was pretty tough, but not unbeatable, and the summoner's spells provide a lot of great support.

As to the updated changes, we don't feel it really affects this summoner build. We had no armor on the eidolon, and forgot about the standard action casting time. Fights also didn't go on long enough to the 1 round/level duration to hinder us. We also didn't bother summoning more than one creature.

The way we see it, the summon monster class feature is simply a bonus spell that has a better progression than the spell, and that can be cast several times per day.

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Draeke Raefel wrote:


Animal companion is not as good as an eidolon. But it isn't supposed to be. The main feature of the Summoner is the Eidolon. The main feature of the Druid is not the animal companion. Thus the Eidolon should be more powerful than the animal companion.

I always considered (even after reading the summoner) the main class feature of a summoner, to be its summons, not its companion. Maybe its just me but if the main focus of a class is its companion, not the actual class. Perhaps the class needs a different name, or even just take the eidolon make it a race and give it class levels. Does not sound like the summoner is a summoner anymore based on this forums... heh


Dags wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:


Animal companion is not as good as an eidolon. But it isn't supposed to be. The main feature of the Summoner is the Eidolon. The main feature of the Druid is not the animal companion. Thus the Eidolon should be more powerful than the animal companion.
I always considered (even after reading the summoner) the main class feature of a summoner, to be its summons, not its companion. Maybe its just me but if the main focus of a class is its companion, not the actual class. Perhaps the class needs a different name, or even just take the eidolon make it a race and give it class levels. Does not sound like the summoner is a summoner anymore based on this forums... heh

I agree, but I would consider the eidolon part of the main focus of the class. That focus being summoning. That does not mean the rest of that focus should be ignored. The summoner should be better than any other class that can summon.

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Dags wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:


Animal companion is not as good as an eidolon. But it isn't supposed to be. The main feature of the Summoner is the Eidolon. The main feature of the Druid is not the animal companion. Thus the Eidolon should be more powerful than the animal companion.
I always considered (even after reading the summoner) the main class feature of a summoner, to be its summons, not its companion. Maybe its just me but if the main focus of a class is its companion, not the actual class. Perhaps the class needs a different name, or even just take the eidolon make it a race and give it class levels. Does not sound like the summoner is a summoner anymore based on this forums... heh

*shrug* Jason has said that what he was going for was a very pet-centric class. The Summoner definitely fits. Sure his summon Monster SLAs help make him feel more like a Summoner( pre-update at least ), but that still doesn't make him the center of attention. When playing a Summoner type character the Summons are always going to take center stage. Kind of the "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" kind of thing.


Draeke Raefel wrote:
Dags wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:


Animal companion is not as good as an eidolon. But it isn't supposed to be. The main feature of the Summoner is the Eidolon. The main feature of the Druid is not the animal companion. Thus the Eidolon should be more powerful than the animal companion.
I always considered (even after reading the summoner) the main class feature of a summoner, to be its summons, not its companion. Maybe its just me but if the main focus of a class is its companion, not the actual class. Perhaps the class needs a different name, or even just take the eidolon make it a race and give it class levels. Does not sound like the summoner is a summoner anymore based on this forums... heh
*shrug* Jason has said that what he was going for was a very pet-centric class. The Summoner definitely fits. Sure his summon Monster SLAs help make him feel more like a Summoner, but that still doesn't make him the center of attention. When playing a Summoner type character the Summons are always going to take center stage. Kind of the "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" kind of thing.

I would not be like that. My summoner would be more like "look at the crazy powerful being that I summon and bend to my whims, so you can take fireball and shove it..."


People keep comparing summoner to Druid trying to prove the summoner is overpowered. I don't think they have seen a Druid used to its full might. When you factor in the druid with his companion he is very strong.

9th level Druid with ape animal companion

Ape 9th level

24
18
14
3
12
7

AC:26 9+9nat+4 dex+4 chain shirt

Feat
light armor
combat reflexes
weapon prof guisarme 20' Reach +13/+8 2d6+10 trip
weapon Prof heavy flail 10' reach +13/+8 2d8+10 can trip and disarm
bite:10' reach +13 1d6+10

Skills
Acrobatics:4+3+4=11
Linguistics 1 Understands common and can write it

now animal growth-ed

32 str
16 dex
18 con
3
12
7

ac:27

guisarme 30' Reach +17/+12 3d6+16 can trip
weapon Prof heavy flail 15' reach +17/+12 3d8+16 can trip and disarm
Bite 15' reach +17 1d6+16

so round one Druid turns into a Earth elemental and earth glides under the ground and begins buffing his companion with animal growth and summoning friends since he is under the ground casting with natural spell not much you can do about it. After you are beat down a little he may cast a flame strike on you or if you really piss him off he will wait for his animal companion to trip you then come out and shift into a large giant octopus and attack you 9 times the following round.


I tried the Summoner out last night with a few friends, at various levels against various foes and as part of a few different party make ups.

First off, I agree that the Eidolon is better off not being able to wear armor. Allowing it to wear armor in addition to its natural armor bonuses results in rediculously high armor classes, to the point that it was outshining the Fighter and the Paladin in some cases.

As for the other change to the Summon Monster Spell-like Ability, we found that the original wording was better, for the most part. Allowing the summon spells to go off as a standard action made a big difference in allowing the Summoner to matter more in the combat, instead of just being an appendage to the Eidolon. The min/level duration was probably the most important feature to keep, because it allowed the summoner to use his summons to make up for the lack of versatility in his spell list, enabling him to use summoned monsters in a wide variety of non-combat situations. As for the limitation of only one spell active at a time... the Summoner rarely ended up summoning more than one time in a combat, so the point was largely moot, though combined with the min/level it did lead to abuse in one particular scenario (a huge wolf pack was summoned and used to completely rout an entire village of NPCs- they were pretty much all 1st level commoners, but you get the idea).

I would be OK with the limit of one summoning spell-like ability active at any given time, but the standard action summoning and the min/level duration are essential to the concept as I see it and to giving the Summoner a degree of out-of-combat versatility.


I'd just like to get my 2cp in on the changes.

We test played the summoner over the weekend with a few different forms of Eidolons. My solution would be to either remove the humanoid form altogether or simply not allow them to use any magic items.

As for the SLA changes, the shortened duration makes it less useful at very low levels but that's also when the Eidolon shines most so it's a tradeoff. I do wish the casting time was changed back to a standard action. That's the worst thing about summoning spells - 1 round casting time. The one summon at a time is a good change even though we'd already decided to house rule that if it went live as is.

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Draeke Raefel wrote:


*shrug* Jason has said that what he was going for was a very pet-centric class. The Summoner definitely fits. Sure his summon Monster SLAs help make him feel more like a Summoner( pre-update at least ), but that still doesn't make him the center of attention. When playing a Summoner type character the Summons are always going to take center stage. Kind of the "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" kind of thing.

You do have a very interesting point in the companion, I did not look at it like that before. I still think the 1 spell like ability of summon monster is ruined by only allowing 1. I undestand you can cast other summon monsters from spells, but they still takes a full round action the way i am reading it. The standard action seems to only apply to the summoners spell like ability. Not his spells. So his summons are really no special feature still.

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Dags wrote:
Draeke Raefel wrote:


*shrug* Jason has said that what he was going for was a very pet-centric class. The Summoner definitely fits. Sure his summon Monster SLAs help make him feel more like a Summoner( pre-update at least ), but that still doesn't make him the center of attention. When playing a Summoner type character the Summons are always going to take center stage. Kind of the "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" kind of thing.
You do have a very interesting point in the companion, I did not look at it like that before. I still think the 1 spell like ability of summon monster is ruined by only allowing 1. I undestand you can cast other summon monsters from spells, but they still takes a full round action the way i am reading it. The standard action seems to only apply to the summoners spell like ability. Not his spells. So his summons are really no special feature still.

The SLA was changed. It now behaves exactly like the spell except you can only have 1 active casting of it at a time. ( in other words, it also has a full round casting time )

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Draeke Raefel wrote:


The SLA was changed. It now behaves exactly like the spell except you can only have 1 active casting of it at a time. ( in other words, it also has a full round casting time )

So then a summoner, other than its companion and lack of spell selection, is no different than any other arcane caster... Whats the point of the class if you you don't want to role-play a custom creature? The originality of it has been stripped by hypothetical power gamed situations (IMO, unrealistic) down to a restricted arcane druid...

Except a wizard can summon more at a time.

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