Honestly,
A lot of issues that seem to come up come up when someone builds an unbalanced eidelon. That is, someone puts all their points into Offense (Tentacles & Energy Attack) or Defense (Natural Armor + Worn Armor).
I think a lot of issues could be addressed by some limitations on the # of attacks. That is, if the Eidelon can only have X attacks maximum at a given level (Say no more than (Level/2) + 2) then you'd take care of a lot of the acidic tentacle monster from beyond builds that seem to be used as examples of 'OMG Summoner Broken!'. Same with AC, drop the AC progression to 1/2 level (+1 at 2nd, +2 at 4th, +10 at 20th), increase the natural armor bonus evolution, and then allow whatever equipment that can be purchased based on form. It gives bipeds an advantage, yes, but the other forms have their advantages too, and can still get barding. Makes it so you can still splurge your cash on the eidelon, but even so, it's not that bad.
Honestly I really really like this class. It does need some tweaks for rebalancing, but I'm sure Jason has already seen that, and I'm sure he'll come out with something that gets the original flavor and still allows reasonable builds.
If not, I'll just house rule the heck out of the class. :)
It's not that people are building "unbalanced" Eidolons. I think of the problems associated with it could be toned down with a slight drop in strength for one evolution.
Yes, having a lot of natural weapons is crazy, but it does less damage and is less worth going a*$~*&% on it without that large evolution giving +8 strength.
And no, I'm not complaining that it's more powerful than other classes. If you'd read my post, I'm claiming that as a summoned monster, something the class revolves around, it's like being able to summon a slightly hp reduced Monster of a CR equal to your level +1. And no other class can do that. It's unique, but the nail that sticks out sometimes should be hit the hardest, and considering they don't have to expend any resources to get this good buddy all day...
Besides, having high AC is unnecessary when you've got a nice spell like displacement or Friend Shield on, let alone both. :)
It's not that people are building "unbalanced" Eidolons. I think of the problems associated with it could be toned down with a slight drop in strength for one evolution.
Yes, having a lot of natural weapons is crazy, but it does less damage and is less worth going a*+!&+& on it without that large evolution giving +8 strength.
I don't think I agree, not with some of the builds I've seen. At level 10, you could have an Eidelon that had :
1 bite & 1 Tailslap or 2 claws or 1 bite
+1d6 Energy Damage with each attack
Increased Damage with all Tentacles
11 Tentacle attacks
It would do 1d6+1 (or 2 or 3, depending on base form) + 1d6 Energy per tentacle attack. That's 3-13 damage (or 5-15) per tentacle, average 8 (or 10) per attack, times 11 attacks is 88 (or 110) damage per round. Not including the other base attacks (which do an extra 2 per attack being primary attacks due to extra strength damage). So that's an extra, say, 25 pts of damage. So at level 10 the eidelon is spamming 110 to 140 pts of damage, on average, per round, without buffs. Now, that does much less damage against anything with DR, obviously, but anything without dr is just slaughtered at that level. Basically being stung to death. And the Eidelon has about a +12 to hit (could be +15 depending on base form) on it's primaries, and +10 on it's secondaries. If you put it on a quadraped and give up 2 tentacles, you can get pounce, which allows all those attacks on a charge.
It can really get overpowered if all the points are spent on nothing but attack. The same for defense, if you spend everything on defense (boost natural armor, dex boosts, etc), you can get him up to where nobody can hit him. That's less of a problem because he's not doing damage usually, so just kill the summoner. But attack spams are overmuch, and need to be limited. My preference would be limiting the # of attacks based on level.
Hey there all,
I have been going through a great deal of playtest feedback and speculation over the past few days. It has become obvious to me that there needs to be a few adjustments made to the summoner for balance reasons. Although I would not say that these changes are final, from this point onward, they are part of the class for playtesting purposes (this includes the Pathfinder Society Organized Play). I need to implement these changes to get a bit more productive feedback, since the issue seems to be skewing results a bit too heavily.
Feel free to post comments and feedback concerning this rules change in this thread, but leave other issued out of this discussion please.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Eidolons are limited in the amount of gear and equipment they can use. Their forms tend to shift over time, making certain types of gear impossible to use properly. Eidolons with the proper training and the limbs (arms) evolution can wield weapons. They suffer the normal penalties for wielding more than one weapon, regardless of the number of arms they possess. Eidolons cannot wear armor, due to their shifting form, but those that take the proper feat can use a shield. Eidolons can use some magic items. Each eidolon can wear up to two rings, if it has the limbs (arms) evolution. Each eidolon can wear a single magic item in the following slots: eyes, head, neck, and shoulders. An eidolon with the limbs (arms) evolution or the tentacle evolution can drink potions.Any magic items possessed by the eidolon fall to the ground when the eidolon is sent back to its home plane, regardless of the reason. If this includes cursed items, the items immediately return to the eidolon when it is summoned again.
In addition to the above language, the following changes are made to the summoner.- Delete the sentence from the Summon Monster I class feature that reads: He can cast this spell as a...
Egad, that's alot of posts to sift through! I caught on late unfortunately, and though I agree with the removal os the evolution that allows armor and shields, can we instead have the Eidolon pick up the feat for weapons (simple, martial, exotic), armor proficiencies (light, medium, heavy), and shield proficiency?
Thanks! aaand please don' smite me, I'm still catching up if this has already been covered.
It's not that people are building "unbalanced" Eidolons. I think of the problems associated with it could be toned down with a slight drop in strength for one evolution.
Yes, having a lot of natural weapons is crazy, but it does less damage and is less worth going a$!&&*$ on it without that large evolution giving +8 strength.
I don't think I agree, not with some of the builds I've seen. At level 10, you could have an Eidelon that had :
1 bite & 1 Tailslap or 2 claws or 1 bite
+1d6 Energy Damage with each attack
Increased Damage with all Tentacles
11 Tentacle attacksIt would do 1d6+1 (or 2 or 3, depending on base form) + 1d6 Energy per tentacle attack. That's 3-13 damage (or 5-15) per tentacle, average 8 (or 10) per attack, times 11 attacks is 88 (or 110) damage per round. Not including the other base attacks (which do an extra 2 per attack being primary attacks due to extra strength damage). So that's an extra, say, 25 pts of damage. So at level 10 the eidelon is spamming 110 to 140 pts of damage, on average, per round, without buffs. Now, that does much less damage against anything with DR, obviously, but anything without dr is just slaughtered at that level. Basically being stung to death. And the Eidelon has about a +12 to hit (could be +15 depending on base form) on it's primaries, and +10 on it's secondaries. If you put it on a quadraped and give up 2 tentacles, you can get pounce, which allows all those attacks on a charge.
It can really get overpowered if all the points are spent on nothing but attack. The same for defense, if you spend everything on defense (boost natural armor, dex boosts, etc), you can get him up to where nobody can hit him. That's less of a problem because he's not doing damage usually, so just kill the summoner. But attack spams are overmuch, and need to be limited. My preference would be limiting the # of attacks based on level.
Energy damage is a horse of a different color. I still don't think it should apply to all of a creature's natural weapons. I mean, it's like buying a weapon enhancement for two to four weapons for two points, which is ridiculous. Even a basic Eidolon at level eight with four attacks and rend was just pushed over the edge with that extra d6. I do think limiting attacks per level is a good plan as well. Maybe multiple restrictions on the Eidolon may become necessary to prevent beatdown Eidolon from abusing all the monsters in its path, I'm just not sure what they would be, mathematically speaking.
At this point, I'm ready to just say dump energy damage or limit it to two weapons per buy. It doesn't add much flavor from what I've seen, and it just begs to be broken in half by tentacle monsters from the great beyond. Even if they have DR, they'd better have resistance to the element you're pumping into them, or they still take at least 1d6 per attack, letting them get around having to care about the whole "secondary weapons" thing.
I definitely agree on one thing though: limitations need to be put into place somewhere. Point buy is something very easy to break if you have no reason to put points into other stuff besides your specialty. Having played a lot of GURPS and some Mutants and Masterminds, I'm very used to point-buy. Both of those games have built-in limiters. M&M has limits based on Power Level. GURPS just makes it pointless to get a skill past 25, Will over 16, and having 30 Speed is pointless in a game where everyone has 6.5.
I'd prefer the M&M solution: Some kind of a numeric guard bar that says "no more". It may be crude, but it's effective.
I can see a lot of weird mechanics occurring with the Eidolon though. I love point-buy systems, but Pathfinder is pretty different.
Egad, that's alot of posts to sift through! I caught on late unfortunately, and though I agree with the removal os the evolution that allows armor and shields, can we instead have the Eidolon pick up the feat for weapons (simple, martial, exotic), armor proficiencies (light, medium, heavy), and shield proficiency?Thanks! aaand please don' smite me, I'm still catching up if this has already been covered.
*puts away his smiting hammer* Very well, since you asked so nicely.
Yup perfectly fine to do so, provided they meet the prerequisites. It does require a lot more investment than 1-2 EP though, which I personally think is more balanced.
Quick question, and no offense or disrepect to anyone intended:
Why would a summoner willingly dismiss his eidolon?
If you figure it takes a while to build a decent eidolon, and you design it to be combat ready either to fight for you, or to watch your back, but you can only summon it once per day, and at that it takes a full minute to summon, why would you ever willingly dismiss it? It becomes useless for combat since by the time you get it there, the combat is usually over, and from what I read, there is no penalty for having it around, meaning it costs you nothing to have it there all the time. So why ever dismiss it?
I'm looking for a serious answer, folks. Just wondering if I missed something in the current rules regarding if it needs to retreat to heal, or if the summoner loses spell power or energy or something while the eidolon is around, or anything like that.
Why would a summoner willingly dismiss his eidolon?
Let's say your eidolon looks something like a Havero (PF#10) or aboleth. Peoples' reaction to you walking that into town is going to be .... less than ideal. Also, especially for a Huge sized creature, it may be impossible to fit it through an area that you have to pass through and there may be no space to dimension door it next to you for 100 feet, at which point it starts losing max hit points.
To reinforce that point:
The most common reason to dismiss the Eidolon voluntarily is that you cannot summon an Eidolon that was "killed" for 24 hours from the time it was "slain", while you can resummon an otherwise-dismissed Eidolon at any time. So, if your Eidolon just got its butt whipped and you had to use Life Link to save it, it's advantageous to dismiss it and resummon after the combat is over. This prevents it from being a drain on your own hit points and/or being removed from play for 24 hours.
To reinforce that point:
The most common reason to dismiss the Eidolon voluntarily is that you cannot summon an Eidolon that was "killed" for 24 hours from the time it was "slain", while you can resummon an otherwise-dismissed Eidolon at any time. So, if your Eidolon just got its butt whipped and you had to use Life Link to save it, it's advantageous to dismiss it and resummon after the combat is over. This prevents it from being a drain on your own hit points and/or being removed from play for 24 hours.
Valid point, thank you, although "at any time" isn't quite accurate since you can still only do it once per day. Hmmm...Maybe instead of giving the summoner the ability to cast SLA summon monster x+Cha times per day, they should give him Summon Eidolon x+Cha times per day and have the eidolon linger for 1 hour per level instead ( was going to say minute as per the currect SLA, but hour makes better sense for those quadrupeds used as steeds).
As for the "tight spaces", wouldn't the summoner's ability at higher level allow him to step around that by calling the eidolon to him once he gets to the other side, as it were, since that is kind of a teleport thing?
The eidolon as a whole is fine - even the large and huge evolutions are. In the end, if you choose to make your eidolon huge, you are trading a power-up for the ability to use him constantly. Unless you go on adventure in the land of giants, your eidolon, when huge, simply is NOT going to fit in most places. The same thing applies to a lesser extent to a large eidolon.
The crux of the problem is the absence of a limitation to the number of natural attacks that can be taken. As previously exposed, already at level ten you can have an eidolon that deals an insane amount of damage, and it only gets worse if you buff him with greater magic fang, bull's strength and heroism.
What the developers need to work on is a cap on the number of natural attacks the eidolon can have. It should be related to the summoner's CL.
One spell makes it capable of fitting into smaller spaces (besides squeezing, I figure I'm the only one who knows about those rules though) with relative ease. Reduce person! And it's 1st level! Oh, but you lose a whole size of weapons and 2 strength, but it's better than nothing, you're right.
And that spell lets huge eidolons squeeze into areas big enough for medium creatures. Losing their now back to normal dex when doing so and taking a penalty to attacks. Not too hard of a work-around.
The natural attacks do get out of control, though, absolutely. Does anyone remember the carrion crawler? The monster that, if you ran it, you ran it once? 10 foot (maybe 15, I'm a bit fuzzy) reach with six attacks that dealt no damage but paralyzed. Give it two attacks, like the ghoul, and it's not so bad. But six? That's guaranteed one party member drooling. And guarantees are not so exciting or fun.
I dunno. I just think all the natural attacks aren't so bad, but reducing the damage/strength overall would get to the root of the problem. I made a grappling Eidolon with the serpentine base, and it could obliterate a single monster of its CR. Like, three bites a round and you have to blow a standard action and roll a 19 or 20 to get out of its grapple if you're a fire giant. And that's the lowest strength base eidolon with one +2 boost to strength, made large. Admittedly, he is specialized, but the +8 to strength really makes him unstoppable. At high level, grappling big stuff is useless, so he goes multiple natural attacks like everyone else. He's not crippled by my proposed adjustment, but he doesn't solo fire giants consistently either (His limit is around three, though, provided they don't get wise and start chucking boulders at their grappled buddy).
I think that both solutions are good, though. Honestly, a Shoggoth (CR 19) only has four attacks that deal 3d6 +15 with a double threat range, how many freaking natural attacks should your ephemeral clay puppet buddy have? 30? I playtested a group fighting against a level 8 summoner with an eidolon with four attacks, each dealing 3d6+9. I didn't even have to use its rend ability, it tore through the fighter and rouges and everything like paper mache. And that's PART of a CR 7 encounter.
Grammar Mistake - probably noted elsewhere but there's a sentence that reads: "He cannot select the ability increase evolution through this ability."
Energy damage is a horse of a different color. I still don't think it should apply to all of a creature's natural weapons. I mean, it's like buying a weapon enhancement for two to four weapons for two points, which is ridiculous. Even a basic Eidolon at level eight with four attacks and rend was just pushed over the edge with that extra d6. I do think limiting attacks per level is a good plan as well. Maybe multiple restrictions on the Eidolon may become necessary to prevent beatdown Eidolon from abusing all the monsters in its path, I'm just not sure what they would be, mathematically speaking.
At this point, I'm ready to just say dump energy damage or limit it to two weapons per buy. It doesn't add much flavor from what I've seen, and it just begs to be broken in half by tentacle monsters from the great beyond. Even if they have DR, they'd better have resistance to the element you're pumping into them, or they still take at least 1d6 per attack, letting them get around having to care about the whole "secondary weapons" thing.
It's not that bad, and can fit the concept, as long as the person is min/maxing attacks. I have a player who made a green dragon eidelon and took energy (acid) as an evolution. His dragon drips acid from his mouth and claws. Makes thematic sense, and isn't overpowered (notice though that his eidelon has 3 attacks). Honestly, I think it could be fixed by limiting it to one type of attack (fluff wise that would make more sense). So say, 1 pt for 1 attack, 2 pts for 1 type of attack (bite, claws, sting, tentacle, etc), and 4 pts for all attacks.
Honestly tentacles could be fixed by making them do subdual damage, just like a person punching. Then you would buy a sting on each tentacle to do lethal damage.
I definitely agree on one thing though: limitations need to be put into place somewhere. Point buy is something very easy to break if you have no reason to put points into other stuff besides your specialty. Having played a lot of GURPS and some Mutants and Masterminds, I'm very used to point-buy. Both of those games have built-in limiters. M&M has limits based on Power Level. GURPS just makes it pointless to get a skill past 25, Will over 16, and having 30 Speed is pointless in a game where everyone has 6.5.I'd prefer the M&M solution: Some kind of a numeric guard bar that says "no more". It may be crude, but it's effective.
I can see a lot of weird mechanics occurring with the Eidolon though. I love point-buy systems, but Pathfinder is pretty different.
Agreed, I've played lots of GURPS myself. The point build systems need some sort of balancing rules, otherwise you get people who spend all their points on dex or str or one stat and are super good at that and suck at everything else.
So I've read a lot of posts, I've read the class and am playing/testing summoner. Love the concept, I love the idea of more or less designing your own personal pet.
People are going on about power/balance one class over the other and I'm not trying to slam those that are, I understand the urge to have that. But there is one thing I have learned in my time playing D&D 2nd-ed - 3.5 and now finally with a DM besides myself interested in running it Pathfinder and, and in several other RPGs. There is no such thing as Balance in D&D some classes are better in certain or multiple situations than others, especially when you factor in equipment and monster abilities/resistances.
That said when I read the change about not wearing armor it really took nothing away from the class for me, my average AC for a melee PC level 5ish ranges from 19-22 without magic items, the (Duh)Melee Eidolon that I designed has a 19 AC, when I buff him with Mage Armor he gets a 23, not to far off there. Level 20 minimum AC is 34 on quadruped, no size changes, no caster buffs, and no evolutions in Natural AC or Ability scores.
Many of my PC's I never bother boosting any higher than that range anyways, depends on the concept I'm going for and honestly figuring in wealth you can only do so much under normal standards for any given level. Don't get me wrong, I have my share of PC's that are beyond the normal wealth Cap for their level for any number of reasons and I have Maxed them out in just about every fashion, making them near impossible to hit for anything in their normal CR range, but that's far and in-between.
Damage, I love being able to do damage, but sometimes I think it can really take away from the game. I have several PC's that have so many attacks and do so much damage...heaven forbid if they crit, that I end up asking the GM for the AC at the beginning of the encounter so that I can have all my attacks and damage rolls added up by the time it gets to my init, and then rise recycle repeat, and I end up missing all the interesting stuff that the rest of the party is describing their PC's doing. I ended up bringing my graphing calculator to one game because I could keep all the damage tracked on the screen more easily that way.
Honestly I think that the magic items can be removed as well though I haven't had a chance to test it beyond level 5 yet, I prefer to decide the power level of a class by playing it over time. As for magical weapons *Shrug* if it can wield them and you have the money to provide them I say sure. I'd rather spend the money on buffing my PC, and use evolution to make my pet nastier I see lots of 1st - 20th+ level potential for this class/pet.
I play D&D as much for the Role-play as I do the Roll-play doesn't matter to me weather I do the most damage, just that I can participate. I designed my pet to fit my character concept, I'm a gnome that has been living in the desert for a long time, he chose a form that fitted that environment, a Scorpion like creature, I designed an exotic saddle for it and can ride it, as well as using craft engineering to design a turret-style mounting for a heavy crossbow. I plan on taking mounted archery so I can have a decent attack of my own, thinking rapid reload would be a good one to take as well.
Summon monster SLA, love the extra little boost there class isn't supposed to be about that ability but the SLA makes it so you don't have to waist known spell slots on that spell chain, and can focus more on the support your pet and the party aspect of the class.
As for the changing the casting time, I think it could go back to the way it was, or allow a feat that allows you to quicken it.
Limiting it to one casting at a time, no problems there, should be fine, if you need the extra summons that badly put them on your spell lists.
Duration, I think that leaving it at 1 minute/cl isn't ridiculous, or reducing it to 1 minute/2cl even, I've never had a combat that lasted more than 10-15 rounds, and after that in most cases the summoned creature should be gone before the next encounter.
I've never played a caster that took summon spells at low level because before 5th level the duration of the spell is to short to be worth-while for something that only works for 1 round and looses it's effectiveness when you get to higher levels. At low level I take spells like burning hands or Magic Missile that are more effective even at 10th level and higher Magic Missile is great for those hard to reach/hit mobs even with the lower damage 5d4+5 or 10-25 damage no save vs. even a fireball at level 10, 10d6 or 10-60 damage, save for half 5-30 damage, or none with evasion.
Anyway that's my 2c sorry to ramble, sorry for the massive post, and for the run-on sentences and bad grammar. I still will play this class even with the changes made, and more than likely even if they stay when the final release drops.
Spider - Halfling Rog4,GldThi4,Sor6,AcT10
I think the SLA should be stackable but it should work exactly like the summon monster spell. You get a dozen summons at the top level but each one is a full round cast and only lasts 1r/level.
The pet should not be able to use any weapons. If you want him to use long swords then make an evolution to turn a limb into an appropriate weapon ala Sword Archon.
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I think the SLA should be stackable but it should work exactly like the summon monster spell. You get a dozen summons at the top level but each one is a full round cast and only lasts 1r/level.
The pet should not be able to use any weapons. If you want him to use long swords then make an evolution to turn a limb into an appropriate weapon ala Sword Archon.
Except you're already spending evolution points to give the creature the ability to wield weapons. Add in the fact the creature has to get its gear from you, and that's wealth you could have spent on yourself.
I think opportunity costs balance out here.
The Eidolon is a terrible idea open to incredible amounts of abuse. I would drop the entire table. Instead let the Summoner have a mutable familiar.
The summoner uses any of his summon monster abilities and applies the familiar abilities table. The summoned monster does not expire at the end of the spell's duration. Each day the summoner may choose a new form for his familiar.
This gives us a decent familiar that automatically scales with level. Also since it is a familiar there are penalties for sacrificing it in combat. Namely you must pay to reinvoke it and you are without it for a week.
Let them have multiple standard action summons and let augment summoning apply.
Now we have predictable summons and plenty of flexibility. The pet becomes the best summoned creature in the game without being completely out of step with the powers of other characters.
Today I want my familiar to be a cheetah, tomorrow a horse and when we go to sea he becomes a shark. Higher levels I would go with invisible stalker for walking around town and a Roc when we need to do some traveling.
Level 1 he calls up a fire beetle with a +1 Natural armor 6 Int Alertness, Improved evasion, share spells and empathic link.
At top levels the familiar has +10 Natural armor and a 15 int. That is pretty good when you add that to a Trumpet archon or ice devil.
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I'd prefer if the Eidolon lost armor, got to use simple weapons(either through spending evo points or a feat), and you could change the base forms each level(by spending 1 or more evo points).
I'd also like the Summoner to have his SLA 1 minute/level back, but with the restriction of only having one at a time. He may still use his spells to summon.
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I'm sort of discussing an idea I had about the SLA in another thread, so I'll reprint it here in what seems like the main update thread:
I think it would be interesting if the SLA were converted to a mechanic similar to a ki pool, where the summoner would get 1 use per day per level + their CHA mod.
As the summoner levels up, they'll learn abilities that would allow them to spend extra summons per day to enhance what they can summon.
As an example:
+1 summon:
1: increase the duration of the summon to minutes, instead of rounds.
2: decrease the casting time from a full round action to a standard action.
3: cast the summon with a buff spell of choice already cast on the summoned critter(s).
+2 summon:
1: Increase the duration of the summon to 10 minutes/lvl
2: Decrease casting time from full round to a move equivalent action.
These are just a few options I can think of, there could be more. They would function very similarly to metamagic feats, in that they would restrict the highest level of summon spell the summoner could call up. So a 9th level summoner, who can use their SLA as Summon Monster 5, would be restricted to summon monster 4 if they add a +1 level modification to their summons.
Alternately, you could restrict the maximum number of "summons" uses a summoner could use at one time. Perhaps the summoner could cast a summon with up to an extra +1 mod every three levels, so at level three they could start enhancing their SLA at the cost of burning up summons per day a little faster.
Anyway, I think this is a kind of cool idea, and might be a good way to distinguish a summoner further from a plain conjurer, other than having a nifty Eidolon pet.
Get rid of the eidelon? That would kill the class for me, and a lot of others I'm sure. The eidelon does have some room for abuse, but so does every class. There are some balance issues that need to be addressed (limiting the number of attacks by level would be a great start, from my playtesting. An eidelon at level 9 with only 3-4 attacks is not in anyway unbalanced).
Also, I'm going to start going back to the 1 min/level on the SLA (but still one at a time) and see how that playtests. I don't think it'll make a combat difference, but should give some abilities out of combat.
I don't say get rid of the pet just use the rules already in place. The eidelon becomes a summoned creature with the familiar template.
It would be infinitely changeable and would automatically scale with level.
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I don't say get rid of the pet just use the rules already in place. The eidelon becomes a summoned creature with the familiar template.
It would be infinitely changeable and would automatically scale with level.
Meh, that kills it for me. I'm not even playing a summoner right now, but I like the Eidelon idea. Just needs a little tweaking to balance the power out for the multi attack thing.
Another idea is to make the summoner into a changeling.
The eidelon is the summoner's war form. As a swift action they transform into or out of the eidelon form. Any weapons or armor become part of the creature unless they have taken the armor and weapon enhancements.
This way you still have the crazy powerful killing machine but if he dies you die.
As it stands now EVERYONE want's to play the summoner because they are completely over powered. My entire group will all take summoners and the leadership feat. Each player takes a different cohort to make up for the spells they lack. A bard, rogue, cleric, and druid all 2 levels less than the party just there to be skill monkeys and help buff the swarm of pets.
Man the eidelon or the summoner is not gonna change that much at this point. It will be modified and balanced but not a total rewrite at this point
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Another idea is to make the summoner into a changeling.
The eidelon is the summoner's war form. As a swift action they transform into or out of the eidelon form. Any weapons or armor become part of the creature unless they have taken the armor and weapon enhancements.
This way you still have the crazy powerful killing machine but if he dies you die.
So..
Summoner = Shapeshifter
That doesn't feel like a druid at all.
As it stands now EVERYONE want's to play the summoner because they are completely over powered. My entire group will all take summoners and the leadership feat. Each player takes a different cohort to make up for the spells they lack. A bard, rogue, cleric, and druid all 2 levels less than the party just there to be skill monkeys and help buff the swarm of pets.
Eh their not as bad as the 3.5 druid was, not by a long shot. You can stop abuse of any class by saying "no" most classes can be abused and some players will always abuse them if you don't say No
SUGGESTION- give the summoner access to ALL summon spells including SUMMON NATURES ALLY. They should be the best, most diverse summoners, in my humble opinion.Thanks for all your time and work Jason.
Actually, that's a pretty neat idea. I'd even say allow the SLA to be Summmon Monster X OR Summon Nature's Ally X, as desired, with each use, as well.
I may playtest this and see if it's overpowered.
Glad you like the idea.
I am going to playtest this in my group as well. Let me know how it goes.
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I like the summoner a lot but it mentions the "transmogrify" spell as a way to change your eidolon on the fly but no other mention. Is this a higher level summoner spel that isn't referenced in the beta or a miss print?
"These choices [evolution points] are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell)."
If this has been touched on earlier I apologize.
I like the summoner a lot but it mentions the "transmogrify" spell as a way to change your eidolon on the fly but no other mention. Is this a higher level summoner spel that isn't referenced in the beta or a miss print?
"These choices [evolution points] are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell)."
If this has been touched on earlier I apologize.
They felt there was no need for the spell for the playtest, so they didn't print it. It will be in the book however.
They felt there was no need for the spell for the playtest, so they didn't print it. It will be in the book however.I like the summoner a lot but it mentions the "transmogrify" spell as a way to change your eidolon on the fly but no other mention. Is this a higher level summoner spel that isn't referenced in the beta or a miss print?
"These choices [evolution points] are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell)."
If this has been touched on earlier I apologize.
Not gonna lie, I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on that spell. The option to re-distribute points in combat is so awesome, especially for alot of summoner concepts.
"Gabumon, lets go!"
"GABUMON DIGIVOLVE TO... GA-Ru-Ru-Mon"
Oh yeah!
I wouldn't get my hopes up that it's a combat capable spell (not without some metamagic at least). It's likely to take at least a minute (same as summoning the eidelon), and may even be required to be cast as part of the summoning.
One reason why I wish they'd put it in, we need to playtest ability to change the eidelon as well if we're going to do a valid playtest.
Another idea is to make the summoner into a changeling.
The eidelon is the summoner's war form. As a swift action they transform into or out of the eidelon form. Any weapons or armor become part of the creature unless they have taken the armor and weapon enhancements.
This way you still have the crazy powerful killing machine but if he dies you die.
As it stands now EVERYONE want's to play the summoner because they are completely over powered. My entire group will all take summoners and the leadership feat. Each player takes a different cohort to make up for the spells they lack. A bard, rogue, cleric, and druid all 2 levels less than the party just there to be skill monkeys and help buff the swarm of pets.
Summoner = Shapeshifer? then create a whole new class called shapeshifter imo.
As far as "EVERYONE" wants to play a summoner because they are OP. I have seen several post including mine where people have chosen shapes that aren't OP because of RP reasons. As far as everyone in a party playing one where's the flavor in that even as an example it is bleh. Imo there are many thing that I think are OP in the monk class, like SR, but as a GM I have the right to make changes I see fit too, or just say NO you can't do this, and all my players understand that and if they argue a valid enough point I may comprimise with them.
Eh, whatever, like was said above, they aren't gonna revamp the entire class at this point in developement anyway, just tweak it.
Awwww but the transforming companion concept is so common and so much fun :(
I'd expect that if you were in a campaign that was going that direction, the GM would come up with a specific spell/monster designs/etc. If I were doing a pokemon/digimon/FF type game, I'd make all the eidelon's ahead of time, and for pokemon have them 'evolve' at certain levels (5, 10 and 15 for example). For digimon, I'd have the forms made, and allow you to change forms at will (but fixed forms). For Final Fantasy type game, I'd have all the eidelon's summonable made ahead of time, and the Summoner would have to make pacts with each before he could summon it. So, say Shiva and Ifrit as 1st level summons that scale up to level 5 before maxing out. Bahamut might be a level 10 summon that scales up to level 20. Exodia might be a level 15 summon that scales up to 20. You could only have one summoned at a time. If it dies, you can't resummon it for <level> days, but can dismiss one summon to bring in any other summon you have as a full round action (but probably have them heal normally (level / day) instead of full at summon).
The Eidolon is a terrible idea open to incredible amounts of abuse. I would drop the entire table. Instead let the Summoner have a mutable familiar.
The summoner uses any of his summon monster abilities and applies the familiar abilities table. The summoned monster does not expire at the end of the spell's duration. Each day the summoner may choose a new form for his familiar.
This actually sounds like it would work nicely.
-James
Thank you,
I would rather have a class with some nice features rather than one that is game breaking.
Another idea is to make the summoner into a changeling.
The eidelon is the summoner's war form. As a swift action they transform into or out of the eidelon form. Any weapons or armor become part of the creature unless they have taken the armor and weapon enhancements.
This way you still have the crazy powerful killing machine but if he dies you die.
As it stands now EVERYONE want's to play the summoner because they are completely over powered. My entire group will all take summoners and the leadership feat. Each player takes a different cohort to make up for the spells they lack. A bard, rogue, cleric, and druid all 2 levels less than the party just there to be skill monkeys and help buff the swarm of pets.
Summoner = Shapeshifer? then create a whole new class called shapeshifter imo.
As far as "EVERYONE" wants to play a summoner because they are OP. I have seen several post including mine where people have chosen shapes that aren't OP because of RP reasons. As far as everyone in a party playing one where's the flavor in that even as an example it is bleh. Imo there are many thing that I think are OP in the monk class, like SR, but as a GM I have the right to make changes I see fit too, or just say NO you can't do this, and all my players understand that and if they argue a valid enough point I may comprimise with them.
Eh, whatever, like was said above, they aren't gonna revamp the entire class at this point in developement anyway, just tweak it.
The level 20 ability is a shapeshifter my thought is to give it to the summoner earlier.
Right now the summoner is playing two characters. One is an over powered ogre/cat combat monster and the other is a mediocer spell caster. The worst part of it is that the over powered killing machine can die once a day with no penalties to the player.
When he hits level 16 he can merge with the pet becoming what my suggestion would make him at level 1. The only difference is you don't get to play both characters.
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I'm not crazy about the idea of completely killing the Eidelon mechanics off, but a few of the guys in my game group have mentioned that the class does seem a bit disjointed between the Eidelon and the Summoning.
Perhaps it could be a class choice feature, similar to how a ranger chooses their nature's bond ability.
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I'm not crazy about the idea of completely killing the Eidelon mechanics off, but a few of the guys in my game group have mentioned that the class does seem a bit disjointed between the Eidelon and the Summoning.
Perhaps it could be a class choice feature, similar to how a ranger chooses their nature's bond ability.
I've been wondering if that might be an option.
why not add summon monster n to the spell list that acts like the normal spell
why not add summon monster n to the spell list that acts like the normal spell
They already have Summon Monster N spells on their spell list, and when used that way, they work as everyone elses.
I'd also, if I had control, add Summon Nature's Ally N to their list at the same levels. I'd also let them spontaneously convert any spell to a Summon spell, but then, I'm not in control. :)
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why not add summon monster n to the spell list that acts like the normal spellThey already have Summon Monster N spells on their spell list, and when used that way, they work as everyone elses.
I'd also, if I had control, add Summon Nature's Ally N to their list at the same levels. I'd also let them spontaneously convert any spell to a Summon spell, but then, I'm not in control. :)
I, too, would like to see Summon Nature's Ally added to their list. I would be happy if they replaced Summon Monster with Summon Nature's Ally on the list. This allows the Summoner to summon everything without increasing their number of spells or having to decide whether or not to take both SM and SNA on their short list of known spells.
The only other change I would like to see is automatically extending any summons the Summoner makes without increase in spell level or number of times per day for the SLA.
2)Those who want to play a summoner who summons, and is a capable summoner.
There are already multiple classes that do that